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In Voyager, near the end of the series, Q's son put Voyager in front of several borg cubes. Q himself appeared and yelled, very angrily at his son "How many times does the continuum have to tell you: DO NOT PROVOKE THE BORG!"

What do the Q have to fear from the borg if they are omnipotent, as they, and rabid trekkies, claim?

They could just be worried about the Borg messing with everybody else, and the Q wouldn't have anybody to play with any more.

FireNexus wrote:In Voyager, near the end of the series, Q's son put Voyager in front of several borg cubes. Q himself appeared and yelled, very angrily at his son "How many times does the continuum have to tell you: DO NOT PROVOKE THE BORG!"

What do the Q have to fear from the borg if they are omnipotent, as they, and rabid trekkies, claim?

They have nothing to directly fear from the Borg, but as insinuated throughout Trek, the Q look upon themselves as the 'guardians' of the Cosmos. Remember, not all Q are like the Q we know. Q didnt want the Borg going nuts and messing things up to create more work for the Q continuum (sp?).

And why is it so many people seem desperate to disprove that the Q are omnipitent? Every Sci-Fi series has had some immortal, super being, why is it so terrible Trek has one?

FireNexus wrote:In Voyager, near the end of the series, Q's son put Voyager in front of several borg cubes. Q himself appeared and yelled, very angrily at his son "How many times does the continuum have to tell you: DO NOT PROVOKE THE BORG!"

What do the Q have to fear from the borg if they are omnipotent, as they, and rabid trekkies, claim?

There's nothing substantial about Q's statement to indicate the Borg are any type of threat to the Q, or that the Q "fear" the Borg in any way. The fact that a child Q can toss 3 Borg cubes behind Voyager for "fun", only to be yelled at by his dad who then removes the 3 Borg cubes and boarding drones on Voyager should be sufficent proof of that the Q could bitch slap the Borg any time they choose.

Q's statement was obviously merely a reminder to his kid that the Borg don't fuck around, and flinging cubes around to watch them assimilate virtually any other inferior civilization or puny Federation ship is going to create havoc with the galaxy. The Q consider themselves self appointed guardians of the universe and order, therefore such an act on Q's son's part is merely mischief that his dad has to clean up.

The analogy would be a scientist cussing out his lab assistant for introducing some bacteria to another batch to watch one annihilate the other just for the fun of it, even though both bacteria forms are completely harmless to humans.

TurboPhaser wrote:continuum (sp?).

And why is it so many people seem desperate to disprove that the Q are omnipitent? Every Sci-Fi series has had some immortal, super being, why is it so terrible Trek has one?

Yeah, that's how you spell continuum but "omnipitent" is spelled omnipotent.

People are so desperate to prove the un-omnipotence of Q because Star Trek seems to have an awful lot of ultra-powerful, uber-beings that can alter space-time, mess around with the development and minds of less evolved races, create and destroy entire civilizations, and cross vast distances in an eyeblink. And not all of these races had to evolve these abilities; some developed technology that let them do it.

TurboPhaser wrote:And why is it so many people seem desperate to disprove that the Q are omnipitent? Every Sci-Fi series has had some immortal, super being, why is it so terrible Trek has one?

The Q are not omnipotent. Q was deprived of his powers against his will, the Continuum practices capital punishment, and Quinn was imprisoned in order to prevent him from committing suicide (again, against his will). None of these things should be possible if the Q are omnipotent; ergo, they are not.

Publius

To be perfectly honest, I would think that a group of being supposedly so powerful, would be able to come up with better names than each one calling himself Q all the time. I guess originality isn't something that comes with power.

I think the writers' wanted cheap humor and a deus ex machina.

Publius wrote:

TurboPhaser wrote:And why is it so many people seem desperate to disprove that the Q are omnipitent? Every Sci-Fi series has had some immortal, super being, why is it so terrible Trek has one?

The Q are not omnipotent. Q was deprived of his powers against his will, the Continuum practices capital punishment, and Quinn was imprisoned in order to prevent him from committing suicide (again, against his will). None of these things should be possible if the Q are omnipotent; ergo, they are not.

Publius

Lets not forget when Q turned up in DS9 Sisko punches him and Q is very suprised! omnipotent beings can be suprisesd?

Crazedwraith wrote:

Publius wrote:

TurboPhaser wrote:And why is it so many people seem desperate to disprove that the Q are omnipitent? Every Sci-Fi series has had some immortal, super being, why is it so terrible Trek has one?

The Q are not omnipotent. Q was deprived of his powers against his will, the Continuum practices capital punishment, and Quinn was imprisoned in order to prevent him from committing suicide (again, against his will). None of these things should be possible if the Q are omnipotent; ergo, they are not.

Publius

Lets not forget when Q turned up in DS9 Sisko punches him and Q is very suprised! omnipotent beings can be suprisesd?

They can act surprised. I never got the impression that humans did anything unexpected....Q has constantly been trying to get humans to move in a certain direction. That's why he throws them into certain situations......

They can act surprised. I never got the impression that humans did anything unexpected....Q has constantly been trying to get humans to move in a certain direction. That's why he throws them into certain situations

Yeah. "All Good Things..." is probably the best example of this.

Well, the Q may NOT be completely omnipotent. Maybe it's large-scale omnipotence: They can tell what's going on throughout the Universe at any given time, but they can't tell what every action is going to be of things near or involved with them. Or perhaps they're not supposed to know. If they knew the outcome of EVERY action, then why live at all?

Does it really require the logical flaw of omnipotence to be pointed out?

SirNitram wrote:Does it really require the logical flaw of omnipotence to be pointed out?

Not really. It's already been shown that they aren't.

SirNitram wrote:Does it really require the logical flaw of omnipotence to be pointed out?

Not at all.

The Q are not omnipotent, or omniscient. However, to say that a human has ever surprised one is jumping the gun IMO.

Q are REALLY powerful, but not quite omnipotent.

Its a father disciplining his son for throwing wolves as kittens. Its just not right.

Andrew Joshua Talon wrote:

They can act surprised. I never got the impression that humans did anything unexpected....Q has constantly been trying to get humans to move in a certain direction. That's why he throws them into certain situations

Yeah. "All Good Things..." is probably the best example of this.

Well, the Q may NOT be completely omnipotent. Maybe it's large-scale omnipotence: They can tell what's going on throughout the Universe at any given time, but they can't tell what every action is going to be of things near or involved with them. Or perhaps they're not supposed to know. If they knew the outcome of EVERY action, then why live at all?

There are no degrees of omnipotence. Omnipotence, like uniqueness, is an all-or-nothing proposition: either it is, or it is not. There is no "almost" or "less than completely".

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything which does not violate the law of noncontradiction. If one can be imprisoned against one's will, or deprived of one's powers against one's will, or put to death against one's will, one is not omnipotent, regardless of how powerful one is. While the Q are seemingly quite powerful, it is clear that they are not omnipotent, all claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

Publius

P.S. -- there is a difference between omnipotence and omniscience. It would be impossible to surprise the latter, but not the former.

P.S. -- there is a difference between omnipotence and omniscience. It would be impossible to surprise the latter, but not the former.

Wrong, if the omnipotent isn't omniscient, it isn't omnipotent.

StarshipTitanic wrote:

P.S. -- there is a difference between omnipotence and omniscience. It would be impossible to surprise the latter, but not the former.

Wrong, if the omnipotent isn't omniscient, it isn't omnipotent.

There is nothing inherent to the physical ability to do any thing not contradictory that requires the knowledge of all knowable things. There is a difference in meaning between the two words precisely because they are different characteristics. The reasoning you seem to be using is in invalid form (sc., denial of the antecedent).

Publius

Wouldn't an omnipotent being have the ability to make himself omniscient? And then, wouldn't an omniscient being have the knowledge to make himself omnipotent?

Agent R wrote:Wouldn't an omnipotent being have the ability to make himself omniscient? And then, wouldn't an omniscient being have the knowledge to make himself omnipotent?

Theoretically, yes to the former, and not necessarily to the latter.

An omnipotent being would possess the ability to confer omniscience upon itself (as this does not produce a contradiction). The problem with the idea of an omniscient being knowing how to make itself omnipotent is that it assumes that there is a way for a non-omnipotent being to become omnipotent; this is not necessarily the case.

Publius

The problem with the alledged omnipotence of the Q is that everything we've seen them do can be explained by existing technologies in the Trek universe: teleportation, illusion-projection, forcefields, invisibility, matter-replication. Even what Q did to the Calamarine in "Deja-Q" is not unprecedented —Flint the immortal had matter-reduction technology which he used on the Enterprise in "Requiem For Methuselah". Matter transmutation is not unusual either; the aliens "Sylvia" and "Korob" had transmutation technology at their disposal in "Catspaw". So did Trelaine, the eponymous "Squire Of Gothos" and the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name".

The Q may have refined these technologies to where they can tap into and control them through an implant in the body or even the brain (also not unprecedented —see Apollo). But to date there is nothing which definitively establishes the Q as having achieved total mentalism, as is displayed by the Organians or the Metrons.

Patrick Degan wrote:The problem with the alledged omnipotence of the Q is that everything we've seen them do can be explained by existing technologies in the Trek universe: teleportation, illusion-projection, forcefields, invisibility, matter-replication. Even what Q did to the Calamarine in "Deja-Q" is not unprecedented —Flint the immortal had matter-reduction technology which he used on the Enterprise in "Requiem For Methuselah". Matter transmutation is not unusual either; the aliens "Sylvia" and "Korob" had transmutation technology at their disposal in "Catspaw". So did Trelaine, the eponymous "Squire Of Gothos" and the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name".

The Q may have refined these technologies to where they can tap into and control them through an implant in the body or even the brain (also not unprecedented —see Apollo). But to date there is nothing which definitively establishes the Q as having achieved total mentalism, as is displayed by the Organians or the Metrons.

...And nothing at all says they have not. I think its rather clear to anyone who watches the show that whatever the Q do, they appear to do it in ways beyond technology. THey have repeatedly said/alluded to the fact that we can only perceive what we WANT them to perceive of us. That the couple of times we have seen Starfleet guys enter the continum itself, they have had to use their abilities to allow them to interprate it on a level they can understand.

In the absence of any indication they use some kind of hidden technology to acomplish their goals, its simple logic to conclude they acheive it though simply being ABLE to do so.


On topic, its clear the Q are not omnipotent. Quin himself even admits to Tuvok frankly that although the Q like to present that face to the outside world, they are not actualy that. However for all intents and purposes, they are the next best thing.

Q clearly isn't AFRAID of the Borg in any way. Hell he even did exactly what he told his kid NOT to do, when he sent the Enterprise-D directly into their path and set them on the course with the Federation because (justifiably) he felt the UFP had gotten far to complacient. *I* think the reason he snapped at his Kid was because the Borg go nuts whenever they directly interact with the Q. They are programed to a fault, they would probably try everything in their power to assimilate one to add to their distincitvness, smashing through planets, star systems, whatever the hell to try, causing enormus harm to the poor guys just trying to make a living in the Galaxy.

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:The problem with the alledged omnipotence of the Q is that everything we've seen them do can be explained by existing technologies in the Trek universe: teleportation, illusion-projection, forcefields, invisibility, matter-replication. Even what Q did to the Calamarine in "Deja-Q" is not unprecedented —Flint the immortal had matter-reduction technology which he used on the Enterprise in "Requiem For Methuselah". Matter transmutation is not unusual either; the aliens "Sylvia" and "Korob" had transmutation technology at their disposal in "Catspaw". So did Trelaine, the eponymous "Squire Of Gothos" and the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name".

The Q may have refined these technologies to where they can tap into and control them through an implant in the body or even the brain (also not unprecedented —see Apollo). But to date there is nothing which definitively establishes the Q as having achieved total mentalism, as is displayed by the Organians or the Metrons.

...And nothing at all says they have not. I think its rather clear to anyone who watches the show that whatever the Q do, they appear to do it in ways beyond technology. THey have repeatedly said/alluded to the fact that we can only perceive what we WANT them to perceive of us. That the couple of times we have seen Starfleet guys enter the continum itself, they have had to use their abilities to allow them to interprate it on a level they can understand.

In the absence of any indication they use some kind of hidden technology to acomplish their goals, its simple logic to conclude they acheive it though simply being ABLE to do so.

Um, I'm afraid that's not the way logic works. Saying "the Q can do what they do because they're simply able to" is a tautalogy which explains nothing. Furthermore, the testimony of the Q in regard to the extent of their own abilities is valueless as an argument, since it A) depends entirely upon hearsay from people who will not reveal the truth of their abilities and B) fails because hearsay is not verifiable evidence in any case.

No Q can do anything when cut off from the Continuum; suggesting that a continuous link to their power source is required for the exercise of their abilities as well as their apparent immortality —a limitation which should not affect beings with innate powers. Q powers can be invested in "lesser" lifeforms, such as was evidenced with the Riker experiment; which tends to weaken the case for powers being unique to the Q lifeform's biological or mental makeup. The Q have never shown an ability to affect anything beyond a certain locality at any given time i.e. their trickery is exhibited only in one place at a time, with one group of "lab rats" at a time —and always requires a member of the Continuum to be on-site to perform work. This is in marked contrast to the Organians immobilising two warfleets while simultaneously projecting a representative of themselves in three disparate locations in the galaxy. Also, the Q are not telepathic, nor can they foresee future events or sense things beyond their immediate point of focus.

Finally, as has been pointed out in other arguments, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. At least three other examples of beings with apparent "godlike" abilities who in actuality are utilising some form of technology albeit a very advanced, subtle, and hidden form, have been observed in the Star Trek universe; sufficent to provide alternative explanations for the Q and their "powers". Apollo is the nearest example to the Q and his abilities were clearly dependent upon tapping an external power-source; when it was destroyed, so were his powers.

Platonic reasoning cannot take the place of observation; nothing in this universe exists from some innate nature of the thing to exist as it does.

I supose it could be considered the same as a dad telling his son off for poking at an bee hive with a stick. Sure one bee won't harm you but if you piss off a swarm of them there could be trouble.