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COuld it be that in the socialist utopia that is TNG Earth, humanity has been neutered to the point where hardly anyone would even enlist for an army, or a marine corps?

With the socialist system, replicators to make any dish you could want , and transporters to beam you anywhere around the globe one could lead a very relaxing life should they want.

Is this an explanation?

The airpower and now space power zealots got control of Starfleet some time between TOS and TNG and disbanded all ground units under the logic that they'd bombard everything into submission and then red shirts would suffice. Unfortunately they also ended up getting killed by an exploding warp core and with them went all the military reasoning and tactics like the conducting the bombardment bit. When combine with the stupidity of commanders beaming down into comply unknown environments we get the TNG and DS9 state of affairs.

Possibly. It takes a certain level of aggression to be a good infantryman, and God knows the UFP frowns on aggressive personalities.

Keep in mind also that the UFP doesn't even have a *military* that it will admit to; the UFP doubtless feels that it would make its neighbors nervous if it were to establish a standing military with the capability to occupy a city or planet.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The airpower and now space power zealots got control of Starfleet some time between TOS and TNG and disbanded all ground units under the logic that they'd bombard everything into submission and then red shirts would suffice. Unfortunately they also ended up getting killed by an exploding warp core and with them went all the military reasoning and tactics like the conducting the bombardment bit. When combine with the stupidity of commanders beaming down into comply unknown environments we get the TNG and DS9 state of affairs.

But does the utter castration of agressive personalities in the UFP have any connection to this?

Darth Fanboy wrote:
But does the utter castration of agressive personalities in the UFP have any connection to this?

No that must have come after the warp core killed the zealots, they'd favor bombardment at the slightest provocation or threat to the Federations position as dominate space power.

I'd say it has more to do with their philosophy as a whole.

You can defeat someone just by bombing the shit out of them, thus removing their ability to strike at you. But to conquer them you need ground forces to sieze control of the land.

The UFP has no problem removing someones ability to fight or putting a buffer zone between them, but it is very much against forcible expansion. Thus the difference.

Hope that is somewhat clear.

Ender wrote:
You can defeat someone just by bombing the shit out of them, thus removing their ability to strike at you. But to conquer them you need ground forces to sieze control of the land.

But if you've reduced them to broken sticks and balls of dried mud in place of stones those ground forces need only be a few Red shirts to guard the diplomats while they sign the surrender. Anyway you could be right on the philosophy; unfortunately they don't follow it diligently.

Possibly. We can turn to the U.S. as an example (though I shutter to do this). The united states possesses one of the most advanced and highly trained militaries in the world. The USMC and land on almost any beach and establish a beach head there and maintain it long enough for the army to deploy and begin offensive and defense operations. Some nations would be able to push this invasion back into the sea, but not many. This force when used properly in conjunction with the other branches can easily bring most governments and nations to there knees. I admit I may be exaggerating, but not to much. Taking a country is easier than holding on to it.

Now the U.S. has this, but what does it rely on to be the big stick nowadays? Not the vaunted marine corps, nor the navy, but the airforce, and naval aviators.

Why has it come to this. American civilians are unwilling to see body bags on the evening news, thus the civilian authority is unwilling to use the ground forces, thus the ground forces stagnate, thus the country become more dependent on its airpower until the time finally comes when it is determined that ground forces are unnecessary and are relegated to the position of glorified peace keepers that go to ground after the airwing has bombed the rubble into smaller bits of rubble.

Now take what I've told you and multiply it by the federation a hundred fold. Earth and Vulcan come out of nasty wars before the founding of the federation, no one wants to see more deaths so the concentrate on more of a fleet to do the nasty job of war and establish a light army to support this. As time goes on and no conflict happens the army is slowly striped away and the fleet is tweaked more and more till its no longer a military force but a joint operations tool. And we have a federation that almost got its ass handed to it in the dominion war and Klingon scuffle that only survived by an act of plot.

Darth Fanboy wrote:COuld it be that in the socialist utopia that is TNG Earth, humanity has been neutered to the point where hardly anyone would even enlist for an army, or a marine corps?

This might be the explanation.

It could also be that ground combat has become rarer and rarer - but this does not explain why both the Romulans, Klingons and Dominion all have standing ground armies.

Considering the poor performance of Dominion, Klingon and Romulan ground-forces (and those are supposed to be warrior-races), the UFP might think, there is no need for a real army.

Everybody in the 24th century has bought into the concept that Space Power, hand-held energy weapons and the transporter have made conventional military units obsolete - unable to deal with adversaries who can be anywhere almost instantly (theoretically) while near universally packing a punch capable of stun to matter disintegration.
Of course, the problem raised by all this doctrinal bullshitting is that armed conflict has regressed almost to 18th century naval combat. Unarmoured troops sallying forth from their techno-men-o-war to do battle with powerful but frequently inaccurate weapons, causing high casualty counts on virtually every SF tactical away mission (but they're all from stun or low-level phaser hits... aren't they?).
That this can be the case in virtually all ST nations for multiple decades suggests a vast interstellar unwillingness to admit that Space Power as a concept is not "all that", to the extent of willfully sacrificing personal protection of the troops. Body armour, guys. It's handy even if it gives the same protection against phaser hits as snot.

FTeik wrote:Considering the poor performance of Dominion, Klingon and Romulan ground-forces (and those are supposed to be warrior-races), the UFP might think, there is no need for a real army.

Couldn't they just use the opportunity to smash the Dominion and Romulans on the ground with superior ground armies instead of disarming???

Sure, it's unethical, but from a strategists's eyes it makes sense.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

FTeik wrote:Considering the poor performance of Dominion, Klingon and Romulan ground-forces (and those are supposed to be warrior-races), the UFP might think, there is no need for a real army.

Couldn't they just use the opportunity to smash the Dominion and Romulans on the ground with superior ground armies instead of disarming???

Sure, it's unethical, but from a strategists's eyes it makes sense.

I´hadn´t the ethics of the Federation in mind.

They see the poor excuses for grunts from the Klingons and Romulans and say, "oh, redshirts will do, so lets spend our money (or whatever the UPF uses) on space-cruisers with a little exploration and combat-ability".

They only start working on something that resembles a warship like the Defiant or Sovereign when they encounter the Borg and i highly doubt, that after the defeat of the Dominion their policy regarding ground-troops will change (if it works, don´t change it, although "it" could work better).

I'd tend to agree with Fteik's position, and the fact that the Federation are willing to assume their potential enemies won't improve would be characteristically incompetant of them.

Well, considering how pathetic everyone else is at ground warfare, Starfleet really doesn't need any gropos.

Wicked Pilot wrote:Well, considering how pathetic everyone else is at ground warfare, Starfleet really doesn't need any gropos.

Except for the fact that effective ground forces would allow them to take and HOLD positions in long wars, like the Dominion War. In addition, Effective ground forces would allow them to bleed their opponents dry if they ever attempted to retake or take a planet/area held by the Federation. That AND a force might be able to hold out until reinforcements could arrive.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The airpower and now space power zealots got control of Starfleet some time between TOS and TNG and disbanded all ground units under the logic that they'd bombard everything into submission and then red shirts would suffice.

Such a philosophy would sound like a pretty good idea, unfortunately, I believe the Federation would frown on such indiscriminate destruction.

If the UFP didn't want a standing army, then they should have focused on more unconventional means of winning conflicts. But on the other hand, most of the "unconventional means" tend to fly in the face of Federation ethics. For example: using NBC weapons, creating transporters that go through shields and mass-beaming enemy crews into space, greater use of covert-ops to undermine opponents, and of course, WMDs.

My theory has always been that the UFP abandoned ground forces and fighter wings because of political reasons. To have your ground forces operate properly, each member needs to be aggressive, smart, and capable of independent action. A naval officer on super-centralized ships like those used by Starfleet only needs to know how to do the job that's in front of him.

To get a good force of soldiers they need wolves; to get their starfleet ensigns all they need are sheep. The UFP probably eliminated their supply of wolves with their Cultural Revolution which emasculated everyone sometime after TOS. They've just been lucky that they're surrounding by fucking morons.