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Ralin wrote: 2019-12-21 10:08am

ray245 wrote: 2019-12-21 10:00am Way to miss the point on why people had issues.

I try to be charitable

Enjoy the movie all you want, but trying to over-defend a movie is not a good idea imo. The next few months is going to be interesting, as I think the SW fandoms will become polarised even more as people who enjoyed ROS and people who hated ROS will over-compensate their position.

My opinion of ROS is that this is not a 10/10 movie like what some fans are saying, but neither is it a 1/10 movie that some haters are saying. It's going to take them before the fandom can acknowledge the movie's good points and bad points.

This is what happened to the prequels, as we have fans who go online screaming how they were the best SW movie ever, and fans who hated it said they were the worse movie ever made upon release, and it took years before both groups of fans realised both their position were utterly silly.

"Haters"? I've always found that a juvenile word. People can dislike stuff, that makes them have an opinion which is as valid as everyone elses.

Ace Pace wrote:Rose was not the only reason to like TLJ

Why would Rose, a secondary character, be a reason to like TLJ? She's not a reason to dislike TLJ either, even if I find her to be one of the worst characters in SW.

Mange wrote: 2019-12-21 10:45am "Haters"? I've always found that a juvenile word. People can dislike stuff, that makes them have an opinion which is as valid as everyone elses.

I use haters the same way I use fanboys, in the sense that they are terms best used to described people who will opt for the most extreme spectrum when it comes to evaluating a movie.

They have a right to have an opinion, and you need to respect their right to have an opinion. But that is not the same as respecting their judgement. It's the same way you respect someone's right to vote, but not necessarily respecting their judgement in how they vote.

I don't think ROS is a good movie, but it is not exactly a 1/10 movie either.

RoS was not a bad film, it has two key problems way i see it.

It spends some time with 'Damage control' (revising The last jedi) This can be best summed up with how much Rose's role was reduced, all that praise how she was the first asian lead, being a breakout character etc. If you never saw TLJ you wouldn't think out of anything of her with how much in the background she was, plot irrelevance and a reset realtionship with Finn, who himself feels romantically connected with Rey.

It's no coincidence her diminished role goes hand in hand with all the other leftover elements of TLJ that are discarded or changed given the character was Rian Johnson's creation. J.J is bordering on being petty with the extent of these changes.

And there is simply too much to cram in, the number of wipes from one scene to the next was getting a bit farcical, it's a shame as there was some promising material.

I liked the idea that Rey is a legacy character from a villain, Palpatine as a final arc villain makes sense given he has been there from the start from the Prequel trilogy, and the OT, finding out you were not only part of a tyrant's bloodline but will perhaps come back his descendants and feed on their force energy as he created them soley to drain on them could work. It can't though work in a film where a good chunk of it is spent revising details and introducing an entirely new plot. Of course it was done with Luke and that was executed well in the Empire Strikes back, it had the pacing, structure and right time to reveal it. Something Rey's arc didn't have given the reset it had in TLJ and a re-reset it had here.

Unfortunately this new trilogy is seemingly the only one that resets itself after each film, the PT's built up (even attack of the clones of all films!) and the OT. This trilogy is disorganized and that is a shame because they have (or should have) a team that learnt past lessons, seen what works and build on it. It's not like they don't have resources, Disney is the 2nd largest entertainment company in the world.

I personally think this trilogy should had been four films, but more importantly planned out, RoS and TLJ prove there is a clashing production as well as creative ideas, add to it that Solo bombed (which i think led to RoS being more fan catering)

Now that the core saga is over maybe we'll see Disney be a little ruthless with changes.

Korgeta wrote: 2019-12-21 01:28pm Unfortunately this new trilogy is seemingly the only one that resets itself after each film, the PT's built up (even attack of the clones of all films!) and the OT. This trilogy is disorganized and that is a shame because they have (or should have) a team that learnt past lessons, seen what works and build on it. It's not like they don't have resources, Disney is the 2nd largest entertainment company in the world.

Apparently they did learn lesson from the past. What they've learnt from the negative feedback about the prequels is "more puppets!", "less CGI!" , " more sand planets!", "more reference to OT imagery!" and "course-correct in every movie that you do".

This is what happens when a company listened to feedback, but have no one creative at the helm to filter stupid feedback from good feedback. The producer of Star Wars, Kennedy showed her limitations as a person who never bothered to get into the nitty-gritty bits of actual story-telling.

To run a company like Star Wars, you need to have someone at the helm that have a creative vision. You don't need a clear and detailed plot outline, but you need to have a clear creative vision on what story do you actually want to tell. If you have no story to tell, you should not be in charge and pass the baton to someone who wants to take care of it.

ray245 wrote: 2019-12-21 01:36pm This is what happens when a company listened to feedback, but have no one creative at the helm to filter stupid feedback from good feedback. The producer of Star Wars, Kennedy showed her limitations as a person who never bothered to get into the nitty-gritty bits of actual story-telling.

To run a company like Star Wars, you need to have someone at the helm that have a creative vision. You don't need a clear and detailed plot outline, but you need to have a clear creative vision on what story do you actually want to tell. If you have no story to tell, you should not be in charge and pass the baton to someone who wants to take care of it.

Absolutely, it's important to have someone who can filter out ranging from 'Return of more practical and gritty effects' to 'Bring back leia's dress' The mandalorian shows you can abide with feedback but maintain that creative vision and clear plan on storytelling, that could easily had been 'Boba fett: the series' but they didn't. It shows star wars is liked and still well received but on a movie level with this trilogy it's been a bit up and down.

As for kennedy, she shouldn't had been given the renewed contract till this was done with and everyone can survey how the modern franchise is faring so far, She seems too focused on winning the hearts of social media groups like twitter, or at least politics such as 'force is female.'

Korgeta wrote: 2019-12-21 01:59pm Absolutely, it's important to have someone who can filter out ranging from 'Return of more practical and gritty effects' to 'Bring back leia's dress' The mandalorian shows you can abide with feedback but maintain that creative vision and clear plan on storytelling, that could easily had been 'Boba fett: the series' but they didn't. It shows star wars is liked and still well received but on a movie level with this trilogy it's been a bit up and down.

That's the difference between having someone who is a director/writer in charge of a production and someone who isn't. Jon Favreau seems better at filtering out good feedback from bad, or he is smart enough to tune all the feedback out when he's making a tv show.

As for kennedy, she shouldn't had been given the renewed contract till this was done with and everyone can survey how the modern franchise is faring so far, She seems too focused on winning the hearts of social media groups like twitter, or at least politics such as 'force is female.'

The thing is, you can do all those stuff well. You can do politics well in a franchise like Star Wars. The OT and the PT under Lucas was constantly trying to critique the idea of authoritarianism in many forms. A movie about a bunch of raggedy underdogs fighting a big evil empire during the Vietnam war? Gee, I wonder what's that mean!

A good story-teller can include politics within the narrative and the audience will happily follow along. A bad story-teller will botch it up and undermine progressive movements.

Look at how well the ST treated the POC characters in the long-run. Asian actress? Relegated to the background. A Black former stormtrooper with a potential to be a Jedi? A comic-relief.

Btw something intresting I heard during discussion we had about the movie at my school, could it be possible that all Sith cultist Palpatine had at his base were in fact clones of him.

Lord Revan wrote: 2019-12-21 02:26pm Btw something intresting I heard during discussion we had about the movie at my school, could it be possible that all Sith cultist Palpatine had at his base were in fact clones of him.

Well, that would be the only person he trusted... However, the minion we see repairing Kylo's helmet before he left the planet was definitely non-Human. Not sure which species it was, honestly, but the Sith did twist and breed their own Minions.

However, remember Palpatine had his own Royal Guard. He had his own spy network, his own attendants and secondary apprentices, like the Brothers and Sisters. There's also the fact we don't KNOW how long those cultists had been on that planet, waiting for a Master Sith to return before Palpatine found them.

loomer wrote: 2019-12-21 07:50am I liked a lot of what TLJ tried to do and I still enjoyed ROS. The secret, as I keep saying, is to drink heavily during it.

No, the secret is to realize some of us can't drink heavily because of health issues, you dumb repetitive twat. If this isn't meant as joke, its an indictment of the film. If it is meant humorously, it got old the second time you said it.

Regarding JJ Abrams and Kelly Marie Tran:

Director Abrams then paid Tran a great compliment when he singled her out as perhaps the best part of the legacy left behind by The Last Jedi and its director Rian Johnson. Abrams said "I was grateful to Rian Johnson for so many things that he did but the greatest for me was casting Kelly Marie."

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-kelly- ... n-johnson/

Abrams is very good a PR because he sure as hell doesn't look like he respected Kelly Marie Tran at all in his actual script and movie. If this is not obvious that JJ Abrams had no actual respect for Rian Johnson, I'm not sure what else will be.

Formless wrote: 2019-12-21 03:01pm

loomer wrote: 2019-12-21 07:50am I liked a lot of what TLJ tried to do and I still enjoyed ROS. The secret, as I keep saying, is to drink heavily during it.

No, the secret is to realize some of us can't drink heavily because of health issues, you dumb repetitive twat. If this isn't meant as joke, its an indictment of the film. If it is meant humorously, it got old the second time you said it.

Fuck off, cunt. I regularly enjoy mediocre to good movies with a bottle of whiskey and will continue to do so, whether you find it repetitive or an indictment of those films, and certainly regardless of whether you can't. I also plan to take a bottle with me when my friends and I go to see the new Jumanji, which will - just like the first - elevate it from a probably pretty okay film to a really good time. Ordinarily, I'd be more sympathetic, knowing the sting of disability myself, but since you came in hot I don't feel a particular compulsion to.

Would you prefer if I mocked you mercilessly for encouraging people to drink and drive late at night when many of us are going to be watching the film? Because I can think of any number of reasons that your constant repetition of the same advice is fucking asinine. Any movie you have to watch while drunk to appreciate is probably terrible. And there are many theaters that will kick you out if you bring alcohol in (if only because drunkards are obnoxious, or for legal reasons)

This isn't even about me. I intend to watch it after it gets to the second run theaters, if at all. TLJ left that bad of a taste in my mouth. You watch it drunk if you want. Just stop insisting its fine when your reason makes you sound drunk right now.

Formless wrote: 2019-12-21 09:32pm Would you prefer if I mocked you mercilessly for encouraging people to drink and drive late at night when many of us are going to be watching the film? Because I can think of any number of reasons that your constant repetition of the same advice is fucking asinine. Any movie you have to watch while drunk to appreciate is probably terrible. And there are many theaters that will kick you out if you bring alcohol in (if only because drunkards are obnoxious, or for legal reasons)

This isn't even about me. I intend to watch it after it gets to the second run theaters, if at all. TLJ left that bad of a taste in my mouth. You watch it drunk if you want. Just stop insisting its fine when your reason makes you sound drunk right now.

It's called a taxi, uber, or friend who doesn't drink, fuckhead. It's not my fault you can't imagine how you might get from a midnight screening to your house without driving. Also, I haven't been insisting it's fine - I've been brutally realistic in my appraisal. It's an okay film that's fun to watch drunk. I could go into all the things that don't work, that do work, etc, but mostly I just want to convey watchability, and there it is: It's okay, watch it drunk as a bad movie and you'll enjoy it, otherwise it's just okay and 'just okay' is pretty underwhelming.

Let me fill you in on a secret: Many moviegoers are drunk or stoned, even for very good films.

I was expecting to hate it, but I ended up liking it a lot. By far the best movie of the sequel trilogy.

Too bad the prequels were never this good.

I called the Rey Palpatine thing years ago when people were still expecting her to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-10-11 04:43pm

Batman wrote: 2017-10-10 07:11pm She and somebody are. Given the relative ease with which a completely untrained Rey beat Kylo's ass Luke might be referring to Snoke.

Or Palpatine. Which would make the Rey Palpatine theory even better.

Come to think of it, if Rey is the Emperor's granddaughter, wouldn't that make her his rightful heir? Could Episode IX end with her uniting what's left of the First Order and the New Republic into a second (and benevolent) Galactic Empire?

Okay, so I wasn't totally on the money about all of it.

I think I enjoyed the prequels quite a bit more, myself.

Has anyone pointed out all the similarities between this and Dark Empire yet? Exogol is essentially Byss, for example.

Galvatron wrote: 2019-12-21 10:52pm Has anyone pointed out all the similarities between this and Dark Empire yet? Exogol is essentially Byss, for example.

Yeah, a few folk. This was a pretty big love letter to a good chunk of the better EU material, but I wonder how much of that was due to them scrambling to replace Snoke with limited time and just grabbing whatever was lying around.

I wonder if there was an original Snoke. He could have been like the original Jorus C'baoth, then killed and cloned to be the Emperor's plaything.

Galvatron wrote: 2019-12-21 10:45pm I was expecting to hate it, but I ended up liking it a lot. By far the best movie of the sequel trilogy.

Too bad the prequels were never this good.

I called the Rey Palpatine thing years ago when people were still expecting her to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-10-11 04:43pm

Batman wrote: 2017-10-10 07:11pm She and somebody are. Given the relative ease with which a completely untrained Rey beat Kylo's ass Luke might be referring to Snoke.

Or Palpatine. Which would make the Rey Palpatine theory even better.

Come to think of it, if Rey is the Emperor's granddaughter, wouldn't that make her his rightful heir? Could Episode IX end with her uniting what's left of the First Order and the New Republic into a second (and benevolent) Galactic Empire?

Okay, so I wasn't totally on the money about all of it.

Well, based on her new, Yellow Saber, I'm thinking she will at least balance the Force. TBH, I'd have taken another name as well, Palpatine has too much negative weight behind it. Rather like you rarely hear of a kid named Adolf anymore (unless the parents are blatant Neo-Nazi). Skywalker, on the other hand, is the name of Heroes.

It sounded to me like Rey would have simply become another meat puppet for her grandfather if she'd taken his offer and gone through with the ritual. If that's how the Sith do it, is it possible that Palpatine (and every other Rule of Two master and apprentice before him) was really just Darth Bane in a new body?

Like a Russian nesting doll with Bane at the center, masterminding the whole thing for a thousand years.

Galvatron wrote: 2019-12-21 11:11pm It sounded to me like Rey would have simply become another meat puppet for her grandfather if she'd taken his offer and gone through with the ritual. If that's how the Sith do it, is it possible that Palpatine (and every other Rule of Two master and apprentice before him) was really just Darth Bane in a new body?

Like a Russian nesting doll with Bane at the center, masterminding the whole thing for a thousand years.

The way he talked about it, it sounded more like Palpatine wouldn't be possessing her but that his personality, his worldview, his goals, stuff that he probably would have described as his essence would have overlaid and in many ways replaced hers. Not true survival, but it would ensure he lived on in a 'my successor continues what I started' sort of way. Palpatine wouldn't have gone through something like that with Plagueis because he was already a Sith and had internalized that worldview.

Which is why he was pretty quick to jettison that idea when he realized he had an opportunity to actually literally live on with a healthy body and his full powers.

On that note, I am glad to see that at least something came of all that stuff about cheating death and living forever talk.

So, is the First Order gone or what? All we really saw was the command ship and Palpatine's fleet destroyed, right? What about the rest of galaxy where the FO held clear dominance?

Is this going to turn into the old EU 2.0 where bickering FO warlords are fighting over remnants of their territory while the New New Republic mops them up for the next 20 years?

They gave us those shots of First Order ships going kaboom in various orbits to try and suggest the FO is done and dusted.

Yeah, that certainly leaves less wiggle room than the ending of ROTJ did. Still, I expect them to try.