Moderator: Vympel
Batman wrote: And what a debris field out in space mostly made out of? Oh, that's right. Empty space. As for antimatter on the actual debris, there wouldn't be any on account of it having reacted with the matter of the debris, genius.
Canon evidence: Self contained green pulse, later described as a/m, flies out of romulan war bird. Makes contact with alien freighter that is unshielded. Freighter blows up.Batman wrote: Despite the fact that you're apparently too stupid to understand it, disruptors cannot possibly be antimatter weapons because their effects are completely incompatible with what an actual antimatter weapon would do.
Phasers are shown as solid beams while the canon evidence posted shows it as a self contained pulse. You should really watch the video before posting about it...Batman wrote: What they do is phaser magic painted green, something that I think the writers of Trek (at least prior to VOY) understand a lot better than you do.
I did. Its okay i'll hold your hand through this once againBatman wrote: Um-no.The canon evidence shows a solid object with no special shielding can go through Clone Wars era Droideka shields. This means the same applies to Imperial Era capital ship shields-oh, wait, it doesn't, it's actually you who has to show that.
The Dark wrote: By that logic, Abrams tanks carry nuclear weapons - when they fire a DU shell, it leaves extremely high levels of radiation (compared to the normal background count). Therefore, American tanks use nuclear weapons.
Or you're a blithering idiot.
Actually, they will find extremely high levels of nuclear radiation, roughly 1,000 to 1,300 times the normal background radiation.Jm81 wrote:The Dark wrote: By that logic, Abrams tanks carry nuclear weapons - when they fire a DU shell, it leaves extremely high levels of radiation (compared to the normal background count). Therefore, American tanks use nuclear weapons.
Or you're a blithering idiot.
What they would find would be uranium isotopes. And they do shoot uranium isotopes in their munitions. That was the logic I used and you just gave an example where it would accurately evaluate DU shells as well. Thanks!
I love it when people post insulting comments and end up unwittingly supporting the logic of the person they insult.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
The Dark wrote:Actually, they will find extremely high levels of nuclear radiation, roughly 1,000 to 1,300 times the normal background radiation.Jm81 wrote:The Dark wrote: By that logic, Abrams tanks carry nuclear weapons - when they fire a DU shell, it leaves extremely high levels of radiation (compared to the normal background count). Therefore, American tanks use nuclear weapons.
Or you're a blithering idiot.
What they would find would be uranium isotopes. And they do shoot uranium isotopes in their munitions. That was the logic I used and you just gave an example where it would accurately evaluate DU shells as well. Thanks!
I love it when people post insulting comments and end up unwittingly supporting the logic of the person they insult.
Which means...using a romulan disruptor results in AM residue. This makes it an AM weapon despite the fact that its observed behaviour is completely incompatible with one because...Because the writers never put it in a script line. But they did choose to have Riker state a blurb how a/m clearly indicated the ship was destroyed by a romulan disruptor.Lord Revan wrote:
If Romulan ship board weapons are AM based then why do we never hear of anti-matter storage on-board romulan ships (their warp-cores are not M/AM based so that can't explain it) or at least I can't remember any such line.
Which still doesn't make disruptors AM weapons I'm afraid.Yes, they put in Data's analysis to show the crew having figured out what had happened. And they also put in Riker's comment that AM was a direct result of romulan disruptor fire.Lord Revan wrote:
as for you second statement, there was a reason, to give the crew a "clue" as to what was happening without it seeming too convoluted, it's as simple as that, the AM was a "footprint" for the crew to follow, there was never (as far as I know) intention to imply anything else that romulan disruptors cause elevated AM levels and can identified by that.
The TdiC bombardment would be physically impossible with DET weapons period you imbecile. You can't get fireballs the size we saw yet have them dissipate in a matter of seconds with brute force. Either they were using some sort of technobabble weapon or the visuals were part of the false data they were being fed by the Founders.On the other hand, as a side note, the resultant bombardment of the Dominion home world in "The Die is Cast" would be physically impossible with the known ST reactor output levels unless they were actually utilizing AM weapons.
It does nothing of that kind.So not only is there direct canon evidence of this, but it also fixes contradictions in the lore for events that took place in The Die is Cast DS9.
Not unless 50+ percent of the field's volume are actually debris. Not what the visuals show I'm afraid.Actually debris fields are mostly made up of debris...Batman wrote:
And what a debris field out in space mostly made out of? Oh, that's right. Empty space. As for antimatter on the actual debris, there wouldn't be any on account of it having reacted with the matter of the debris, genius.
Canon evidence: Self contained green pulse, later described as a/m,[/quote]And the base line would need to be established with what a destroyed ship would contaminate the surrounding space with.
Batman wrote:
Despite the fact that you're apparently too stupid to understand it, disruptors cannot possibly be antimatter weapons because their effects are completely incompatible with what an actual antimatter weapon would do.
Because we all know the only way to make an unshielded freighter blow up is antimatter. Oh wait.flies out of romulan war bird. Makes contact with alien freighter that is unshielded. Freighter blows up.
As it is with pretty much every other damage mechanism in SciFi. And I can't help but notice that you keep ignoring the fact that disruptors (both ship and manportable) routinely do things that are physically impossible to do with an AM weapon.That is consistent with what A/M would do coming in direct contact with matter.
Which is relevant...why, exactly? Phasers do technobabbly things and guess what, disruptors do technobabbly things, only they do it in a different colour. Besides, a pulse is nothing other than a really short duration beam and we've seen both phasers and disruptors fire both.Phasers are shown as solid beams while the canon evidence posted shows it as a self contained pulse. You should really watch the video before posting about it...Batman wrote:
What they do is phaser magic painted green, something that I think the writers of Trek (at least prior to VOY) understand a lot better than you do.
Again, two words-photon torpedo. Nobody's disputing that AM weapons exist in the Star Trek universe. Disruptors, however, are not among them. The reasons for why they can't be have been explained to you repeatedly and in great detail. They leave behind trace amounts of antimatter when fired and that's it.Jm81 wrote:Just in case this romulan disruptor using antimatter is a sticking point for you all and is detracting from the main topic of this thread there is other canon evidence of a/m (anti-protons) being shot out of federation ships as a particle stream which would work as well.
So there you go MORE canon evidence that anti-matter can be used as a weapon and precedent exists.
Batman wrote:Again, two words-photon torpedo. Nobody's disputing that AM weapons exist in the Star Trek universe. Disruptors, however, are not among them. The reasons for why they can't be have been explained to you repeatedly and in great detail. They leave behind trace amounts of antimatter when fired and that's it.Jm81 wrote:Just in case this romulan disruptor using antimatter is a sticking point for you all and is detracting from the main topic of this thread there is other canon evidence of a/m (anti-protons) being shot out of federation ships as a particle stream which would work as well.
So there you go MORE canon evidence that anti-matter can be used as a weapon and precedent exists.
Then stop right there. As I have said before, my sole point is to establish a/m weapons have a presedence. Romulan disruptors are a/m weapons but heaven and earth wont convince you so just let that point go as never to be agreed upon. A/M weapons exist so lets just stop there because we are losing sight of the point of this thread.Batman wrote: Again, two words-photon torpedo. Nobody's disputing that AM weapons exist in the Star Trek universe.
And canon evidence. But its pointless. BTW you replied as i was editing my post to be more to the point.Batman wrote:The problem being, none of that makes disruptors AM weapons except in your fevered imagination.
Doesn't prove the A-Wings went through the shields. Also involves Wars fighters and might have involved shield-on-shield interaction even if they did.Jm81 wrote:I did. Its okay i'll hold your hand through this once againBatman wrote: Um-no.The canon evidence shows a solid object with no special shielding can go through Clone Wars era Droideka shields. This means the same applies to Imperial Era capital ship shields-oh, wait, it doesn't, it's actually you who has to show that.
I would point to time stamp 5:45 - 6:50 of Brian's video.
Clone Wars.I would point to time stamp 8:18 - 8:25 of Brian's video.
Clone Wars.I would point to time stamp 10:28 - 10:59 of Brian's video.
I'd also like to hear an explanation for what anti-protons have to do with cloaking, since Romulan cloaking devices leave behind residual anti-protons as well.Batman wrote:I'm still waiting for that canon evidence making disruptors AM weapons as opposed to simply leaving behind AM when fired. Or your explanation for how they manage to do things that are physically impossible to do with an AM weapon.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
I wouldn't waste your bandwidth. I've been trying to point the same thing out to both him and Brian of the same thing for weeks, based on the fact that Ackbar explicitly stated that the capships would have to knock out the shields before the fighters would even stand a chance. No joy.Batman wrote:Doesn't prove the A-Wings went through the shields.
I did, but you wont accept canon evidence in front of your face. So I am leaving this point as unreachable for you and me. It detracts as well from the point of the thread as i found more obvious evidence that a/m weapons have precedence.Batman wrote:I'm still waiting for that canon evidence making disruptors AM weapons as opposed to simply leaving behind AM when fired. Or your explanation for how they manage to do things that are physically impossible to do with an AM weapon.
You choose to invent an interaction of technology out of thin air you should back that up with canon evidence.Batman wrote: Doesn't prove the A-Wings went through the shields. Also involves Wars fighters and might have involved shield-on-shield interaction even if they did.
Still canon until an observation contradicts it from a future canon movie.Batman wrote: Clone Wars.
Still canon until an observation contradicts it from a future canon movie.Batman wrote: Clone Wars.
No idea, nor does it matter. I see you dropped that silly analogy that backfired on you already. Good.The Dark wrote: I'd also like to hear an explanation for what anti-protons have to do with cloaking, since Romulan cloaking devices leave behind residual anti-protons as well.
Batman wrote:I would accept canon evidence if there were any. Nothing of what you provided makes disruptors AM weapons, at this point it's pretty damned clear that you have no clue what precedence actually means, and the really funny part is that your approach (unworkable as it happens to be) doesn't even require disruptors to be AM weapons, it just requires the Trek side to have AM weapons, which everybody knows and agrees on.
I make no such assumption to bypass the mass of A/M they would need.Lord Revan wrote:batsie I think he assumes by having a "beam" type AM weapon he bypass the yield needs for signifigantly harming any larger SW warships. That's why the zeal to prove disruptors as AM weapons, since the confirmed AM weapons (aka Photon Torps) don't have the yield to really do any signifigant harm to SW warships (or at least not the ones that count).
btw correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there only 2 ships from any of the major ST powers that can fire while cloaked and Chang's BoP was lost and the Scimitar is huge, so neither of those is really small enough to work for this.
'We're passing through their magnetic field. Set deflectors to double front.' Rewatch ANH sometime. Also, notice the might in there. I'm presenting it as a possibility, nothing more. You are blithely assuming the fighters went through the shields, when it's entirely possible and in fact pretty likely that at least the bridge shields were down thanks to the Rebel fleet bombardment at the time.Jm81 wrote:You choose to invent an interaction of technology out of thin air you should back that up with canon evidence.Batman wrote: Doesn't prove the A-Wings went through the shields. Also involves Wars fighters and might have involved shield-on-shield interaction even if they did.
Canon for a Clone Wars era shield, nothing more. Unless you want to argue that all Wars shield behave exactly the same way. Would you like the full list of instances where they don't?Still canon until an observation contradicts it from a future canon movie.Batman wrote: Clone Wars.
Canon for Clone Wars era shields, nothing more. STILL involves Wars tech fighters. Are you sure you know what canon actually means?Still canon until an observation contradicts it from a future canon movie.Batman wrote: Clone Wars.