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Alyrium Denryle
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I don't think colleges have bus systems.
Mine does a free bus service in and around campus, but then again its campus encompasses several city blocks
New buildings generally aren't paid out of tuition costs, at least not at private universities. My alma mater keeps hitting me up for money for their new building projects.
ASU builds theirs out of a combination of tuition and private donations

There is no free market pressure on universities to lower prices. The students aren't paying the money anyway, the government is. I know when I applied to university I didn't worry about the tuition costs. $20,000, $30,000, no big deal. I knew I could get grants to cover it. (Incidentally, I didn't. I got a few loans but no grants. Apparently if you work hard and save money you don't get any grants. Score one for financial responsibility, eh? Ah well, college is long since over so I shouldn't still be bitter.)
WHat university did you go to? My tuition at asu is 4000 per year, but then again, people who live in-state pay 1/5th what people who come in from out of state will pay. I dont know if that is the same for other university systems.
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Post by Jew »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
I don't think colleges have bus systems.
Mine does a free bus service in and around campus, but then again its campus encompasses several city blocks
Well I learn something every day.
WHat university did you go to? My tuition at asu is 4000 per year, but then again, people who live in-state pay 1/5th what people who come in from out of state will pay. I dont know if that is the same for other university systems.
$4000 sounds like a state university. Private universities cost a lot more, especially once you figure in room and board. Unfortunately for me I couldn't have qualified for in-state rates in any state, due to having lived overseas and thus not being a resident of any state. I ended up at a private university in Texas for the quite low price of $20,000 per year. I could easily have spent double that at another university.

Of course if price had been my concern then I would have chosen a state university. Even at out-of-state rates it's a good deal. But with the way financial aid works in the US college system, the sticker price of the university was the furthest thing from my mind.
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Post by Jew »

Darth Wong wrote:
Jew wrote:Not quite. There will be a small underclass whose suffering the government will do nothing about. The poor and unfortunate will turn to private charitable institutions. It is not evil to think that the government cannot provide all things to all people.
Unless these people are ignorant of all history, they will know that voluntary charitable giving will not get the job done. Frankly, I think that the "charity will fill up any holes left by gutting the social safety net" argument is so hopelessly untenable that even its proponents do not seriously believe it, and only use it as an excuse to avoid the charge of immorality as you are doing.
Well, see, now we're back to your belief that the opposition is evil. If you think they're mistaken, fine. But don't ascribe their actions to evilness.

By the way, I'm not advancing my own beliefs here. I'm only explaining things from a right-wing point of view. I don't actually agree with a lot of what the American right believes. I don't think they're evil for believing as they do, however.
She did not answer, which is the damnedest way of winning an argument I know of.
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Post by SirNitram »

Jew wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Jew wrote:Not quite. There will be a small underclass whose suffering the government will do nothing about. The poor and unfortunate will turn to private charitable institutions. It is not evil to think that the government cannot provide all things to all people.
Unless these people are ignorant of all history, they will know that voluntary charitable giving will not get the job done. Frankly, I think that the "charity will fill up any holes left by gutting the social safety net" argument is so hopelessly untenable that even its proponents do not seriously believe it, and only use it as an excuse to avoid the charge of immorality as you are doing.
Well, see, now we're back to your belief that the opposition is evil. If you think they're mistaken, fine. But don't ascribe their actions to evilness.

By the way, I'm not advancing my own beliefs here. I'm only explaining things from a right-wing point of view. I don't actually agree with a lot of what the American right believes. I don't think they're evil for believing as they do, however.
Why shouldn't we declare something which matches the definition of evil as evil, exactly?

I mean, if you don't define premeditated moves that increase the net suffering in the world as evil.. Then fine. But why shouldn't we call the opposition evil if the shoe fits?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Jew wrote:Well, see, now we're back to your belief that the opposition is evil. If you think they're mistaken, fine. But don't ascribe their actions to evilness.
Why not? I simply refuse to believe that anyone can honestly believe that people who refuse to pay tax money to help the unfortunate would rush out to voluntarily open their wallets to help those same unfortunates. That story sounds so hokey that I can't buy it as anything but a cover.
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Post by Jew »

Darth Wong wrote:
Jew wrote:Well, see, now we're back to your belief that the opposition is evil. If you think they're mistaken, fine. But don't ascribe their actions to evilness.
Why not? I simply refuse to believe that anyone can honestly believe that people who refuse to pay tax money to help the unfortunate would rush out to voluntarily open their wallets to help those same unfortunates. That story sounds so hokey that I can't buy it as anything but a cover.
That's not the issue at hand, though. The issue is whether a socialized health care system will be better than a free market system. It's not unreasonable to think that people who oppose a socialized health care system will also be willing to freely give money to help poor people buy health care from the free market. Free market health care supporters believe that a socialized system will result in poorer health care. They support a free market system because they think it will make the world better; they will give to charity because they think charity will make the world better.
SirNitram wrote:I mean, if you don't define premeditated moves that increase the net suffering in the world as evil..
That's just the point. The right believes that a free market system will decrease the net suffering as opposed to a socialized system. People will suffer under both systems, but some people truly honesty believe that the free market system will produce less total suffering than the socialized system. Is it so hard to comprehend that someone might think that?
She did not answer, which is the damnedest way of winning an argument I know of.
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Post by RedImperator »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I would like to point out that there ARE government programs in the US for people who cannot afford health insurance. Ever heard of medicare and medicaid? That is what they are there for. it is their own damn fault if they dont apply

One thing with health insurance and why people in the middle class dont purchase it is because they chose not to. It is something one must voluntarily purchase unless they get it through their job. Not only that, but inability to pay for life saving proceedures does not mean one will not recieve the treatment. Hospitals must help you, and if you cant pay theymust accept a reasonable payment plan (50 dollars a month I know of in some cases)

WHen people site cases of what.. 40 million people not having health insurance, I really would like to see how they arrived at that number and how they manipulate their statistics.

Regardless, the whole thing that happened in the moivie John Q with the hospital refusing to put a poor kid on the waiting list for a heart transplant... it would NEVER happen in this country.
Do you have any idea how much health insurance actually costs? I'd have to default on my student loans to pay for it. It's not a matter of "chosing" not to have insurance; until I find a job that provides it, I simply can't afford it, but I'm NOT poor enough to qualify for Medicaid.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

RedImperator wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I would like to point out that there ARE government programs in the US for people who cannot afford health insurance. Ever heard of medicare and medicaid? That is what they are there for. it is their own damn fault if they dont apply

One thing with health insurance and why people in the middle class dont purchase it is because they chose not to. It is something one must voluntarily purchase unless they get it through their job. Not only that, but inability to pay for life saving proceedures does not mean one will not recieve the treatment. Hospitals must help you, and if you cant pay theymust accept a reasonable payment plan (50 dollars a month I know of in some cases)

WHen people site cases of what.. 40 million people not having health insurance, I really would like to see how they arrived at that number and how they manipulate their statistics.

Regardless, the whole thing that happened in the moivie John Q with the hospital refusing to put a poor kid on the waiting list for a heart transplant... it would NEVER happen in this country.
Do you have any idea how much health insurance actually costs? I'd have to default on my student loans to pay for it. It's not a matter of "chosing" not to have insurance; until I find a job that provides it, I simply can't afford it, but I'm NOT poor enough to qualify for Medicaid.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Mr. B wrote:No, the levels of CO2 befoer hte industrial revolution were about 280 ppm, today they are around 370ppm it hasnt been that high in 420,000 years.

So what if humans cant adapt to global warming. And we can ruin nature through climate change, it can cause desertification which would ruin most environments that arent deserts.
It's conceivable we could survive a climate shift, but it would cause serious shit for us in the process. It would only take an overall Arctic temperature rise of 6C to shut down new ice production and therefore the thermohaline cycle. If that stops, we are fucked.
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Post by SirNitram »

Jew wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I mean, if you don't define premeditated moves that increase the net suffering in the world as evil..
That's just the point. The right believes that a free market system will decrease the net suffering as opposed to a socialized system. People will suffer under both systems, but some people truly honesty believe that the free market system will produce less total suffering than the socialized system. Is it so hard to comprehend that someone might think that?
This alters what, precisely? If the outcome is evil, call it such. There's such a thing as evil by incompetence, and evil by profit motive(And anyone whose watched the meetings that pop up when a proposal to allow the state to negotiate for cheaper rates for prescription drugs, will see that is definately showing up). I suppose you may beleive it's all about mustache-twirling evil-for-evil's-sake. That's ridiculous. But the idea that these folks are instrumenting a system which is causing tens of millions to not have methods of keeping healthy, de-fanging the military(STRYKKER SWARM! SILVER BULLET RAPTORS!), and so on, and should not be called what they are, is simply naive.
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Post by Jew »

SirNitram wrote:If the outcome is evil, call it such.
Sure, I can agree with that. If a plan's outcome is demonstrably evil one should call it evil. On the other hand, if a man supports a plan that you think will lead to evil, he may be simply mistakenly supporting a plan that he thinks will lead to good. He's not an evil man, he's simply misguided.
She did not answer, which is the damnedest way of winning an argument I know of.
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Post by SirNitram »

Jew wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If the outcome is evil, call it such.
Sure, I can agree with that. If a plan's outcome is demonstrably evil one should call it evil. On the other hand, if a man supports a plan that you think will lead to evil, he may be simply mistakenly supporting a plan that he thinks will lead to good. He's not an evil man, he's simply misguided.
Then you didn't read my post, as I specifically address this. Thanks for the waste of bandwidth, I'll move on to actual discussions now.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Mr. B wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: CO2 in our atmor is at 350 PPM, it hasnt been that high since the last ice age. However in geological time that was spitting distance away. And frankly, our organisms will adapt of die, that is the way of nature. You cant really "ruin" nature with climate change anymore than you can "waste" water that cycles back and is reused no matter what we do with it.
No, the levels of CO2 befoer hte industrial revolution were about 280 ppm, today they are around 370ppm it hasnt been that high in 420,000 years.

So what if humans cant adapt to global warming. And we can ruin nature through climate change, it can cause desertification which would ruin most environments that arent deserts.
What is really funny is that 90 ppm increase has caused a temperature shift of only a couple degrees at most. Nowe, granted, we should reduce our C02 emissions, but it isnt anything to panic over, we arent going to die, so it is time to think rationally, and find a workable solution (Or a wonderful thing called a multifaceted solution) rather than running around like chickens with out heads cut off.

And it was very nice of you to completely miss something I said previously about how one cannot ruin nature by changing it. To ruin something, it has to have an optimum ideal state to begin with. It literally needs a point of comparison that is better than the other points of comparison. Shit man, using your logic, tectonic movements "ruin" nature because an inland sea stoped existing in what would become the american west. Or that glaciers "ruin" nature when they move over a nice forested area, then retreat leaving a blank field. DO you see the problem with saying Desertification ruins nature now? Or do I need to explain how desertification is a natural process anyway and has been happening for the last few thousand years independant of human interferance. Did you know that there is a population of Crocodylus niloticus living in the middle of the Sahara because of the desertification of that area over the last few millenia?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

No, a global climate change wouldn't ruin nature, but it could very easily make thinking really really difficult for our civilization. Particularly for anyone living it Europe.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hmm, it seems that some people decided to ignore a post I made earlier. Let me repeat it by quoting myself:
Darth Wong wrote:Question: if you had ten kids, and you had the following choice to make:

Option 1: 1 kid filthy rich, 7 kids middle class, 1 kid poor, 1 kid starves to death

Option 2: 8 kids middle class, 2 kids poor

Which one would you choose?
It's not enough to say that you think the "overall" output is higher with option #1. There is a minimum below which people of conscience do not think we should allow our unfortunates to fall.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Gil Hamilton wrote:No, a global climate change wouldn't ruin nature, but it could very easily make thinking really really difficult for our civilization. Particularly for anyone living it Europe.
That is true... melting icecaps forcing warm currents deeper thus making the temperatures in northern europe plummet would not be a good thing, at least for people, and reptile and amphibian populations.
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Post by SirNitram »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:No, a global climate change wouldn't ruin nature, but it could very easily make thinking really really difficult for our civilization. Particularly for anyone living it Europe.
That is true... melting icecaps forcing warm currents deeper thus making the temperatures in northern europe plummet would not be a good thing, at least for people, and reptile and amphibian populations.
The species Homo Sapien Sapien(Man Who Thinks He's A Clever Bastard) will not die out. This shiny happy thing we claim is civilization, is not so robust.
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Post by Jew »

Well I believe I've made my point.
She did not answer, which is the damnedest way of winning an argument I know of.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Darth Wong wrote:You know, people can deny that the Republicans are the party of short-sighted self-interest for the wealthy all day long, but they won't be able to change the fact that the Republicans do seem to consistently do things which just happen to serve the short-sighted self-interest of the wealthy.
Teddy Roosevelt wasn’t that bad he did set up national parks and wild life reserves to help save the environment which dumb ass Shrubby monkey is trying to do away with. So he can be hated be everyone in twenty years the way every one hates Nixon.
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DW, I'd take point #2 any day in your example.

But a lot of Republicans (GWB-class, that is) would probably be perplexed about the 'starving child'. They'd think, "well, he must have been a goddamn hippie".

The biggest thing about socialized health care is that it is presented as an "all or nothing" deal, when it does not have to be. Opponents point to cancer and AIDS patients sucking up 95% of the socialized medicine budget, which is probably very valid.

Consider also that, whether you like it or not, many will see the AIDS patients as victims of their own piss-poor lifestyle choices, and will refuse to hand over money to support them as they wither as a result of their errors.

But most people in the US don't suffer from these kinds of chronic, long-term problems. If socilaized medicine was provided for "common ailments and injuries" (cold & flu type stuff, the common childhood diseases, bumps, bruises, breaks, scratches, cuts, minor burns, etc) while letting specialized health plans care for the long-term, chronic ailments then it could be done.

It begs the question of what to do about the chronic patients, for that I'm certainly open to ideas. Establish a nationwide pool, to which donations are tax-deductable? Let doctors who offer to spend time on these patients write off medical school bills?
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Post by Mr. B »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
What is really funny is that 90 ppm increase has caused a temperature shift of only a couple degrees at most. Nowe, granted, we should reduce our C02 emissions, but it isnt anything to panic over, we arent going to die, so it is time to think rationally, and find a workable solution (Or a wonderful thing called a multifaceted solution) rather than running around like chickens with out heads cut off.
No we wont die, but if we dont do SOMETHING we are going to have a much larger problem on our hands. And Kyoto is something even though I dont think the idea of trading pollution credits is a very workable idea.
Alyrium Denryle wrote: And it was very nice of you to completely miss something I said previously about how one cannot ruin nature by changing it. To ruin something, it has to have an optimum ideal state to begin with. It literally needs a point of comparison that is better than the other points of comparison. Shit man, using your logic, tectonic movements "ruin" nature because an inland sea stoped existing in what would become the american west. Or that glaciers "ruin" nature when they move over a nice forested area, then retreat leaving a blank field. DO you see the problem with saying Desertification ruins nature now? Or do I need to explain how desertification is a natural process anyway and has been happening for the last few thousand years independant of human interferance. Did you know that there is a population of Crocodylus niloticus living in the middle of the Sahara because of the desertification of that area over the last few millenia?
But glaciers and tectonic movements do ruin things. But nature can recover and adapt from these actions because they are Natural ruinations.( I dont think this is a word but i hope you get my point) Can nature recover from a completely MAN MADE disaster? The massive emissions of CO2 are not natural and are having an effect on the climate. And the emissions dont look anywhere near slowing. What happens when we double the output in the next decades. How will the climate react? How long will it take the Earth to adapt to this? Will we even last that long. If the climate shift causes huge population disruptions through drought, famine, or flooding can our societies cope with such a problem without complete collapse.
But my point is that global warming is a man made disaster and I dont think the Earth will be able to correct this problem and be able to return to a normal balanced state before humans. We are completely fucking the Earth and we dont know if the Earth can handle it.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

No we wont die, but if we dont do SOMETHING we are going to have a much larger problem on our hands. And Kyoto is something even though I dont think the idea of trading pollution credits is a very workable idea.
Something is not the same as something good. The solution needs to be workable, now I have not read Kyoto, I probably should. But regardless the soolution to this whatever it may be needs to meet certain criteria. Such as cost-effectivness, efficacy etc etc. If Kyoto does not meet these, then there is no point in implementing it.
But glaciers and tectonic movements do ruin things. But nature can recover and adapt from these actions because they are Natural ruinations.( I dont think this is a word but i hope you get my point) Can nature recover from a completely MAN MADE disaster?
So... nature can recover from natural disasters, but not man made ones? There is something special about human released CO2? Is there some mystical property about it that makes it so natural processes cannot recycle it? Can plants not eventually absorb and use this CO2 for photosynthesis?
The massive emissions of CO2 are not natural and are having an effect on the climate. And the emissions dont look anywhere near slowing. What happens when we double the output in the next decades. How will the climate react?
Well first you have to show that the output will double. If we do simple things like stop burning coal and oil for our energy needs and switch to nuclear power, they will reduce, inovations in fuel efficiency are popular in cars these days etc etc etc. And again... not natural? Again I ask, is there something special about human-released carbon dioxide? The current levels of CO2 have come about through natural processes before I assure you, the earth can handle it (to a point)

How long will it take the Earth to adapt to this? Will we even last that long. If the climate shift causes huge population disruptions through drought, famine, or flooding can our societies cope with such a problem without complete collapse.
WOw, I love the scare mongering. FOr one, the earth's organisms can adapt to massive asteroid impacts, and the permian extinction was probably caused by a massive CO2 release from a series of vocanic eruption and catastrophic release from the oceanic CO2 sink. And look... nature survived.

Humans have this wondeful ability to change their environment to suit their needs. We can survive gradual coastal flooding and can *gasp* irrigate farm land, and can do so over long distances if need be. Of course, if the human population does drop, that will solve our CO2 emission problem now wont it? As cold as that sounds, that is the way nature works, if a population gets to large, nature bitchslaps it one way or the other.
But my point is that global warming is a man made disaster and I dont think the Earth will be able to correct this problem and be able to return to a normal balanced state before humans. We are completely fucking the Earth and we dont know if the Earth can handle it.
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Factio republicanum delenda est
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Iceberg
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Post by Iceberg »

Drunk Monkey wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, people can deny that the Republicans are the party of short-sighted self-interest for the wealthy all day long, but they won't be able to change the fact that the Republicans do seem to consistently do things which just happen to serve the short-sighted self-interest of the wealthy.
Teddy Roosevelt wasn’t that bad he did set up national parks and wild life reserves to help save the environment which dumb ass Shrubby monkey is trying to do away with. So he can be hated be everyone in twenty years the way every one hates Nixon.
Teddy Roosevelt was hardly a typical Republican. He was from the then-not-completely-dead progressive wing of the party, nominated as McKinley's veep because it was thought that would annihilate his political career; instead he was cast into the Presidency when McKinley ate a bullet.

Incidentally, it seems to be a common conservative hobby these days to try to canonize the villainous conservative figures from history.
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Wow, Alyrium. Have you considered that maybe, while nature can recover from a man-made one, he's pointing out it's gonna take.. Well, geologic time spans? The sort of thing mankind can't wait for?

This ridiculous idea of the population getting big and nature 'smacking back' is bull. The population getting stupid causes backlashes. There's no magic scale on which humanity rests where a certain threshold makes the big sky pixie throw a rock.

Finally, if you're gonna declare Kyoto bunk, could you at least educate yourself on it and show why? Honestly, it's not like it's hard, but there's no effort..
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Alyrium Denryle
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Wow, Alyrium. Have you considered that maybe, while nature can recover from a man-made one, he's pointing out it's gonna take.. Well, geologic time spans? The sort of thing mankind can't wait for?
He is talking about ruining nature. You will notice his line of argument is in two sections, one detailing human impact, the other dealing with impact on nature. I was responding to the later. Nature will survive. Humans will survive and in all likelyhood civilization will do so as well.

This ridiculous idea of the population getting big and nature 'smacking back' is bull. The population getting stupid causes backlashes. There's no magic scale on which humanity rests where a certain threshold makes the big sky pixie throw a rock.
you misunderstand. If some sort of abiotic factor causes the carrying capacity to decrease, the population will drop. Sometimes catastrophically (figuratively speaking) It isnt bad, it happens. Forgive me if, intellectually, I dont think of humans as any better than any other species.

Now, the human population is what around 6.4 billion or so? Reachings its current carrying capacity rather rapidly, or has already breached it, depending on which ecologist you talk to. Now, if that carrying capacity were to drop for some reason say... lack of food due to climate change, the population will drop. Either through low birth rate or mass deaths, depending. Now, if the human population drops, the CO2 emissions will decrease, and nature will balance itself out (eventually)

Now, it is preferable that we dont reach that point, and I was merely being cynical in that above post, but still. Humans are not immune to population ecology and their own carrying capacity.
Finally, if you're gonna declare Kyoto bunk, could you at least educate yourself on it and show why? Honestly, it's not like it's hard, but there's no effort..
Thanks for selectively ignoring parts of sentences. You will notice qualifying statements such as
If Kyoto does not meet these, then there is no point in implementing it
I did not say that kyoto does not meet those criteria that is a man of straw on your part.
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Factio republicanum delenda est
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