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Sardaukar wrote:

Vympel wrote:You're forgetting maintenance of these droids. You can't just leave a combat vehicle unused for ages and expect it to be in perfect order when you get back.

The life expectancy for the droids is probably not high enough to warrant too much maintenance.
We see a line of droids being produced in the film (3po's batch) that is sent into battle a few hours or so later, and most, if not all are destroyed by those wonderful wonderful LAATs (finnaly developed an appreciation for thoe suckers).

Yes that's one example- every single droid was being thrown into battle right then and there. You also have the Episode I example- in that case the droids had no expectation of quick destruction; they were a permanent garrison.

Vympel wrote: Yes that's one example- every single droid was being thrown into battle right then and there. You also have the Episode I example- in that case the droids had no expectation of quick destruction; they were a permanent garrison.

The majority of the droids on Naboo were probably just sitting in MTTs though.

Yes- but the ICS states that aboard the Landing Ships are extensive workshops 'especially' for the individual battle droids, which require repair (obvious) and more interestingly, 'realignment' in between 'battle engagements'.

That's what clones don't seem to require-

- spare parts for maintenance
- realignment after battle (basically, the passage implies that whenever they engage in battle they get a bit 'outta whack' and need maintenance). I don't see why battle is the only criterion for maintenance. If the droids are walking around, and on duty, they're bound to get outta whack also- after all, the onyl extra thing they're doing in battle is firing their weapons. You also can't keep any sophisticated piece of hardware in storage for too long and expect it to work- it needs to be brought up to spec, maintained, tinkered with etc ...

I don't have the TPMICS. I will have to get it sooner or later I suppose!

Maybe the parts from dead battledroids that are recycled need the "re-aligning"?

Hmm- that would come under repair, wouldn't it?

I guess so, but the maybe the ke from blaster bolts is what puts various parts out of alignment?
Who knows.
I am going to buy the TPMICS on the weekend.

I've gotta buy all three Visual Dictionaries.

Bean's got a point; couldn't cost-effectiveness play a part in limited sentience of droid armies? It may be cheaper in the long run to spend their time/recources on making losts of simple droids rather than a few really powerful tactical geniuses. Efficienty is alsways a straight clacualtion with battle performance; a droid with 10 times the 'perfromance' ratings of a cheaper droid may not make 10 times as many kills, which means the cheaper droids win against the stonger ones in two groups of equal cost. Also, targeting and reflexes have little to do with free-thinking, so the former might be the bigger issue on the battle field.

"Yes- but the ICS states that aboard the Landing Ships are extensive workshops 'especially' for the individual battle droids, which require repair (obvious)"

I hope that you do not think that replacing the arm of a wounded clone
is cheaper than replacing the arm of a damaged droid.

"That's what clones don't seem to require-
- spare parts for maintenance"
That depends.Star Wars technology seems quite sturdy and certainly their materials are much more advanced than ours.I doubt they have to replace the joints of the legs of a droid every six moths for wearing problems.

"You also can't keep any sophisticated piece of hardware in storage for too long and expect it to work- it needs to be brought up to spec, maintained, tinkered with etc ..."

And clones also require medical checks etc.

Besides,if a droid is usually kept in storage except for maintenance and battles "wear and tear" problems could even not become an issue before ageing start to become a serious problem for a clone.

Admiral Piett wrote:Besides,if a droid is usually kept in storage except for maintenance and battles "wear and tear" problems could even not become an issue before ageing start to become a serious problem for a clone.

Hmmm. But what is the average "lifetime" of a battle droid compared to a clone trooper?

Probably a lot shorter given the expendability of the droid.

I mean the Clone trooper is probably more apt to say take cover vs a droid which is more than likely made to stand and shot.

I mean let's say the Clone is only 2-3 years at most in constant warfare...I see the Droid being around maybe a battle or two.

I think in the short run, droids are better. They're cheaper and there's more fo them. So when you need an army quick (Trade Federation, Separatists), they're a good choice.

However, in the long run, clones are better. They can learn from their mistakes, which droids cannot (or are not allowed to). An army of clone veterans would decimate a much larger bunch of Battle Droids.

Ghost Rider wrote:Probably a lot shorter given the expendability of the droid.

I mean the Clone trooper is probably more apt to say take cover vs a droid which is more than likely made to stand and shot.

I mean let's say the Clone is only 2-3 years at most in constant warfare...I see the Droid being around maybe a battle or two.

If that's true then cheap unit cost may be outweighed by the replacement costs.

And the learning thing of course.

Ghost Rider wrote:Probably a lot shorter given the expendability of the droid.

I mean the Clone trooper is probably more apt to say take cover vs a droid which is more than likely made to stand and shot.

I repeat:have you seen AOTC? I have not noticed clones taking cover more than the droids.

neoolong wrote: And the learning thing of course.

AI capable of learning (at limited levels of course) are experimented today.
Better,a battledroid could run endless battle simulation in its brain (if it is a model with a brain installed) while on racks.Something that clone could not for example.

Admiral Piett wrote:

neoolong wrote: And the learning thing of course.

AI capable of learning (at limited levels of course) are experimented today.
Better,a battledroid could run endless battle simulation in its brain (if it is a model with a brain installed) while on racks.Something that clone could not for example.

But did the droids used exhibit this characteristic?

pecker wrote:I think in the short run, droids are better. They're cheaper and there's more fo them. So when you need an army quick (Trade Federation, Separatists), they're a good choice.

However, in the long run, clones are better. They can learn from their mistakes, which droids cannot (or are not allowed to). An army of clone veterans would decimate a much larger bunch of Battle Droids.

This only if they have those built in limitations.Otherwise they could roll off the production line with decades worth of military experience in their brain.
They could run battle simulations when not in use,further increasing their experience.
No matter how do you play with it,droids would be far better than clones or recruits in all circumstances (except maybe guerrilla and special ops).
Probably the anti droid bias is the only reason for their built in weaknesses
which make clones a viable option.Otherwise veteran clones would get their asses kicked by droids every day of the week.

But why give droids such experience when it would take years of knowledge to accrue.

Seriously 20 years of worthwhile knowledge isn't something one can just dredge up...and isn the end less cost efficent than just plugging a droid with apoint and click kill program.

neoolong wrote: But did the droids used exhibit this characteristic?

Ask to the beer cans salesmen who run the trade federation.I am merely stating their potential,which is confirmed by R2D2 and IG 88.Then,if those idiots prefer stupid droids for the sake of their paranoia it is their fault.

Ghost Rider wrote:But why give droids such experience when it would take years of knowledge to accrue.

Seriously 20 years of worthwhile knowledge isn't something one can just dredge up...and isn the end less cost efficent than just plugging a droid with apoint and click kill program.

The knowledge could be implanted in their computer memories and continously updated.Slighty different version could be used to solve the "too much predictable" problem(which frankly is an issue blown out of proportions in anyway).

Admiral Piett wrote:

neoolong wrote: But did the droids used exhibit this characteristic?

Ask to the beer cans salesmen who run the trade federation.I am merely stating their potential,which is confirmed by R2D2 and IG 88.Then,if those idiots prefer stupid droids for the sake of their paranoia it is their fault.

True. But in terms of the specific droids used my point is valid.

Clones kneel in AOTC

Vympel wrote:Clones kneel in AOTC

Are you referring to those who advanced against the droids in a straight line during the battle?

What were they supposed to do ... strafe like they were in Doom or something? They engaged the army on a flat plain, they had supporting armor and air and lots of targets. I suppose you expect them to jump up and down like it's Counterstrike or something .... soldiers in reality do the following things

1- follow orders
2- duck
3- lie prone
4- shoot

that's it.