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2 questions that come up as I watch "Q Who?":

1) If this had been a Voyager episode, would Janeway have accepted Q as a crewmember?

2) Picard says to Q "Would you start out as an ordinary crewman? Hmm?" Perhaps there are non-officers in 24th C Starfleet?

I think Janeway would have let him. Would explain all the plot contradictions of the show

2) Picard says to Q "Would you start out as an ordinary crewman? Hmm?" Perhaps there are non-officers in 24th C Starfleet?

Well, Cheif O'Brien but that's not for sure.

And ordinary crewman doesn't mean much. It doesn't necessarily mean enlisted personell; it could mean an humdrum red shirt job as oppossed to being on the command crew.

Stormbringer wrote:Well, Cheif O'Brien but that's not for sure.

And ordinary crewman doesn't mean much. It doesn't necessarily mean enlisted personell; it could mean an humdrum red shirt job as oppossed to being on the command crew.

Er, IIRC, TNG redshirt = command crew.

You must be thinking of the gold shirt people, which includes engineering, security, and operations.

If you're a regular crewman, you have to wear those fruity man-skit uniforms and work up in the Jeffries tubes.

Lord Poe wrote:If you're a regular crewman, you have to wear those fruity man-skit uniforms and work up in the Jeffries tubes.

And thats why ladies and gentlemen i prefer Babylon 5.

Uraniun235 wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Well, Cheif O'Brien but that's not for sure.

And ordinary crewman doesn't mean much. It doesn't necessarily mean enlisted personell; it could mean an humdrum red shirt job as oppossed to being on the command crew.

Er, IIRC, TNG redshirt = command crew.

You must be thinking of the gold shirt people, which includes engineering, security, and operations.

He means redshirt in the classic sense. While the division colours changed between TOS and TNG, the term used by the fans stayed.

Uraniun235 wrote:2 questions that come up as I watch "Q Who?":

1) If this had been a Voyager episode, would Janeway have accepted Q as a crewmember?

2) Picard says to Q "Would you start out as an ordinary crewman? Hmm?" Perhaps there are non-officers in 24th C Starfleet?

1?

Possibly, after a lot of hemming and hawing. She did indulge Q by letting his "son" stay onboard for some kind of ridiculous education.

2, again, ? I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this question. There was a Crewman Simon Tarses in "Drumhead," the part-human, part-Romulan kid Admiral Satie was ready to crucify.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:Well, Cheif O'Brien but that's not for sure.

And ordinary crewman doesn't mean much. It doesn't necessarily mean enlisted personell; it could mean an humdrum red shirt job as oppossed to being on the command crew.

Er, IIRC, TNG redshirt = command crew.

You must be thinking of the gold shirt people, which includes engineering, security, and operations.

He means redshirt in the classic sense. While the division colours changed between TOS and TNG, the term used by the fans stayed.

Thanks for taking care of that one Spanky.

Ex Astris Scientia has a viewpoint on the rank issue Here

Actually, I was watching "Starship Down" the other night (just got the Season 4 DS9 DVD's) and O'Brien said:

"These men aren't bridge officers, they didn't go to Starfleet Academy. They're engineers."

Also in Hippocratic Oath Garanagar said to O'Brien:

"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

I guess O'Brien might have talked about Starfleet Academy in his Enterprise days, but they sort of reinvented the character for DS9 and the implication seems to be that his is indeed a non-commissioned officer that didn't attend Starfleet Academy.

The Kernel wrote:Actually, I was watching "Starship Down" the other night (just got the Season 4 DS9 DVD's) and O'Brien said:

"These men aren't bridge officers, they didn't go to Starfleet Academy. They're engineers."

Also in Hippocratic Oath Garanagar said to O'Brien:

"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

I guess O'Brien might have talked about Starfleet Academy in his Enterprise days, but they sort of reinvented the character for DS9 and the implication seems to be that his is indeed a non-commissioned officer that didn't attend Starfleet Academy.

Could he have gone there for a basic course in Engineering?

Gandalf wrote:

The Kernel wrote:Actually, I was watching "Starship Down" the other night (just got the Season 4 DS9 DVD's) and O'Brien said:

"These men aren't bridge officers, they didn't go to Starfleet Academy. They're engineers."

Also in Hippocratic Oath Garanagar said to O'Brien:

"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

I guess O'Brien might have talked about Starfleet Academy in his Enterprise days, but they sort of reinvented the character for DS9 and the implication seems to be that his is indeed a non-commissioned officer that didn't attend Starfleet Academy.

Could he have gone there for a basic course in Engineering?

I suppose that's possible. You can't directly relate Starfleet Academy to modern military academies but still, it seems like it is implied that Starfleet Academy is officer's school, not a training center for enlists. Still it would explain a lot.

Modern military academies (West Point, Air force Academy) are strictly officer schools and enlists get engineering training at the military base to which they have been assigned. So this doesn't support it, but perhaps Starfleet Academy is also the name for a series of Starfleet training academies that are not directly connected to the officer school.

The Kernel wrote:"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

Chief petty officer is not a rank, it is a rate (E-7). In naval usage, only officers have rank. Enlisted personnel have rate (pay grade) and rating (job).

Chief O'Brien was probably a chief quartermaster (QMC) at the beginning of The Next Generation, and may have subsequently changed rate to chief machinist's mate (MMC) or chief engineman (ENC). In Deep Space Nine, he wore a collar insigne consisting of three chevrons and two pips, directly analogous to the insigne of a master chief petty officer (E-9), although, as quoted, "Hippocratic Oath" misidentifies him as a CPO, not a MCPO.

Another CPO has appeared on screen; in The Motion Picture, after Lieutenant (jg) Ilia is killed, she is replaced as ship's navigator by Chief DiFalco, who should therefore be a QMC.

Publius

Stormbringer wrote:And ordinary crewman doesn't mean much. It doesn't necessarily mean enlisted personell; it could mean an humdrum red shirt job as oppossed to being on the command crew.

"Ordinary crewman" is directly analogous to ordinary seaman, the lowest grade of enlisted person in the old Royal Navy (functionally equivalent to the United States Navy's seaman recruit). An ordinary seaman with sufficient specialization or experience may be rated as an able-bodied seaman ("ables'man").

Captain Picard's comment is clearly not a reference to an officer's billet of any kind, but to Q's entrance into the ship's company at the lowest degree of seniority.

Publius

"Crewmen" in Star Trek still go through the Academy IIRC.

Publius wrote:

The Kernel wrote:"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

Chief petty officer is not a rank, it is a rate (E-7). In naval usage, only officers have rank. Enlisted personnel have rate (pay grade) and rating (job).

Chief O'Brien was probably a chief quartermaster (QMC) at the beginning of The Next Generation, and may have subsequently changed rate to chief machinist's mate (MMC) or chief engineman (ENC). In Deep Space Nine, he wore a collar insigne consisting of three chevrons and two pips, directly analogous to the insigne of a master chief petty officer (E-9), although, as quoted, "Hippocratic Oath" misidentifies him as a CPO, not a MCPO.

Another CPO has appeared on screen; in The Motion Picture, after Lieutenant (jg) Ilia is killed, she is replaced as ship's navigator by Chief DiFalco, who should therefore be a QMC.

Publius

FYI, there are countless NCOs throughout the first 6 movies. The TOS era was very good at keeping the rank structure appropriate. Also, O'Brien did have service before joining the E-D. He was often referred to as a soldier and a hero of a particular ground engagement against the Cardassians.

Alyeska wrote:FYI, there are countless NCOs throughout the first 6 movies. The TOS era was very good at keeping the rank structure appropriate. Also, O'Brien did have service before joining the E-D. He was often referred to as a soldier and a hero of a particular ground engagement against the Cardassians.

Yes, of course there were. All six of the original cast's films have visually distinct uniforms for enlisted personnel (most prominently Crewmen Samno and Burke, the hapless assassins in The Undiscovered Country). The "Horatio Hornblower" style uniforms even had the red collar/black collar scheme to identify unrated seamen from ratings, just like the line and EDO officers' uniforms. It is also noteworthy that Nemesis reintroduces visually distinct uniforms for enlisted personnel, although they seem to lack insignia of rate and rating (the B4 was issued one such uniform). In fact, both The Undiscovered Country and "All Good Things..." feature the piping of the boatswain's whistle.

However, Chief DiFalco is unusual in that she has had her rate explicitly mentioned on screen, together with sufficient visual evidence to identify her rating. Theoretically, this, like Master Chief O'Brien's late Deep Space Nine collar insigne, would allow us to conjecture the enlisted insignia in use at the time (something which has been generally neglected throughout the series).

As regards Master Chief O'Brien's early career, he is almost certainly a QM at the beginning of the second series. Since he probably made a subsequent lateral transfer in rate, it is possible that he had previously served in some other rate (although unnecessary – Starfleet's notorious lack of a specialised hazard team could very well mean that he was a QM while earning his "soldier's" reputation).

Publius

Darth Wong wrote:"Crewmen" in Star Trek still go through the Academy IIRC.

Actually, from the above quote I pulled, I don't think that is strictly true. However, Star Trek TNG and later tends to be a little self-contradicting, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they mentioned crewmen attending Starfleet Academy.

As for O'Brien being a QM in TNG, this is obviously false. He had the rank pins on his collar of a Lieutenant J.G. (more Star Trek self-contradiction); it wasn't until DS9 that they added the different pins for enlisted personal.
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Publius wrote:

The Kernel wrote:"Human. Rank, Chief Petty Officer. You are what they refer to as a non-com [non commissioned officer]."

Chief petty officer is not a rank, it is a rate (E-7). In naval usage, only officers have rank. Enlisted personnel have rate (pay grade) and rating (job).

Chief O'Brien was probably a chief quartermaster (QMC) at the beginning of The Next Generation, and may have subsequently changed rate to chief machinist's mate (MMC) or chief engineman (ENC). In Deep Space Nine, he wore a collar insigne consisting of three chevrons and two pips, directly analogous to the insigne of a master chief petty officer (E-9), although, as quoted, "Hippocratic Oath" misidentifies him as a CPO, not a MCPO.

Another CPO has appeared on screen; in The Motion Picture, after Lieutenant (jg) Ilia is killed, she is replaced as ship's navigator by Chief DiFalco, who should therefore be a QMC.

Publius

Hey, it was a quote from the show, so I don't take any responsibility for its accuracy. But it wouldn't make much sense to identify NCO's by pay grade if you don't use money, or at least make the appearance of not using money.

Besides, although though a Master Chief might not be the equivalent of a Lieutenant J.G., I had a friend in the military that told me that even though officers are always technically higher in the military hirarchy, NCO's of very high rank (or rate as you put it) are not routinely ordered around by officers and are given the same level of respect as a high ranking officer.

The Kernel wrote:As for O'Brien being a QM in TNG, this is obviously false. He had the rank pins on his collar of a Lieutenant J.G. (more Star Trek self-contradiction); it wasn't until DS9 that they added the different pins for enlisted personal.

Chief O'Brien is an enlisted person (early confusion in terms of "rank" insigne notwithstanding), and early in The Next Generation he frequently had the CONN as a relief pilot. The enlisted rating responsible for piloting and navigation is quartermaster (in fact, in sailing ships, the man who actually had the wheel was always a quartermaster). He was quite clearly a chief quartermaster.

The fact that he wore the insigne of a lieutenant junior grade is hardly conclusive of anything, as it is not clear that Starfleet's early tricolour uniforms had a satisfactory means of showing rate (certainly there is none for showing rating). Given Starfleet's schizophrenic approach to enlisted personnel, it could quite possibly have decided to give him relative rank while acting in what it clearly considers an officer's capacity.

The Kernel wrote:Hey, it was a quote from the show, so I don't take any responsibility for its accuracy. But it wouldn't make much sense to identify NCO's by pay grade if you don't use money, or at least make the appearance of not using money.

Starfleet identifies its commissioned officers by pay grade; why should enlisted personnel be any different? The only reason the grade of commodore exists is that the Royal Navy wanted more flag officers but didn't want to pay them like rear admirals. Furthermore, increase in pay grade usually has a corresponding increase in authority and responsibility, a concept which still has meaning even in the absence of capital.

PUBLIUS