Advice on dealing with Borg Wankers

[Davey]

Hey again, need a little help if it's not too much trouble.

I'm facing off against a Borg-Wanker at a private forum both of us frequent in a Galactic Empire versus Borg Collective debate. The dude's been trying to talk down the numerical difference (although I've gotten him to acknowledge it) and has been repeating the "and once they assimilate some Wars ships, by taking weak or poorly-defended merchant ships, they'll have Wars tech, will adapt to wars tech, and turbolasers will do nothing. Their shields reflect mass." I came right back at him mentioning Wong's calculations and the Borg's 'failiure' to assimilate Data against his will, their inability to assimilate some other races, and that they aren't immune to everything, mentioning the TR-116 and how it was used in Lesser Evil and the famous Tommy Gun scene, and he's been telling me that the Borg will eventually adapt to the materials of the projectiles if they face projectiles enough. None of his theories are founded or proven and he's throwing in links to Wikipedia about how calling for verification for everything is illogical because the Logical Positivists said so and whatnot... it's getting on my nerves so I figured I'd take a break and come back to it after getting some refreshment.

Is there any advice you can can offer me on ending this Borg Wankery? If it helps I can repost his arguments because I can't hotlink back to the thread.

[wjs7744]

If he still insists that they will adapt even after you have explained why they cant, I doubt there is anything else you can do. Some people are completely impenetrable to logic.

[Coiler]

If he's really stubborn, it might be worth it just to leave it and not let him waste your time.

[Thanatos]

The Enterprise episode Regeneration is going to be your best friend. Not only are they shown to be vulnerable to a wide range of physical attacks, simply doubling the output of a phase pistol is enough to just blow through their adaptation to it for most of the end assault.

[Darth Servo]

Yet another trektard who insists treknology doesn't have limits. Color me shocked.

[Vehrec]

Firstly: The Borg have never been able to adapt fully to the Federation's weapons. They have faced the Federation in dozens of battles, and the Fed's weapons remain effective, to some degree. The Borg have limits, and they run into them against standard ST races. The Galactic Empire has ships that outmass cubes by a factor of ten or more, power generation capability unheard outside of a couple of 'elder races' that remain frankly too far out to call in ST and the undeniable speed advantage of 'go anywhere' Hyperdrive. Yes, the Borg have an exceptionally fast Transwarp Corridor system-but it's point to point only. And the Hubs can be blown to kingdom come by the Imperial Fleet easily enough.

As an aside, I wonder how much Imperial Jamming would affect the Borg's collective. They use subspace communications to link to one-another, and this technology is in use by the Imperials for short-range communications. It is probable that the Collective would suffer greatly reduced efficency against any Imperial fleet with dedicated EW vessels like the Communications Ship at Endor.

[Darth Ruinus]

Once these people start making arguments out of thin air, call them on it.

If they repeatedly fail to make any argument grounded within evidence in the show, just leave.

Also, what the fuck does he mean they will "adapt to the materials in the projectiles"? So, I guess I can get a vaccine that makes me immune to steel? I guess it cancels out momentum too right?

How about you toss his shit right back at him? Tell him that the Empire will decide to build all of their ships out of that quantum whatsits armor, all the TIE fighters will be fitted with rosonance torpedoes and Death Stars will become standard equipment.

Also, tell him that the Empire will fund Force User training programs that will put them far above Qs level.

Then, when HE asks for proof tell him its not neccessary, because the Logical Positivistswhatevers said so.

[Darth Servo]

has been repeating the "and once they assimilate some Wars ships, by taking weak or poorly-defended merchant ships, they'll have Wars tech,

Thats when you tell him he just conceded the entire discussion. If they need SW tech to stand up to SW, then obviously their OWN tech isn't up to the task.

[Peptuck]

and has been repeating the "and once they assimilate some Wars ships, by taking weak or poorly-defended merchant ships, they'll have Wars tech, will adapt to wars tech, and turbolasers will do nothing.

That's like saying that capturing a Coast Guard cutter will give you the technical specs for every ship and weapon in the Navy. Also, call him on the idea of how they're going to capture said merchant ships when they can invariably move faster with hyperdrive and their light weapons can probably match most heavy ST ships' firepower.

Their shields reflect mass

Call him on the fact that a collision with a single small 8472 bioship killed a Borg cube in Scorpion.

he's been telling me that the Borg will eventually adapt to the materials of the projectiles if they face projectiles enough

They would have been facing kinetic impacts against their shields for millennia prior in the form of micrometeorites and larger asteroid impacts, not to mention ship-to-ship collissions. Unless he wants to seriously believe that the Borg have never faced a single instance of ships ramming their hulls or opponents attacking them with melee weapons prior to contact with the Federation.

and he's throwing in links to Wikipedia about how calling for verification for everything is illogical

Because we can't let silly things like scientific thinking and "proof" get in the way of our Borg-wanking.

A repost of his arguments would be worthwhile just for humor value.

[Peptuck]

has been repeating the "and once they assimilate some Wars ships, by taking weak or poorly-defended merchant ships, they'll have Wars tech,

Thats when you tell him he just conceded the entire discussion. If they need SW tech to stand up to SW, then obviously their OWN tech isn't up to the task.

And its not like its going to matter. Its not as if capturing specs for the weaker shields and weapons of light merchant vessels would help them deal with the ridiculously powerful main weapons of the SW warships.

That's like having, say, Saladin captures a Cessna back in the Crusades and saying that since he has specifications for it, he can adapt and defend against an air wing of F-22 and F-35s screaming down from an offshore carrier group.

[PeZook]

"Adaptation wanking" is funny...

We "adapt" our soldiers to projectiles by outfitting them with body armor. They "reflect matter", in that projectiles bounce off this armor.

Does this mean that if I shoot a 120mm shell at a US soldier, he's just going to shrug it off?

[Darth Onasi]

It's hilarious how Borg wankers think their shields deflect physical attacks because they can shield against people, as 7 of 9 once did.
How is the force of one human throwing a punch equal to a barrage of bullets? Hell, even Worf with a knife can kill a drone, and this was long after Picard killed two with a tommy gun.
Ask the wanker why they didn't adapt then?

[BountyHunterSAx]

Out of curiosity, do we have a lower-limit to the capacity of a Borg Cube's ability to dissipate incoming energy? Or does the fact that they use 'frequency-based adaption' somehow make those calculations difficult/impossible?

Also - do we have any way of knowing how much energy was in the beam that the retrofitted Enterprise-D fired at the borg at the start of BOBW:Part 2?

-AHMAD

[Darth Servo]

Out of curiosity, do we have a lower-limit to the capacity of a Borg Cube's ability to dissipate incoming energy? Or does the fact that they use 'frequency-based adaption' somehow make those calculations difficult/impossible?

Also - do we have any way of knowing how much energy was in the beam that the retrofitted Enterprise-D fired at the borg at the start of BOBW:Part 2?

-AHMAD

Answering #2 will give a lower limit for #1 and an upper limit for #2 can be obtained from the warp core figures from Deja Q

[Batman]

Since their eventual plan involved using the Warp field to reduce the mass of the moon, and thus technobabble, not really.

[Singular Intellect]

It's hilarious how Borg wankers think their shields deflect physical attacks because they can shield against people, as 7 of 9 once did.

Really? When did this take place? I've watched most of Voyager, and the only scene I ever recall a Borg drone's shield physically stopping someone from touching them was One's shield when he wouldn't let the Docter operate on him.

How is the force of one human throwing a punch equal to a barrage of bullets? Hell, even Worf with a knife can kill a drone, and this was long after Picard killed two with a tommy gun.
Ask the wanker why they didn't adapt then?

One should note just because it may be possible to protect against a specific attack, doesn't mean implementing such protection on all their drones is practical or efficient. The expenditure of losing a couple of drones to physical attacks would be magnitudes smaller than the Borg attempting to equip all their drones with such protection.

[Batman]

One should note just because it may be possible to protect against a specific attack, doesn't mean implementing such protection on all their drones is practical or efficient. The expenditure of losing a couple of drones to physical attacks would be magnitudes smaller than the Borg attempting to equip all their drones with such protection.

Yea, since KE/momentum weapons are totally rare and virtually nobody uses them. Oh wait, what with that being the most basic form of attack any civilisation is bound to have. Current day mankind has had that kind of weapons for 15,000 years bare bones minimum but the Borg never ran into any species using that kind of weapon? The term NOT comes to mind.

Seriously, how often have we got to go through this?

[Singular Intellect]

Since their eventual plan involved using the Warp field to reduce the mass of the moon, and thus technobabble, not really.

Unless there's a means of quantifying the energy requirements for producing and maintaining a warp field, it seems unsubstantiated to suggest the energy necessary to do so is less than than the energy required to physically move the moon by traditional physics.

Just because the energy may be overall available doesn't mean that a specific ship system (in this case the engines) has the capability to channel it.

The Borg deflector dish weapon is a perfect example. The E-D had a much superior source of destructive energy than their normal weapon systems, but they had to utilize another ship system to employ it(in that case the deflector dish). They didn't put all this destructive energy potential into phaser banks after all.

[Singular Intellect]

One should note just because it may be possible to protect against a specific attack, doesn't mean implementing such protection on all their drones is practical or efficient. The expenditure of losing a couple of drones to physical attacks would be magnitudes smaller than the Borg attempting to equip all their drones with such protection.

Yea, since KE/momentum weapons are totally rare and virtually nobody uses them. Oh wait, what with that being the most basic form of attack any civilisation is bound to have. Current day mankind has had that kind of weapons for 15,000 years bare bones minimum but the Borg never ran into any species using that kind of weapon? The term NOT comes to mind.

Seriously, how often have we got to go through this?

By your own logic then the Borg being so successful in their universe indicates this isn't a serious problem for them.

[timewarp]

Hell, tell him that the empire could just ram all borg ships if they wanted to, due to their vast numerical and industrial edge. If he thinks shields will protect a cube from a 1.6 km hunk of pointy metal, just stop debating him, as he's got an IQ rivaled by a sack of mortar.

That, or mention that even if borg shields could absorb all of the turbolaser energy, it's still a moot point unless they have the ability to infinitely dissipate that energy. Shields get overloaded, and with the output of a heavy turbolaser, it would be over quickly.

[Batman]

Since their eventual plan involved using the Warp field to reduce the mass of the moon, and thus technobabble, not really.

Unless there's a means of quantifying the energy requirements for producing and maintaining a warp field, it seems unsubstantiated to suggest the energy necessary to do so is less than than the energy required to physically move the moon by traditional physics.

It's a pity I wasn't saying that. Since until you can show that using the Warp field to reduce the mass of the moon WILL use more energy then physically moving the moon, you have no case.

The Borg deflector dish weapon is a perfect example.

It's a perfect example of why people hate Trek technobabble weapons, all right.

The E-D had a much superior source of destructive energy than their normal weapon systems,

No it doesn't. It has a gadget they think can SOMEHOW defeat the Borg. Doesn't say beans about the actual energy output of the thing.

but they had to utilize another ship system to employ it(in that case the deflector dish). They didn't put all this destructive energy potential into phaser banks after all.

Because it was almost inevitably a technobabble effect, not a brute force one. One, I have to point out, that did not happen.

[Singular Intellect]

I take it then Batman you haven't watched that particular episode.

There was no technobabble effect, the effort was nothing more than the E-D using it's deflector dish to channel warp reactor energy at the cube. It was specifically stated in the episode that the deflector dish was the only system capable of handling that much output.

[Batman]

I take it then Batman you haven't watched that particular episode.
There was no technobabble effect, the effort was nothing more than the E-D using it's deflector dish to channel warp reactor energy at the cube. It was specifically stated in the episode that the deflector dish was the only system capable of handling that much output.

Which has what exactly got to do with wether or not it was a technobabble effect? All that means is that it needed all the Warp core energy to ACHIEVE the effect. Doesn't say beans about wether it was technobabble or brute force. Completely irrelevant to boot as it achieved nothing whatsoever so have fun quantifying it.

[Singular Intellect]

I take it then Batman you haven't watched that particular episode.
There was no technobabble effect, the effort was nothing more than the E-D using it's deflector dish to channel warp reactor energy at the cube. It was specifically stated in the episode that the deflector dish was the only system capable of handling that much output.

Which has what exactly got to do with wether or not it was a technobabble effect?

Because the whole project was declared a means of hitting the Borg cube with an energy blast. If you want to assert it was instead a technobabble effect, present your evidence.

Until then I will evaluate it as the engineers implementing it labelled it; a huge energy blast meant to inflict as much damage as possible.

All that means is that it needed all the Warp core energy to ACHIEVE the effect. Doesn't say beans about wether it was technobabble or brute force. Completely irrelevant to boot as it achieved nothing whatsoever so have fun quantifying it.

Unfortunately for you, they routinely referred to the discharge as a brute force attack, and even their chief engineer Geordi pointed out that it would hit the cube with more energy than their phasers or torpedoes could ever provide.

So either put up or shut up with your technobabble assertion.

[Batman]

I take it then Batman you haven't watched that particular episode.
There was no technobabble effect, the effort was nothing more than the E-D using it's deflector dish to channel warp reactor energy at the cube. It was specifically stated in the episode that the deflector dish was the only system capable of handling that much output.

Which has what exactly got to do with wether or not it was a technobabble effect?

Because the whole project was declared a means of hitting the Borg cube with an energy blast.

Feel free to quote to me the part where they said it would be a DET effect any time.

If you want to assert it was instead a technobabble effect, present your evidence.

I don't have to. Since all that says it is SOME sort of energy blast, providing evidence for it being a DET blast is up to YOU.

Until then I will evaluate it as the engineers implementing it labelled it; a huge energy blast meant to inflict as much damage as possible.

By means unstated. Are you simply stupid or willfully ignorant?

All that means is that it needed all the Warp core energy to ACHIEVE the effect. Doesn't say beans about wether it was technobabble or brute force. Completely irrelevant to boot as it achieved nothing whatsoever so have fun quantifying it.

Unfortunately for you, they routinely referred to the discharge as a brute force attack,

Blatant lie. The routinely referred to it USING a lot of energy, and they hoped it would do a lot of damage. This means the damage done needs to be closely related to the damage put into the attack why, exactly?

and even their chief engineer Geordi pointed out that it would hit the cube with more energy than their phasers or torpedoes could ever provide.

Which doesn't make it a brute force effect in any way shape or form I'm afraid.

So either put up or shut up with your technobabble assertion.

I already did.