How desperate are you? I never said there's a conflict with the Queen's statement, because she does not state they control thousands of worlds. This has been repeated to you many times.Robert Walper wrote:That's not a problem. Once again, I ask you to explain how and why Seven's statement conflicts with the Borg VO, or the Queen's statement in ST:FC.SirNitram wrote: Funny, my premise is that the evidence in Scorpion is all accurate...
*snip*
The Queen's comment you already conceeded doesn't show control of territory, you mean? Dishonest fuck.This is the second time your rebuttal consists of nothing more than "my premise is that the information is Scorpion is accurate". And once again, I ask you to explain how the Queen's statement and Seven's statement conflict with information from Scorpion.Yea, the horrible premise of 'Scorpion is accurate'.I don't see how the Queen's statement contradicts the Collective's VO or Seven's statement. All I see is Seven's statement contradicting your submitted premise and resulting math.
As for Seven's statement, there is no conflict when we realize the context of both statements. Context, Robert. Context. That little thing you want to desperately throw out.
Context, dear Robert. That little thing you like to pretend doesn't exist when analyzing quotes.I like how you can easily claim Seven isn't 100% accurate, but Tuvok's statement must be taken at face value, despite it providing nothing more than a lower limit number of attacks.Or, dun dun dun, Seven is not being 100% literal and accurate.Which is obviously incorrect. Even your twenty "total" attacks using this "average" casualty count falls signficantly short of the damage Seven stated Species 8472 did. Obviously this attack was smaller than the other major conflicts the Borg and Species 8472 had, or there were significantly more major conflicts then you are suggesting.
Yet you have no proof for this.Frankly, there's no need to speculate on extra attacks(although of course Tuvok's statement was a lower limit by any definition). I proposed two possible theories. That was one, the other was that previous confrontations were much larger in scale. I don't see how this would be the least bit surprising since naturally a losing side is going to have less and less resources to throw at the enemy during the course of a war.Given that her objective in this statement is to impress the need for caution onto Voyager's crew, and that we have seen the VOY-era Borg have some guile, when there is a choice between 'Invent extra attacks' and 'Assume Seven is not being 100% accurate', I chose the latter. Show why we should invent extra attacks.
In order to make sure these people understand the Species are dangerous fuckers? Voyager had a friggin' cakewalk with them and made them their cowardly bitches. That this sort of thing has to be explained to you is annoying.BTW, why would Seven exaggerate or lie to Tuvok about how many planets Species 8472 destroyed? Tuvok at this time is not her enemy, she has no reason to lie or exaggerate to him.
Context.Please explain why Tuvok's lower limit figure (quote: "at least a dozen occasions") is acceptable, but Seven's lower limit figure (quote: "hundreds of Borg worlds") isn't. You're playing favorites now. This is especially obvious since both parties can be correct and there is no contradiction.Or that Seven isn't being 100% accurate. I realize this concept would shatter your desperate need for the Borg to be uber, but it still exists.
Here, I'll explain it slowly for you, since you need it.
Tuvok Quote:
Context: Report on data they collected. Goal: Get this information to the command crew.
These two imply it will be as close to 100% accurate and objective as possible.
Borg VO:
Context: Report on data and situation from Borg's perspective. Goal: Get this information to Seven.
As above.
Seven Quote:
Context: Expressing concern on an alien species and why she has concern, to a group of people who had a few encounters and didn't even lose one ship to them. Goal: Make them realize they are in danger.
Somewhat akin to a man saying 'They're everywhere!' when trying to warn of snipers in a nearby region.
Where have I suggested we throw out Seven's entirely? Oh yea, I didn't. You're just strawmanning.Are you seriously unable to comprehend that both Tuvok and Seven can be correct, and there is no contradiction?So we must consider which is more likely: That there are dozens of attacks we have no evidence for, or that Seven could be being less than 100% accurate.
No fucking duh, Robert. That's exactly what I said. Do you think this is a clever use of bandwidth?The definition I suggested is "lack of ships to fight with at all" as opposed to "fighting effectively". Clearly the Borg had little effect against Species 8472, even at their full strength at the begining of the war. Using your definition, the Borg lost the war after the first shots were fired by both sides. I reject that definition.If we base 'defeat' off 'inability to fight back effectively', then the Borg had lost well before they lost their fleets. Therefore I reject this definition.Explain how Borg worlds without fleet support would put up any kind of resistance to Species 8472, especially since we've witnessed what Species 8472 does to them. Once the Collective's fleets are destroyed, the war is effectively over. You disagree?
Watch "Star Trek: First Contact".
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