Err...realistic genetics

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-23 08:23am

I noticed that a great deal of people are enthusiastic about genetic engineering, and talk about its many wonders and dangers. If I weren't so skeptical about genetic determinism (genes over free will) and using GE to "enhance" ourselves to an actual observable degree (i.e. intelligence), I'd be scared shitless of it.

Yes, I AM aware there's a GE thread up already, but it was kinda old and in my opinion people seemed to be too optimistic in their assumptions of how GE can help/harm us. I don't know, you guys probably know a hell of a lot more than I do about it, but I just want to see if I'm not crazy for thinking about it this way.

here's a site I found about the topic:

http://www.psrast.org/newgen.htm

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 11:18am

Sooo, what are you getting at exactly?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-23 11:29am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Sooo, what are you getting at exactly?

He's one of those "You shouldn't play God" idiots who thinks that genetic engineering is equivilant to the Nazi's attempts at creating a perfect, master race. He probably fails to realize the enourmous number of diseases that are genetic in nature, and can be cured only through genetic engineering.

UltraViolence83, if I'm wrong in my analysist of you, please say so and clearify your position for us. If I'm right, then you're a fucking moron.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-23 11:37am

Scared shitless of genetic engineering? Why?

Engineering is a process that allows us to, among other things, simplify systems while making them more efficient. Why...specifically...do you think that we should not or cannot do the same with our own bodies? Are you worried about our ability to do so without error, or what we will use that ability to do?

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-01-23 11:40am

So in your mind , free will and determination are more effective than the genetic factors of lineage and trait inheritance. This is not an unreasonable position to take. I view the entire concept much like a game of cards, in our current unaltered state you are dealt a genetic 'hand' and you must play that hand through the end of your days. Some are gifted with a straight , a flush or even a royal flush, and other are forced to make do with a pair or only an ace. Now here is where free will and determination come in, depending on your outlook you can eiether take the crappy hand and fold, do nothing and be resigned to your 'fate', or you can use it to the best of all possible advantages and attempt to 'bluff'(Not fake per se, but just use it to greater effect) your way through the game and win out.
Here's where geneitc engineering comes into play, with a smple tweak of the populations genetic structure you can level the playing field , EVERYONE gets the good hand, in fact if we wanted everyone could possibly have the best of all possible hands at any time. Free will and determination to be accomplished or successful still have just as much power as they did before(You can still be an apathetic genius, who is undermotivated) this time though your offspring have all the tool in the tool box. Through genetics we can refine the biological structures, given that we understand them throughly enough to tinker, that are responsible for Intelligence, reaction times and ablity to crosslink logic and creative processes. GenEng as the potential to revolutionize our entire species in ways we can barely contemplate. Already the prospect for vastly extended lifespans lurks just around the corner(Im talking 200-300 year life spans if not more, as aging is increasingly shown to be the result of just a collection of errors in our DNA and RNA strings. )
Am I getting at what you were talking about here ?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 12:02pm

It must be noted that the thought of genes controlling our minds is laughable in the extreme. Genes do not control as much of our lives as people imagine, true, they determine a lot of things about an individual, but nothing that can be considered "evil" or whatever.

The people who worry about GE and GM crops are as annoying to me as Fundies who don't understand evolution.

Lack of education, or rather, lack of the right education leads to fear.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-23 12:18pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It must be noted that the thought of genes controlling our minds is laughable in the extreme.

The really scary thing is, I recall hearing somewhere (WARNING: HERESAY ALERT) that lawyers have tried or want to try to use 'genetic predisposition to violent behaviour' as an argument to take the blame off of criminals convicted of violent crimes.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 12:21pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:It must be noted that the thought of genes controlling our minds is laughable in the extreme.
The really scary thing is, I recall hearing somewhere (WARNING: HERESAY ALERT) that lawyers have tried or want to try to use 'genetic predisposition to violent behaviour' as an argument to take the blame off of criminals convicted of violent crimes.

Already done...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2165715.stm

One guy was still jailed in America I think for using such a theory, but it was close. It's akin to the "following orders" excuse the Nazis used. This could be accepted though, who knows?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-01-23 12:30pm

I have a mild case of NF which is a genetic disorder usually inherted from the father. It can also be spontaneous. There are two versions, not so bad and your are fucked. I have the not so bad version and a very mild case of that one as it is. However, I still support genetic research that would eventually remove this from the human race. My dad has had two major surgerious to correct problems concerning this.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-23 12:32pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Already done...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2165715.stm

Jesus, drugs to suppress violent natures, it's a Clockwork Orange! I STILL don't want to see that become a viable defense. I'm half tempted to create a new thread to open the floor on using genetic predisposition as a defense to absolve responsibility for violent behaviour.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 12:34pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I have a mild case of NF which is a genetic disorder usually inherted from the father. It can also be spontaneous. There are two versions, not so bad and your are fucked. I have the not so bad version and a very mild case of that one as it is. However, I still support genetic research that would eventually remove this from the human race. My dad has had two major surgerious to correct problems concerning this.

Sorry to hear that. I hope to one day go into any one of a variety of fields after biology, one is genetic engineering and gene therapy.

While I don't spout "biotechwank" as some would call it, I do see the future getting better control of such diseases, maybe even a therapy cure for the indiviodual affected already (Darwin only knows how that is to be done, but you never know).

Cystic fibrosis is one of the many genetic diseases that we're getting somewhere with.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-23 12:35pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Already done...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2165715.stm
Jesus, drugs to suppress violent natures, it's a Clockwork Orange! I STILL don't want to see that become a viable defense. I'm half tempted to create a new thread to open the floor on using genetic predisposition as a defense to absolve responsibility for violent behaviour.

If so then I'll be glad to argue both sides e.g. insurance companies and their ability to discriminate based on polymerase chain reaction tests etc.

But for now I'm out for an Italian and drink with my dorm.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2003-01-23 03:21pm

What people don't realize is that the genome gives us minimal information with which to do egineering. It's like giving a mechanical egineer the parts list 747 and then asking him to make it fly faster, higher, and more fuel efficient by changing a few lines in the parts list. Real GE will be confined to small gene systems (i.e. say 5 or fewer genes) for the forseeable future ... it is just too hard to do it reliably when you start trying to work with the interactions of large gene systems.

I do see the future getting better control of such diseases, maybe even a therapy cure for the indiviodual affected already (Darwin only knows how that is to be done, but you never know).
Two prime candidates (both having been used in limited amounts):
1. Retrovirii. Take a virus, insert the gene you want to give your patient and infect them. Make sure your virus CANNOT replicate en vivo. This works when you need only a tiny fraction of the target cells to have the gene in question.
2. Tissue replantation. Most notably bone marrow. Remove bone marrow from the patient. Egineer the cells in the lab (virii or chemical means), replant it in the patient when finished.

These would mainly work on people who are missing a specific chemical (i.e. diabetics, some genetic depressives, etc.) In the case of developmental problems you need to correct the problem before it is expressed (like say with extensive retrovirii treatments) or make your corrections conventionally.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-24 01:04am

Pilot: You ARE wrong in your analysist of me! I'm not against the uses of GE for helping people with genetic diseases and shit like that.

Lagmonster: The human body shouldn't be thought of with "efficiency", as though it were made in an assembly line. Organsisms aren't very efficient.

If you mean less prone to genetic disorders, sure then. What scares me is the misunderstanding of genetics that people could accept as truth. Also, I wouldn't want my kids to be smarter than normal humans. It would be more of a curse than a gift.

Sokar: "Simple tweak?" I don't think it's that easy, if at all possible for people to do that. Who the hell would want to live that long, anyway? If we tried to make our kids 'genetically superior,' all that may happen is that they have a tag to carry around saying they're better than everyone else, quite possibly the genes will react in unpredicted ways, screwing them worse than normal people, too. I don't think that people would all get the chance to do all that, as well. If it is possible to enhance someone to detectable levels, they may not be accepted into society. People dislike difference. Imagine if a small group were thought to be better than "normals!"

Tharkun: I agree with everything you said.

Valdemar: I wasn't believing in the idea of genetic determinism, it's the idea itself which is the problem, like in Gattaca. People could be conditioned to accept the idea their genes control their lives, THAT is the biggest problem here. I agree with everything else, however. With GE we CAN clean ourselves up, eliminate non-complex diseases and so forth.

Everyone: Sorry, I should have made myself much more clear. I was very, very tired when I wrote that.
I'm for GE to help with diseases, or grow limbs in a clone vat for people, but I don't like the idea of choosing traits for your offspring. They could hate YOU instead of themeselves if they don't like their eye color...

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-24 08:22am

On a related note, anyone who is interested in the field of genetics and also likes 1984 should watch Gattaca, a seriously underrated Anglo-American film with superb acting and music. It's not what I suspect we'll end up as, but it's the type of paranoid dystopia of the genetically elite (not monetary elite) that people should bare in mind to avoid.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-24 08:26am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:On a related note, anyone who is interested in the field of genetics and also likes 1984 should watch Gattaca, a seriously underrated Anglo-American film with superb acting and music. It's not what I suspect we'll end up as, but it's the type of paranoid dystopia of the genetically elite (not monetary elite) that people should bare in mind to avoid.

...Gotta love the cars and '40's-ish styles, too.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-24 08:33am

Oh yeah, another movie to look for is Starship Troopers. Of course the story has nothing to do with genetics, but look close enough and you'll notice every white person has green eyes, and perfect teeth. This could be an example of people using GE stupidly, for cultural fad fashions. (Like how we've got supermarket blondes and the such now.)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-24 10:10am

I say we go forth.

Though if given most of how we handle these thing...we'll have Chicks with bigger natural boobs and perfect sets of teeth. A tad frivolous but stillnot as bad as what we do with plastic surgery. Seriously the abilty to improve ourselves physically is something we should throw into the wind because we want to make sure we aren't playing "God".

As for the lawyers bit...not even fazed given that their occupation is to find loopholes.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-01-24 10:32pm

Though I have a great dislike of silicone boobies, I'd prefer truly natural big boobs. They just wouldn't be so novel if everyone had them....Besides, some chicks look good with small tits.

You know if most people looked the same there would be more freaks. Yay. Goth chicks are hot.