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Just watched the end of Unimatrix 0, Voyager takes a hit from a torpedo from a tacticle cube which had disabled Voyager's shields from assimilating Tuvok, and it delt about as much damage(which was gone the next scene, IIRC) as a photon torp does.

Welcome to Voyager.

Or it could be the tac cube sucks ass.

Normal cube can take without major damage:
- Fire from a single GCS
- Several seconds of the total power output of a GCS
- Combined fire from a 39 ship Federation fleet

Takes moderate damage from:
- Combined fire from several hundred Federation ships

Destroyed by:
- Combined fire from the remains of several hundred Fed ships concentrated at a specific point

Conclusion: Normal cube > Lots of Federation ships ; requires several hundred ships and specialized intelligence to defeat.


A Borg sphere:
- Is destroyed by a spread of the E-E's q-torps (may have been damaged by cube explosion)
- Has the most pissant planetary bombardment weapons ever (may have been damaged by explosion)
- Is more than a match for Voyager, even with 29c enhancements

Conclusion: Sphere > Voyager ; SCS > Possibly Damaged Sphere


Tactical Cube:
- Weapons fail to seriously damage Voyager, even unshielded
- Requires several hits to destroy Delta Flyer
- Takes damage, including systems damage, from Voyager and renegade sphere
- According to dialog, would have defeated Voyager if the sphere didn't show up
- Voyager + Sphere managed to hold off the T-Cube for a short time


Conclusion: Tactical Cube isn't all it's cracked up to be

Aren't the Tac-Cubes supposed to be smaller? Even so, thats a huge disparity; I would have expected any Borg ship, even a sphere, to easily down Voyager.

Realistically, the Borg should be able to walk all over the Federation as if the latter were nothing.

Voyager pisses on that of course.

Doubtless they would have, but didn't VOY come up with some crazy reason why the Borg never followed up their first cube with more? Like redefining transwarp or something?

Do we know if the FC sphere and the Voyager sphere were the same? IIRC the FC sphere was a great deal smaller.

Who even says the Borg have a standardized ship design at all? Maybe their ships are basically an ad hoc design, made from a few standardized components and a shitload of window dressing.

We saw how easily they could reconfigure the surface of their ship when they were first introduced. Who's to say that every cube or sphere isn't a little different? After all, most people have a roughly similar shape but that doesn't mean they're exactly the same.

Darth Wong wrote:Who even says the Borg have a standardized ship design at all? Maybe their ships are basically an ad hoc design, made from a few standardized components and a shitload of window dressing.

We saw how easily they could reconfigure the surface of their ship when they were first introduced. Who's to say that every cube or sphere isn't a little different? After all, most people have a roughly similar shape but that doesn't mean they're exactly the same.

Actually that would explain all the crazy differences between Borg ships we've seen over the years of Trek. (Other than lazy writers.)

- The cubes in Q Who and BOBW were stated to be identical in dimensions, but if it was the exact same ship or not was unknown. In other words, the Enterprise was unable to determine a difference between the cubes in these two episodes.

- Cube weapons in Q Who: shield-draining tractor beam, cutting laser, anti-sheild pulse/torpedo. According to the bridge crew, their weapons are unfamiliar to the Federation.

- Cube weapons in BoBW: shield-draining tractor beam, depth charges, NDF-style beam (watch the miranda in DS9 opener take a hit), some kind of pulses or torpedos used to take out Earth's pissant defense force.

- Cube power source in BoBW: a bunch of glowing pyramid things; a few can be blown up to simulate the NE blackout effect

- Cube propulsion in Q Who/BoBW: normal warp

- Cubes in Voyager have a different appearance then TNG

- Cubes weapons in VGR: some kind of green beam weapon, some kind of green torpedo ("photonic torpedo" according to Seven)

- Cube propulsion in VGR: almost exclusively transwarp drive; with the exception of Scorpion (they are fucking idiots)

- Cube power source in VGR: according to Seven, a "central power source"

- Drone counts, even among cubes seen in Voyager, vary

Even the drones show some diversity. Different drones have different limb attachments and implants, and even vary in color.

Howedar wrote:Do we know if the FC sphere and the Voyager sphere were the same? IIRC the FC sphere was a great deal smaller.

IIRC, the FC sphere was ~400 meters in diameter, the VOY sphere was ~600 meters in diameter

Ender wrote:

Howedar wrote:Do we know if the FC sphere and the Voyager sphere were the same? IIRC the FC sphere was a great deal smaller.

IIRC, the FC sphere was ~400 meters in diameter, the VOY sphere was ~600 meters in diameter

The diameter of the sphere was undefined in First Contact, but when they recovered pieces of it in "Regeneration" they extrapolated its diameter to be about 600 metres.

Ender wrote:

Howedar wrote:Do we know if the FC sphere and the Voyager sphere were the same? IIRC the FC sphere was a great deal smaller.

IIRC, the FC sphere was ~400 meters in diameter, the VOY sphere was ~600 meters in diameter

Yeah. As DI said, "Regeneration" establishes that the "FC" sphere was 600m wide.

That's actually one of the unsung problems with that episode; based on the width of the sphere's escape port on the cube, it shouldn't have been more than ~410m wide.

Of course, we never firmly established the size of the Queen's cube. It could well've been over 3.04 km/side, so its sphere could've been commensurately larger. I hate to be a me, too-er, but I've long had a thought somewhat similar to Michael's: perhaps Borg ships simply "grow" as they assimilate technology and incorporate new equipment over time.

For a time, I've wondered if smaller spheres actually grow into the big ones and, if it's deemed necessary, that ship could develop into a smaller cube, and so on. That we do actually see several cubes in the 3 km wide range doesn't disallow this; they could simply be the final, or near final stage in a Borg ship's "life cycle."

Back to spheres for just a moment, I've long tried to scale the one we saw in "Endgame." It, and at least two others (tactical sphere in "Drone," another big one in "Child's Play"?) were big enough to swallow VGR with considerable room to spare.

The "Endgame" sphere was so big that, when we saw those fancy torpedoes launched inside it, they travelled toward the screen for a few moments before slamming into the interior. Even if they were accelerating very slowly, that's a pretty big ship--I'd guess well over a kilometer in diameter.

To the topic at hand, yeah, that tactical cube performed rather poorly for what it was supposed to be, described as this heavily-armed target that'd be near suicidal to attack.

Earlier in "U0," we saw that the Borg had attacked a space station. Perhaps the cube had taken heavy damage in that fight and was in the process of regenerating...it wouldn't be the first time a Borg ship looked okay but was known to be in dire shape (sphere in "Dark Frontier," which didn't have a mark on it by the time VGR tried to infiltrate it).

Still, that's purely speculative, and you'd think we'd see some burns or something on all that armor plating, eh?

Another guess: Seven said it was a "class 4 tactical vessel." Perhaps that class denotes a ship which is optimized to fight a specific opponent or group of opponents. If said opponents were individually much weaker than VGR, the cube might not've had time to reconfigure its weaponry appropriately. For instance, a cube configured to battle swarms of much smaller ships might not've constructed large individual weapons emplacements. The tactical cube *did* certainly use far more emitters than your standard cube would.

There's also the possibility that, in spite of the damage and all the time VGR spent out of spacedock, she retained some of the improvements we've seen over the years; e.g., One's tactical enhancements in "Drone," some of Seven's Borg technology and/or the female Q's technique to boost shield output by 10x in "Q and the Grey."

Whodafuck knows. "Forget it, Sean...it's Voyagertown."

Raven wrote: Actually that would explain all the crazy differences between Borg ships we've seen over the years of Trek. (Other than lazy writers.)

It certainly helps!

Btw, before I forget: welcome Raven. I've enjoyed all your posts.

- Cube weapons in BoBW: shield-draining tractor beam, depth charges, NDF-style beam (watch the miranda in DS9 opener take a hit), some kind of pulses or torpedos used to take out Earth's pissant defense force.

Those looked a lot like the disruptor bolts we see them use elsewhere.

The "gravimetric-guided [depth] charges" in "BOBW" might actually be a standard Borg weapon; the ship in "Q Who?" arguably never had a chance to use it.

One does wonder, however, why the "BOBW" ship never used those anti-shield weapons. Maybe they didn't need to? Perhaps that's something the Borg use largely at warp.

I agree with everything else you say save this:

- Cube propulsion in VGR: almost exclusively transwarp drive; with the exception of Scorpion (they are fucking idiots)

Though we did see cubes using warp during "Scorpion," we also learn that they did use transwarp drives. In that episode we're told something of transwarp signatures "5.1 light years away."

Exactly 60 seconds later, the cubes roar past VGR. Off the top of my head that's somewhere around a million c, so the signatures they detected were no doubt accurate.

But why they didn't use transwarp when they were so desperate to get VGR's reprogrammed nanoprobes, I don't know. That WAS stupid.

seanrobertson wrote:Of course, we never firmly established the size of the Queen's cube. It could well've been over 3.04 km/side, so its sphere could've been commensurately larger. I hate to be a me, too-er, but I've long had a thought somewhat similar to Michael's: perhaps Borg ships simply "grow" as they assimilate technology and incorporate new equipment over time.

The Borgified shuttle from Regeneration was said to have increased its mass over the course of the episode, so it seems reasonable to assume that other Borg ships can do the same.

May a Cube gets stronger as it assimilates more technology. So TNG Cubes were veteran ships that had seen a lot of action while Voyger Cubes were newly commisioned ones. Just a wild thought not a theory though.

anarchistbunny wrote:Just watched the end of Unimatrix 0, Voyager takes a hit from a torpedo from a tacticle cube which had disabled Voyager's shields from assimilating Tuvok, and it delt about as much damage(which was gone the next scene, IIRC) as a photon torp does.

In my opinion, this evidence doesn't prove the Tactical cube is any weaker than any other Borg cube. This would seem to prove instead that Borg torpedoes, like Federation ones, have a highly variable yield. Without a doubt the tactical cube was merely trying to disable and/or discourage Voyager from continuing the attack.

Let's not forget, the Borg Queen has repeated stated that Voyager was a vessel she "left alone" because Seven of Nine was one of her favorite pet projects apparently. (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier", "Endgme") Destroying Voyager would have killed Seven of Nine.

A full assault by the tactical cube in my opinion would have obliterated Voyager very quickly. Let's not forget in STVOY "Scorpion", the first cube Voyager got the attention of disabled Voyager's shields in a single hit by their tractor beam. They then beamed Janeway off the bridge and proceeded to drag voyager around like a dog on a leash.

Further episodes established Borg technolgy had upgraded Voyager's systems, along with other improvements they got from other alien technologies and such. As SeanRobertson pointed out, in SYVOY "Q and the Grey", the Q showed Voyager how to increase the effectiveness of their shields by a factor of ten. This is just one improvement we're aware of, along with the "Borg shielding" stated in this same episode Voyager was using.

All the bitching about Borg "weakness" in Voyager simply ignores how the Borg bitchslapped Voyager in their first real encounter, and afterwards, encountered a heavily upgraded Voyager(includng Borg technology and a drone with twenty years experience helping them!), while also having a directive not to destroy the ship because of Seven of Nine!

Robert Walper wrote:
In my opinion, this evidence doesn't prove the Tactical cube is any weaker than any other Borg cube. This would seem to prove instead that Borg torpedoes, like Federation ones, have a highly variable yield. Without a doubt the tactical cube was merely trying to disable and/or discourage Voyager from continuing the attack.

Let's not forget, the Borg Queen has repeated stated that Voyager was a vessel she "left alone" because Seven of Nine was one of her favorite pet projects apparently. (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier", "Endgme") Destroying Voyager would have killed Seven of Nine.

They could have done better than that.
If not "blow Voyager into little pieces", why not "snag Voyager with a tractor beam and assimilate it".

Methinks the Queen was in league with Janeway all alone to prolong the suffering of Trek fans. (No more ship = no more show)

Let's not forget in STVOY "Scorpion", the first cube Voyager got the attention of disabled Voyager's shields in a single hit by their tractor beam. They then beamed Janeway off the bridge and proceeded to drag voyager around like a dog on a leash.

Yes, and that shows us what a real cube can/should be able to do.

Further episodes established Borg technolgy had upgraded Voyager's systems, along with other improvements they got from other alien technologies and such. As SeanRobertson pointed out, in SYVOY "Q and the Grey", the Q showed Voyager how to increase the effectiveness of their shields by a factor of ten. This is just one improvement we're aware of, along with the "Borg shielding" stated in this same episode Voyager was using.

Scorpion/The Gift - Janeway ordered those systems removed.

Q and the Grey - With all the technobabble involved in the process, I doubt this is a permanent change. B'Ellana even says she doesn't understand how it works, and feared they'd blow themselves to pieces attempting it.

Drone - Even after the improvements, they are completely outclassed by the Sphere.

All the bitching about Borg "weakness" in Voyager simply ignores how the Borg bitchslapped Voyager in their first real encounter, and afterwards, encountered a heavily upgraded Voyager(includng Borg technology and a drone with twenty years experience helping them!), while also having a directive not to destroy the ship because of Seven of Nine!

And yet she is unable to make transwarp work.

A stranded scout ship on the other side of the galaxy can do better than 1) a collective of trillions over working over millenia and (Borg) 2) the entire military-industrial complex of an interstellar organization (Federation)?

Facts:
- Voyager is smacked down by the cube in Scorpion
- Voyager is owned by the Sphere in Drone, even after its upgrades.
- Voyager is able to take hits from, as well as do damage to the tactical cube, even after losing shields
- The Delta Flyer withstands several hits from the T-Cube

Conclusion:
The tactical cube encountered in Unimatrix Zero is weaker than normal cubes previously encountered by Voyager and the Federation.

Even if the tactical cube was intentionally holding back on Voyager, it was far less succesful than previous cubes...
- In BOBW, the cube can handle the E-D's entire power output for several seconds without any damage
- In Q Who?, need I point out the cutting laser?
- In nearly all TNG Borg encounters, have we forgotten the tractor beam?

Also note, there should be nothing stopping that t-cube from blowing the rogue sphere out of space, if it was able to.
Could the fact that they didn't suggest that they couldn't?

So, does all of this mean the One-Hit Wonder principle relating to the use of advanced tech just goes out the door?

I mean, with all of these improvements to Voyager you're all talking about.......

Just think of it this way. The Borg in TNG were pretty much your scary unstoppable race. They didn't just kill you, they turned you into a mindless zombie.

The Borg after that became Voyager's way of gaining ratings. Under B & B, they became pussified.

Superman wrote:Just think of it this way. The Borg in TNG were pretty much your scary unstoppable race. They didn't just kill you, they turned you into a mindless zombie.

The Borg after that became Voyager's way of gaining ratings. Under B & B, they became pussified.

I agree. The Borg coolness factor reached an all time low after they appeared on Voyger.

anarchistbunny wrote:Just watched the end of Unimatrix 0, Voyager takes a hit from a torpedo from a tacticle cube which had disabled Voyager's shields from assimilating Tuvok, and it delt about as much damage(which was gone the next scene, IIRC) as a photon torp does.

Ahh, the frequent curse of anybody who has followed Voyager for any length of time. They gradually got more and more pussy and more and more like the generic hive-mind bug aliens that it was astonishing that the Federation even lost at Wolf 359 after how pussified the Borg were made out to be by Voyager.

Raven wrote:

Robert Walper wrote: Let's not forget, the Borg Queen has repeated stated that Voyager was a vessel she "left alone" because Seven of Nine was one of her favorite pet projects apparently. (ref STVOY "Dark Frontier", "Endgme") Destroying Voyager would have killed Seven of Nine.

They could have done better than that.
If not "blow Voyager into little pieces", why not "snag Voyager with a tractor beam and assimilate it".

Such an action is silly to say the least. Assimilating Voyager and it's crew would be by any definition destroying it. Voyager no longer exists, but a newly assimilated Borg vessel manned by Borg drones. Is Seven going to live on that now? The Borg Queen's obession with Seven of Nine would seem to emcompass Voyager's general well being since that is where she lives and evolves.

Methinks the Queen was in league with Janeway all alone to prolong the suffering of Trek fans. (No more ship = no more show)

I actually found many Voyager episodes to be entertaining myself. Alas, Star Trek is suffering from the "quantity is better than quality" fault.

Let's not forget in STVOY "Scorpion", the first cube Voyager got the attention of disabled Voyager's shields in a single hit by their tractor beam. They then beamed Janeway off the bridge and proceeded to drag voyager around like a dog on a leash.

Yes, and that shows us what a real cube can/should be able to do.

Huh? The cube did it, therefore it can do it. Since we know what a cube can do to Voyager, we must conclude there are other factors to consider regarding Voyager's future encounters with Borg vessels. I've listed several factors already, which should not be simply ignored.

Further episodes established Borg technolgy had upgraded Voyager's systems, along with other improvements they got from other alien technologies and such. As SeanRobertson pointed out, in SYVOY "Q and the Grey", the Q showed Voyager how to increase the effectiveness of their shields by a factor of ten. This is just one improvement we're aware of, along with the "Borg shielding" stated in this same episode Voyager was using.

Scorpion/The Gift - Janeway ordered those systems removed.

Some of those systems were removed. Commander Chacotay told Janeway that some of the Borg technology was improving ship performance and capabilities, which she then agreed to leave in place. I don't think shield improvements is something even Janeway is going to have removed, especially when in and around hostiles forces throughout their trip back home.

Q and the Grey - With all the technobabble involved in the process, I doubt this is a permanent change. B'Ellana even says she doesn't understand how it works, and feared they'd blow themselves to pieces attempting it.

Blow themselves to piece entering a solar mass supernova(note: they didn't blow themselves to pieces, therefore it worked). I recall no serious complications of the shield upgrade itself that would prevent them from utilizing this upgrade, and we can even reasonable speculate that the engineering crew fixed any potential minor problems. The Q showed Voyager how to use it's existing technology to upgrade the shields; the Q didn't just make it happen.

Drone - Even after the improvements, they are completely outclassed by the Sphere.

Thus hinting a tactical cube should be able to dust Voyager pretty easy if not held in check by a Queen directive. The problem is people's inability to accept the fact that Voyager is a special case ship, particularily with Seven of Nine being aboard her(including during the assault on the Tactical cube).

All the bitching about Borg "weakness" in Voyager simply ignores how the Borg bitchslapped Voyager in their first real encounter, and afterwards, encountered a heavily upgraded Voyager(includng Borg technology and a drone with twenty years experience helping them!), while also having a directive not to destroy the ship because of Seven of Nine!

And yet she is unable to make transwarp work.

This point is so irrelevent I'm tempted to flame you...but I won't.

A stranded scout ship on the other side of the galaxy can do better than 1) a collective of trillions over working over millenia and (Borg)

Present your evidence and arguement for that case.

2) the entire military-industrial complex of an interstellar organization (Federation)?

Facts:
- Voyager is smacked down by the cube in Scorpion

Agreed.

- Voyager is owned by the Sphere in Drone, even after its upgrades.

Also agreed. But what makes you think they would have seriously disabled or damaged Voyager. They were after One, a drone of technological capabilities that grabbed their interest.

- Voyager is able to take hits from, as well as do damage to the tactical cube, even after losing shields
- The Delta Flyer withstands several hits from the T-Cube

Conclusion:
The tactical cube encountered in Unimatrix Zero is weaker than normal cubes previously encountered by Voyager and the Federation.

I disagree.

Even if the tactical cube was intentionally holding back on Voyager, it was far less succesful than previous cubes...
- In BOBW, the cube can handle the E-D's entire power output for several seconds without any damage
- In Q Who?, need I point out the cutting laser?
- In nearly all TNG Borg encounters, have we forgotten the tractor beam?

Also note, there should be nothing stopping that t-cube from blowing the rogue sphere out of space, if it was able to.

Borg adaptation was combating Borg adaptation. And the Sphere was taking very noticeable damage

Could the fact that they didn't suggest that they couldn't?

I'd conceed the tactical cube probably couldn't destroy the sphere in the amount of time allocated.

Robert Walper wrote:
Such an action is silly to say the least. Assimilating Voyager and it's crew would be by any definition destroying it. Voyager no longer exists, but a newly assimilated Borg vessel manned by Borg drones. Is Seven going to live on that now? The Borg Queen's obession with Seven of Nine would seem to emcompass Voyager's general well being since that is where she lives and evolves.

This may be true, but prove it with a quote.
I agree, this may be the only reason, Voyager survived that many encounters with the Borg.

Huh? The cube did it, therefore it can do it. Since we know what a cube can do to Voyager, we must conclude there are other factors to consider regarding Voyager's future encounters with Borg vessels. I've listed several factors already, which should not be simply ignored.

This assumes that a Tactical cube is equal or similar power to a normal cube.
We see what a normal cube can do. We see that the tactical cube performs much more poorly.

Further episodes established Borg technolgy had upgraded Voyager's systems, along with other improvements they got from other alien technologies and such. As SeanRobertson pointed out, in SYVOY "Q and the Grey", the Q showed Voyager how to increase the effectiveness of their shields by a factor of ten. This is just one improvement we're aware of, along with the "Borg shielding" stated in this same episode Voyager was using.

Q and the Grey wrote: Female Q: "Take warp drive offline. Then remodulate the shields to emit a beta-tachyon pulse and prepare to emit a series of focussed anti-proton beams to the shield bubble."

Chakotay: "B'Elanna, does this make any sense to you at all?"

Torres: "I'd be lying if I said I understood it completely, but if she's thinking what I think she's thinking we should increase power to the shields by a factor of ten. Of course, that's assuming the shield bubble doesn't ignite and burn us all to a crisp."

A modification that requires various technobabble in addition to taking warp drive off line, that B'Elanna doesn't understand, and has a chance of frying the ship.
Somehow I don't see them using this one again.

Some of those systems were removed. Commander Chacotay told Janeway that some of the Borg technology was improving ship performance and capabilities, which she then agreed to leave in place. I don't think shield improvements is something even Janeway is going to have removed, especially when in and around hostiles forces throughout their trip back home.

Chakotay: "... B'Elanna notes that the power couplings on Deck 8 work much better with the Borg improvements."

Janeway: "Leave them."

Blow themselves to piece entering a solar mass supernova(note: they didn't blow themselves to pieces, therefore it worked). I recall no serious complications of the shield upgrade itself that would prevent them from utilizing this upgrade, and we can even reasonable speculate that the engineering crew fixed any potential minor problems. The Q showed Voyager how to use it's existing technology to upgrade the shields; the Q didn't just make it happen.

See above.
Recall - did the Enterprise keep any of it's improvements from "The Nth Degree"?

Thus hinting a tactical cube should be able to dust Voyager pretty easy if not held in check by a Queen directive. The problem is people's inability to accept the fact that Voyager is a special case ship, particularily with Seven of Nine being aboard her(including during the assault on the Tactical cube).

OR indicating that the Tactical cube is not as strong as a normal cube, and not that much stronger than a sphere.

Sphere battle: they had ONE to help them, in addition to Seven
Tac-cube battle: they had just Seven, and the Borg had Tuvok, Janeway and B'Elanna

This point is so irrelevent I'm tempted to flame you...but I won't.

Seven of Nine could not make transwarp work on Voyager, despite her Borg experiences, despite the fact that the Federation is kinda close to achieving it, despite the fact that quantum slipstream (a technology Seven stated to be similar to transwarp) could be made to work.

Having Seven does not magically confer Borg technology to Voyager. They are still limited by the theoretical scientific principles completely unknown to the Voyager crew, and more importantly, limited to how Voyager's engineering experience and resources can apply Seven's knowledge.

A stranded scout ship on the other side of the galaxy can do better than 1) a collective of trillions over working over millenia and (Borg)

Present your evidence and arguement for that case.

2) the entire military-industrial complex of an interstellar organization (Federation)?

Facts:
- Voyager is smacked down by the cube in Scorpion

Agreed.

What I'm talking about here is:
You think that simply having Seven on board magically confers Voyager the ability to defeat trillions of drones just like Seven, who have existed for thousands of years?
Recall, that even with the help of One, a 29th century Borg that can singlehandedly destroy a sphere and survive in space in conditions that can destroy a sphere, Voyager was still getting beat down by that sphere!

If the United States Navy went to war with the Spanish Armada, having one U.S. officer on board to help out is NOT going to be much help.

One wrote: Your technology is limited. I cannot enhance it further.

Also agreed. But what makes you think they would have seriously disabled or damaged Voyager. They were after One, a drone of technological capabilities that grabbed their interest.

Red herring. They were after One, and they were attacking Voyager to get to him. They were defeating Voyager until One decides to take out the sphere himself.
The only point I'm trying to make is that the Sphere did better against Voyager than the tactical cube.

- Voyager is able to take hits from, as well as do damage to the tactical cube, even after losing shields
- The Delta Flyer withstands several hits from the T-Cube

Conclusion:
The tactical cube encountered in Unimatrix Zero is weaker than normal cubes previously encountered by Voyager and the Federation.

I disagree.

Your disagreement stems from 1) You think Voyager was heavily upgraded sufficiently to deal with Borg ships, and 2) the Queen was holding them back.
1) is not the case, so your argument rests on 2).

The question then is:
"Is the reason the tactical cube did so poorly against Voyager because of it's inferior abilities, or because the Queen held it back?"

Note that even if the Queen didn't want to destroy Voyager, there are other options available to her, including: tractor beam, shield draining weapon, cutting laser.
(a tactical cube may not have all those toys, but it should at least have the tractor beam, something we've seen on all Borg ships)

Borg adaptation was combating Borg adaptation. And the Sphere was taking very noticeable damage

Both ships were taking damage.
This hints that the tactical cube is not hugely superior to a sphere.

Raven wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:
Such an action is silly to say the least. Assimilating Voyager and it's crew would be by any definition destroying it. Voyager no longer exists, but a newly assimilated Borg vessel manned by Borg drones. Is Seven going to live on that now? The Borg Queen's obession with Seven of Nine would seem to emcompass Voyager's general well being since that is where she lives and evolves.

This may be true, but prove it with a quote.

STVOY "Dark Frontier"

Conversation in reference to Seven's presence aboard Voyager before being taken by the Borg.(note: probably not accurate word for word, but close)

Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place."
Seven: "Explain."
Borg Queen: "Did you really think we would release you so easily?"

Thus establishing Seven being left aboard Voyager was a choice on the Borg's part.

STVOY "Endgame"

Scene with Borg Queen in Unicomplex:

Borg "voice": "VESSEL IDENTIFIED. U.S.S VOYAGER. WE WILL PURSUE AND ASSIMILATE."
Queen: "No. They have not compromised our security. Let the vessel proceed for now. I'll keep an eye on them."

Irrefuteable proof the Borg Queen intervenes on voyager's behalf. Is it so hard to believe then Borg vessels hold their fire in check against Voyager when forced to engage them? Or are we to expect Borg vessels to simply sit there and do nothing, or try and discourage the attack, but not outright destroy Voyager?

Again, conversation between Seven and the Borg Queen:

Borg Queen: "You've always been my favorite, Seven. Despite their many imperfections, I know how much you care for the Voyager crew. So I've left them alone."

Now do we not only have objective evidence as I stated earlier, we have the Borg Queen admitting she intervenes on Voyager's behalf.

From my perspective, it's a irrefutable fact that the Queen has been keeping the Collective in check against Voyager, even when forced to engage Voyager in combat(thus explaining examples of "low" firepower).

Huh? The cube did it, therefore it can do it. Since we know what a cube can do to Voyager, we must conclude there are other factors to consider regarding Voyager's future encounters with Borg vessels. I've listed several factors already, which should not be simply ignored.

This assumes that a Tactical cube is equal or similar power to a normal cube.

An assumption that I think is perfectly valid.

We see what a normal cube can do. We see that the tactical cube performs much more poorly.

Because the Borg Collective is being held in check by the Borg Queen. We have irrefutable proof of this in the form of examples and statements by the Queen herself.

Q and the Grey wrote: Female Q: "Take warp drive offline. Then remodulate the shields to emit a beta-tachyon pulse and prepare to emit a series of focussed anti-proton beams to the shield bubble."

Chakotay: "B'Elanna, does this make any sense to you at all?"

Torres: "I'd be lying if I said I understood it completely, but if she's thinking what I think she's thinking we should increase power to the shields by a factor of ten. Of course, that's assuming the shield bubble doesn't ignite and burn us all to a crisp."

A modification that requires various technobabble in addition to taking warp drive off line, that B'Elanna doesn't understand, and has a chance of frying the ship.
Somehow I don't see them using this one again.

It didn't blow the ship up, in fact it worked perfectly. Therefore there's no reason to assume they couldn't do it again if necessary, especially with time to study the method further. Preparing to go against Borg vessels would imply the Voyager ship being prepard for such encounters...when they expect them.

Recall - did the Enterprise keep any of it's improvements from "The Nth Degree"?

Irrelevent. If my neighbor throws out a computer upgrade, are we then to assume I will do the same thing?

Your Chakotay example merely proves that Voyager did keep Borg upgrades. Are we going to assume those are the only ones they kept simply because he didn't bring up others? What if they kept alot of the technolgoy for further study, for future implemetation?(more on that later)

Thus hinting a tactical cube should be able to dust Voyager pretty easy if not held in check by a Queen directive. The problem is people's inability to accept the fact that Voyager is a special case ship, particularily with Seven of Nine being aboard her(including during the assault on the Tactical cube).

OR indicating that the Tactical cube is not as strong as a normal cube, and not that much stronger than a sphere.

Tactical Cube and sphere comparisons are irrelevent unless you can provide evidence a sphere would do worse against a typically non-armered cube.

As to Voyager, I put forth evidence I think is irrefutable that voyager is being treated as a special case by the Borg Queen to protect Seven of Nine.

Sphere battle: they had ONE to help them, in addition to Seven
Tac-cube battle: they had just Seven, and the Borg had Tuvok, Janeway and B'Elanna

Did Voyager have it's Borg shielding active during that sphere conflict? No evidence that it did. But Voyager did during the Tactical cube encounter. Quote: "Borg shielding is offline!"

Interestingly enough, when their Borg shielding is goes offline, that's when they receive hull damage and a ruptured nacelle and have to pull out of the conflict.

Seven of Nine could not make transwarp work on Voyager, despite her Borg experiences, despite the fact that the Federation is kinda close to achieving it, despite the fact that quantum slipstream (a technology Seven stated to be similar to transwarp) could be made to work.

Thus one failure on Seven' part means any Borg technology she would try to implement must fail, eh? Where the heck did these "Borg shields" come from against the Tactical cube then?

Having Seven does not magically confer Borg technology to Voyager.

Of course not. Examples like your quote proving Voyager kept certain upgrades and the fact Voyager used "Borg shielding" agains the Tactical cube does however.

They are still limited by the theoretical scientific principles completely unknown to the Voyager crew, and more importantly, limited to how Voyager's engineering experience and resources can apply Seven's knowledge.

They can apply Borg shielding technology. I have not implied transwarp was a technology that helped Voyager against the Borg or that they have effectively used it. Therefore it discussion(transwarp)is a Red Herring.

What I'm talking about here is:
You think that simply having Seven on board magically confers Voyager the ability to defeat trillions of drones just like Seven, who have existed for thousands of years?

No, having Seven onboard gives the Borg Queen a reason to keep the Borg Collective in check against Voyager. We have irrefutable proof she does this. To then expand this to the idea Borg vessels may hold their fire against Voyager is not exactly a leap of logic in my opinion.

Recall, that even with the help of One, a 29th century Borg that can singlehandedly destroy a sphere and survive in space in conditions that can destroy a sphere, Voyager was still getting beat down by that sphere!

Undoubtably it wasn't holding back it's fire quite as much as the Tactical cube was. After all, they had a very tempting target t oacquire, One himself. Notice they didn't destroy Voyager, simply brough down her shields and weapon systems. And I heard of no mention of Borg shielding being active, assuming they even had it implemented at this point(took place before the Tactical cube encounter...what a coincidence).

If the United States Navy went to war with the Spanish Armada, having one U.S. officer on board to help out is NOT going to be much help.

Unless they don't want to kill the officer who's aboard one of those ships. Think they pull their punches and firepower against that ship pehaps?

Also agreed. But what makes you think they would have seriously disabled or damaged Voyager. They were after One, a drone of technological capabilities that grabbed their interest.

Red herring. They were after One, and they were attacking Voyager to get to him. They were defeating Voyager until One decides to take out the sphere himself.
The only point I'm trying to make is that the Sphere did better against Voyager than the tactical cube.
[/quote]

But did Voyager have it's Borg shielding active at that point? Did they even have the Borg shielding at that point, which took place before the Tactical cube encounter? It would seem not, and fits the facts perfectly.

- The Delta Flyer withstands several hits from the T-Cube

The Delta flyer also employs Borg technology. When the Voyager crew builds it, they specifically mention this.

Conclusion:
The tactical cube encountered in Unimatrix Zero is weaker than normal cubes previously encountered by Voyager and the Federation.

I disagree.

Your disagreement stems from 1) You think Voyager was heavily upgraded sufficiently to deal with Borg ships,

Correction. Fact. They at lest had Borg shielding against the Tactical cube, but apparently not against the sphere which was an earlier incident. I don't suppose that would be a reason to implement it? Because even a sphere kicks their ass if it really tries?

and 2) the Queen was holding them back.
1) is not the case, so your argument rests on 2).

The question then is:
"Is the reason the tactical cube did so poorly against Voyager because of it's inferior abilities, or because the Queen held it back?"

Without a doubt the Queen was holding it back, she even destroyed it rather than continue engaging Voyager and the sphere, despite the vessel not appearing to be that damaged. Plus Voyager had Borg shielding, a upgrade with Borg technology whether you accept that or not.

Note that even if the Queen didn't want to destroy Voyager, there are other options available to her, including: tractor beam, shield draining weapon, cutting laser.

Did I mention the Borg shielding Voyager employed? One of the upgrades I've been ranting about for awhile now?

What if Borg shielding is an effective defense against their own weapon systems?

(a tactical cube may not have all those toys, but it should at least have the tractor beam, something we've seen on all Borg ships)

Up one response and repeat.

Borg adaptation was combating Borg adaptation. And the Sphere was taking very noticeable damage

Both ships were taking damage.
This hints that the tactical cube is not hugely superior to a sphere.

Again, irrelevent since you don't know the comparison value of a sphere against a typical "non-armored" cube. Must we automatically assume it would do better? Perhaps spheres are compact, powerful Borg ships, even compared to Borg cubes(which are mostly empty space). One sphere withstood an attack by 18+ Federation vessels in STVOY "Endgme". Not bad considering it's only a fraction of the size of a cube.

Raven wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:
Such an action is silly to say the least. Assimilating Voyager and it's crew would be by any definition destroying it. Voyager no longer exists, but a newly assimilated Borg vessel manned by Borg drones. Is Seven going to live on that now? The Borg Queen's obession with Seven of Nine would seem to emcompass Voyager's general well being since that is where she lives and evolves.

This may be true, but prove it with a quote.

STVOY "Dark Frontier"

Conversation in reference to Seven's presence aboard Voyager before being taken by the Borg.(note: probably not accurate word for word, but close)

Borg Queen: "That is why we put you there in the first place."
Seven: "Explain."
Borg Queen: "Did you really think we would release you so easily?"

Thus establishing Seven being left aboard Voyager was a choice on the Borg's part.

STVOY "Endgame"

Scene with Borg Queen in Unicomplex:

Borg "voice": "VESSEL IDENTIFIED. U.S.S VOYAGER. WE WILL PURSUE AND ASSIMILATE."
Queen: "No. They have not compromised our security. Let the vessel proceed for now. I'll keep an eye on them."

Irrefuteable proof the Borg Queen intervenes on voyager's behalf. Is it so hard to believe then Borg vessels hold their fire in check against Voyager when forced to engage them? Or are we to expect Borg vessels to simply sit there and do nothing, or try and discourage the attack, but not outright destroy Voyager?

Again, conversation between Seven and the Borg Queen:

Borg Queen: "You've always been my favorite, Seven. Despite their many imperfections, I know how much you care for the Voyager crew. So I've left them alone."

Now do we not only have objective evidence as I stated earlier, we have the Borg Queen admitting she intervenes on Voyager's behalf.

From my perspective, it's a irrefutable fact that the Queen has been keeping the Collective in check against Voyager, even when forced to engage Voyager in combat(thus explaining examples of "low" firepower).

Huh? The cube did it, therefore it can do it. Since we know what a cube can do to Voyager, we must conclude there are other factors to consider regarding Voyager's future encounters with Borg vessels. I've listed several factors already, which should not be simply ignored.

This assumes that a Tactical cube is equal or similar power to a normal cube.

An assumption that I think is perfectly valid.

We see what a normal cube can do. We see that the tactical cube performs much more poorly.

Because the Borg Collective is being held in check by the Borg Queen. We have irrefutable proof of this in the form of examples and statements by the Queen herself.

Q and the Grey wrote: Female Q: "Take warp drive offline. Then remodulate the shields to emit a beta-tachyon pulse and prepare to emit a series of focussed anti-proton beams to the shield bubble."

Chakotay: "B'Elanna, does this make any sense to you at all?"

Torres: "I'd be lying if I said I understood it completely, but if she's thinking what I think she's thinking we should increase power to the shields by a factor of ten. Of course, that's assuming the shield bubble doesn't ignite and burn us all to a crisp."

A modification that requires various technobabble in addition to taking warp drive off line, that B'Elanna doesn't understand, and has a chance of frying the ship.
Somehow I don't see them using this one again.

It didn't blow the ship up, in fact it worked perfectly. Therefore there's no reason to assume they couldn't do it again if necessary, especially with time to study the method further. Preparing to go against Borg vessels would imply the Voyager ship being prepard for such encounters...when they expect them.

Recall - did the Enterprise keep any of it's improvements from "The Nth Degree"?

Irrelevent. If my neighbor throws out a computer upgrade, are we then to assume I will do the same thing?

Your Chakotay example merely proves that Voyager did keep Borg upgrades. Are we going to assume those are the only ones they kept simply because he didn't bring up others? What if they kept alot of the technolgoy for further study, for future implemetation?(more on that later)

Thus hinting a tactical cube should be able to dust Voyager pretty easy if not held in check by a Queen directive. The problem is people's inability to accept the fact that Voyager is a special case ship, particularily with Seven of Nine being aboard her(including during the assault on the Tactical cube).

OR indicating that the Tactical cube is not as strong as a normal cube, and not that much stronger than a sphere.

Tactical Cube and sphere comparisons are irrelevent unless you can provide evidence a sphere would do worse against a typically non-armered cube.

As to Voyager, I put forth evidence I think is irrefutable that voyager is being treated as a special case by the Borg Queen to protect Seven of Nine.

Sphere battle: they had ONE to help them, in addition to Seven
Tac-cube battle: they had just Seven, and the Borg had Tuvok, Janeway and B'Elanna

Did Voyager have it's Borg shielding active during that sphere conflict? No evidence that it did. But Voyager did during the Tactical cube encounter. Quote: "Borg shielding is offline!"

Interestingly enough, when their Borg shielding is goes offline, that's when they receive hull damage and a ruptured nacelle and have to pull out of the conflict.

Seven of Nine could not make transwarp work on Voyager, despite her Borg experiences, despite the fact that the Federation is kinda close to achieving it, despite the fact that quantum slipstream (a technology Seven stated to be similar to transwarp) could be made to work.

Thus one failure on Seven' part means any Borg technology she would try to implement must fail, eh? Where the heck did these "Borg shields" come from against the Tactical cube then?

Having Seven does not magically confer Borg technology to Voyager.

Of course not. Examples like your quote proving Voyager kept certain upgrades and the fact Voyager used "Borg shielding" agains the Tactical cube does however.

They are still limited by the theoretical scientific principles completely unknown to the Voyager crew, and more importantly, limited to how Voyager's engineering experience and resources can apply Seven's knowledge.

They can apply Borg shielding technology. I have not implied transwarp was a technology that helped Voyager against the Borg or that they have effectively used it. Therefore it discussion(transwarp)is a Red Herring.

What I'm talking about here is:
You think that simply having Seven on board magically confers Voyager the ability to defeat trillions of drones just like Seven, who have existed for thousands of years?

No, having Seven onboard gives the Borg Queen a reason to keep the Borg Collective in check against Voyager. We have irrefutable proof she does this. To then expand this to the idea Borg vessels may hold their fire against Voyager is not exactly a leap of logic in my opinion.

Recall, that even with the help of One, a 29th century Borg that can singlehandedly destroy a sphere and survive in space in conditions that can destroy a sphere, Voyager was still getting beat down by that sphere!

Undoubtably it wasn't holding back it's fire quite as much as the Tactical cube was. After all, they had a very tempting target t oacquire, One himself. Notice they didn't destroy Voyager, simply brough down her shields and weapon systems. And I heard of no mention of Borg shielding being active, assuming they even had it implemented at this point(took place before the Tactical cube encounter...what a coincidence).

If the United States Navy went to war with the Spanish Armada, having one U.S. officer on board to help out is NOT going to be much help.

Unless they don't want to kill the officer who's aboard one of those ships. Think they pull their punches and firepower against that ship pehaps?

Also agreed. But what makes you think they would have seriously disabled or damaged Voyager. They were after One, a drone of technological capabilities that grabbed their interest.

Red herring. They were after One, and they were attacking Voyager to get to him. They were defeating Voyager until One decides to take out the sphere himself.
The only point I'm trying to make is that the Sphere did better against Voyager than the tactical cube.
[/quote]

But did Voyager have it's Borg shielding active at that point? Did they even have the Borg shielding at that point, which took place before the Tactical cube encounter? It would seem not, and fits the facts perfectly.

- The Delta Flyer withstands several hits from the T-Cube

The Delta flyer also employs Borg technology. When the Voyager crew builds it, they specifically mention this.

Conclusion:
The tactical cube encountered in Unimatrix Zero is weaker than normal cubes previously encountered by Voyager and the Federation.

I disagree.

Your disagreement stems from 1) You think Voyager was heavily upgraded sufficiently to deal with Borg ships,

Correction. Fact. They at lest had Borg shielding against the Tactical cube, but apparently not against the sphere which was an earlier incident. I don't suppose that would be a reason to implement it? Because even a sphere kicks their ass if it really tries?

and 2) the Queen was holding them back.
1) is not the case, so your argument rests on 2).

The question then is:
"Is the reason the tactical cube did so poorly against Voyager because of it's inferior abilities, or because the Queen held it back?"

Without a doubt the Queen was holding it back, she even destroyed it rather than continue engaging Voyager and the sphere, despite the vessel not appearing to be that damaged. Plus Voyager had Borg shielding, a upgrade with Borg technology whether you accept that or not.

Note that even if the Queen didn't want to destroy Voyager, there are other options available to her, including: tractor beam, shield draining weapon, cutting laser.

Did I mention the Borg shielding Voyager employed? One of the upgrades I've been ranting about for awhile now?

What if Borg shielding is an effective defense against their own weapon systems?

(a tactical cube may not have all those toys, but it should at least have the tractor beam, something we've seen on all Borg ships)

Up one response and repeat.

Borg adaptation was combating Borg adaptation. And the Sphere was taking very noticeable damage

Both ships were taking damage.
This hints that the tactical cube is not hugely superior to a sphere.

Again, irrelevent since you don't know the comparison value of a sphere against a typical "non-armored" cube. Must we automatically assume it would do better? Perhaps spheres are compact, powerful Borg ships, even compared to Borg cubes(which are mostly empty space). One sphere withstood an attack by 18+ Federation vessels in STVOY "Endgme". Not bad considering it's only a fraction of the size of a cube.