StarDestroyer.Net BBS

NecronLord wrote:Mmm. I've seen TIE/ln (presumably TIE/line or some such) used to reffer to 'TIE fighter [Grey]' on SWTC, but I have also seen TIE/In (Interceptor) used elsewhere. I expect Mengsk copied TIE/ln down wrong, mind, but still...

No. On page fourteen of Death Star, the word used is "TIE/In". Capital 'I', no "wings" next to it.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Two things quick, since I don't have alot of time.

The "one hundred TIEs" thing early in the book is almost certainly a typo, given that later in the book they mention 120 TIEs and (later) over a thousand TIEs being deployed in defense of the station.

As for the SSDs, I have the quote somewhere, but its possibly implied to be something other than Executors... they seemed to suggest they were defintely "current production" models or some s uch.

Oh well, I might get around to posting quotes later.

Maybe they meant 100 TIE squadrons?

- The history of the Death Star

I'm a bit confused, so according to this novel, was it the Death Star or the proof-of-concept prototype which was seen at the end of ROTS?

That one was the DS. The proof-of-concept prototype was built at a later time.

VT-16 wrote:That one was the DS. The proof-of-concept prototype was built at a later time.

Ah, I see. Thanks VT!

Could anyone provide a quote that states the output of the reactor is equal to weeks output of several main sequence stars? Main sequence star output anything from 10^22W to 10^33W. It seems obvious that the upper range was used since it specifically compares the reactor to three main sequence stars as in just one is not good enough. That wouldn't really make sense if they took something from lower or mid range since then there would be main sequence stars that can match reactor's power alone and within a second.

Note that "several" is defined in the dictionary as more than two or three, but less than "many". It's very imprecise, really ...

How the hell did I come from several to three? Ahh the human brain.

VT-16 wrote:That one was the DS. The proof-of-concept prototype was built at a later time.

Yet the book talks about assembling the structure of the station over Despayre. Which was complete at the end of ROTS. They also go from doing that to being operational in the span of two tours of duty for the navy.

Oooh, maybe there is a retcon? :o

From what I've been able to compile from working on the Wookieepedia article, the Death Star's construction was first begun in 21 BBY, by the Geonosians under orders from Darth Sidious. By 19 BBY, Poggle hoped that his people's constribution to its construction would prove itself benefitial in the future. Upon the collapse of the CIS, the new Empire takes over Separatist assets, including the incomplete station. This is what I've gained from the old Leland Chee timeline on his blog.

Then the construction goes on and off for 17 years, with an effective building time of 2 additional years, according to the DSTJ.

Where does the new novel and the prototype fit into all that?

VT-16 wrote:Oooh, maybe there is a retcon?

From what I've been able to compile from working on the Wookieepedia article, the Death Star's construction was first begun in 21 BBY, by the Geonosians under orders from Darth Sidious. By 19 BBY, Poggle hoped that his people's constribution to its construction would prove itself benefitial in the future. Upon the collapse of the CIS, the new Empire takes over Separatist assets, including the incomplete station. This is what I've gained from the old Leland Chee timeline on his blog.

Then the construction goes on and off for 17 years, with an effective building time of 2 additional years, according to the DSTJ.

Where does the new novel and the prototype fit into all that?

The novel has Tarkin recieveing the plans from the Emperor after Palpatine has sat on them for a few years and starting construction, with Tarkin grousing about how the Emperor initially dismissed it when he and Sienar presented it, but after a few years it became Palpatine's idea and the whole thing looked much more attractive once it was his idea instead of Tarkin's.

I'd say that what we saw at the end of ROTS was the prototype. That would explain the fact that the curvature was wrong and that Tarkin built the thing from the get go nicely. Maybe the Geat Weapon became the Eye of Palpatine or something.

Flagg wrote: Maybe they meant 100 TIE squadrons?

Maybe, but we know the DS had at least 7000 tIE fighters as it is, and the 1000 TIEs released later had no indication as being close to their max numbers.

Besides, later on in the book there's implication they might have ALOT more pilots..

Ah, just a bunch of fun highlights from the novel:

Page 14

However, given the surface-to-vaccuum defenses, the number of fighters, turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedoe banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices , no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat.

This implies that it VASTLY outguns any ship that ever existed. Ironically it seems to also take the same page out of the ANH novel and Radio drama, by implying that far MORE weapons types than just turbolasers and ion cannons were present on the Death STar. This may be an effort to explain away the apparent tiny numbers.

Also note that ion cannons and "charged parrticle" weapons are treated as not being the same thing.

Page 27

The Port Heavy Blaster Station CO, Captain Nast Hoberd, was a drinking buddy with Lieutenant Colonel Luah....

...

White-glove a surface in any of the six turbolaser turrets or two heavy ion cannon turrets, and there wouldn't be a speck of dirt.


....

You didn't get to shoot the big guns unless you had plenty of practice shooting hte little ones.

As we can see, the authors decided to adhere to the DK book's description of ISD armament rather than the WEG/WOTC sources. This may well be a first. Though they do still stick with the "Imperial' and "Super-" class nonclemature, but I guess you can't have everything.

Page 28

Tenn hoped to be transferred, one day, to one of the four new Super-class Star Destroyers that were currently being built. Those were monsters indeed, eight or ten times the size of the Imperial-class ships, which were themselves over a kilometer and a half in length. The SSDs looked like nothign so much as pie-shaped wedges sliced out of an asteroid and covered with armament. Perhaps if he called in the right favours at the right time, he might wrangle an assignment on the next one scheduled to roll ponderously out of the Kuat Drive Yards. He still had a few good years left in him, and who better to run the big battery on one of those monster ships than him?

The aforementioned "eight to ten times" sized SSDs that cannot be Executors. Note that "size" is a bit vague, it could refer to mass/voluem or length, but the context here seems to imply length, meaning that these vessels would be somewhere between 12.8 and 16 kilometers in length.

Its also worth noting that the implied appearance of the ships look more like ISDs rather than the Executor (no fantail is mentioned), which may further reinforce the distinction.

Likewise, it is interesting to note they are KDY designs, but that it implies it is not a new class and that ships of this type already exist. Tenn mentions that "four new" SSDs are currently being built, but he then later mentions "The next one scheduled to roll out" from KDY, which as I said indicates that vessels of that type are already in servicec. We cannot say how many, but the low numbers being built (four or so) would perhaps suggest there are either aren't very many, or there are too many.

Its also possible these are Mandators, although that's unconfirmed.

Lastly, it is worrth noting that Tenn also figures that these ships carry similar-sized "big turret" type armaments like ISDs,

Page 28

Tenn was looking forward to hearing the generators whine as the capacitors loaded, followed by the heavy vibrations and scorched-air smell as the ion cannons and lasers spoke, spewing hard energy across empty space to destroy the practice targets.

The mention of capacitors is worth noting, because it reinforces the notion that ISDS and other warshisp can direct nearly all their reactor output into weapons (This has been called into question before, and its worth noting how a capacitor is meant to work.)

Liekwise, the authors seem to go with the idea that ion cannons ARE capable of inflicting physical damage, ,rather than behaving how WEG claims they do (disabling ships, but no physical damage.)


Page 159

If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequencee stars;l if anything went ownky, it wasn't liekly he'd be around long enough to notice.

The power generation capability of the DS's hypermatter reactor. Already discussed.


Page 160

His nephew, Hora Graneet, had been a navy spacer on the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mark II class vessel, which had been selected for a shakedown cruise testing one of the improved prototype hypermatter reactors. Tenn didn't know the specifics of what had happened, and didn't have anything close to the math needed ot understand it anyway. He knew that hypermatter exised only in hyperspacec, that it was composed of tachyonic parrticles, and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy. How this "null-point energy" had become unstable he didn't know. He only knew it had been powerful enough to turn an ISD-2 and its crew of thirty-seven thousand people into floating wisps of ionized gas in a microsecond.

ISDs carry hypermatter reactors. It also suggests that Mark 2 ISDs (or some type of Mk 2 design) existed some time prior to Yavin while the Death Star was being built.

The power generation comments are interesting. The refrence to "near limitless energy" and "null point energy" would seem to point to some sort of "hyperspace tap" concept (or at least some form of external power draw.) One might infer that the authors believe that Hypermatter reactors behave somehow like a 40K plasma reactor or a Stargate Naquadah reactor.

The other interesting power-generation tidbit is that the ISD was reduced to "ionzied gas" along with its crew in a "microsecond."

Assuming iron construction and roughly 90% empty space, an ISD could mass around 40-50 million tons or so (disregarding fuel). Vaporizing that much iron would require around 4e17 joules of energy (~100 megatons) - the crew are a minor parrt of the calc. The ISD is vaporized in a microsecond, which means that 1/1,000,000th of its output was transferred into the ship (at least) This would roughly point to an output at least in the e23-e24 watt sustained reactor output (at least 4e23 watts.)

This is conservative, though. "ionized gas" would imply reducing the ISD to some sortt of plasma state, which suggests a considerably higher temperature. (tens of thousands, possibly millions of degrrees instead of thousands.) In any case this would suggest ISD power generation being roughly consistent with how it is shown in the DK books for other vessels (IE venator) as well as what Curtis himself has estimated.

Page 164

In addition to the best military wards and pyrowalls, the folder was also protected by a random number generated by a quantum computer, said number being forty-seven digits long. Moreover, the program would shift each digit one value lower or higher every six standard hours, and only somebody with the code to access the program running it could keep track of this shift - one had to know the date and hour the program generated the number in order to follow the seequnece.

More fun Imperial computer technology, this stuff dealing with passwords and encryptions. Note the use of a quantum computer.

Page 167

..he was working out in the exeuctive officers' heavy-gravityroom, which he'd set to a three-g pull. Just standing in such a field was an effort. Every movement required three times the energy it normally did.

...

Motti picked up a trio of denseplast workout balls, each the size of his fist. Anywhere else on teh station whtey would weigh about a kilo each; in the HG room they were three apiece. Juggling them caused his muscles to quickly burn.

...

..and the first thing he had learned when juggling in the HG room was to move his feet out of hte way quickly if he dropped a ball. Three kilos moving at three times faster than normal could easily break bones or crush toes.

Admiral motti training out in a "Heavy gravity" room. He does not seem to be discomfited by training under three gees (and the fact that Officers have access to such training areas suggests that heavy-gravity training is not unusual in the navy. Which in turn suggests its not unusual elsewhere, such as the stormtrooper Corps.)

Page 177

abruptly his pursuer's ion cannons flared. White light filled the cockpit, and as it blinded Vil, he heard:

"Your ship has been destroyed."

This was simply a simulator training session, but it is worth noting that yet again, ion cannons are indicated to be destructive weapons.

Page 179

Of current-duty Imperial pilots, you are currently ranked nineteenth in this simulation."

Hmmm. "Out of how many?"

"Two hundred and thirty four thousand, six hundred and twelve."

This implies that there are at least a quarter million pilots on the Death Star. Whether this is purely TIE fighter pilots (possible, given that the guy running the simulator, the aforementioned Vil Dance is a TIE pilot doing a combat simulator) or includes others is not specified. I thoguht it was worth noting at least.

Page 183

"The station is a fortress. It has more guns than a fleet, and a weapon that will crack open worlds like the were ripe Wuli nuts."

This implies the Death STar's total number of guns exceeds the number of guns in a "fleet", however one chooses to define this (more than tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of guns, perhaps.)

Page 224

Construction on the station kept getting faster as crews learned from the first sections built and were able to build new ones with less wasted effort. Some parts of the process had been so streamlined that the work went nearly twice as fast as it had before. The army of construction droids worked tirelessly, day in and day out; an interior structure that would ordinarily take months to finish with organic labour would often be completed in only a few days.

...

The only ones who caime close to matching the droids' speed were the Wookiees.

Comments on automated vs organic construction technology. It is worth noting that despite using slave and criminal labor, they do seem to make extensive/heavy use of automation to actually build the thing. The organic slave labor either is for helping to run the machines, partt of the design/engineering process, or perform some specailist task. Which is consistent of their portrayal in the book.

Page 229

Then again, military secrets were notoriously hard to keep, and a file could be transmitted across the entire galaxy, given enough power in the generating signal.

Range of FTL communciations, presuming "sufficient energy" (it is suggested the Death Star would have s ufficient energy for this feat.)

Page 257

"If Tarkin even thinks there's a rebel base on a planet or moon - " Nova moved both hands in a motion simulating the flowerign of an explosion. "Boom. End of base, end of problem. Two or three worlds go up in a flash like that, ,and the war's over. Who would risk losing billions or even trillions of people to hide a few insurrectionists?"

Suggestion here that there are planets with "trillions" of people.

Page 291

It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspacec. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward.

The much-contested destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star in the novel. Note that the Hypermatter reactor is noted to give the planet's mass a superluminal "boost", suggesting it pushed the planet's mass physically into hyperspace, which may hae helped facilitate its overlal destruction.

Page 356

He managed to get the spin under control and then ready the little ship for the jump to lightspeed. A second or two would be enough. A couple of light-seconds would put him more than half a million kilometers away and give him a chance to get the TIE under control.

Vader's TIE performs a sublight hyperdrive "jump", much like the Falcon did in Hutt Gambit, ,and Boba Fett's Slave-1 did in "Bloodlines" This ought to be indicative of many millions of gees worth of effective accecleration.

Just a reminder, Connor, the Super-class has been retconned as a scaled down Executor schematic that was faked for the Imperial Senate to approve the funding for the Executors, he probably doesn't know they're much bigger..

General Schatten wrote:Just a reminder, Connor, the Super-class has been retconned as a scaled down Executor schematic that was faked for the Imperial Senate to approve the funding for the Executors, he probably doesn't know they're much bigger..

The Executors weren't under construction until post Yavin (a whole six months to build at Fondor and Kuat.) These unknown SSDs were evidently in production well before that.

It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspacec. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward.

I don't see how this suggest a decrease on superlaser's raw power in any way. It simply states that it's power was much bigger than what one would expect from matter-energy conversion since it's hypermatter reactor apparently draws power from "tachyonic matter" and "null-point energy" whatever that is. The beam itself still carries the necessary power and in addition to blowing up a planet it also accelerates much of it in hyperspace. The quote about several main sequence stars for a week supports that since it can easily equal 10^38J.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

You didn't get to shoot the big guns unless you had plenty of practice shooting hte little ones.

As we can see, the authors decided to adhere to the DK book's description of ISD armament rather than the WEG/WOTC sources. This may well be a first. Though they do still stick with the "Imperial' and "Super-" class nonclemature, but I guess you can't have everything.

Actually, Dr. Saxton wrote the following in the ROTS:ICS:

ROTS:ICS wrote:But the construction of Venator-class vessels is already slowing in favor of more robust, mile-long Imperator-class (renamed Imperial-class after the Jedi Purge) [...]

So, Imperial-class is indeed the correct nomenclature at the time this novel takes place.

You mean he HAD to write the following.

Do we know, what kind of fighter the persuer is in the TIE-simulation?

Since the Fleet Junkies thread was discussing the book, I thought the following would be worth pointing out:

McEwok wrote:In the quotes you gave (as opposed to the glosses you contextualized them with) I can see nothing that proves that the destruction is due to actual power generation, rather than the creation of a hyperspace connection...

McEwok both admits to taking things out of context and also fails basic physics. Next he'll probably claim "atom bombs don't generate energy in their explosions, they just open up atoms".

They lower matter to from a higher potential energy in the binding of the nucleon to a lower potential energy - the difference gives all the fireworks. Similarly, a tachyon has zero potential energy (i.e., it ceases to exist for purposes of the real world) at infinite speed and infinite potential energy at c. By moving a tachyon from near-c to infinite speed, one can liberate all of its energy.

That quote says the Death Star actually blew a significant portion of Alderaan's mass into hyperspace, ie- accelerated it to greater than the speed of light; how the fuck does that represent a decrease in power rather than increase?

Because you don't know that it's not using some sort of cheat that's completely without cost, obviously. What are you, some sort of Rabid Warsie?

Call me an idiot, Vympl, but that would be a "proving a negative" fallacy, correct? IT would have to be demonstrated that this was some manner of cheating device... which would be weird, since doesn't the Reborn Emperor say that prior to the development of the Galaxy Gun, no such tech had ever been used?

He's being sarcastic.

Figured that. I suppose I'm just prepping myself. My "debate" with Spock has reached the point where its 60+ pages in my word processor, and I just know the fool will try to bring this up.