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Inspired by the Romans v. Redshirts thread I wonder if there is a definate difference in both quality and equipment between the Redshirts of the TOS era and the TNG era:

TOS REDSHIRTS

They have hand to hand training:

In Doomsday machine where Commodore Decker bests a Redshirt only after a prolonged hand to hand fight where the Redshirt handles himself well.

In Charlie X Kirk and a redshirt are practicing martial arts in the Ship's gym.


They have Melee training:

In Day of the Dove Redshirts use swords and daggers with such skill that they hold their own against Klingons who are born warriors.


They have heavy weapons knowledge:

Arena the Redshirts know how to use a mortar found in the wreckage of the colony and gives Kirk tactical advice as to what he would do if he were the enemy.



TNG REDSHIRTS

They can allow Klingons to smuggle weapons on their person into the brig.

They shoot well as long as the target is within 10 meters and not shooting back.

They can be overcome by zombie like Borg in First Contact.


I could go on but then someone might accuse me of stacking the deck.
If anyone can remeber some good things that Redshirts have done (NOT Worf or Tasha) that I can't recall please feel free to add.

So discuss whose better? Which era had redshirts that could actually keep up with their commanding officers?

Well, actually in TNG those who wear red are named commanding characters, who therefore are unbeatable


TOS wins.

For all their advantages, TOS redshirts sure did die more often.

But in one on one combat, assuming the TOS redshirt doesn't slip on a banana peel and break his neck or anything, I think the TNG redshirt is going down in a fist fight or in a shootout.

Of course there's also the qualitive difference between their equipment. TOS equipment is designed first and foremost for fighting. They've got mortars and a heavy machine gun analogue. If nothing else the TOS redshirts have better stuff.

Look at Mike's page on Federation gear for a better breakdown of it all.

The TOS redshirts take it. They may die more, but at least it's in a more spectacular fashion than getting hit in the chest by a disruptor or being injected by Borg nanoprobes. It's been a while since I've seen an episode of TOS, are there any particularly memorable (i.e. gruesome, heroic, just plain silly) redshirt deaths that come to mind?

Also, shouldn't the TNG redshirts be called "yellowshirts"? There was a slight uniform change during the intervening century....

If I'm to understand this correctly, TOS redshirts died not out of incompetence but because the environment in which they found themselves was overwhelming - which is unlike the TNG reshirts who died because they simply couldn't defend themselves.

I'd gladly take a platoon of TOS redshirts over a company of TNG redshirts if that's the case. (And if I got my element sizes mixed up, I apologize.)

TOS-Redshirts are far better than TNG-Redshirts.

Cool the TOS redshirts finally get the respect they deserve,plus the way they are killed is much better.

Who voted TNG?

IN ST3 it showed a Redhirt wearing a helment and body armor when Spocks quarters were opened

Also in Star Trek 6 the Redshirts seem to have some kind of chest armour. Phaser Disapators(sp)?

As for a Red Shirt in Post-TOS what about Miles O'Brian?

Not that I voted for TNG redshirts, but Stravo did mention that there's on screen evidence of Kirk training the TOS redshirts. Maybe the average redshirt was always lame and the ones on TOS were just good because Kirk took the time to teach them defense and tactics.

Agent R wrote:The TOS redshirts take it. They may die more, but at least it's in a more spectacular fashion than getting hit in the chest by a disruptor or being injected by Borg nanoprobes. It's been a while since I've seen an episode of TOS, are there any particularly memorable (i.e. gruesome, heroic, just plain silly) redshirt deaths that come to mind?

Also, shouldn't the TNG redshirts be called "yellowshirts"? There was a slight uniform change during the intervening century....

Hmm lessee here: dissolved/incinerated by Horta sweat/acid glands; having all the red corpuscles in their blood removed ("Obsession" cloud creature); tripping over and setting off the TNT/rock mines on Vaal's planet; Oh, and the "Salt Vampire" sucking all the salt from their bodies.

That's a few that covers the gruesome/silly demises I can't think offhand what qualify as truly heroic at the moment.

Lets not forget the time the Andromedans turned some into big hunks of sugar

If you think about it, it takes a lot to kill a TOS redshirt. To kill a TNG redshirt all you need is a wayward phaser or Borg zombie. TOS redshirts have to have something exotic or damn near imposiible to defeat to kill it (The horta, Andromadan sugar cubes, etc..)

Trogdor wrote:Not that I voted for TNG redshirts, but Stravo did mention that there's on screen evidence of Kirk training the TOS redshirts. Maybe the average redshirt was always lame and the ones on TOS were just good because Kirk took the time to teach them defense and tactics.

IIRC, the context of the 'training' wasn't Kirk training the redshirt, it was more in the manner of the 2 being sparring partners.

Having Kirk train the redshirts wouldn't even make sense. The TOS redshirts are supposed to be specialized in combat/security roles. While Kirk would have had some rudimentary training in melee combat, he was command trained, not a security specialist.

Having Kirk train a security officer in melee combat would be like having the commander of a destroyer training the Marine detachment on board in infantry tactics.

Stravo wrote:Arena the Redshirts know how to use a mortar found in the wreckage of the colony and gives Kirk tactical advice as to what he would do if he were the enemy.

Well, they were 'tactical advisors.'

accrding to the fluff Kirk started out in Security then moved to command

Stravo wrote: TNG REDSHIRTS

They can allow Klingons to smuggle weapons on their person into the brig.

They shoot well as long as the target is within 10 meters and not shooting back.

They can be overcome by zombie like Borg in First Contact.

They can successfully miss a target within spitting distance while using phaser rifles at a high rate of fire. (NEM)

Glocksman wrote:

Trogdor wrote:Not that I voted for TNG redshirts, but Stravo did mention that there's on screen evidence of Kirk training the TOS redshirts. Maybe the average redshirt was always lame and the ones on TOS were just good because Kirk took the time to teach them defense and tactics.

IIRC, the context of the 'training' wasn't Kirk training the redshirt, it was more in the manner of the 2 being sparring partners.

Having Kirk train the redshirts wouldn't even make sense. The TOS redshirts are supposed to be specialized in combat/security roles. While Kirk would have had some rudimentary training in melee combat, he was command trained, not a security specialist.

Having Kirk train a security officer in melee combat would be like having the commander of a destroyer training the Marine detachment on board in infantry tactics.

No, it would be like having God training the Marine detachment on board in infantry tactics. Big difference.

'Cept that Kirk was cooler than God.

Glocksman wrote:

Trogdor wrote:Not that I voted for TNG redshirts, but Stravo did mention that there's on screen evidence of Kirk training the TOS redshirts. Maybe the average redshirt was always lame and the ones on TOS were just good because Kirk took the time to teach them defense and tactics.

IIRC, the context of the 'training' wasn't Kirk training the redshirt, it was more in the manner of the 2 being sparring partners.

Having Kirk train the redshirts wouldn't even make sense. The TOS redshirts are supposed to be specialized in combat/security roles. While Kirk would have had some rudimentary training in melee combat, he was command trained, not a security specialist.

Having Kirk train a security officer in melee combat would be like having the commander of a destroyer training the Marine detachment on board in infantry tactics.

Oh come on, this is Kirk! He beat Klingons up and down the Alpha Quadrant, defeated a guy with several times his strength (Kahn) in a no holds barred fight, and beat up a whole bunch of other people and you're telling me it wouldn't make sense for him to train the TOS redshirts?

Then again, to be fair, TOS Redshirts are easy prey to giant plants, angry but primitive villagers, and really really ugly looking technicolour blobs.

Oh come on, this is Kirk! He beat Klingons up and down the Alpha Quadrant, defeated a guy with several times his strength (Kahn) in a no holds barred fight, and beat up a whole bunch of other people and you're telling me it wouldn't make sense for him to train the TOS redshirts?

But did he teach them the mysteries of the ripped shirt?

Take away Kirk's character shield, and he wouldn't be any more effective than any other Feddie Captain at melee combat.
My point is that the Captain of a vessel shouldn't have to train his security department.
Can you imagine an Imperial Captain on a Star Destroyer training the stormtroopers in marksmanship or hand to hand combat?

It's logical that Kirk might have been training with the Redshirts in his spare time.
It's not logical that Kirk was training the Redshirts.

Montcalm wrote:Cool the TOS redshirts finally get the respect they deserve,plus the way they are killed is much better.

right, because the stepping on and exploding rock or getting hit by freak lighting and getting vaporised is sooooooo great. the TNG redshirts never died in the numbers the TOS redshirts did, the best the TOS redshirts ever performed was the episode where the Klingons were on board with another alien making them fight, but the alien had some thing to do witht that as it always even the stakes between both sides.

Trogdor wrote:Oh come on, this is Kirk! He beat Klingons up and down the Alpha Quadrant, defeated a guy with several times his strength (Kahn) in a no holds barred fight, and beat up a whole bunch of other people and you're telling me it wouldn't make sense for him to train the TOS redshirts?

Only defeated Kahn by using a metal bar from a console, and Kahn had no weapon, and even then Kirk barely beat Kahn.

Death from the Sea wrote:Only defeated Kahn by using a metal bar from a console, and Kahn had no weapon, and even then Kirk barely beat Kahn.

The question is whether or not Captain Kirk won, not whether or not the Marquess of Queensbury would approve.

Publius