Question about Riker in Nemesis

[brianeyci]

Ah, TommyJ, I don't see how you can find good excuses for Riker, trust me if it could have been done I would have done it already (like I said a few posts back). Riker is an idiot, no way around it unless you violate parsimony. You should just concede the point before the thread turns into flames.

Brian

[Petrosjko]

I always thought that they should have killed off characters, been promoted, wounded, retired etc. It would have been far more realistic.

The TV show Law and Order has proven that audiences will now accept a rotation of main characters (some new) seasonaly w/o losing ratings. The asterik to that of course has to be good writing and compelling stories.

That was one of the big problems with TNG's story model. They were going for the same episodic style as TOS, without realizing that modern TV viewers had gotten used to arc stories that actually go somewhere. I didn't watch much past the first couple of seasons, but when I did catch it on and off later on, I did notice that they were flirting with introducing some arcs, such as the Deanna/Worf romance angle.

But otherwise it was a largely static show that too often revolved around a very simple cookie cutter formula.

Crew finds some sort of problem. (Holodeck goes batty/Something fundamental has come unglued in space-time/Wesley discovers sex)

Crew has lengthy conference on problem. Technobabble solution is proposed.

Technobabble solution fails. Ship is nearly lost/Wesley nearly gets laid.

Crew holds another lengthy conference. Picard quotes Shakespeare. New technobabble solution is proposed.

With ten minutes remaining in the episode, technobabble solution is implemented. Ship is saved. Crew rejoices. Wesley resumes frustrated masturbation.

[Chris OFarrell]

**snip*

Ignoring your dumbass and completly irrelevent crap about Generalship and strategic decisions...

a. He didn't know that Jordi had a listening/viewing device implanted

He didn't HAVE to. He had just been kidnaped and tortured by the Klingons. You assume he could EASILY have been programed to work against you somehow (we know the Romulans were able to program him in an earlier episode through his VISOR to kill people) and the Klingon sisters are hardly nice people. You assume he is comprimised. You assume at the VERY LEAST that he has been through hell and you give him a few days off.

b. Jordi was examined by the Cheif Medical Officer after being interogated by a hostile enemy and deemed fit for duty.

Crushers incompetence is IRRELEVENT, the point is that he should not have BEEN ON DUTY. You would put him in his quaters and confine him to them until the crisis is over and you can fully debreif him, unless there is a critical need for him in the engine room.

c. The acquisition of the sheild freq. was the LEAST likely reason for the failure AT THAT MOMENT until it became apparent they had done so.

ROFL. Least likely reason? What do you base THAT on? You have any idea of Ocams Razor? The MOST likely reason for the BOP being able to shoot through the ships shields is matching the shield frequency. Even JANEWAY in 'Equinox' assumed that instantly when Equinox was able to get their shield frequency and penetrate the shields. Of course she then didn't bother to track down who was sending the signal to them, but the point stands.

The E-D has a shield randomisation modulation program hardwired into its tactical systems, it was a countermeasure to defeat the Borg. ALL Riker had to do was ACTIVATE THE DAMN SYSTEM and they would have been safe. As even IF they checked again with Geordi and saw it, it probably would have been changing faster then they could rekey it.

d. Any competent commander would try to the crisis by protecting lives.

And Riker failed miserably at this no? You protect lives by either engaging the frigen Klingon ship or performing an evasive manouver that buys you time. Ever...so....slowly turning 180 degrees to give the Klingons a chance to pound even more targets on the aft arc is not the way to do it. You lose your velocity that you have and let the much more manouvable BOP simply dance around you and blast even MORE targets.

The BEST thing to do would be to accelerate on a collision course. Even if their weapons are penetrating the shields, the shields are still active. If the BOP refuses to duck away and break contact, it would simply be smashed against the shields.

e. After ascertaining the threat he made the most comptent decisions anyone would have in a crisis situation.

Uh no.

He didn't return fire, more then a single token phaser blast when he outguns that BOP probably 10 or 20 to 1 and probably would have blown it to bits with a single alpha strike. He didn't do the rather clear thing and remodulate the shields for protection. He didn't even bother to simply drop the shields because they were not working, dump the power into the phasers and blast away with supercharged weapons. He didn't manouver in a way to press his advantages and he relied on a technobabble plan that may or may not have worked instead of just OPENING FIRE.

So no, he made the most INCOMPETENT decisions possible.

[Uraniun235]

You assume at the VERY LEAST that he has been through hell and you give him a few days off.

This is actually consistent with a deleted scene (don't know if they ever filmed it or not) in which Dr. Soran actually tortured Geordi with a nasty little device that (among other things, if I remember right) stopped his heart for brief periods of time.

If they wanted to toast the Enterprise, giving the Duros sisters more than one BOP would have worked nicely.

When cornered on this issue, Ronald D. Moore gave a rather lame excuse that said (in, if I remember right, a very close paraphrase) "Every photon torpedo costs money."

Now, granted, it's obvious they pinched a few pennies in that sequence (see: total recycling of the BOP destruction sequence from ST:TUC), but you'd think that for the theatrical debut of a fairly popular series, they'd have been able to afford a little more.

[Stofsk]

Now, granted, it's obvious they pinched a few pennies in that sequence (see: total recycling of the BOP destruction sequence from ST:TUC), but you'd think that for the theatrical debut of a fairly popular series, they'd have been able to afford a little more.

They could always cut back on the salaries of these self-important 'actors' who make up the cast. I'm sorry, WHY exactly was Levar Burton the third most paid actor on the show? (IIRC) It would have been nice if Soran had killed Geordi. It would have made him more villainous. Plus, more money for photon torpedoes.

[EDIT] Actually, why do you need that much cast anyway? Geordi has always been redundant and a poor character; Riker has the charisma of a talking wood post; ditto Crusher. It seems to me the most essential characters are Picard, Picard's sidekick Data, Spot (because we *need* to appeal to the catlovers), Worf (yes, he's a racist moron, but he *is* one of TNG's most popular characters... unfortunately) and Troi (nice T&A). Who else do you really need? TOS got by with Kirk, Spock and McCoy; everyone else were secondaries (though Sulu did develop quite a cult around him, as did Scotty).

[Petrosjko]

[EDIT] Actually, why do you need that much cast anyway? Geordi has always been redundant and a poor character; Riker has the charisma of a talking wood post; ditto Crusher. It seems to me the most essential characters are Picard, Picard's sidekick Data, Spot (because we *need* to appeal to the catlovers), Worf (yes, he's a racist moron, but he *is* one of TNG's most popular characters... unfortunately) and Troi (nice T&A). Who else do you really need? TOS got by with Kirk, Spock and McCoy; everyone else were secondaries (though Sulu did develop quite a cult around him, as did Scotty).

Especially given how little they were used in the movies, too. The movies almost exclusively focused on a Picard-driven main plot, and a Data-driven subplot. Everyone else got generic lines that could've been delivered by brand new generic replacement crewmembers. That was another thing that irked me about the TNG movies.

[Stofsk]

Especially given how little they were used in the movies, too. The movies almost exclusively focused on a Picard-driven main plot, and a Data-driven subplot. Everyone else got generic lines that could've been delivered by brand new generic replacement crewmembers. That was another thing that irked me about the TNG movies.

Even Patrick and Brent got tired of the bloody roles, as we see in dreck like Insurrection and Nemesis. As bad as FC was, it still had some of the best Picard and Data 'moments' in the entire TNG mythos.

I disliked how they misused the characters. Riker is an idiot in Generations, Worf shows up in Insurrection and Nemesis, Picard's boner for Crusher is completely forgotten and Geordi's only growth was going from crappy VISOR to occular implants.

I have to wonder at what-might-have-been if someone halfway intelligent handled the TNG movies. What if some of the crew had actually died with the E-D's crash on Veridian 3, and Picard had to face the responsiblity of his decision? (ie he left command to his XO to participate in a hostage-exchange, an incredibly... bizzare strategy, to say the least.) Riker, Crusher and Geordi could have been killed in the crash, along with a few civilians as well. It could have been used to explain Picard's 'edge' in FC as a hardass bastard. Data would be his new XO, and thus the whole "He's Picard's protege" angle would have been a whole lot more relevant. Crusher's death may have made him lonelier, but then again, since Crusher had ZERO fucking presence in the TNG films to begin with, this wouldn't change anything. And Geordi... well, sucks.

[Chris OFarrell]

Today at work, I sort of started to think about how to rework the battle to show Riker as actually able to BE the tactical master he is supposed to be instead of a completely incompetent moron who lost a ship of the line and should have been shot. While still giving him the same set-up (Geordie compromising the shield modulation). Except the Duras sisters have a Vor'cha class attack cruiser and Picard was clever enough to spy a look at the beam down co-ordinates when the Duras beamed him down to chat with Sorren.

Yes, it was a slow day

So here is what I thought up:

INT Cruiser Bridge

Lursor and Betor grin in triumph as the shield modulation is splashed across the main screen. They start speaking rapidly in Klingon (why the fuck would they speak English among themselves?)

*Always spoken in Klingon, with English subtitles*
Lursor: "Their shields are operating on a modulation of two five seven point four-"
Betor: "Adjust our torpedo Frequency to Match! Two five seven point four. Signal the group to attack!"

Betor lowers the targeting scope and grins in pleasure at the coming battle as she stabs at the fire controls...

EXT Space.

A Photon Torpedo launches from the Vor'Cha and sails across the space between the ships...where it hits the shields and passes through them effortlessly, blasting into the engineering hull. A second torpedo launches as the disruptors discharge, the energy beams slicing into the saucer section.

INT Enterprise Bridge

The ship rocks, hard. Several ND crewmen are thrown from their stations, though the senior officers somehow manage to stay in place.

Worf: "They have found a way to penetrate our shields!"

Riker (thinking quickly): "Worf! Do we still have that shield remodulating program on file we used against the Borg?"

Worf: (slightly confused): "Aye sir"

Riker: (urgent) "Activate it right now! New modulations every point two five seconds!"

Worf: "Aye!"

Worf keys the sequence just in time...

EXT Space

Another Vor'Cha class Cruiser and two Birds of Prey decloak in formation. The second cruiser directly above the first, the BOP holding on the flanks. Both Cruisers open fire, but this time the shield holds.

INT Bridge

The Helm EXPLODES, sending an ND Helmsmen flying back. Riker doesn't miss a beat.

Worf: "Dorsal and ventral phaser arrays at fifty percent integrity!"

Riker: "Deana take the helm! Maximum impulse right between those cruisers. Worf, target the dorsal cruiser, hit it with everything you have as we pass!"

Troi scrambles onto the helm and rapidly keys the console as medics rush onto the bridge to treat the injured people. Worf works his console with a will.

Worf: "Target locked, firing!"

*EXT Space*

The Enterprise suddenly kicks forward into full impulse, screaming between the almost too small gap between the two Klingon capital ships. The two Birds of Prey which had been swinging around to hit the Enterprise from behind are left flat footed, their volleys of disruptor fire are clean misses. As the Enterprise approaches, we can see the damage to her forward hull. The phasers arrays had been targeted from the fire shot and severed in several locations...

Which doesn't slow her down at all. From the various sections on the array, phaser beams blast raw power forward at the Cruiser, concentrating on its forward section and visibly slapping the cruiser up with its firepower. A torpedo launches from the E-D, then splits into a full salvo, collapsing its shields with a flash as the Enterprise roars by. A split second later, the ships aft phasers and torpedoes open fire, the phasers rake a hole into the underside and a second salvo of torpedoes happily skips into it, the Cruiser exploding into a massive fireball.

*INT Primary Cruiser Bridge*

*Spoken in Klingon, with English subtitles*

Lursor: (shocked) "The Pak'Rosh is lost!"
Betor: (amazed) "Enterprise's shields have remodulated!"
Lusor (furious) "Pursue! Drown them in their own blood! (To ND Klingon) "You! Bring the warp inhibitor online! They will not escape us!"

*Cue intercut to Picard and Sorren on the ground*


*EXT SPACE*

The Enterprise roars around into the Night side of Veridan III, towards its only natural satellite, its three impulse engines blazing. In the far distance, the dying explosion that makes the funeral pyre of the Attack Cruiser silhouettes the three Klingon ships as they set in pursuit. The much faster Birds of Prey waver and CLOAK.

*INT E-D Bridge*

BACKGROUND
Medics effeciently move the wounded off into the Turbolifts are replacement officers swing onto the stations vacated. There is a background of steady chatter and activity in the smoke filled bridge, but not a chaotic one, simply professionals doing their job.

*Overlaying Above, we focus in on Data already giving a damage report*

Data: "-shield generators one through three destroyed in the opening salvo, four through eight operating, but the extra coverage they have to make up has dropped shield strength to thirty five percent! Hull breaches isolated and forward Phasers at thirty percent strength"

Worf: "Enemy Battlecruiser is loosing ground, we have cleared communications jamming. Starbase One Six Nine has acknowledged our signal, the Fauragant, Victorious and Intrepid are en route, ETA two hours"

Riker (dryly) "Only about one and a half hours too late. (Focusing again) "Data, overlay warp inhibitor range on the tactical display".

*The main screen flashes to show a scale graphic of Veridan III, the Enterprise and the Klingon Cruiser. The Klingon Cruiser is rapidly falling astern from the faster Enterprise. A hazy red sphere projected from the Cruiser shows the range of its inhibitor and Riker gets an idea in his eyes.

"Data, transfer emergency power to the Impulse Engines, I need all the speed you can get me. Deanna, lay in a slingshot orbit around that moon back the way we came. Worf, assuming optimal piloting and speed by the Klingons, where would those Birds of Prey be?"

*Everyone starts working their consoles. Overlapping:*

Data "Engines at One hundred forty percent, we will hit the red line in four minutes"
Deanna: "Course laid in"
Riker: "Engage!"
Worf: "Projected plot onscreen"

*The screen shows two yellow ghostly BOP icons slowly gaining on the Enterprise, well back but drawing closer. Riker stares for a moment, then nods*

Riker: "Take us into the Slingshot, maintain maximum impulse, as close to the surface as you can make it. Worf, drop a class four stealth probe behind us into a high polar orbit as we go behind along the equator"

Worf: "Aye...(he works his console) probe away"

Riker: "Deanna, change places, I need Data on the Con."
Troi looks back in surprise for a second, then without hesitation the two swap. Data sits down and his hands move like lightning

Data (emotion chip clearly ON) "Hang onto your asses!"

EXT Space.

*At a significant speed, the E-D under Data’s expert hands rolls and dives for the surface, pulling up a scant hundred meters above the surface. It is a dramatic site on the Dark side of the moon, the surface is literally a featureless blur and you can see the stars in the sky moving thanks to the speed of the orbit, the ship skipping across the terrain as Data handles her like a fighter*

INT Bridge

Worf (urgent) "Sir! Birds of prey Decloaking in our exit vector, right where they think we can't see them. They are charging weapons!"

*The main viewscreen tactical display shows the E-D's icon rounding the moon and the two BOP icons suddenly flashing red as they appear directly in the E-D's projected path halfway between the planet and moon. The Battlecruiser is still struggling to close up, but the warp inhibitor field it is projecting is just starting to reach the BOP location as the E-D moves into daylight around the final curve...

Geordi: (pained) "Bridge, Impulse fusion reactors are overloading!"
Riker: (urgent) "Data now, maximum warp, brace for crash stop!"
Data: "Warp engines engaged!-"

EXT Enterprise

*Space warps for a fraction of a second, really in between frames the planet grows larger and two Birds of Prey appear at point blank range as the ship is yanked out of warp by the inhibitor field. Possibly do this from the BOP perspective?

Worf is ready and a shattering volley of phaser and torpedo fire blasts one Bird of Prey into a fiery explosion and cripples another, blowing a wing off and sending it into a spin.*

INT BOP Bridge

*A ND Klingon Captain, badly injured but paying his mortal wounds no mind at all struggles to the helm. As the Enterprise comes into view on the screen, he slams a control and screams (in Klingon with English undertones)

ND Captain: "TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE!"

The crippled BOP suddenly stops spinning and leaps forward at high speed, ramming the near motionless Enterprise dead aft and exploding in an enormous explosion that sends the Enterprise herself spinning 180 degrees*

*INT Bridge*

The Science stations and mission opps station at the back of the bridge explode violently sending ND crewmembers flying as the ship rocks almost uncontrollably. Data is the only one who doesn't move, his hands flying at a blur across his console.

Riker: "STABALISE THE-"

*The rocking stops*

"Riker (finishes a little weaker): "ship"

Worf: "We've lost shields and the aft torpedo launchers"

Deana: "Warp drive is down and we have major hull breaches along the dorsal star drive hull!"

*And the worst of all*

*INT Engine room*

*The warp core is hissing and spluttering sparks, panels have blown out and consoles flicker and in it runs Geordie like a conductor trying desperately to keep the band playing, ND engineers run everywhere with various bits and pieces of equipment, hammering at consoles E.T.C.*

ND Engineer: "The PTC's have been ruptured, we're going to have to kill the starboard nacelle as well, unless we-"

*The core suddenly sends a panel blowing off at the top and warp plasma coolant suddenly starts poring out. Automatically, a force field activates around the warp core, trapping the deadly coolant in a pocket around it, but also blocking any access to the core itself. The background hum of the warp core suddenly starts to rapidly rise in pitch*

Geordie (hurried & shouting but calm): "COOLENT LEAK! WE HAVE A COOLENT LEAK IN HERE, LETS GO LETS MOVE IT!"

*The half dozen engineering officers scramble under the closing blast doors Geordie counting them out then rolling barely in time under the doors*

Geordie: (continued still talking but not shouting) "Bridge! We have a new problem, we're two minutes from a warp core breach, there is nothing I can do!" He stands up as the door clacks behind. "Computer, prepare to eject the warp core, code La'Forge Alpha six two Seven!"

Computer: "Unable to comply. Structural frames sixty through seventy damaged, warp core ejection tunnel obstructed".

Geordie (under breath): "Perfect. (normal volume, in BG warp core noise rises to a screech): "Bridge, core ejection system is offline! Alright, everyone out of here now!"

The Engineering staff all poor out of the engine room as even more blast doors close behind them.

INT Bridge:

Data: (overlapping) "Enemy Battlecruiser is closing, entering optimal weapons range!"

Deanna: "Core breach in one minute, thirty seconds!"

*The ship shakes as weapons fire blasts her hull*

Worf: "Forward torpedo magazine destroyed, only four torpedoes remain. Forward phasers down to five percent!"

Riker: "Deanna, can you detect any Trilithium on that ship?"

Deanna: "Scanning...yes, I have Trilithium signatures in their aft cargo bay"

*The ship shudders again*

Riker: "Then they may have the weapon on board...we can't risk the Duras sisters running around with Trilithium technology. Riker to all hands, all personal abandon ship! Data, set a collision course, divert all energy to the SIF and engage at full impulse"

*Data works his console as the ND crewmembers on the bridge rush into the conference room exit, the access point to the bridge lifeboats. Not one of the senior officers leaves their posts*

"Collision course set. Warp core breach in twenty seconds".

*EXT Space*

*The Enterprise, now with flames trailing from a dozen large breaches and one of her nacelles dark starts to accelerate towards the enemy ship, disruptor fire still tearing chunks out of her hull. Lifeboats start to shoot from their hatches as well as a few shuttles from the hanger*

*Int Cruiser Bridge*

ND Klingon: "Mistress! Enterprise holds her course!"
Lursor: (realising): "They are going to ram us!"
Betor: (shouting) : "EVASIVE STARBOARD, NOW! ALL WEAPONS FIRE!"

*EXT SPACE*

*The massive Battlecruiser starts to shift its course into a sharp turn. Her main disruptor cannon fires a desperate burst as four torpedoes salvo in reply. The burst tears through the saucer from front to rear causing explosions to rip across it, the bridge detonating and killing the crew...but four million tons of mass doesn't stop that easily and the torpedoes detonate-

*INT Cruiser Bridge*

*Bridge rocks and explosions of consoles around the bridge*

ND Klingon: "Forward shields damaged, collision in five seconds!"

Betor: (panicking and looks at her sister): "Now what?!"
Lursor (ice cold): "Now we die" She opens her mouth to start the Klingon warrior scream, but the screen flashes white-

*EXT Space*

*The Enterprise-D dies, embracing the cruiser as her warp core breaches. The Saucer crumples and detonates first, damaging the enemy ship a split second before the warp core lets loose, taking both ships out. The few escape pods and shuttles that survived head towards Veridan III, the sun rising across her horizon....

FOCUS ON SUN, fade in the blue sky of Veridan III with the same sun, then PAN down to show the Picard / Sorren situation. As before, he fails, the rocket launches and the sun explodes. The Nexus arrives and sucks the two of them into it, we then see the shockwave slam into the planet and start to rip it apart. We focus for a second on the wide valley that served as the LZ for the pods and shuttles as the shockwave rips over.

Usual crap with Picard and Kirk on the Nexus. Except this time, Picard decides there is no point trying to stop Sorren on the ground and he doesn't want his ship to fry, so he and Kirk materialise in the conference room on the E-D.

Kirk: "I take it this is..."
Picard: "The Enterprise.” (a little more information as Kirk looks over the ship models) D"

*The ship suddenly rocks hard and the two nearly loose their balance. Kirk takes in the situation and red alert lights*

Kirk: "Bad time?"
Picard (making a beeline for the Bridge): "My guess would be the Klingons"
Kirk: *under his breath as they exit onto the Bridge* "Again with the Klingons..."

*As before, this time with Picard and Kirk exiting onto the Bridge*

Riker: "Then they may have the weapon on board...we can't risk the Duras sisters running around with Trilithium weapons-

Picard: "Number One!"

Riker (stands and whirls): "Captain?!" *then he catches sight of the person following him. Astonishment, awe and confusion war across his face. "..Captain?"

Picard: "No time to explain Commander" Picard takes the tactical situation at a glance from the tactical display like only a great Captain can. "Transporter rooms, evacuation procedure Omega Six, transport all Stardrive Personal to the Saucer section. Deanna, prepare for emergency separation procedure Alpha four.

INT Stardrive, the majority of the crew are already in the saucer as are all the civilians of course, the crew rapidly start to vanish in the transporter effects as all the transporter rooms on the ship move into operation.

*INT Bridge*

*The Turbolift opens and Geordie runs out and heads for the engineering station, quickly checking over the readings*

Geordie: "Stardrive is clear!"

Deanna: "Core breach in ten seconds!"

Picard: (Tone of command) "Separate, Now!"

Riker: "Fire charges! Data straight up the Z Axis!"

*Ext Space*

*The 'neck' between the Saucer and Stardrive suddenly is wreathed in explosions as the explosives bolts detonate, chewing the two sections apart, debris spinning away, almost instantly the saucer tilts 80 degrees and blasts away...a fraction of a second later, the main disruptor on the Vor'Cha passes harmlessly through open space, the Stardrive on remote control firing the torpedoes away at the Cruiser.

*INT Cruiser Bridge*

*Bridge rocks and explosions of consoles around the bridge*

ND Klingon: "Forward shields damaged, collision in five seconds!"

Betor: (panicking and looks at her sister): "Now what?!"
Lursor (ice cold): "Now we die" She opens her mouth to start the Klingon warrior scream, but the screen flashes white-

*Ext Space*

*The Stardrive slams into the Cruiser and detonates, the explosion wiping them both out. The Saucer is accelerating like a bat out of hell and clears the shockwave, heading into an orbit towards Veridan III*

*Int Bridge*

Picard: "I see you have been busy Will"

Riker (weak smile) "You could say that...uh Sir?" (Riker nods at Kirk who had been standing and watching the crew work.

Picard: "May I present Capitan James Tiberius Kirk? Captain, Commander Riker, my Executive Officer"

Kirk (Nods): "Commander.”
Riker: “Captain."
*Worf and Kirk exchange...a look, very much WTF?*
Kirk (To Picard): " I think we have unfinished business Captain..."

Picard: "Of course. Commander, assemble a fully armed away team in transporter room one. Sorren is still down there with a Trilithium weapon. He'll launch in a matter of minutes".

Riker: "Of course Sir." *Gestures to Worf*

Worf (In background): Security team to transporter room one, full field kit"

Picard: (In foreground): "I know you have questions, I'm afraid they'll have to wait. We don't have time. I'll have to beam back down if we are going to end this".

Kirk: "I'm coming with you"

Picard (debates with himself for a second, then a sardonic grin spread across his face): "Who am *I* to argue with a Captain of the Enterprise?"

*The two Captains Exit with Worf. The bridge is silent for a few seconds.*

Data: (Brightly, emotions not under control still) "Would someone like to tell me what the fuck is going on?"



On the surface of the planet, Picard, Kirk and the security team try to get Sorren to stop. He laughs, Worf uses a shield destabilising thingy to open a hole everyone jumps through, then Sorren attacks with a powerful Disruptor rifle, think a SAW. Doggedly the Starfleeters push up. Kirk is cut off and heads around to the missile starting to disable it. Sorren catches him and makes his 'Unless I am mistaken, you're dead!" speech. Kirk just smiles...and lifts up a critical control crystal as the launcher suddenly whines to launch.

Insert some snappy dialogue in the few seconds, Picard and Co see Kirk as the launcher detonates and destroys the missile, the Nexus passes overhead harmlessly. Sorren got clear and Picard finds him simply sitting, defeated in that little office.

Sorren: "They say time is the fire in which we burn....if I can not make the exception...then I will prove the rule".

His disruptor whines and detonates, Picard barely getting clear, a little bruised but ok. Worf gets him up and they find Kirk. Badly burned. Worf shouts for a medic who comes, but he is beyond help. Kirk again asks if they made a difference...Picard assures him there are two hundred and sixty five million people who would very much agree they did. Kirk dies in peace, a smile on his face.

Back on the E-D Saucer (looking beat up as all hell compared to the perfect hulls of the 3 other Starfleet ships with her. Similar ending. Picard and Riker have their same talk, however the Saucer is so heavily damaged that it would never withstand warp travel, Starfleet orders it destroyed immediately before the people on Veridan II point a telescope in the right place. Picard and Riker are the last off the bridge as the systems wheeze to a stop, along with the flag draped torpedo coffin of Capitan Kirk. End with the Saucer being nudged with a tractor beam directly towards the systems sun...hold...then the 3 Starships angle off and jump to warp...then the sun glow covers the screen, roll credits.

*looks back at what I wrote*

Holy SHIT. It just kept going and going and going....

[Stofsk]

*looks back at what I wrote*

Holy SHIT. It just kept going and going and going....

Not bad. I don't like Generations or its plot, but your rewrite would have been a 100% more enjoyable than the Moore/Braga version.

[Lord Revan]

I would just change the BOP vs. E-D to more realist fight between, by having the BOP use it's speed and small size to it's advance and the Enterprise would use it's firepower to counter that.

[Alyeska]

I would just change the BOP vs. E-D to more realist fight between, by having the BOP use it's speed and small size to it's advance and the Enterprise would use it's firepower to counter that.

The BOP realisticaly can not contend with the Enterprise.

[brianeyci]

A couple final questions.

1. So Riker never says "modulate the shield frequencies"?

2. So Riker never says "fire at will"?

3. So do we get a shot of the BOP where we can conclusively say that it was a B'rel class and not a K'Vort class, for example the BOP really close to the Ent-D?

Brian

[Lord Revan]

I would just change the BOP vs. E-D to more realist fight between, by having the BOP use it's speed and small size to it's advance and the Enterprise would use it's firepower to counter that.

The BOP realisticaly can not contend with the Enterprise.

But the Duras BOP can destroy a Galaxy class ship, if the captain uses his/her ships good compared to a Galaxy (faster, more manouverble and has a cloaking device). The Duras' sisters tactics were sucidial (a connie ouguns a BOP 10:1 and GCS with out dout outguns a connie).

I think for Generations it would have been better that E-D would turned the D-12 into flaming wreck that rams the Enterprice instead Riker letting the E-D take worse beating then a nerd in lunch line.

[Darth Wong]

Lursa and Betor should have used their knowledge of the E-D's shield frequency to transport old-fashioned chemical explosives (ie- say that an antimatter bomb might explode on transport; something I believe we've actually heard before IIRC) into the ship's engine room. The explosion cripples the ship and causes massive, irreparable damage to the warp core, thus forcing Riker to do an emergency saucer separation before the main section explodes and giving the Klingons the huge opening-gambit advantage they need in order to give them a victory over a Galaxy-class starship.

The stardrive section explodes and the funky subspace blast wave (or flying debris, or sheer energy release) damages the saucer, thus forcing Riker to somehow take on a Bird of Prey with nothing but a damaged saucer section. Now he might look like a tactical genius if he takes out that Bird of Prey.

[brianeyci]

Khan knew the "weak points" of the Ent-Nil. Its possible that the Duras don't know the layout of the Ent-D well enough to target the bridge or the engineering section (though unlikely, since they had Geordi spying and Geordi was looking directly at a schematic of the Ent-D). Also its possible that a BOP doesn't have this level of accuracy with its weapons. And it is rare that a bridge of a ship is targeted and destroyed -- the only time I remember is the Xindi in Ent in the alternate universe and the Xindi had several ships fire at the bridge before it broke open into space. Perhaps the bridge is so heavily armored that it is rarely targeted unless you have massive firepower. The low-end estimate of a B'rel's disruptors are sub-kiloton (ST:V).

Brian

[Lord Revan]

Khan knew the "weak points" of the Ent-Nil. Its possible that the Duras don't know the layout of the Ent-D well enough to target the bridge or the engineering section (though unlikely, since they had Geordi spying and Geordi was looking directly at a schematic of the Ent-D). Also its possible that a BOP doesn't have this level of accuracy with its weapons. And it is rare that a bridge of a ship is targeted and destroyed -- the only time I remember is the Xindi in Ent in the alternate universe and the Xindi had several ships fire at the bridge before it broke open into space. Perhaps the bridge is so heavily armored that it is rarely targeted unless you have massive firepower. The low-end estimate of a B'rel's disruptors are sub-kiloton (ST:V).

Brian

Well the BOP opened fire with torps and Bridge has fired and breached in ST:Nemesis.

also it's more probable that the Main bridge is surrounded by other rooms so the only way to neutralize the main bridge to target the center part of the bridge struture. also targeting a bridge of a starship seem to bee very rare period or have you seen hits near the bridge (apart of ST:Nemesis, ST:VI or the ENT episode "Twilight").

[brianeyci]

Well the BOP opened fire with torps and Bridge has fired and breached in ST:Nemesis.

also it's more probable that the Main bridge is surrounded by other rooms so the only way to neutralize the main bridge to target the center part of the bridge struture. also targeting a bridge of a starship seem to bee very rare period or have you seen hits near the bridge (apart of ST:Nemesis, ST:VI or the ENT episode "Twilight").

Obvious one you're missing is ST:II. They targeted the bridge and a huge beam fell on Khan.

Brian

[Lord Revan]

Well the BOP opened fire with torps and Bridge has fired and breached in ST:Nemesis.

also it's more probable that the Main bridge is surrounded by other rooms so the only way to neutralize the main bridge to target the center part of the bridge struture. also targeting a bridge of a starship seem to bee very rare period or have you seen hits near the bridge (apart of ST:Nemesis, ST:VI or the ENT episode "Twilight").

Obvious one you're missing is ST:II. They targeted the bridge and a huge beam fell on Khan.

Brian

Well it and ST:VI are not really incidents of the bridge getting targeted, as in ST:II (main) target was impulse engines and in ST:VI the torp homed in the plasma wake wasn't locked on anything per se. So while the bridge was hit in both cases it was more due to luck then tactic.

[Alyeska]

I would just change the BOP vs. E-D to more realist fight between, by having the BOP use it's speed and small size to it's advance and the Enterprise would use it's firepower to counter that.

The BOP realisticaly can not contend with the Enterprise.

But the Duras BOP can destroy a Galaxy class ship, if the captain uses his/her ships good compared to a Galaxy (faster, more manouverble and has a cloaking device). The Duras' sisters tactics were sucidial (a connie ouguns a BOP 10:1 and GCS with out dout outguns a connie).

I think for Generations it would have been better that E-D would turned the D-12 into flaming wreck that rams the Enterprice instead Riker letting the E-D take worse beating then a nerd in lunch line.

You still don't get it. A BOP can NOT destroy a Galaxy class under any realistic circumstances.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You still don't get it. A BOP can NOT destroy a Galaxy class under any realistic circumstances.

Thus, the only way a BoP can destroy a Galaxy class is through unrealistic circumstances. Like if they decided to only fire a couple of times and running away instead of firing all weapons and pursuing their enemy.

Which is exactly what they did. An unrealistic action, resulted in an unrealistic result.

[Lord Revan]

You still don't get it. A BOP can NOT destroy a Galaxy class under any realistic circumstances.

I don't know about you, but I think decloaking, firing a salvo with disruptors (and torps) and Recloaking and reapting this as many times it is needed can be considered realistic (since federation ship don't normaly keep shields up you can take out the warp drive before the GCS escapes). of course this is not honourble, possible as federation ship can't detect cloaked ships. the lack of shield in your ship creates a prolems (and since Dominion bugs can take out a vorcha (or a GCS) by ramming it, it's not that big of streach think that a BOP could do the same to a GCS.)

[Darth Wong]

OK, here's another idea: what if the Duras sisters modified Geordi's visor to put a bomb in there? There have been very small high-explosive bombs before in Trek: one Klingon used one that was embedded in his arm to take out some sort of diplomatic conference in an attempt to kill Gowron.

If they waited for Geordi to go into engineering and then set it off when he's right next to the warp core, the explosion would presumably kill all of the nearby crew and perhaps damage something around the warp core, thus forcing the saucer separation I used in my previous scenario.

Of course, I recognize that this means Geordi would have to die. Oh well, he's a completely flat character anyway.

[brianeyci]

I don't know about you, but I think decloaking, firing a salvo with disruptors (and torps) and Recloaking and reapting this as many times it is needed can be considered realistic

No. In ST:III Kirk had forever to fire at the BOP while it was "charging weapons". Such a tactic is not feasible. Also, as soon as a ship decloaks, it cannot recloak and decloak again because a ship could fire spatial charges (REF:VOY) which forces a ship to decloak. They can't use spatial charges if they don't know that a ship is there, but if they know the ship is decloaking and recloaking they could use them. And the decloaking and recloaking and powering weapons and raising sheilds process is not that fast, it takes up to a minute.

(since federation ship don't normaly keep shields up you can take out the warp drive before the GCS escapes). of course this is not honourble, possible as federation ship can't detect cloaked ships.

Depends on the type of cloak, depends on the type of ship, depends on whether the GCS is expecting a fight with the Klingons. In ST:V the Ent detected the BOP at long range approaching while nobody was paying attention to the consoles. Tell me it would be hard to reprogram the computer to automatically raise shields as soon as Klingon ships appear on sensors. This wouldn't happen in peacetime, but in a war if Klingons started using your tactic the auto-shields is an obvious countermeasure.

Using cloak itself is not "honorable" at all, yet they use it all the time. Also Klingons should be the ones sitting in huge oversized battleships rather than flying around in swarms of BOP. Can't really use cultural factors to decide what the Klingons would or wouldn't do.

the lack of shield in your ship creates a prolems (and since Dominion bugs can take out a vorcha (or a GCS) by ramming it, it's not that big of streach think that a BOP could do the same to a GCS.)

Klingons already used this tactic. I believe in ST:DS9 we've seen several BOP's ram into Jem'Hadar ships either accidently or purposefully to disable them.

Brian

[brianeyci]

OK, here's another idea: what if the Duras sisters modified Geordi's visor to put a bomb in there?

The obvious problem is the transporter safety mechanisms. I know there are explosives that go through them, Ultrinium I believe, but risking your plot for an explosive that might be filtered out doesn't seem wise. If they found an explosive in Geordi's visor, they would probably isolate the visor and take it apart, finding the surveillance equipment. Better not to risk it. The shield frequency is a sure bet (or shouldn't have been so sure if Riker hadn't been a retard, how the hell did the Duras sisters know maybe they fucked it out of Geordi).

Brian

[Uraniun235]

Only issues I have with Chris' rewrite is that the warp core cooks off and the ejection system is hosed; the technobabble excuse doesn't really work anyway since the TM suggests that the big blue glowy tube extends clear down to the bottom of the ship. Since the E-D's already doing a collision course kill, I don't see why we couldn't just have the warp core simply rendered inoperable by battle damage. Otherwise I would have loved to see it played out. (Of course, this scene would also make the E-D about ten times more badass than the E-E ever was.)

Wasn't there some early early early version of the story where the Romulans were involved and the E-D chopped off the nosepiece of a Warbird by ramming the neck?