How good was Kirk really?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-05 05:48pm

Seriously, how good was James T. Kirk really as an officer?

Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II and in ST:VI the Enterprise only survived, because Spock had the idea to search for plasma.

In TOS we see him get out of a lot of dangerous situations, but most of those can hardly be compared to fleet or ship-actions.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-08-05 07:15pm

Apparently, Captain Kirk's greatest assets was his experience as an explorer; his relative success as Commanding Officer of a top of the line heavy cruiser throughout a five-year long-range mission was enough to motivate the Commanding Admiral of Starfleet, Admiral Nogura, to manipulate him into accepting promotion to flag rank and posting to the general staff. His experience made him "too valuable" to risk on regular duty in the operating forces.

In terms of how good he was at tactical operations, he was evidently good enough that he was appointed Chief of Starfleet Operations, with staff responsibility for fleet deployment and direction.

Publius

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-08-05 07:26pm

Well, he can seduce any woman in about 5 minutes, so he's pretty good.

Tactically speaking, he's better than most SF captains, which is not saying much, but he's not brilliant or anything.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-08-05 10:48pm

FTeik wrote:Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II and in ST:VI the Enterprise only survived, because Spock had the idea to search for plasma.

Well, keep in mind that in ST2 Kirk is getting old as well as rusty from being stuck in a desk for most of the year.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-08-05 11:50pm

Kirk would seem to be a fairly good commander in single ship engagements, however that doesn't necessarily and indeed often doesn't translate into great skill with multi ship operations or in command of a fleet despite what rabid fans like to claim.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-05 11:57pm

At that time, however, it seems nobody was really big into fleet maneuvers. I don't recall ever seeing more than one ship from another species at a time.

Tactically, it is hard to say how good Kirk was. While he achieved some outstanding successes, a large part of that was his crew (between Mr. Scott's engineering prowess, Mr. Spock's analytical capabilities, and the proficiency of the rest of the crew). However, Kirk was apparently good at manipulating the main office, since he managed to assemble and keep his crew, even pulling them back together after being separated for the V'Ger incident. Keeping the disparate personalities working together was also a masterstroke, given the contrast between Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy (though it is this amateur historian's belief that the two were much friendlier than public appearances would suggest) and between Mr. Chekov, Mr. Sulu, and Mr. Scott (the first and last appear to have been rather nationalistic, while Mr. Sulu appears to have been very much an "old hand" who at times seemed exasparated with the much younger Russian). Indeed, personnel management was probably the best of Kirk's abilities, something which could well be a lesson to today's Starfleet personnel.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-06 12:01am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Kirk would seem to be a fairly good commander in single ship engagements, however that doesn't necessarily and indeed often doesn't translate into great skill with multi ship operations or in command of a fleet despite what rabid fans like to claim.

I think and I could be wrong that Kirk was placed in command of the fleet at Organia that would be engaging the lead elements of the Klingon invasion force. I think that shows Starfleet's confidence in him that he would command one of the most important opening engagemertts of a war that almost happened. He was also chosen to oversee the M-5 Operations and to give an assement. His opinion on command ability was also important to starfleet.

As to his being old and rusty, in ST:V he is ordered to rescue the hostages at Nirandra III despite the fact that his ship is falling apart and its out of his way to get there. Same goes for ST:VI where he is ordered to escort the Klingion peace mission because they would think twice about firing on James Kirk and the Enterprise (a ship that was now reaching obsolescence by this time)

He certianly was considered a vital and important commander by Starfleet throughout his career.

But he certainly was not some Napolean in space as some fanboyz like to spout.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-08-06 12:10am

Kirk's diplomatic skills also seem to be above par (see TOS for examples.)

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-08-06 12:33am

Kirk's ability to lead his crew made him a great commander. All his great successes stem from the crew he has and his ability to lead them.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-08-06 01:25am

Isn't this like saying James Bond is less than stellar because he gets captured in every movie?

Equinox2003 · Post by **Equinox2003** » 2003-08-06 01:48am

Do not forget Trek 4, when he managed to go back and retrive those
whales. And he did it right away, did not go off looking for a better
ship or anything, he just saw a problem and went for the answer.
That sounds like a good officer to me.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-06 02:03am

Kirk was a good leader of men. His tactical abilities are unknown, since he didn't generally win battles through tactics. His tactics in his greatest battles were generally very simplistic. In "Elaan of Troyius", he simply tried to rotate his strongest side to face the enemy, and then he opened fire with all weapons when given an opportunity; what commander other than Riker would have done otherwise? In "Balance of Terror", he used sensors to pick up the rough location of the Warbird and then basically blasted away at it. His only tactical trick was to play possum after approaching too close to the debris dropped into space by the Warbird and getting his ship crippled (thus making possum his only viable tactic).

When Kirk fought battles rather than winning through diplomacy or mind games, he had the advantage of superior firepower; in a straight-up fight, the Enterprise generally outgunned its Klingon and Romulan foes. He was not a terrible tactician, but there's no reason to declare that he was a tactical genius either.

His strongest attribute was his ability to lead and inspire the men under his command.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-08-06 02:09am

Gandalf wrote:Isn't this like saying James Bond is less than stellar because he gets captured in every movie?

Not at all. You could take that exact same crew, give them a commander without Jim Kirk's ability to lead other men, and the Enterprise is lost with all hands any number of times. Great leaders make their subordinates great.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-08-06 08:33am

What Kirk was good at was improvising solutions. A good lateral thinker, as evidenced by his hastily-constructed cannon in "Arena" to his General Order 24 gambit in "A Taste Of Armageddon" to his logic traps for the Landrieu computer in "Return Of The Archons" and Nomad in "The Changeling", Kirk has shown the ability to quickly asses a situation and find an optimal solution to save himself and his crew. He has screwed up and badly on occasion ("The Apple", The Wrath Of Khan) but even then manages to reverse the situation back in his favour once he gets his brain into high gear. If he doesn't immediately conceive of a solution for a problem, he watches for clues to help him find one ("The Apple", "Who Mourns For Adonais", "The Doomsday Machine", "The Trouble With Tribbles", "Day Of The Dove", "Plato's Stepchildren").

As a tactician, Kirk's greatest strength was in finding the weakness of his opponent and exploiting it to maximum advantage ("Balance Of Terror", "Catspaw", "The Changeling", "And The Children Shall Lead", "I, Mudd"). He was excellent with the bluff ("The Corbomite Maneuver", "Mirror Mirror") and when necessary could lie like a rug with complete conviction ("The Conscience Of The King", "Catspaw", "Wink Of An Eye") to fool an opponent.

Finally, although an idealist, James Kirk was also a hard-headed realist who would never let himself get lost in the sort of pseudo-moralistic sophistries which always paralysed Jean-Luc Picard. If nothing else, Kirk could always recognise when survival was at stake and acted accordingly. Where Picard indulged the notion of negotiating with a proven dangerous killer-animal such as the Crystalline Entity, Kirk's first instinct would have been to hunt the thing down and destroy it.

We will never know how James Kirk would have faired in fleet command, but the evidence makes it clear that he had the qualities which made him an excellent leader of men.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-08-06 10:23am

Stravo wrote: But he certainly was not some Napolean in space as some fanboyz like to spout.

*cough* starcrossed *cough*

Seriously though, the 'cult of personality' surrounding Kirk served him well. his crew adored and respected him, and if he said something could be done, then it got done.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-08-06 03:32pm

I remember reading The Ashes of Eden a while ago. In it Kirk discribes the enterprise crew.

"The taught me how to build a ship, then they gave me scotty who could make a better ship in half the time with 50% less parts. The showed me how to fix a bandage on, then they gave me Bones. They taught me science then they gave me Spock. A captain has to be the link between the people and the ship."

Kirk is a pretty good commander. He isn't just a commander of ships and master of tatics. Data could be a master of tatics, a combat computer could do the same. Kirk was special becasue he was a leader of men. He had a lot to live up to on the show being as how Roddenbery based him on Horatio Hornblower.

Aeolus · Post by **Aeolus** » 2003-08-28 05:29pm

The Dark wrote:At that time, however, it seems nobody was really big into fleet maneuvers. I don't recall ever seeing more than one ship from another species at a time.

Tactically, it is hard to say how good Kirk was. While he achieved some outstanding successes, a large part of that was his crew (between Mr. Scott's engineering prowess, Mr. Spock's analytical capabilities, and the proficiency of the rest of the crew). However, Kirk was apparently good at manipulating the main office, since he managed to assemble and keep his crew, even pulling them back together after being separated for the V'Ger incident. Keeping the disparate personalities working together was also a masterstroke, given the contrast between Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy (though it is this amateur historian's belief that the two were much friendlier than public appearances would suggest) and between Mr. Chekov, Mr. Sulu, and Mr. Scott (the first and last appear to have been rather nationalistic, while Mr. Sulu appears to have been very much an "old hand" who at times seemed exasparated with the much younger Russian). Indeed, personnel management was probably the best of Kirk's abilities, something which could well be a lesson to today's Starfleet personnel.

There is a whole squadron of Romulan battlecruisers in the episode were Spock shags the sexy Romulan Commadore. And in the episode were the organians force a peace treaty there are fleets on both side

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-08-30 01:08am

FTeik wrote:Seriously, how good was James T. Kirk really as an officer?

Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II and in ST:VI the Enterprise only survived, because Spock had the idea to search for plasma.

In TOS we see him get out of a lot of dangerous situations, but most of those can hardly be compared to fleet or ship-actions.

From an actual military standpoint, to be honest, Kirk ought to have been court-martialed, dishonorably discharged, and possibly strung up from the gallows due to the number of times he put himself and his top-ranked chain of command in direct personal danger, and the times he put his ship into needless direct danger. And a fair number of times he got out of danger, it was due to some deus ex machina, or an Obvious Plot Device which rode to the rescue.

Really, Kirk was somewhat incompetent as a commander, but he was faced with even more incompetent enemies, which made him look good. Compare this to other Trek commanders, who were, on the whole, grossly incompetent, as military commanders. Any actual military commander could probably beat Kirk seven times out of ten.

<edit>
Oh yeah, and he was very charismatic and capable of great feats of improvisation and all that. Though he's decent for a TV/movie sci-fi commander, he'd still likely be owned in real life.
</edit>

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-08-30 04:12am

Though he's decent for a TV/movie sci-fi commander

Isn't that the whole point? Real military operations would be very boring for most people to watch.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-08-30 05:36am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Though he's decent for a TV/movie sci-fi commander
Isn't that the whole point? Real military operations would be very boring for most people to watch.

But the question was how good an officer was he. It didn't exactly specify in relation to what. Of course, allowances have to be made for television, but it's been demonstrated that it's possible to center a show around military characters who would realistically see all the action (Stargate mostly, and to a lesser extent Babylon 5.)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-08-31 04:14pm

FTeik wrote:Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II

To be fair Kahn is meant to be one of, if not the, most intelligent humans to ever live.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-08-31 05:23pm

NecronLord wrote:
FTeik wrote:Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II
To be fair Kahn is meant to be one of, if not the, most intelligent humans to ever live.

As far as I remember, Kahn didn't surprise Kirk it was that Kirk didn't raise shields (as per starfleets rules and regs) when confronted with a unresponsive vessel.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2003-09-02 12:44pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
FTeik wrote:Kahn was able to surprise him in ST:II
To be fair Kahn is meant to be one of, if not the, most intelligent humans to ever live.
As far as I remember, Kahn didn't surprise Kirk it was that Kirk didn't raise shields (as per starfleets rules and regs) when confronted with a unresponsive vessel.

To his credit, Kirk not only recognized his mistake and temporarily drove off Kahn and the Reliant, but also freely and profanely admitted his mistake, instead of accepting congratulations. A sign of a good leader, IMHO, is one who willingly admits their mistakes in front of their subordinates.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-09-02 01:08pm

Yes he turned to Saviick and said "You may quote Regulations as much as you like" Hinting that he should have listened in the first place. Insidentally Kirk knew that Checkov was the CO of the ship and I guess he was giving his friend's ship the benefit of the doubt when he shouldn't have done so. Spoke on the other hand showed signs of not trusting the ship from the get go AKA he checked all of the broken ship claims immiedietally

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-09-03 01:58am

Isolder74 wrote:Yes he turned to Saviick and said "You may quote Regulations as much as you like" Hinting that he should have listened in the first place. Insidentally Kirk knew that Checkov was the CO of the ship and I guess he was giving his friend's ship the benefit of the doubt when he shouldn't have done so. Spoke on the other hand showed signs of not trusting the ship from the get go AKA he checked all of the broken ship claims immiedietally

Chekov was not CO, Terrell was. I think Chekov may have been XO... not sure.

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