Why does everyone think Jellico's great?

[Patrick Degan]

Probably not, since you seem to have a major hard-on about Picard/Riker...

Actually I dont. Merely pointing out your major hardon for a dipshit of a Captain who was trying to steal a command. How else could he make the comment about Picard not coming back.

Jellicoe had no need to "steal" a command he was formally appointed to. Remember that whole opening scene with the transfer of command ceremony?

[General Zod]

Picard was captain of the Federation flagship. What did Jellicoe command?

Oh wait nothing other than the Enterprise very short term.

jellico would have never been given command of the Enterprise for such an important mission if he had never had command experience before.

[Death from the Sea]

Riker was insubordinate? He spoke with Jellico the same way that he spoke to Picard. He merely made the wrong assumption coming out of the meeting with Jellico over the end result.

Yes, Riker was insubordinate; questioning a superior officer openly infront of the crew, not just senior officers but other crew members as well. Just because Picard tolerated it does not make it right.

Jellico dumped him because pure and simple he didnt kiss Jellico's ass and do things the way JELLICO wanted it done from day one. One example was being told about some event that heppened. Jellico was pissed that Riker had not told him and commented to Picard about how it was obvious why Riker was still only an XO. It was obvious from Picard's reaction that Riker did not tell Jellico because its not something he would have normally bothered Picard with.

It was a fight in 10-forward IIRC and it might not have been something he bothered Picard with but Jellico is not Picard. In fact any other Captain might have wanted to be notified of such occurences, so Riker not being familiar with Jellico should inform him of such infractions, even if it is just telling him that it happened and he handed out a such&such punishment, just so he knows about it in case it causes more problems in the future. Like lets say one of those involved sues the other for assault and somebody from legal drops in to investigate it, it would not look good if the Captain had no knowledge of the incident.

Also remember that while Jellico thinks that Riker is incompetent the rest of Starfleet thinks so much of him that he has been offered multiple commands and has been left in charge of the Enterprise every time Picard was gone except for the one time with Jellico (who was ONLY given command because he was a Cardassian expert).

Riker was not given command because Picard was reassigned, not on an away mission or kidnapped by the Borg. They were able to assign a real Captain to the Enterprise and not just give Riker temporary command. Remember in BoBW Riker was given a field promotion to Captain, and how long did that last? And I only recall Riker being offered the Melbourne and turning it down in BoBW as a matter of fact, but they do refer to him turning down more than that. And lets get this set right, Jellico was not trying to steal anybodies command, he didn't need to he was given command, not temporary command but full command. If Jellico was only supposed to be a temporary Captain they would not have had the formal change of command ceremony.

No you won't! The critical stations will ALWAYS be manned. The extra shift is manadtory if the ship might be involved in a long engagement. A rested crew is better than a bleary-eyed one at the end of a shift. This wasn't a regular Picard coffee clatch mission they were going on, so the duty shifts had to reflect a more military profile.

Rather obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

Actually it is rather obvious you habe no clue what you are talking about MrAnderson, the four shift rotation is more effecient than the three shift rotation.

[Lord Poe]

That could be argued. She is a ship's counsilor. Maybe she has learned over the years that not wearing a uniform makes it easier for the crew to open up to her.

Yeah, the crew can really relax while they're staring at her cleavage, fantasizing about bending her over a photon torpedo...

Yep all Riker did was tell the entire crew what kind of tard Jellyhead was. Yep, the episode was full of it.

And if you knew anything about proper etiquette between an X.O. and the Captain, you'd know Jellico acted accordingly.

Rather obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

Right. And you do, kid? Perhaps in Jellico's experience, a 5.30 shift is the limit for optimum alertness for crewmen on yellow alert.

LOL, kids and fish they are exactly the same thing. Mind if I borrow your car? You won't mind if a repaint it while your gone and have neon added to the bottom cause that is how I like it.

Idiotic false analogy detected. Thanks, drive thru...

Actually I dont. Merely pointing out your major hardon for a dipshit of a Captain who was trying to steal a command. How else could he make the comment about Picard not coming back.

He didn't "steal" command, dumbass. Starfleet gave him the command so they could send a 50 year old diplomat on a commando mission.

[Darth Wong]

Right. And you do, kid? Perhaps in Jellico's experience, a 5.30 shift is the limit for optimum alertness for crewmen on yellow alert.

Even if that's the case, it takes time to make those kinds of adjustments and settle into them, and it's not a good idea to disrupt the operation of a ship with a major change in operating procedures immediately prior to a crisis situation.

MrAnderson has thrown up some clay pidgeons for you to shoot, but the point remains that while everyone appreciates Jellico's military bearing and conduct, his judgement and tactical abilities are nevertheless highly questionable.

[CDiehl]

Actually unless you have people working on more than one shift each shift will be manned by less people not more when you increase the number of shifts.

IE 1000 people on 3 shifts means 333 people on duty at any given time. 1000 people on 4 shifts means 250 people on duty. This means that at any given moment a 4 shift rotation will have only 75% of the crew that a 3 shift rotation will have. This is a simplification but you get the point.

This assumes two things. First, it assumes that the approximately 1,014 persons aboard the Enterprise are all Starfleet personnel. Second, it assumes that the Starfleet contingent is exactly three times the number of people needed to man all the areas for which people are needed. The first assumption fails because you see civilians who live on the Enterprise in a number of episodes, unless you propose that the kids the Aldeans kidnapped were actually crew. The second one fails because whenever a panel blows and fries some ensign, they don't run back to the Starbase to get a replacement. Therefore, I must assume they bring extra crew, so they can do 4 shifts.

Now, someone will cry that this rotation eats up a lot of the redundant crew members. However, it can work. Each shift works 6 hours at its stations, and 6 hours somewhere near their stations either before or after their shift, waiting to replace crew members who have to leave for some reason. If they sleep 8 hours, that leaves 4 hours of fooling-around time. I would guess that the old rotation was 8 hours at your station, 8 hours sleeping, and 8 hours fooling around. If these are what they did and what they changed to, then it explains the complaints the crew had; they were having their leisure time cut in half. Well, it's a military ship about to enter combat, so amusing themselves should be a low priority.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Who?

no, really serious, I missed a season or two of TNG due to working as a hand crew fire fighter and fire dispatch. My 911 duty always took place when TNG was on Saturdays....

[Uraniun235]

Uh, after cutting the shift strength of the Engineering department down to 3/4 of it's original (Three shifts spread over four) and then transferring a third of the department to Security (wtf?), wouldn't the number of people working a shift in Engineering be half what it originally was? (3/4 * 2/3 = 1/2) And given that Jellico's just run them all ragged with 48 hours of implementing his non-regulation ship modifications, as well as screwed with their shift rotation, does that strike anyone as being slightly unsafe?

Also, I don't think all of the crew are operations personnel... I'm pretty sure some of them are science staff only (i.e. they stay in the lab all day).

[Rogue 9]

Uh, after cutting the shift strength of the Engineering department down to 3/4 of it's original (Three shifts spread over four) and then transferring a third of the department to Security (wtf?), wouldn't the number of people working a shift in Engineering be half what it originally was? (3/4 * 2/3 = 1/2) And given that Jellico's just run them all ragged with 48 hours of implementing his non-regulation, as well as screwed with their shift rotation, does that strike anyone as being slightly unsafe?

Also, I don't think all of the crew are operations personnel... I'm pretty sure some of them are science staff only (i.e. they stay in the lab all day).

That certainly strikes me as unsafe. I didn't like him much. He enacted military discipline, but he did it in the most dangerous way he could fine to do it in. It seemed like he was changing stuff just for the sake of changing it. Flexing his muscles.

[Joe Momma]

That could be argued. She is a ship's counsilor. Maybe she has learned over the years that not wearing a uniform makes it easier for the crew to open up to her.

Yeah, the crew can really relax while they're staring at her cleavage, fantasizing about bending her over a photon torpedo...

This isn't a strict either/or. Troi could still dress in less formal clothing during private sessions (insert joke here) and still wear a uniform while acting as an officer on the bridge. Of course, even then I'd suggest that said informal wear be something other than a tight, revealing outfit. Any counseling professionals out there feel free to correct me, but I'm not sure that dressing in a way that emphasizes sexuality is the ideal for meeting with patients.

I did think that was a positive change, personally. If Troi's acting in her official capacity as a member of the ship's bridge crew, she should be attired appropriately. It seems like she started taking those responsibilities more seriously after Jellico's orders. Didn't she finally take the bridge commander's test sometime after that?

-- Joe Momma

[Stofsk]

...I didn't like him much. He enacted military discipline, but he did it in the most dangerous way he could fine to do it in. It seemed like he was changing stuff just for the sake of changing it. Flexing his muscles.

I don't think we're meant to like him at all, and it shows in the way he was written. He's the outsider who comes in and disturbs the "happy family" we've known for x years. Not only that but he's a hardass, relieves Riker of command and makes some questionable tactical decisions.

And all while demonstrating military competence. Of course we're not meant to like him, Starfleet's not a military (that's their line, mind you - I know better) therefore his heavy-handedness is sure to be irksome.

[MrAnderson]

...I didn't like him much. He enacted military discipline, but he did it in the most dangerous way he could fine to do it in. It seemed like he was changing stuff just for the sake of changing it. Flexing his muscles.

I don't think we're meant to like him at all, and it shows in the way he was written. He's the outsider who comes in and disturbs the "happy family" we've known for x years. Not only that but he's a hardass, relieves Riker of command and makes some questionable tactical decisions.

And all while demonstrating military competence. Of course we're not meant to like him, Starfleet's not a military (that's their line, mind you - I know better) therefore his heavy-handedness is sure to be irksome.

I fail to see this military competence. Basically he came in and ran a plan that only worked due to Riker and Geordi character shields.

[Stofsk]

I fail to see this military competence. Basically he came in and ran a plan that only worked due to Riker and Geordi character shields.

You mean the plan which he assigned the people best-suited to make it work? Geez, that doesn't speak of competence.

Yes, there are problems with the plan in question, I don't deny that - and they have been analysed in the previous pages. A lot of things could have gone wrong - but they didn't, Jellico got lucky. However wacky the reasons for his plan may have been, it was nevertheless carried out adequately. He assigned the right people to the job and they got it done, not in a spectacular fashion, but a competent one.

[MrAnderson]

I fail to see this military competence. Basically he came in and ran a plan that only worked due to Riker and Geordi character shields.

You mean the plan which he assigned the people best-suited to make it work? Geez, that doesn't speak of competence.

Yes, there are problems with the plan in question, I don't deny that - and they have been analysed in the previous pages. A lot of things could have gone wrong - but they didn't, Jellico got lucky. However wacky the reasons for his plan may have been, it was nevertheless carried out adequately. He assigned the right people to the job and they got it done, not in a spectacular fashion, but a competent one.

First you say he is a competent commander THEN you say he got lucky. So which one is it? If your going to wni through luck then you might as well man the shuttle with two redshirts and a chimpanzee.

[Darth Wong]

I fail to see this military competence. Basically he came in and ran a plan that only worked due to Riker and Geordi character shields.

You mean the plan which he assigned the people best-suited to make it work? Geez, that doesn't speak of competence.

The plan in which he believed that it would take extraordinary skill to navigate with a fucking half-kilometre margin of error, so he had no choice but to send an officer with whom he had serious disciplinary issues, and then accompany him with the ship's chief engineer, who would otherwise be quite useful in ... main engineering and whose only function on the shuttle was to release the mines and read the sensors? Even if we disregard the various errors in judgement involved in the formulation of his plan in the first place (starting with his "Lone Ranger" intrusion into Cardassian territory with the entire Enterprise rather than a long-range shuttle), his personnel decision was highly questionable in its own right.

Yes, there are problems with the plan in question, I don't deny that - and they have been analysed in the previous pages. A lot of things could have gone wrong - but they didn't, Jellico got lucky. However wacky the reasons for his plan may have been, it was nevertheless carried out adequately. He assigned the right people to the job and they got it done, not in a spectacular fashion, but a competent one.

No, he came up with a half-assed plan with utterly abysmal risk management and somehow got lucky. This is like saying that a guy must be a competent commander if he foolishly orders his men to walk through a minefield and they miraculously avoid stepping on the mines.

As I said before, it's nice that the guy has a military style and bearing, but his actual decision-making was highly suspect. There is certainly no evidence for the widespread claims of his tactical superiority or his ability to make the ship and crew more efficient.

[Publius]

First you say he is a competent commander THEN you say he got lucky. So which one is it? If your going to wni through luck then you might as well man the shuttle with two redshirts and a chimpanzee.

Dear sir, you speak as though competence and luck are mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite is the case; see, for example, Gaius Iulius Caesar, whose luck was proverbial even in his own day.

In CAPT Jellico's case, as Mr. Wong has pointed out, he did not exercise due caution in planning his operation and did expose ship and ship's company to considerable danger which could have been avoided through further preparation and planning. He could just as easily have been defeated ignominiously; nevertheless he applied Friedrich der Große's maxim on audacity, and effectively defeated the Cardassians without fighting (in a somewhat more haphazard and riskier version of Mr. Wong's proposed Imperial strategy to take Deep Space NINE in the First Battle of Bajor). In this case, fortune favoured the bold.

It should be noted that the plan's flaws could very easily be due to inexperience on CAPT Jellico's part. Starfleet does not consider itself a military organisation, and according to CDR Riker, combat skills are "a minor province in the make-up of a starship captain" (ref. "Peak Performance"). What combat experience CAPT Jellico does have may well have been acquired on the fly, and as a result his clumsily planned operation may be viewed as a self-taught tactician's efforts (considering the poor safety standards of Starfleet in general, this may well explain why he did not take satisfactory precautionary measures). He is, after all, a product of the same Starfleet that produced CAPT Picard and CDR Riker.

PUBLIUS

[Lonestar]

That certainly strikes me as unsafe. I didn't like him much. He enacted military discipline, but he did it in the most dangerous way he could fine to do it in. It seemed like he was changing stuff just for the sake of changing it. Flexing his muscles.

It isn't unsafe! Speaking as a trueblue sailor, I can think of many times we've had schedules jerked around while underway. Are we annoyed? Depends on which way it goes. Does it affect our performance? Not really. We've had more than a few duty-shifts lately, and we're still going to get a "Battle E".

That said, One thing I've always found strange about the show is how the ship is more often Underway than in port, which strikes me as ludricous.

[Lord Poe]

Even if that's the case, it takes time to make those kinds of adjustments and settle into them, and it's not a good idea to disrupt the operation of a ship with a major change in operating procedures immediately prior to a crisis situation.

But we have to assume he didn't do it simply to DO it. This must have worked for him successfully on other ships. If he was just some nut intent on putting upon the crew just because that's the way he likes it, Riker could have called him on it, captain or not. Riker did so to the fake Picard in "Allegiance", when he perceived a threat to the ship and crew. Apparently, no such threat existed here.

MrAnderson has thrown up some clay pidgeons for you to shoot, but the point remains that while everyone appreciates Jellico's military bearing and conduct, his judgement and tactical abilities are nevertheless highly questionable.

Ok, I can agree with that. BTW, every single time I've had a new boss come in, they'd change everything, procedures, paperwork, etc. to the way THEY want it, and then piss and moan when it took time for the 300 workers under them to conform to the new order!

[Tsyroc]

It isn't unsafe! Speaking as a trueblue sailor, I can think of many times we've had schedules jerked around while underway. Are we annoyed? Depends on which way it goes. Does it affect our performance? Not really. We've had more than a few duty-shifts lately, and we're still going to get a "Battle E".

We had our schedules changed a lot too. I've worked a lot of very shitty rotations and a few decent ones.

That said, One thing I've always found strange about the show is how the ship is more often Underway than in port, which strikes me as ludricous.

That's probably one of their technological "improvements" over 20-21st century ships.

Personally, the two deployments I made we qualified for beer days at least a couple of times on both of them. So being away from port isn't that odd if you don't need to go in to refuel or restock. Razinfrazin' nuclear power and underway replentishment.

I have a feeling being underway for long periods on the TOS Enterprise would have been a lot more like being undeway for long periods in any current Navy than being underway for long periods on the Ent-D. They seemed to really have designed that one to be able to take people a long way from home for very long periods without a whole of of support. I think that was part of the idea behind the families being onboard and the holodecks. It's too bad they never made it seem like they were really that far away from the Federation. TOS seemed like they were on their own much more.

[Uraniun235]

It isn't unsafe! Speaking as a trueblue sailor, I can think of many times we've had schedules jerked around while underway. Are we annoyed? Depends on which way it goes. Does it affect our performance? Not really. We've had more than a few duty-shifts lately, and we're still going to get a "Battle E".

That said, One thing I've always found strange about the show is how the ship is more often Underway than in port, which strikes me as ludricous.

He didn't just screw with the schedule. That in and of itself I would not claim to be unsafe. What I don't like is that in combination with that, he effectively halved the number of people on any given shift in Engineering, immediately after "utilizing the entire Engineering department" for two days "around the clock" to get his modifications done.

Ludicrous? I'm not so sure, given the inadequate fleet strength of Starfleet as is.

[Stormbringer]

It isn't unsafe! Speaking as a trueblue sailor, I can think of many times we've had schedules jerked around while underway. Are we annoyed? Depends on which way it goes. Does it affect our performance? Not really. We've had more than a few duty-shifts lately, and we're still going to get a "Battle E".

That said, One thing I've always found strange about the show is how the ship is more often Underway than in port, which strikes me as ludricous.

He didn't just screw with the schedule. That in and of itself I would not claim to be unsafe. What I don't like is that in combination with that, he effectively halved the number of people on any given shift in Engineering, immediately after "utilizing the entire Engineering department" for two days "around the clock" to get his modifications done.

Ludicrous? I'm not so sure, given the inadequate fleet strength of Starfleet as is.

And what makes you think that the full staff in engineering necesarily was necessary? It's entirely possible that there were redundancies among the crew that were not necessary to the good operation of the ship while not at alert.

[MrAnderson]

It isn't unsafe! Speaking as a trueblue sailor, I can think of many times we've had schedules jerked around while underway. Are we annoyed? Depends on which way it goes. Does it affect our performance? Not really. We've had more than a few duty-shifts lately, and we're still going to get a "Battle E".

That said, One thing I've always found strange about the show is how the ship is more often Underway than in port, which strikes me as ludricous.

He didn't just screw with the schedule. That in and of itself I would not claim to be unsafe. What I don't like is that in combination with that, he effectively halved the number of people on any given shift in Engineering, immediately after "utilizing the entire Engineering department" for two days "around the clock" to get his modifications done.

Ludicrous? I'm not so sure, given the inadequate fleet strength of Starfleet as is.

And what makes you think that the full staff in engineering necesarily was necessary? It's entirely possible that there were redundancies among the crew that were not necessary to the good operation of the ship while not at alert.

Name me an episode where you see anyone from Engineering sitting in the corner fingering their asses for lack of anything better to do? Every time you see them they are doing something. So your question about if they are all needed or not has no basis at all. That crew was there for every episode we go into engineering. It is not a great leap in logic to deduce that the number of them there is because that is how many that are needed.

[Lord Poe]

Name me an episode where you see anyone from Engineering sitting in the corner fingering their asses for lack of anything better to do? Every time you see them they are doing something. So your question about if they are all needed or not has no basis at all. That crew was there for every episode we go into engineering. It is not a great leap in logic to deduce that the number of them there is because that is how many that are needed.

"Q Who" featured someone walking around engineering bothering Geordie and spilling hot chocolate all over the place.

Most of the others that aren't sitting walk around and act like they're taking readings. OOOh....really need those guys. The consoles can't report to a main panel if something is amiss, I guess.

[Durandal]

Name me an episode where you see anyone from Engineering sitting in the corner fingering their asses for lack of anything better to do? Every time you see them they are doing something. So your question about if they are all needed or not has no basis at all. That crew was there for every episode we go into engineering. It is not a great leap in logic to deduce that the number of them there is because that is how many that are needed.

You're unfamiliar with the concept of making it appear as if you're doing work, but not really doing anything at all? It's called "bullshitting.," and you'd expect it to be common on a Federation starship, where no one receives monetary compensation for their work.

[Darth Wong]

Well, let's put it this way: cutting the staff of a department in half is not likely to increase its capabilities, is it?