StarDestroyer.Net BBS

In the Voyger episode "Dreadnaught" we learn that the Cardassian Dreadnaught's armament included Quantum torpedoes. This raises several questions.

Quantum torpedoes are supposed to be the most advanced type of conventional torpedoes available. Only the Federation has this technology. So how did the Cardassians find Quantum torpedoes ?

Janeway later decided to arm Voyger with Quantum torpedoes captured from the Dreadnaught. But if Voyger can fire quantum torpedoes why were not they using them in the first place ? If regular starfleet vessels besides Sovergeins and Defiants are compatible with Quantum torpedoes why does Starfleet bother using regular Photons ?

I know Quantums may be expensive but I think it would have been a good idea to keep a few Quantums on every Federation starship for emergency situations where maximum firepower is needed.

Why? The Quantum torps don't seem to be any more powerful than a regular torp. As Kynes said, the only difference seems to be its set to "blue"

Lord Poe wrote:Why? The Quantum torps don't seem to be any more powerful than a regular torp. As Kynes said, the only difference seems to be its set to "blue"

Well in First Contact the Enterprise-E blew up a Borg sphere with just three Quantums torpedoes. They must be very powerful to do that to a Borg ship.

Hasn't it been stated in on-screen dialogue before that quantum torpedoes are more powerful than photon torpedoes?

As for how quantum torpedoes got into Dreadnaught, maybe the Maquis stole them from the Federation?

evilcat4000 wrote:In the Voyger episode "Dreadnaught" we learn that the Cardassian Dreadnaught's armament included Quantum torpedoes. This raises several questions.

Quantum torpedoes are supposed to be the most advanced type of conventional torpedoes available. Only the Federation has this technology. So how did the Cardassians find Quantum torpedoes ?

Janeway later decided to arm Voyger with Quantum torpedoes captured from the Dreadnaught. But if Voyger can fire quantum torpedoes why were not they using them in the first place ? If regular starfleet vessels besides Sovergeins and Defiants are compatible with Quantum torpedoes why does Starfleet bother using regular Photons ?

I know Quantums may be expensive but I think it would have been a good idea to keep a few Quantums on every Federation starship for emergency situations where maximum firepower is needed.

Becuase its harder to build quantums therefore you only equip ur most import ships with them., they need some weird crystal for their zero-point thing.

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Hasn't it been stated in on-screen dialogue before that quantum torpedoes are more powerful than photon torpedoes?

As for how quantum torpedoes got into Dreadnaught, maybe the Maquis stole them from the Federation?

I don't know how the Cardassians got them. They probably developed them on their own, and Dreadnought was one of the few "ships" to carry them.

As far as quantums vs. photons and dialogue is concerned, all I remember is a vague reference from "Little Green Men":


QUARK
Weapons... If you want weapons,
I'm the man to see. We can teach
you how to make phasers,
disruptors, photon torpedoes... or
even quantum torpedoes. A little
more expensive, but worth it.

Quark's bluffing a general at Roswell in 1947 (don't ask). But if he's truthful about qtorps' greater value, it's likely that they are more destructive.

It could well be that their actual yield is similar to photorps', but they're directed warheads. From what I recall, they typically don't explode with a big fireball, a'la the ponderous photorp blasts on the face of a Borg cube in "Q Who?"

Interestingly, we saw a number of focused photorp explosions on VGR and in "First Contact". The quantum torpedo might've simply been the latest model in a series of such torpedoes. Maybe something about photorps made it difficult to direct a decent fraction of their total yields. That could partially explain why qtorp casings look different, whatwith their sharper angles and different shape.

Speculation notwithstanding their effects do seem a bit greater than regular photon torpedoes. 9 quantum torpedo hits on the Scimitar's shields rocked it about much harder than similar volumes of disruptor, phaser and photorp fire IIRC.

There's also dialogue from "Paradise Lost" which indicates using quantum torpedoes against the Defiant could've quickly destroyed her where phasers and [a mostly likely limited no. of] photorps wouldn't.

LEYTON
Under no circumstances is that
ship to reach Earth.
(a beat)
The Lakota's carrying quantum
torpedoes, isn't she?

BENTEEN
Yes, sir.

LEYTON
Then use them.

BENTEEN
Admiral, my orders were to disable
the Defiant, not destroy her.

...
SISKO
Captain, you know as well as I do
that there aren't any
Shape-shifters on the Defiant. Use
those quantum torpedoes and you'll
be killing fifty Starfleet officers.

The Lakota wasn't pulling punches with her phaser fire--O'Brien comments that she "has a lot of firepower for an Excelsior-class ship"--so at the very least, qtorps are more destructive than phasers.

That might seem like a red herring, but IMO, a powerful phaser shot compares pretty favorably to at least a single photorp's effects.

I base that in "Yesterday's Enterprise." A 5 photorp spread did "moderate damage" to a K'Vort's shields. Yet, ~1.5 seconds of phaser fire depleted the remaining shields and destroyed the same ship (or worse yet, a fresh ship, but I seriously doubt that).

That'd point to a rough parity, so qtorps > phasers and qtorps > photorps isn't all that unreasonable. Just don't set it in stone. One could easily argue that photorps are usually much heavier weapons than the biggest phasers.

Still, I figured I'd throw it out

I can tell you exact honest completely 100% truthful reason why there is a disparity in the yields of various weapons, but I don't think you people would be very satisfied with the answer.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I can tell you exact honest completely 100% truthful reason why there is a disparity in the yields of various weapons, but I don't think you people would be very satisfied with the answer.

Heh heh...let me guess...

Subspace?

I'm teasing. I know, writing and FX.

You're no fun

seanrobertson wrote:Heh heh...let me guess...

Subspace?

I'm teasing. I know, writing and FX.

You're no fun

Actually, I was going to say it was a subspace effect.

But seriously, take a page from my writing professor in college, who actually writes science fiction as a secondary source of income. I was talking with him before class once and mentioned spacebattles and the discussions there and rules of canon and such. He snorted and went "Don't they know that when you are writing science fiction, the effect and function of any device is exactly whatever the plot requires of it?"

Gil Hamilton wrote: Actually, I was going to say it was a subspace effect.

*slaps forehead* D'oH!

Regarding your prof's. point, I know. That's just not much fun

Back to quantum torpedoes, here's another tidbit, from DS9's "Shattered Mirror":

KLINGON OFFICER
According to our reports, it's of
unknown classification and carries
an impressive weapons array --
some kind of improved photon
torpedoes...

This guy was referring to a Defiant built in the "mirror universe" which was armed with quantum torpedoes. (Speaking of writing technology to suit the plot's requirements, this mirror Defiant was one of the most ridiculous things ever on DS9. A small group of rag-tag rebels quickly built the thing based on some plans they stole. Some might say it was just a crude knock-off, but it was outwardly identical to the real D, and functional enough to kick the shit out of a ~2 mile-long Negh'Var variant.)

So again, we don't have a clear reference to greater yield per se, just something that's "improved" or "more expensive."

That should correlate to a deadlier weapon but outside of the TMs I can find no specific mention of as much.

Oh, and while we're talking about plot, myth has it that quantum torpedoes were chiefly the result of Avery Brooks flubbing one of his lines. Someone supposedly liked the sound of "quantum" so the name stuck. Typical, eh?

Based on "Paradise Lost" it seems clear that q-torps are in fact more powerful than regular torpedoes. It is unclear how much more powerful they are, but the fact that the E-E "destroyed" a borg cube with a small spread of torpedoes is invalid for determining firepower for several reasons:
1. The cube had been engaged with other elements of SF for hours or even days prior to the E-E's arrival on the scene. Its shields and other systems had been heavily damaged, and so the q-torps apparently superior penetrative power was due to other factors.
2. The torpedoes went off inside the cube, there is a delay, and then the cube is destroyed. This indicates clearly that the cube was not destroyed by the torpedoes themselves, but rather by its own systems (possibly a reactor explosion). This makes sense given the movie, since Picard ordered the fleet to open fire on a particular section of the cube, and he would probably have only done that if he had known there was a weakness in that area that could allow the fleet to destroy the cube.
3. Even if the torpedoes were responsible for the destruction of the cube, there were additional weapons discharges towards the same area at the same time. Other ships participated in the attack on the cube.
4. Again, even if the torpedoes were responsible for the destruction of the cube (as opposed to the cube's own damaged systems), the attack would be irrelevant as a source for information on the firepower of the torpedoes in question, because they would have still been attacking a weakness in the cube that Picard knew about and was exploiting.

seanrobertson wrote: (Speaking of writing technology to suit the plot's requirements, this mirror Defiant was one of the most ridiculous things ever on DS9. A small group of rag-tag rebels quickly built the thing based on some plans they stole. Some might say it was just a crude knock-off, but it was outwardly identical to the real D, and functional enough to kick the shit out of a ~2 mile-long Negh'Var variant.)

Half the impressiveness of the Defiants in general seems to be that they are simply designed for war and done so reasonably well. They don't seem to be revolutionary so much as the combination of things needed into one efficient package. Any one with the resources to build startships in the first place should be able to make a decent copy of the Defiant.

I don't know the resources of the rebels and so I won't comment on how plausible even a knock off is.

How many q-torps did it take to blow up that Borg sphere? 4? 6? It wasn't vaporized; it just went up like a regular explosion. AND as "Enterprise" tells us, huge pieces of the sphere survived reeentry into Earth's atmosphere.

In DS9's "Starship Down", a Q-torp punches through the side of the Defiant, where Quark was able to disarm it. Yes, QUARK. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me. In TOS, one needed a KEY to open the torp to access its innards, BEFORE it was fired. (ST6)

Mr. Blackburn:

My thoughts exactly

Lord Poe wrote:How many q-torps did it take to blow up that Borg sphere? 4? 6? It wasn't vaporized; it just went up like a regular explosion. AND as "Enterprise" tells us, huge pieces of the sphere survived reeentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Yep.

3 torpedoes took it down. It's likely the thing's shields were down, like the E-E's, since the torpedoes impacted the hull directly.

In DS9's "Starship Down", a Q-torp punches through the side of the Defiant, where Quark was able to disarm it. Yes, QUARK. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me. In TOS, one needed a KEY to open the torp to access its innards, BEFORE it was fired. (ST6)

Heh heh. Actually, that was a Jem'Hadar torpedo, sold to them by the Karemmans I think.

Lord Poe wrote:How many q-torps did it take to blow up that Borg sphere? 4? 6? It wasn't vaporized; it just went up like a regular explosion. AND as "Enterprise" tells us, huge pieces of the sphere survived reeentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Right. The incident cannot be used to determine either a maximum or a minimum yield for quantum torpedoes. It is worthless for our purposes.

In DS9's "Starship Down", a Q-torp punches through the side of the Defiant, where Quark was able to disarm it. Yes, QUARK. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me. In TOS, one needed a KEY to open the torp to access its innards, BEFORE it was fired. (ST6)

To be fair, the torpedo in question was defective, but you're right in that it should have been much more difficult to disarm (that, and I hate the whole "cut the blue wire, cut the red wire" thing. Would it kill some of these evil TV villains to use the same color wire in their bombs? Then no one would be able to tell each other which one to cut, and they would likely die because of their indecisiveness). Also, there's no evidence that those particular torpedoes were common amongst the Dominion fleet. I don't think that incident can be used, either.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:How many q-torps did it take to blow up that Borg sphere? 4? 6? It wasn't vaporized; it just went up like a regular explosion. AND as "Enterprise" tells us, huge pieces of the sphere survived reeentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Right. The incident cannot be used to determine either a maximum or a minimum yield for quantum torpedoes. It is worthless for our purposes.

In DS9's "Starship Down", a Q-torp punches through the side of the Defiant, where Quark was able to disarm it. Yes, QUARK. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me. In TOS, one needed a KEY to open the torp to access its innards, BEFORE it was fired. (ST6)

To be fair, the torpedo in question was defective, but you're right in that it should have been much more difficult to disarm (that, and I hate the whole "cut the blue wire, cut the red wire" thing. Would it kill some of these evil TV villains to use the same color wire in their bombs? Then no one would be able to tell each other which one to cut, and they would likely die because of their indecisiveness). Also, there's no evidence that those particular torpedoes were common amongst the Dominion fleet. I don't think that incident can be used, either.

There are engineering reasons to use color coaded wires in a electronic device. The main one being so you know what connects to where but there is nowhere that says you HAVE to use the standerd colors in your circuit just as long as you know what connects to what. I think it is silly that all villians use the same(standerd) color scemes for voltage layout of their devices. Bomb defusing school does not teach the red, blue, ect wires melarky because they assume that noone will wire their devices the same. So they tell you to be careful. To check everything before you cut anything because you can never know what it goes to.

I agree movie bomb defusing is much too easy.

I'm 99% positive it was 4 QT's that struck the Borg Sphere. As far as Cardie Q Torps, supposedly the Obsidian Order was able to sneak out plans from Starfleet, but that's definately non-canon. And torp yield is supposed to be 128 MT. However, supposed abilities and actual demonstrated abilities are, as usual, don't match AFAIK.

seanrobertson wrote:3 torpedoes took it down. It's likely the thing's shields were down, like the E-E's, since the torpedoes impacted the hull directly.

Except IIRC we've never seen the Borg use ANY type of shielding. Hell, in BoBW the E-D looked like it was hitting the hull directly, cept the weapons just weren't doing jack to them.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Lord Poe wrote:How many q-torps did it take to blow up that Borg sphere? 4? 6? It wasn't vaporized; it just went up like a regular explosion. AND as "Enterprise" tells us, huge pieces of the sphere survived reeentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Right. The incident cannot be used to determine either a maximum or a minimum yield for quantum torpedoes. It is worthless for our purposes.

In DS9's "Starship Down", a Q-torp punches through the side of the Defiant, where Quark was able to disarm it. Yes, QUARK. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me. In TOS, one needed a KEY to open the torp to access its innards, BEFORE it was fired. (ST6)

To be fair, the torpedo in question was defective, but you're right in that it should have been much more difficult to disarm (that, and I hate the whole "cut the blue wire, cut the red wire" thing. Would it kill some of these evil TV villains to use the same color wire in their bombs? Then no one would be able to tell each other which one to cut, and they would likely die because of their indecisiveness). Also, there's no evidence that those particular torpedoes were common amongst the Dominion fleet. I don't think that incident can be used, either.

Um, IIRC there were 2 cylinders in that torpedo and they were both identical. Quark and friend had to decide which one to take out, they Karemma dude couldnt pick because they were identical. Then Quark took a chance, removed one cylinder and lucky for him and the ship, it was the one that defused it. The detonation cylinder looked the same as the defuse one. That was the point of the whole torpedo plot of that ep.

Just a couple of points.

The E-E in First Contact fired 5 Q-Torps at the sphere. The torpedoes penetrated the outer sphere structure then detonated and blew the sphere away. The explosion also appears to be directed, upon detonation the explosion came out of the other side of the sphere first before expanding to take the whole thing out. Oh and I watched 'Regeneration' yesterdy. God that was BS. The sphere in Earth Orbit was preaty damn destroyed by E-E from what you see, nothing likethe enormous part of the sphere that was left and from what we see 100 years later, it looks like a hell of a lot of the sphere survived to crash on Earth. Which is B&B playing 'creative rewrite' again, but I digress.

The Defiant in 'Shattered Mirror' wasn't using Quantums. The couple of torpedoes we saw her fire were clearly photons. Note that the Klingon says clearly 'some kind of improved photon torpedo'. My guess is he was being quite literal and the Defiant was stocked with standard issue Starfleet photon torpedoes, which were quite a bit more powerful then the ones kicking around the mirror universe.

My pet theory is that there are two types of Quantum Torpedoes. Given how the Quantums the Defiant fires and the Quantums the E-E fires visualy are somewhat different.

The type the Defiant fires are the orgininal production models developed in the TNG era along with the Defiant program. They are about as powerful as a current issue Photon torpedo Starfleet ships carry. But they don't require anything like the same amoutn of antimatter/matter charge. So on a small ship like the Defiant, its far more economical. The E-E carries the heavy bigass Quantums, the Mark II if you will.

The TM's are not realy accepted but they do contain a lot of info on the workings of the Q-Torps, none of which is contradicted onscreen. What they say is that a Q-Torp uses a Photons warhead as a trigger then is able to double that yield. It would make sense then that the Defiant uses a Q-Torp using a TNG era warhead as its trigger while the E-E uses a DS9-VOY era torp as its basic input.

Thats my five cents anyway.

apocolypse wrote:

seanrobertson wrote:3 torpedoes took it down. It's likely the thing's shields were down, like the E-E's, since the torpedoes impacted the hull directly.

Except IIRC we've never seen the Borg use ANY type of shielding. Hell, in BoBW the E-D looked like it was hitting the hull directly, cept the weapons just weren't doing jack to them.

Apoc, I just checked the DVD: it was indeed four torpedoes. Shit...and there I was sure it was 3!

However, we HAVE actually seen the Borg use shielding, and we hear about it numerous times:

"The Borg shields are weakening!"--Torres, "Scorpion, pt. II" following an 8472 attack

"Re-generate primary shield matrix"--Borg, "Dark Frontier."

Plan to steal transwarp coil which hinged on the destruction of a sphere's shield emitters--same.

"Our shields are failing"--Borg Queen, same.

"One of their [tactical cube's] shield grids is fluctuating at a rate of point zero six terahertz."--Tuvok, "Unimatrix Zero, pt. I"

"I've taken the [tactical cube's] ventral shield grid offline!"--Torres, same.

Transwarp hub shielding is maintained by "the Borg Queen herself"--Janeway, "Endgame."

I do not have images but I could point you to specific episodes which depicted Borg shielding, including "Drone," "Child's Play," "Unimatrix Zero" and maybe "Endgame": I seem to recall, near the end, VGR shot transphasic torpedoes at a sphere. They were dispersed and we saw a shield effect (?).

It is rather odd that we didn't see Borg shield FX in most of TNG, but that's really the subject of another thread

Borg cubes obviously have hull-hugger shielding.

Darth Wong wrote:Borg cubes obviously have hull-hugger shielding.

Yeah.

I've proposed that before but some people still objected, claiming we should've seen some kind of shield effects regardless. IIRC, I asked them why they were assuming all shield types were identical, and/or pointed them to the hull-huggers in a "Tears of the Prophets" fleet. (I could be wrong, but I don't think any of those ships had a shield glare when under fire.)

seanrobertson wrote:

apocolypse wrote:

seanrobertson wrote:3 torpedoes took it down. It's likely the thing's shields were down, like the E-E's, since the torpedoes impacted the hull directly.

Except IIRC we've never seen the Borg use ANY type of shielding. Hell, in BoBW the E-D looked like it was hitting the hull directly, cept the weapons just weren't doing jack to them.

Apoc, I just checked the DVD: it was indeed four torpedoes. Shit...and there I was sure it was 3!

However, we HAVE actually seen the Borg use shielding, and we hear about it numerous times:

"The Borg shields are weakening!"--Torres, "Scorpion, pt. II" following an 8472 attack

"Re-generate primary shield matrix"--Borg, "Dark Frontier."

Plan to steal transwarp coil which hinged on the destruction of a sphere's shield emitters--same.

"Our shields are failing"--Borg Queen, same.

"One of their [tactical cube's] shield grids is fluctuating at a rate of point zero six terahertz."--Tuvok, "Unimatrix Zero, pt. I"

"I've taken the [tactical cube's] ventral shield grid offline!"--Torres, same.

Transwarp hub shielding is maintained by "the Borg Queen herself"--Janeway, "Endgame."

I do not have images but I could point you to specific episodes which depicted Borg shielding, including "Drone," "Child's Play," "Unimatrix Zero" and maybe "Endgame": I seem to recall, near the end, VGR shot transphasic torpedoes at a sphere. They were dispersed and we saw a shield effect (?).

It is rather odd that we didn't see Borg shield FX in most of TNG, but that's really the subject of another thread

Ahh, that's right, I stand corrected. I forgot about dialogue and was just thinking about visuals. It is wierd that there isn't a shield flare effect for the Borg, but that's just more ST weirdness I guess. Aren't they missing something though? Was it deflectors they don't use? Wasn't there some reason that 8472 was bashing cubes left and right and Voyager was able to survive, or was that just another plot device?

Ahh, that's right, I stand corrected. I forgot about dialogue and was just thinking about visuals. It is wierd that there isn't a shield flare effect for the Borg, but that's just more ST weirdness I guess. Aren't they missing something though? Was it deflectors they don't use? Wasn't there some reason that 8472 was bashing cubes left and right and Voyager was able to survive, or was that just another plot device?

Borg shielding may indeed be hull conforming, that would explain their incredible strength.

Regarding Voyger surviving a hit from the Species 8472 biopulse beam that would be one of the worst plot devices in Star Trek history.

My only possible explanation would be that the Bioship was heavily damaged from it's battle with the Borg Cubes. It's weapons were probobly rendered nearly ineffective. So Voyger got hit by only a tiny fraction of the Bioships potential firepower.

This theory has some supporting evidence. For instance the Bioship was found damaged and stuck in the hull of a Borg Cube. It was making no effort to free itself and destroy the Cube. That would indicate that it's weapons may indeed have been crippled.

Also even after it detected Voyger approaching it and even trying to get a tractor beam on it, it did not respond. This confirms that the Bioship was realy so badly damaged that it did not expect to have enough firepower to destroy even the primitive Voyger. So when it finaly opened fired it's weapons were very weak compared to normal.