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Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-09 06:48pm
by Adam Reynolds
Lord Revan wrote:Though you want to avoid the pitfall of making the villain always lie, a good writer uses truths, half-truths and outright lies to his/her advantage.
That was something that was done nicely in the SW prequels with Palpatine. All of his manipulations involving Anakin relied on Palpatine telling the part of the truth that helped him while concealing that which did not.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-09 08:47pm
by Lord Revan
Adam Reynolds wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:Though you want to avoid the pitfall of making the villain always lie, a good writer uses truths, half-truths and outright lies to his/her advantage.
That was something that was done nicely in the SW prequels with Palpatine. All of his manipulations involving Anakin relied on Palpatine telling the part of the truth that helped him while concealing that which did not.
It helped that Palpatine had a true goal within the story and the intention to achive that goal, instead of having a stated goal but really just picking "what's the most evil action I can do here" and doing that.

because of that Palpatine is capable of telling the truth or doing "good" things if doing so will serve his goals, thus making him a stronger character and more instresting as a villain.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-10 08:05pm
by Zeropoint
A "Dark Kantian" who is compelled to "do evil, regardless of its utility"--and is self-aware enough to struggle with the consequences and resent the compulsion--could be the basis of an interesting tragic villain.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-10 08:47pm
by Lord Revan
Zeropoint wrote:A "Dark Kantian" who is compelled to "do evil, regardless of its utility"--and is self-aware enough to struggle with the consequences and resent the compulsion--could be the basis of an interesting tragic villain.
If done well sure, done poorly it will just seem like a blatant handwave to make a shallow character "deep".

On the flip side, you can have the naive too trusting hero, but a one who is aware of this failing and trying to correct it without becoming a total cynic that can also be a basis for an intresting character if done well.

In the matter it doesn't matter if the character is good or bad, just how well it's writen.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-11 05:58pm
by Zeropoint
It all comes down to that, doesn't it? A writer could take the best concept ever and ruin it with crappy writing, or the dumbest concept ever and redeem it with good writing.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-11 06:11pm
by Lord Revan
Zeropoint wrote:It all comes down to that, doesn't it? A writer could take the best concept ever and ruin it with crappy writing, or the dumbest concept ever and redeem it with good writing.
to a degree yes, there's some concepts that are simply unsalvageble and not even the best writers in the universe could make them good, though such cases are quite rare and a good writers generally know not use them at all. That said it's always possible to ruin a good idea with bad execution as it's impossible to make a foolproof concept (fools are far too inventive for that to work).

But in the end it all boils down to the execution be it writing, acting or the artwork (depending on the medium), good execution can elevate a weak concept into something better then it seems at first glance and poor execution can ruin even a strong concept.

Re: Good=boring? I don't think so.

Posted: 2016-02-12 04:04am
by Zixinus
Zeropoint wrote:It all comes down to that, doesn't it? A writer could take the best concept ever and ruin it with crappy writing, or the dumbest concept ever and redeem it with good writing.
And what makes a good writer is good craft and able to use it appropriately. One such thing is the ability to tell when something is a bad idea or not, as well as knowing how to exploit an idea (such as making a character dark and broody). Storytelling isn't a complete mystery, there is a lot stuff we know how to do from experience and analysis that exists pretty much since humankind tells stories.