Borg

[Robert Walper]

I am well aware that tech is 'invented' at the whim of the writers but I thought suspension of disbelief was your thing? I could have turned around and said the writing team suck but I attempting to rationalize. What's the point in even arguing in defence if you are going to back out of it with this shit about 'trek routinely invents useful tech for plot advancement'. Can't have it both ways...

You misunderstand. I was pointing out the fact that Torres used a completely unique method of acquiring a transporter lock, a method never heard of or seen before. This type of "ingenious inspiration" is a apparent constant is Star Trek. This is viable from a "in universe" perspective. I was pointing out that it seems a bit ridiculas to think that if one person figures a unique way of doing something, everyone else must be stupid for not having done so earlier. As I understand it, Federation transporters used comm badges to locate and acquire a transport target. God only knows how many modifications and jury rigging Torres was implementing before actually using this new transport lock method. IIRC, she said she had been working on it for awhile before using it in the Species 8472 incident.

I think Mike, however he communicates it, makes a very valid point.

^evilcat4000, indeed, considering a 'normal' cube wiped out 359 and the Earth defensive fleet in FC, you wonder how Voyager sailed on through eh? Ah yes, with those magical, routinely invented techs and strategies which are beyond them in all circumstances normally.

Actually, it was because the Borg Queen singled Seven of Nine out as one of her "favorites". Destroying Voyager would by all reason kill Seven of Nine. The Borg Queen made it abundantly clear, multiple times, that she ran "interference" for Voyager. We even saw an example of this in STVOY "Endgame". Hell, in STVOY "Dark Frontier" the Borg Queen even let a bunch of no name people off the hook(a cube had them tractored and was pulling them in) just because Seven of Nine asked her to. Does it really seem that ridiculas the Borg would pull their punches against Voyager given this knowledge? I think not. Hell, when Voyager first encountered a Borg cube (ref STVOY "Scorpion"), the cube dropped Voyager's shields with it's frigging tractor beam and dragged her around like a dog on a leash. It was only after Seven of Nine's presence onboard Voyager that the Borg "seemingly" became weak. I hardly consider that a coincidence.

[Superman]

I was pointing out the fact that Torres used a completely unique method of acquiring a transporter lock, a method never heard of or seen before. This type of "ingenious inspiration" is a apparent constant is Star Trek.

We have a name for that. It's called "technobabble."

[Robert Walper]

I was pointing out the fact that Torres used a completely unique method of acquiring a transporter lock, a method never heard of or seen before. This type of "ingenious inspiration" is a apparent constant is Star Trek.

We have a name for that. It's called "technobabble."

I'm aware of that. That does not refute the point that just because someone is inspired to create said technobabble, anyone else who did not create or think of it is automatically labelled stupid. There are plenty of times someone can invent a new method of accomplishing something familar or new. This does not make everyone else stupid. That's my point.

[Darth Wong]

I was pointing out the fact that Torres used a completely unique method of acquiring a transporter lock, a method never heard of or seen before. This type of "ingenious inspiration" is a apparent constant is Star Trek.

We have a name for that. It's called "technobabble."

I'm aware of that. That does not refute the point that just because someone is inspired to create said technobabble, anyone else who did not create or think of it is automatically labelled stupid. There are plenty of times someone can invent a new method of accomplishing something familar or new. This does not make everyone else stupid. That's my point.

You have no point, you stupid fan-wanking asshole. It is neither unique or ingenious to use mineral-tracking sensors to track the minerals in someone's body. In fact, it's precisely what the sensors were designed to do, for fuck's sake. The only amazing thing here is that it actually required reconfiguration at all, since you would think this is how they normally lock onto inanimate objects. I hope you don't ever work for the fucking patent office someday; your inability to distinguish between obvious and non-obvious "innovations" is pathetic.

[Darth Wong]

I do not appreciate it when someone ignores virtually all of my points in order to seize upon a nitpick, Walper. I will remember this.

I suppose the fact I only had a couple of minutes to post before heading off the work wouldn't cut it with you, huh?

No, you whiny little piece of shit. If you didn't have time to respond, you could have not responded. Instead, you chose to take a cheap shot while ignoring almost all of my points.

I quoted you on the specific point also brought by another person to further illustrate my point and answer their criticism. Sorry Mike, you may be the head huncho around here, but that doesn't mean I can answer your replies immediately. I had a choice of answering one small reply or none at all. Sorry if that ticked you off.

No, you chose to answer a post by taking a cheapshot at me, you little fuckwad. Not only do you lack the integrity to respond to points properly rather than nitpicking, but you're not even man enough to admit it when you're caught. Fuck you.

I had every intention of replying fully to your post, and still can if you desire. However, I strongly suspect you will reply I'm wasting your time.

Maybe because you have no fucking points. You have already ignored or evaded numerous key points several times; it is blatantly clear to all observers that you are simply trapped in a mindless cycle of Borg fan-wankery and nothing will break you out of it.

Let me put it this way. From what I can tell, you are utterly convinced the Borg were completely stupid as opposed to lacking a practical or feasible method to acquire Species 8472 tissue. Correct?

Voyager could do it. Numerous methods have been proposed through which they could do it. Your response to all of it is that S-8472 is virtually omnipotent and never left a trace of itself anywhere that the Borg could find it (which is manifestly untrue), all in the name of pretending that the Borg are not idiots. No rationalization is too absurd; you start from the assumption that the Borg are capable of rational thought and analysis despite their numerous astounding tactical and strategic mistakes and omissions, and then you try to explain away every single mistake and/or omission by invoking any and all possible excuses, no matter how contrived, convoluted, far-fetched, or absurd they may be. In the end, you end up resorting to the weak-kneed argument that we can't absolutely disprove your excuses, which makes about as much sense as the "no disproof" argument for the existence of God.

That being the case, what is the point of me even trying to say otherwise? Apparently any disagreement on my part accomplishes nothing more then you or your minions amusing yourselves with your admin/moderator powers.

Oh I see, whine about abuse of moderator powers. Classic excuse of the evasive dipshit. I notice that you have STILL made no attempt to answer any of the key points, preferring instead to whine about your treatment. Please, by all means, name one person here that you have managed to convince of the validity of your bullshit.

When faced with a litany of serious mistakes and omissions, a normal person will look at the data at face value and conclude that the entity in question was incompetent. This is how one goes from evidence to conclusion, not the other way around. You start with the conclusion that the Borg are competent, and then try to prove that every single example of their incompetence was actually something else. You don't even realize that you're doing it. Classic example of a dishonest Borg wan-whore.

[Lord Poe]

So after the Borg declared themselves victorious in a battle Species 8472, they could easily retrieve...oh wait. The Borg never won a battle against Species 8472. A single bio ship can dust fifteen of their top end vessels without apparently breaking a sweat and nine of them can destroy an entire Borg planet. Darn.

I guess you didn't see "Scorpion." One Borg cube side-swiped a bio-ship and destroyed it. Another cube could have easily sifted through the remains.

Then of course, there was the 8472 cofferdam stuck to a cube. Did we see one drone transmit a sample of this 8472 material to another cube? Nope.

Transporter functions are interfered with by Species 8472 tissue. Voyager couldn't beam out Kim because of this, not until Torres employed some on-the-fly-jury-rigged-never-heard-of-before "skeletal lock".

Yetr they had no problem in a later episode of beaming out an 8472 alien to a Hirogen ship in "Prey"

[Sarevok]

Then of course, there was the 8472 cofferdam stuck to a cube. Did we see one drone transmit a sample of this 8472 material to another cube? Nope.

Actualy a drone was seen trying to assimilate that ship when the Voyger boarding party beamed. It however was not succesful due to Species 8472 biology.

[Lord Poe]

Actualy a drone was seen trying to assimilate that ship when the Voyger boarding party beamed. It however was not succesful due to Species 8472 biology.

Yesss.... and after maybe the third try, why didn't he scan it and transmit the info to another cube? No, he stood there like Hymie the Robot from Get Smart trying to assimilate it over, and over, and over, and over...

[Robert Walper]

Alright Mike, enough is enough. Apparently I'm wasting my time, yours and everyone elses.

I insist you delete my account with StarDestroyer.net. Seriously.

This will prevent any further temptations on my part to defend the Borg in absolutely any way, and stop any further contamination of your boards with my fan whoring and incompetence at debating.

I will not take offense nor attempt to use this as a way of claiming "victory" as some others have. Sound fair?

[Superman]

Walper, the thing is that you are trying to tell us that they can't spare the cubes to investigate Species 90210 when they're being threatened. Voyager has already showed us that the Borg only ASSIMILATE. They don't investigate. They've been rewritten. Can't you see that?

[Darth Wong]

Alright Mike, enough is enough. Apparently I'm wasting my time, yours and everyone elses.

I insist you delete my account with StarDestroyer.net. Seriously.

This will prevent any further temptations on my part to defend the Borg in absolutely any way, and stop any further contamination of your boards with my fan whoring and incompetence at debating.

I will not take offense nor attempt to use this as a way of claiming "victory" as some others have. Sound fair?

Why am I not surprised that you would rather stalk off the board than concede the point? What is it that makes you so reluctant to admit the VOY-era Borg are incompetent? If someone tells me that Palpatine was an idiot for his foolish behaviour in ROTJ I'll just admit that he was, because it's fucking obvious. Why can't you do the same for the Borg? What is it that drives you to pretend that every single example of their incompetence can be explained away? What is it that makes you so reluctant to admit the VOY-era Borg's failings that you would rather stalk off the board?

[Superman]

He's a Borg fundie!

Knock it off.

[Robert Walper]

Why am I not surprised that you would rather stalk off the board than concede the point?

Actually, it's more to do with repeatedly being called a troll, moron, fan whore, liar, etc. SD.net policy and behavior clearly indicates such people are not welcome here. I'm merely trying to save the trouble of making you or others seemingly forcing me off the board, by willingly leaving it without any of the childish "they kicked me cuz I was right" or other pitiful excuses others have created.

What is it that makes you so reluctant to admit the VOY-era Borg are incompetent?

I'm reluctant to conclude incompetence when other plausible scenarios are available, even if they require some extra speculation(this sci fi outlook is not limited to the Borg, or even Star Trek). I'm well aware of this "violating" relentless and inflexible application of Occam's Razor, but given the nature of the topics under discussion and the fact we are only witnessing piecemeal events of the whole, I don't consider this unreasonable.

If someone tells me that Palpatine was an idiot for his foolish behaviour in ROTJ I'll just admit that he was, because it's fucking obvious.

Honestly, I can't say I'm entirely certain to what you're specifically referring to. However, I'd submit hindsight is 20/20. Did you determine Palpatine an idiot while watching ROTJ for the first time, or was it only after considerable afterthought and analysis?

Why can't you do the same for the Borg? What is it that drives you to pretend that every single example of their incompetence can be explained away?

Where have I stated that every single example of Borg incompetence can be explained away? My goal is to merely inquire and suggest there may be other reasons as to why situations and examples came to be without resorting to incompetence arguement(I consider that a last resort. I've made no secret of that). To claim there are no examples of incompetence or errors on their part would be downright silly IMO. However, I like to give the benefit of the doubt to characters and portrayals of said characters.

What is it that makes you so reluctant to admit the VOY-era Borg's failings that you would rather stalk off the board?

I easily admit the Borg failed to acquire Species 8472 tissue. I merely submitted alternate reasons as to why, rather than immediately resorting to the incompetence arguement right away.


Look, completely ignoring the Borg issue here, the fact of the matter is that I have been repeatedly called a troll, moron, fan whore, liar and an assortment of other creative insults, including by the site creator. I have every reason to believe that when these are said, they are said sincerely, and with no little amount of hostility. This situation has escalated to the point where my avatar has been removed and my custom title renamed to a, while quite humorous, intentionally insulting label. I'm not going to waste the forum's time, nor my own with pointless endeavors that accomplish nothing more that hostile insults. When I joined SD.net, it was for the goal of having fun, not to get worked up about non existent issues which some people really seem to take far too seriously. Not to mention there are apparently more and more instances where I genuinely seem to piss people off, which I find particularily aggravating since I approach the forums with enjoyment in mind.

On the other hand, perhaps I really am just too stupid to effectively engage in these intellectual debates. In which case, everyone's irritation and hostility becomes blindingly clear and understandable.

In either case, it would appear my presence at SD.net serves no further purpose, and I should leave. There are times when someone needs to recognize that he or she is being handed their hat.

[1337n1nj4]

Well damn.

Rob, I'm a new guy here, but I lurked for quite some time before joining--personally I always liked the "fan boy" input you gave. I may not have agreed with all of it, but I can at least appreciate the perspective.

I'd just assume you hung around for that reason. But I'd definitely understand if you felt it was getting to a point where you didn't enjoy it anymore. At the end of the day, it's all stuff made up in somebody's head for fun-- no reason for anybody to get literally pissed off about it.

[Darth Wong]

Why am I not surprised that you would rather stalk off the board than concede the point?

Actually, it's more to do with repeatedly being called a troll, moron, fan whore, liar, etc.

Hey, here's a hint: maybe if you didn't ACT like a fan-whore, you wouldn't be CALLED a fan-whore. Did that ever occur to you? There's a point beyond which you are not just defending something; you're just building a monument to your own stubbornness.

You can't honestly tell me that you sincerely don't realize you're obviously grasping for straws by pretending that the Borg had a valid reason to make no effort whatsoever to obtain and analyze tissue samples from Species 8472.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

You can't honestly tell me that you sincerely don't realize you're obviously grasping for straws by pretending that the Borg had a valid reason to make no effort whatsoever to obtain and analyze tissue samples from Species 8472.

In all fairness Mike, I would argue that they probably DID get a tissue sample, but that the Voyager Borg are so stupid that they couldn't figure out how to exploit that knowledge; even once they had a rough idea of what the Doctor did to their own nano-probes. Afterall it is in Voyager that one gets the idea of they learn purely through assimilation and not through investigation (as you yourself pointed out earlier). In other words, the borg have "forgotten" how to invent.

[Darth Wong]

In all fairness Mike, I would argue that they probably DID get a tissue sample, but that the Voyager Borg are so stupid that they couldn't figure out how to exploit that knowledge; even once they had a rough idea of what the Doctor did to their own nano-probes.

Well, that's a valid proposal, but it would have been equally unacceptable to Robert because it does not exonerate the Borg from the charge of stupidity.

Afterall it is in Voyager that one gets the idea of they learn purely through assimilation and not through investigation (as you yourself pointed out earlier). In other words, the borg have "forgotten" how to invent.

So it would appear that many centuries of simply stealing technology rather than inventing it (and then draining the individuality out of people they assimilate, so they act like, well, drones) have left the Borg incapable of analytical thought

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

So it would appear that many centuries of simply stealing technology rather than inventing it (and then draining the individuality out of people they assimilate, so they act like, well, drones) have left the Borg incapable of analytical thought

Rational Thought is irrelevant- you will be assimilated.

[DaveJB]

Here's some proof of that - in the episode immediately after "Scorpion", Seven (still partially Borgified) is assigned to help Kim fix something important. (Let's not even go into the stupidity of that!)

Seven says something about some Borg technology, and Harry reply is something like "The Borg come up with some pretty neat stuff." Seven's reply is something to the effect of "The Borg do not innovate. We assimilate". I don't remember the exact words they used, but that was definately the jist of what she said.

[Sarevok]

Seven says something about some Borg technology, and Harry reply is something like "The Borg come up with some pretty neat stuff." Seven's reply is something to the effect of "The Borg do not innovate. We assimilate". I don't remember the exact words they used, but that was definately the jist of what she said.

Chalk it up to B & B's incompetence. If the Borg never invented anything how did they assimilate warp drive ? A warp driven craft would be impossible to catch for prewarp Borg.

[Sarevok]

Actualy a drone was seen trying to assimilate that ship when the Voyger boarding party beamed. It however was not succesful due to Species 8472 biology.

Yesss.... and after maybe the third try, why didn't he scan it and transmit the info to another cube? No, he stood there like Hymie the Robot from Get Smart trying to assimilate it over, and over, and over, and over...

Another intetesting thing is the drone never even consider using a tool such as a cuttet to extract samples. It seems Voyger Borg are like primeval animals who realy on their fangs.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Seven says something about some Borg technology, and Harry reply is something like "The Borg come up with some pretty neat stuff." Seven's reply is something to the effect of "The Borg do not innovate. We assimilate". I don't remember the exact words they used, but that was definately the jist of what she said.

Chalk it up to B & B's incompetence. If the Borg never invented anything how did they assimilate warp drive ? A warp driven craft would be impossible to catch for prewarp Borg.

Maybe before they became the borg they had developed warp drive.

[General Zod]

Seven says something about some Borg technology, and Harry reply is something like "The Borg come up with some pretty neat stuff." Seven's reply is something to the effect of "The Borg do not innovate. We assimilate". I don't remember the exact words they used, but that was definately the jist of what she said.

Chalk it up to B & B's incompetence. If the Borg never invented anything how did they assimilate warp drive ? A warp driven craft would be impossible to catch for prewarp Borg.

Maybe before they became the borg they had developed warp drive.

or they become borg after the fact. I seem to recall seven or someone also mentioning that any borg records from more than 500 years or so ago are sketchy at best.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Sorry the borg have reached the point where little old ladies can beat them up on bingo knight

the bynrtlinhk inyrtgsvr msfr motr drndr, rbrn eiyh locustus being able to effect things on remote control..

it was more like a cyberpunk nerolink, come to think of it with would have been more cool if they actually made them bad assed like the razor girl, or a super sniper etc, then the "zombies" we see now.

fuck, clare renfe;d could kill a whole cube without noticing that she's not in Raccon City anymore...

[Patrick Degan]

Ersatz Cybermen. Never took them seriously myself, except perhaps for BOBW.