Federation Post-Endgame weapons

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:23pm

The question is why not just adapt to all freqs?

That still wouldnt stop the phaser remodulating from working unless they had blocked all freqs, the same goes for torps.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-17 05:24pm

TheDarkling wrote:Patrick Ogaard: Torps can already push past shields if they have the frequency therefore what you describe is already doable by a normal torp - the key is changing the freq (if indeed that would work) and nkowning what to change it too.

Both techs proposed already exist so its not really aiding anything - he simplest explanation is "it does what it says on the box" ie switching phase.

But it does not switch phase in the Trekkie preferred sense. If it switches phase in the RL term, then it's likely that it may be switching it's 'phase angle', a term used when dealing with EM frequencies. Sound-cancelling technology finds the frequency of an offending noise, inverts the phase angle by 180, and.. cancels it out, by generating exactly the opposite waves.

If the TPT is some 'smart' weapon which can switch it's frequency faster than the Borg ship can try and adapt, it'll glide through shields like they don't exist(Which they do), punch through they're nonexistant armour(Which they do), and if the launcher was smart, impact on the reactor and cause it to brew up.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-17 05:25pm

TheDarkling wrote:The question is why not just adapt to all freqs?

That still wouldnt stop the phaser remodulating from working unless they had blocked all freqs, the same goes for torps.

Apparantly they can't, but can only rapidly adapt to patterns of frequencies. It may be an issue with power(They can't maintain that many shields), or scalability with their symmetric processing model.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 05:31pm

TheDarkling wrote:Patrick Ogaard: Torps can already push past shields if they have the frequency therefore what you describe is already doable by a normal torp - the key is changing the freq (if indeed that would work) and nkowning what to change it too.

Both techs proposed already exist so its not really aiding anything - he simplest explanation is "it does what it says on the box" ie switching phase.

True, torps set to the appropriate frequency can push through shields. My interference idea would posit just one thing: a full-fledged shield system, as opposed to a navigational deflector, can actively but temporarily cancel out a shield it comes into contact with, at the cost of cancelling out itself. Thus there is no need to worry about the enemy's shield frequency, as the shields automatically adjust, as if they did not, accidentally overlapping frequencies would stack or clash, no doubt leading to unpleasantness and perhaps a shield going south permanently. The shield slipping quality of full-fledged shields would therefore be a natural engineering safeguard against overloads, common to all shields with flicker.

It just feels simpler to me than having to rely on additional weirdtech that will never be mentioned again. I'm still waiting for starships to be equipped with tetryon torps to keep enemy starships from fleeing or pursuing ...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:32pm

The TPT would have to know the borgs magic frequency in order to be 180 out of phase with it and thus collapse the shields - we have never seen any way to scan this frequency and the fact that a torp can scan it and adapt itself that quickly and have such a high yield is asking a bit much from a small torp.

As you also point out the phrase phase doesnt mean the same as in real life.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:34pm

Patrick Ogaard
: So your asserting that when two shields clash they cancel each other out irrespective of frequncy concerns?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-17 05:35pm

TheDarkling wrote:The TPT would have to know the borgs magic frequency in order to be 180 out of phase with it and thus collapse the shields - we have never seen any way to scan this frequency and the fact that a torp can scan it and adapt itself that quickly and have such a high yield is asking a bit much from a small torp.

As you also point out the phrase phase doesnt mean the same as in real life.

That we have never seen this in place in the present does not mean much. Remember, this is technology from the future, and doubtlessly implements technologies we don't know.

And it cannot be 'out of phase' as in Phase Cloaks, since we see the torps while in motion.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-17 05:41pm

Patrick's theory is straightforward, and doesn't require extra treknobabble, so I think Occam's razor would favor it.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:41pm

SirNitram: Unless the torp only goes out of phase when it gets near the shield as an energy concern.

Or the torp is sorta out of phase - like in The Next Phase - they could be seen but still werent completely "in phase".

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-17 05:42pm

Can phase cloaks do that?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:42pm

Darth Yoshi: It does have merit - I was just asking if I had it understood correctly.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:44pm

Darth Yoshi: Do what?

Half and Half - well I would assume so since it pushes them out of phase and in "The Next Phase" it was shown you could be between 180 out of phase and in phase.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-17 05:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: Unless the torp only goes out of phase when it gets near the shield as an energy concern.

Or the torp is sorta out of phase - like in The Next Phase - they could be seen but still werent completely "in phase".

I truly loathe adding layers of complexity to a theory. *Sigh*

What I recall from seeing the ep.(If someone can post a pic, I would be eternally grateful) is that the torpedo impacted the hull, punching through it, and seconds later it exploded from inside. If it was out of phase, it would not impact the hull.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 05:56pm

In the first idea its rephased by the time it gets to the hull.

In the second its not quite in phase so it gets past the shields - it would also explain why the borgs superstructure doesnt damage the torp as its going past.

It would also mean that the explosion wouldnt be completely in phase thus the torp has to home in on the reactor to destroy the ship in one exlposion.

It is more complex I admit but the super torp that has better abilities than the E-Ds shield generators and a better scanning system seems a bit extreme.

Patricks theory is also a possible.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 06:10pm

TheDarkling wrote:Patrick Ogaard
: So your asserting that when two shields clash they cancel each other out irrespective of frequncy concerns?

Yes. However, I'd say that the evidence shows only that it seems to apply to the standard protective deflector shields. There appears to be no evidence that it would apply to either navigational deflectors or structural integrity fields. The open lattice of the outer hulls of most Borg vessels is unlikely to be protected by more than the atmosphere-retaining shield form also used in Federation shuttle and cargo bay access doors. A torpedo programmed to avoid or bull through the relatively flimsy hull plating should punch through easily, to explode deep inside the target.

Looking at all the more-or-less-discredited ST tech manuals, all torp schematics show a little navigational deflector dish in the nose of the torp, and the warp sustainers are, in size, little different from two thermos bottles, so the majority of the internal space of a conventional torp is devoted to payload. Devising a compact matter-antimatter storage chamber would free up enough space to include more explosive payload as well as a full-power shielding unit with a short-duration power supply.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 06:18pm

Could you give some examples of this shield on shield cancelation?

I remember a Jem Hadar fighter rammig a Klingon ship however I put this down to the Dominions shield defeating tech (there torps and beam weapons went past shields) thus I imagined that what ever aided these weapons aided the Jem hadar ship.

I do remember that in ST 5 (Shudder) the E-A had to drop shields to allow the shuttle on board.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 06:19pm

I just thought of something: If my idea of shield slipping were right, that would mean that, had the Defiant under Worf's command had active shields, Worf's attempt to ram the cube attacking the Starfleet forces in Earth orbit during ST:FC would have been successful.

It also fits the vulnerability of Species 8472's bioships to being rammed by a shielded Borg cube: the cube in question clearly outmassed the bioship, so a sideswipe through the shields was enough to destroy the bioships. Had the Borg been creative, they would have simply sent out wave after wave of loaf-shaped scoutships and little spheres to engage the bioships in suicide ramming attacks. Even the little scout cubes would have been a good choice. It would have been a simple matter of throwing enough small, expendable ships with small, expendable crews to attack the enemy.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 06:24pm

Why didnt the federation simply use death shuttles against the borg?

Also when the Jem hadar took DS9 why didnt they simply ram it?

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 06:35pm

TheDarkling wrote:Could you give some examples of this shield on shield cancelation?

I remember a Jem Hadar fighter rammig a Klingon ship however I put this down to the Dominions shield defeating tech (there torps and beam weapons went past shields) thus I imagined that what ever aided these weapons aided the Jem hadar ship.

I do remember that in ST 5 (Shudder) the E-A had to drop shields to allow the shuttle on board.

One instance specific to the Federation and Borg would be the following: when the Enterprise-D separated into its two sections and engaged in a diversion, complete with showers of antimatter, the diversion allowed a small shuttle to slip through the cube's shields, something no one remarked on as being terribly odd or difficult.

Another instance would be that of the Jem'Hadar fighters engaging the Klingon vessels that were part of the coalition fleet attacking those odd Cardassian combat satellites: the fighters attacked at a time after the Federation had managed to eliminate its shielding vulnerability to phased polaron weapons. The Federation and Klingons would have been insane to not have implemented the same or similar adaptations in the Klingon shields, as otherwise the Klingon ships would have been nothing more than moving targets. Therefore, the Jem'Hadar fighters either managed to physically force their way through Klingon shields that would have to be incredibly weak, or the fighters slipped straight through the Klingon shields by means of shield slipping.

As for ST5, I chalk that up to senility or an ill-fated attempt to use purely hull-hugging shields: Shields designed as pure hull-huggers might be more powerful, but if no one thought to design them to allow the shuttle bay doors to open while the shields are on, that's just not smart.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-07-17 06:36pm

first off, i thought the romulans had made a pact that the feds couldnt using cloaking-stuffs torpedoes or not. Secondly ifthey have these god-awful super torps, why do they have problems with the romulans in the new movie? if they could kill borg cubes so easily it would seem they could anihalate any enemy ship EVER. just mah two cents

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 06:45pm

Darth Garden Gnome: The weapons will be under lock and key I would think but its possible that the E-E just hasnt been upgraded yet.

Patrick Ogaard: The shuttle penetrates an em field the Borg put up to prevent beaming not an actual shield (its always refered to as a field and we are told the borg puts one up to prevent beaming), the shuttle also goes in unpowered meaning it didnt have its shields up anyway.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 06:46pm

TheDarkling wrote:Why didnt the federation simply use death shuttles against the borg?

Also when the Jem hadar took DS9 why didnt they simply ram it?

Starfleet Command's response to proposed ramming tactics: "I'm sorry, Ensign Ogaard, but we have evolved beyond such needlessly crude and brutal tactics. Were we to simply ram the Borg, possibly cruelly crushing thousands of drones, how could we live with ourselves?"

As for the Jem'Hadar, during their first attack on the station there was no need for ramming tactics, as the phase polaron weapons worked just fine. During the second attack, shock and tactical ineptness almost certainly joined with an unwillingness to physically destroy the station outright. Even one of those oversized fighters ramming the station could have easily blown the whole station apart. The Cardassians involved in the attack would not have wanted their property blown up irretrievably, and the Vorta involved in the attack found themselves suddenly slapped in the face with proof that someone could take their big punches and come back grinning ... maybe the Founders made a mistake? ... no, never ...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 06:51pm

Ill grant you the Vorta was thrown off guard.

I dont agree with your star fleet command sketch however - drones are better off dead afterall.

If this works why dont we see more klingon death charges - I think it may be a case of the shields go down due to the fact another shield is hitting it because it cant take the strain (of a stronger shield hitting it) not because shields cancel one another in close proximity.

Meaning that a TPT using this method would need more power than the shield generators of a borg cube.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-17 06:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:Patrick Ogaard: The shuttle penetrates an em field the Borg put up to prevent beaming not an actual shield (its always refered to as a field and we are told the borg puts one up to prevent beaming), the shuttle also goes in unpowered meaning it didnt have its shields up anyway.

The problem there, of course, is that shield and field tend to get used interchangeably in ST dialogues when referring to defensive shielding, and the Borg cube's regular shields should have been completely proof against transporters, since all defensive shields I've ever seen in ST series have been proof against transporters and the cube was actively shielded against the attacks from the two parts of Ent-D. As for going in unpowered, in ST terms that likely means they coasted in without a big impulse signature, open hailing frequencies and active sensors. On unpowered Starfleet vessels the dread cold of space immediately begins turning everyone to icicles, not to mention the fact that flying around near decorative antimatter bursts, active shields and directed energy weapon backscatters is a bad idea without shields: the gamma radiation could make future kids look kind of funny.

Still, your points regarding the incident are potentially valid.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-17 07:12pm

The cubes regular shields should have protected them from transport however the crew beams over when they first try to rescue Picard - Geordi or the Chief say they have raised an em field that is blocking the transporter.

I suppose the point could be made that they didnt mean shields to be shut down but afterwards Data simply fires thrusters and they escape (of course he may have raised the shields without saying it)

The borgs shields seem to be hull hugging (seen when the E-D uses the deflector weapon) yet this em field was far and away from the Borgs hull, another indication that there were two shields/fields.

Another incident I remember is in the DS9 episode A time to Stand - the crew gets trapped inside the shield of a Supply base (they are in a stolen Jem Hadar ship) and they cant escape until the generator is destroyed.