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After pondering this for some time, I have come to another conclusion about the Federation economy; it is not Communistic.

I have six primary reasons:

1. There were mining and shipping companies run by individuals

2. Bones made frequent references to money and pay in Starfleet. This could mean that prehaps they use a credit based system.

3. There is private property. Kirk owned several homes and Picard's family estate is described as remaining in the family.

4. In TOS, they describe miners being able to buy whole moons because they are so wealthy. This implies that they have accumulated wealth.

5. There is religion and art among the peoples. Kirk made several references to beliving in God as a being in TOS and Spock frequently did religious practices. Plus there was a chapel with crosses in it aboard the first Enterprise. There are far too many examples of art to mention.

6. It has a nontoltarian governement. This government is freely elected every so often and they have a democratic constitution.

My conclusion comes to this: The Federation is a Democratic Socialist Republic that has Western overtones.

Edit note: Could a mod please change the title of the thread to "Federation isn't a Communism"

On DS9 one would assume that the Feds would need currency to buy stuff from the shops.

neoolong wrote:On DS9 one would assume that the Feds would need currency to buy stuff from the shops.

Excatly. They also seem to be able to have some money so that they can maintain permanent trade with others.

Much of the reference to currency could actually be "latinum". The prescious metal passes for currency by DS9, however it's possible it was in use before then.

I don't believe anyone every thought the TOS was communist given that in ST3 ...Bones was bartering with money...and they always implied they had money.

But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

Ghost Rider wrote:I don't believe anyone every thought the TOS was communist given that in ST3 ...Bones was bartering with money...and they always implied they had money.

But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

But then then why and how are people able to get and maintain starships in the independant sector?

Who knows...how does Picard family maintain a vineyard wwith their namesake?

Or Sisko...

Either way the Federation have vehemently denied the use of money and the only currency respected is Gold Pressed Latnum, and they have some way of acquiring this.

Admiral Johnason wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:I don't believe anyone every thought the TOS was communist given that in ST3 ...Bones was bartering with money...and they always implied they had money.

But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

But then then why and how are people able to get and maintain starships in the independant sector?

Trade with non-Federation planets then?

Ghost Rider wrote:Who knows...how does Picard family maintain a vineyard wwith their namesake?

Or Sisko...

Either way the Federation have vehemently denied the use of money and the only currency respected is Gold Pressed Latnum, and they have some way of acquiring this.

I am still betting on some sort of credit based economy. Your goods have to be worth something.

Ghost Rider wrote:But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

Indeed. When some stock-broker guy from the 21st century someone winds up on the E-D (maybe he was a hologram, I can't remember) he baffles the entire crew with concepts like money. The only logical explanation is that money has been abolished to all but trade of latinum.

And, AFAIK, Federation citizens don't have personal vehicles of their own (you'll notice in all the long-shots of any Fed building on Earth, we never see a hover-car or anything whizzing by or the like). Of couse, any exception could easily be explained with latinum.

I think they simply have a high enough state of welfare that you don't need "money" to survive and can simply leech off the state if you wish, people who contribute to society get perks i.e. access to real food, credits to trade in at Sisko’s restaurant (although it isn’t run for profit per se because Sisko simply gets some perk credits from the government for contributing to society).

TheDarkling wrote:I think they simply have a high enough state of welfare that you don't need "money" to survive and can simply leech off the state if you wish, people who contribute to society get perks i.e. access to real food, credits to trade in at Sisko’s restaurant (although it isn’t run for profit per se because Sisko simply gets some perk credits from the government for contributing to society).

That is why I said it was a credit socity.

Gnome, they have transporters, so personal transports are just a waste planetside.

Ghost Rider wrote:Who knows...how does Picard family maintain a vineyard wwith their namesake?

Or Sisko...

Either way the Federation have vehemently denied the use of money and the only currency respected is Gold Pressed Latnum, and they have some way of acquiring this.

Simple.

True Marxism is unattainable. For the intelligentsia and military and party leaders, they allow certain luxuries one could expect for "heroes of the state" or "leaders of the people" or something. Sisko and Picard are well-known Starfleet officers, and Picard comes from a traditionally influencial family.

It isn't hard to see how they could win special rights.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

Indeed. When some stock-broker guy from the 21st century someone winds up on the E-D (maybe he was a hologram, I can't remember) he baffles the entire crew with concepts like money. The only logical explanation is that money has been abolished to all but trade of latinum.

And, AFAIK, Federation citizens don't have personal vehicles of their own (you'll notice in all the long-shots of any Fed building on Earth, we never see a hover-car or anything whizzing by or the like). Of couse, any exception could easily be explained with latinum.

Usually people note the scene in First Contact where Lily asks how much it cost to build a ship as big as the Ent-E and Picard says "The economics of the future are somewhat different", she assumes "no money" and he doesn't elaborate. When she talks about not getting paid Picard starts babling about the greater good of improving ones self which she uses later to convince him to abandon ship and blow up the borg.
As for the episode you speak of it should also be noted that Riker and Yar were surprised in another episode when a guest requested live animals to eat freshmeat. It was really a scene designed to try and show/prove the superior replicator technology, but none the less they were still dumbfounded and later on it became the norm to have non-replicated food.
I think that maybe they were just confused by the whole Wall-Street part because that was not really around anymore.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Who knows...how does Picard family maintain a vineyard wwith their namesake?

Or Sisko...

Either way the Federation have vehemently denied the use of money and the only currency respected is Gold Pressed Latnum, and they have some way of acquiring this.

Simple.

True Marxism is unattainable. For the intelligentsia and military and party leaders, they allow certain luxuries one could expect for "heroes of the state" or "leaders of the people" or something. Sisko and Picard are well-known Starfleet officers, and Picard comes from a traditionally influencial family.

It isn't hard to see how they could win special rights.

You forget that art is allowed and that there is religion in the member worlds.

Admiral Johnason wrote:1. There were mining and shipping companies run by individuals

Specifics, please. Are we talking about Dax's family? The ones who live on a non-Federation colony?

Admiral Johnason wrote:2. Bones made frequent references to money and pay in Starfleet. This could mean that prehaps they use a credit based system.

No one really claims that TOS suffers from severe communism; it's TNG that's steeped in it.

Admiral Johnason wrote:3. There is private property. Kirk owned several homes and Picard's family estate is described as remaining in the family.

Kirk is TOS. Picard's family can work the farm without actually owning it.

Admiral Johnason wrote:4. In TOS, they describe miners being able to buy whole moons because they are so wealthy. This implies that they have accumulated wealth.

TOS

Admiral Johnason wrote:5. There is religion and art among the peoples. Kirk made several references to beliving in God as a being in TOS and Spock frequently did religious practices. Plus there was a chapel with crosses in it aboard the first Enterprise. There are far too many examples of art to mention.

TOS

Admiral Johnason wrote:6. It has a nontoltarian governement. This government is freely elected every so often and they have a democratic constitution.

When have we seen one of these elections? What do we know about their electoral systems? The Soviet Union had elections, too; did that make them democratic?

Admiral Johnason wrote:Gnome, they have transporters, so personal transports are just a waste planetside.

How do you know everyone has their own personal transporter? Or are there public transporters similar to subways? There is no evidence to suggest any of this. The only place we've seen the Federation use transporters is on starships.

Admiral Johnason wrote:Gnome, they have transporters, so personal transports are just a waste planetside.

What about NON-planet side. Remember, half the population's favorite vacation spot seems to be Risa. You can't use just a transporter to get there from Earth.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:But for some reason in the TNG, money is now obsolete for some reason according to Picard.

Indeed. When some stock-broker guy from the 21st century someone winds up on the E-D (maybe he was a hologram, I can't remember) he baffles the entire crew with concepts like money. The only logical explanation is that money has been abolished to all but trade of latinum.

And, AFAIK, Federation citizens don't have personal vehicles of their own (you'll notice in all the long-shots of any Fed building on Earth, we never see a hover-car or anything whizzing by or the like). Of couse, any exception could easily be explained with latinum.

Did he really baffle the crew with the concept of money. Or was it his "obsession" with money. I remember he insisted his estate would have been cared for by a well founded institution. After several wars and global catastrophes it is not unreasonable to assume that institution and his portfolio have simply been lost. Maybe the crew was more baffled by his arrogance than anything else.

Admiral Johnason wrote: You forget that art is allowed and that there is religion in the member worlds.

Neither of these has anything to do with communism. They have to do with communism in China and the Soviet Bloc.

Latinum appears to be a form of Ferengi currency. Communisms can exist if OTHER groups also have currency.

How do you know everyone has their own personal transporter? Or are there public transporters similar to subways? There is no evidence to suggest any of this. The only place we've seen the Federation use transporters is on starships.

In a Voyager episode we see transporters used as a means of public transportation in San Francisco. I think both Starfleet officers and regular civilians were using the system.

It was the episode where a transporter accident sends Kim to an alternate reality or something where he never goes on Voyager, staying on Earth instead.

I thought Latinum was a form of intergalactic monetary unit. Anyways it was my assumption that the Bajorans paid the Star Fleet officers on Ter'ak'nor for staying their or that Star Fleet provided Latinum for its officers that have regular contact with the locals. Niether sound to good as theories though.

Remember the episode where some powerful alien made music play in Troi's mind. He was some sort of immortal being and he created the illusion of his wife and home still existing?

Anyway, when the landing party was walking across the lawn he confronted them and said "This is private property." Now IIRC, this was a federation colony, so does that mean that private property exists in some form. Maybe just on the frontier as a reward for being a colonist? Any ideas?

On DS9 Latinum is the currency and Starfleet members need to have some of it so they can buy stuff. But this is because DS9 is not a Federation space station, it is Bayoran. You don´t see this in 10 forward in the E-D or at any other Federation Space Station.

Federation Credits are worth nothing outside the Federation, like the East German 'Ostmark' was worthless as soon as you went to West Germany, but not vice versa, on contrary.

And I remember a DS9 episode (it was the one where Cpt. Sisko went to Earth to his father after the wurmhole was closed). The father said, Benjamin Sisko used his transporter credit for one year or so in the first week when he went to starfleet academy, because he beamed home to eat every evening.

I always had the impression that Federation citicens are assigned to ressources by the state (perhaps depending on their functions) rather than working for money. You never see them talk about money like we do, except when they deal with Ferengis or so.