SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Crayz9000]

The Wargs aren't armoured for the exact same reason that horses are only lightly armoured in the warfare. Carring around the fully armoured humaniod is taxing enough. adding compareative amounts of armour to the warg would reduce it's endurance, speed, and really annoy it.

I was more thinking along the lines of at least a bit of armor for the critical areas, like maybe a helmet of sorts for the warg's head... but whatever, I'm not running the Orcs in this scenario

[Coyote]

We may end up having to post "our version" with the fort at Deep Helm, and "their version" with the fort at Isen. I'm sure their version has some significant chages anyway, they'd probably want one of their own in charge (especially since they have more reps). The fact that they seem to be less able to deal with the situation seems to be unimportant...

We have body armor provided, it said so in the first post, as well as uniforms. I'd presume it would be something like PASGT (Kevlar; Personal Armor System Ground Troops). We also have all the 7.62, 9mm, .40 and 12-ga. we can eat, so a 7.62 NATO seems to be the way to go. I'd recommend either the SLR or the Galil ARM, the Kalashnikov-style action of the Galil puts me in that direction.

Still, personall, I'd bring specialized personal firearms and ammo for them, when it runs out I'll just deal with it. My CAR-15 and AKMS are folding-stock and good for scout missions and close-in work, plus I'm good with both of them. My Mossberg 590 is a 12-ga., and since the types of rounds we have available are unspecified, I'd say that a significant portion of them must be slugs or sabot, which makes them nicely effective. Even the sho ill be nice againt airborne targets...

Is it agreed, by the way, that one of our primary missions will be to train, guide, and teach locals rather than egage in force-on-force clashes? If we need to fight in any final battles, we can among local allies but until then try to stay out of the way and keep ourselves alive.

Bear in mind that in the 18 years we'll be there, there will surely be a few deaths among us-- accidents, minor clashes with orcs, perhaps some frag incidents in the case of RSA... but we may well also see some hook-ups and births as well, and after 16-18 years these kids, raised on the base and under our influences, will essentially be as good as 21st-century citizens. Just without the internet and Pokemon.

The initial scenario implied a fully equipped chem lab and med bay, and a machine shop. I think that Rob is right, in the long run the HumVees (which are transport, not combat, versions, remember) will be useful only for special deployments and not daily taxis. We'll have to get used to horses (Goddammit. I hate the infernal beasts, each one has a mind of its own and it is typically inadequate) although I will prefer Infantry action as much as possible...

And the reason I prefer a Zep to a balloon is so we have control over its movement and more payload capacity. And the Duchess's idea of barrage balloons is good, too.

[Sea Skimmer]

PASGT will provide pretty limited protection; most edged weapons will cut right through Kevlar. Only the plates inside would actually protect you. We might actually be better off procuring some mail or other armor from the local population.

[Sea Skimmer]

We may end up having to post "our version" with the fort at Deep Helm, and "their version" with the fort at Isen. I'm sure their version has some significant chages anyway, they'd probably want one of their own in charge (especially since they have more reps). The fact that they seem to be less able to deal with the situation seems to be unimportant...

That makes our job pretty simple, if we only have on axis of attack to worry about and will have the orc army coming to us and heavy guns which are in the scenario to keep our base safe, not directly aid us in our objectives.

I'd say somewhere along the edge of Fangorn forest would be best. That places us close to resources, but out of the lands of Rohan or the Elves. We however are still close to both the Fellowships path, Isenguard, the above powers and to Gondor.

[Nova Andromeda]

--Even though I won't be going on your little trip, (since my only "combat training" is hunting, paintball, and various war games), I am having trouble figuring out what the plan is currently. 28 pgs. X 25 post = lots of reading.

My guess is this:

1. Fortify base, establish contacts with major powers, begin scientific study of Middle Earth physics, and secure resources. (first few months)
2. Destroy the One Ring, take Saurumon out, train/equip allies with modern tech., continue to study Middle Earth physics if necessary. (first year or two)
3. Anhilate remaining evil powers in Middle Earth. (remaining time)

-The details seem to be under discussion.
-I don't think it has been mentioned yet. I think people should be given suicide pills just in case. If I were captured or going to be I would want one to avoid torture and to keep criticle info. out of enemy hands.
-It would be beneficial for observers if someone created a detailed plan somewhere and updated it as plans changed.

[Ren]

That makes our job pretty simple, if we only have on axis of attack to worry about and will have the orc army coming to us and heavy guns which are in the scenario to keep our base safe, not directly aid us in our objectives.

If you act early enough there is no attacking orc army and the heavy guns are irrellevent. You need not to just respond to the events in the book but activly try to stop Sauron/Saruman.

I'd say somewhere along the edge of Fangorn forest would be best. That places us close to resources, but out of the lands of Rohan or the Elves. We however are still close to both the Fellowships path, Isenguard, the above powers and to Gondor.

Closeness is not neccesarly the best choice here, if the base is placed into this area where the attention of Saruman and maybe Sauron is focused then it will be discovered very quickly and you may be in big trouble. Additionaly it may be hard to feed yourselves in this area and obtaining metals for manufacturing may be difficult. In my opinion the Lonely Mountian is a much better choice: It has two major manufacturing centers already, has a food supply, is out of the everyones focus, already has several armies built up, the dwarves are rich, the dwarves are known for traveling across the land so no one will think anything of a few convoys crossing the mountains and best of all the dwarves seem relativly uncorruptable and hate Sauron.

[Enforcer Talen]

what is sauron's power at this point, when we begin? can we stroll into mordor, drop the ring into the fire, and work on playing kings for the next few decades?

and, does anyone think it absurd how fast this thread has grown?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Those defensive figures for medieval armour are bullocks. Even the best 15th century plate - And nobody in the Middle Earth has armour that good - could be penetrated by arrow or arquebus fire at distances less than 15-30 yards (quality of manufacture caused massive variations, and there was of course a difference between arrows and guns).

Furthermore, the SCA doesn't use traditional techniques. Their armour is assembled out of a mishmash of modern materials made to look old-fashioned. In this case I suspect they were using ball against some armour made out of industrial steel, and perhaps weren't even accurately keeping track of the range at which the penetrations were made. The SCA is good fun but they're not good on historical accuracy and I wouldn't trust them for a science experiment either.

I'll drag up more facts on this shortly.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I apologize to any SCAers I might have trodded upon; I just get a mite defensive about weaponry capabilities here. There's a reason that armour went out of fashion after the flintlock came into common usage on European battlefields, except to protect cuirassiers.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually it went out of Fashion BEFORE the flint lock became available.

The Swiss Pike killed it.

[Knife]

Wish I'd seen this thread earlier.

A few thoughts, everyone seems to be addicted to the idea of assualt rifles. May I suggest bolt action rifles like 3008 (this is hard since I am a machine gunner by trade). My reasons for bringing them up are various, primarily the bolt action rifles are accurate at long range and we need to play on our range ability in any engagment we encounter. M16's and their counter parts are designed for a medium range engagment and we need to start picking these guy's off at a thousand meters or so instead of 500 meters or so.

Secondly, the bolt action are basic and simple so the problems with wear and tear as well as maintence and even replacement to the weapon are feasable. The ability of the group to cast a new bolt as opposed to the inner workings of modern assualt weapons would be a bennifit.

Thirdly, accurate single fire from the rifle at long ranges would be as damaging to a charging enemy as a sustained fire from assualt weapons at a closer range, and the single fire would chew alot less rounds than trigger happy people with the ability to go tri-burst or auto. The rounds could be reloaded, though with less and less effectiveness due to lower grade power and round made locally by us.

Next the pistol, since the pistol is a "oh shit" weapon, I don't see why it matters what model everyone gets. Might as well make everyone happy.

I do agree with the multiple knives. A good combat knife and a good multipurpose knife such as a leatherman or other is always a good idea.

General stategy. Being few on number (if not on firepower) we need to intervene at a point where it will count the most. Having figured that out, then we establish the base of operations. Defense of the base utilizing the terrain to bottle up and channel the enemy into choke points and putting our Heavy MG on PDF missions on those spots could repel anything that ME can throw at us. Indirect suppost would also break up any charge on our position. Holding our base would be of little concern.

Splitting us up on the work load would also be an exellent idea. General weapons training for all and all of the close ranged weapons would be given to the support staff such as shotguns and pistols. If the suppost staff has to fire weapons, it will because the enemy has breached our defenses and they will be in close range of the support staff. Military peronel will have the rifles and LMG and will be trained to use them effectively.

As for a goverment for the SB&SD group, a concil of leaders of the support staff and the leaders of the military branch would surfice. We are there to stop Suaron from taking over and when done, to go home. We are not there to take over so a long term democratic goverment is not necessary.

Tactics, well we need to use what we have to its best ability. RANGE. All attacks should be used at maxinum range and use the terrain to our best advantage. Total guerrilla tactics to enclude choosing our battles and to make sure we can prep the battlefield before hand. Simple barracades and boobytraps will break up any orc charge and hamper calvery. Hit and run tactics coupled with point destruction raids (I like the one proposed on the dam at Isenguard) can disrupt the enemy from deploying against the free people of the relm.

Also, using our people as force multipliers is a good idea but only after a good diplomatic relation is set up between us and those we intend to help.

Oh, and just for the record:

0331 machinegunner. 5 time expert in the M16 and two time expert on the M9 Berreta (had a bad day so there is a sharp shooter in there). 5 time expert on the M60. Have serious training on the M2, MK 19, M203, M249, M240G, and various explosives. Served as a weapons and tactics instructor for the Marine Corps and taught Land Nav. and Patroling as well as a host of various other topics. Mount and basic first aide to name a few.

I gotta say, this thread is very appealing.

[SirNitram]

I still back Helm's Deep as the location of choice for the base:

1) It's proven. It can hold off thousands of Orcs. With our superior weaponry, it becomes an even more effective stronghold against many our number. Hell, the damn thing is practically built, begging for high tech weaponry to sit on the ramparts and cut through attackers.

2) Flat land. The area in front of it, is flat. The surrounding area, is flat. Great for recon. No trees blocking field of view. Will we have to travel for resources? Yes, but we can travel.

3) Access to other groups. We have immediate access to Rohan, and the caves to the mountains suggest access to the Dwarves. Accessing the Elves will take a little longer, but is entirely possible.

4) Strategic position. From Helm's Deep, we can quickly move to the territories of Gondor and Rohan for assistance.

Finally, the last dating I checked said that while Frodo received the ring in 3001, he did not move out until sixteen years later. Is this so?(Understandable, given how deeply Gandalf had to research.)

[Ren]

I still back Helm's Deep as the location of choice for the base:

1) It's proven. It can hold off thousands of Orcs. With our superior weaponry, it becomes an even more effective stronghold against many our number. Hell, the damn thing is practically built, begging for high tech weaponry to sit on the ramparts and cut through attackers.

This is true but the Lonely Mountian is also a very strong and proven defensive position.

2) Flat land. The area in front of it, is flat. The surrounding area, is flat. Great for recon. No trees blocking field of view. Will we have to travel for resources? Yes, but we can travel.

This is also true, but the shipping of resources will be a major headache if large scale manufacturing is to be done.
Additionaly if large scale manufacturing is to be done the expertise and tools of the Dwarves and the Dalesmen would be very valuble.

3) Access to other groups. We have immediate access to Rohan, and the caves to the mountains suggest access to the Dwarves. Accessing the Elves will take a little longer, but is entirely possible.

Gimili's reaction to those caves shows that there are no Dwarves in them.

4) Strategic position. From Helm's Deep, we can quickly move to the territories of Gondor and Rohan for assistance.

If stationed at the lonely mountian we are in the middle of the armies of Dain and Dale, which could stand up to the army's of Mordor by themselves and if for some weird reason we would need assistance then the army of the Wood elves is very close by.

Finally, the last dating I checked said that while Frodo received the ring in 3001, he did not move out until sixteen years later. Is this so?(Understandable, given how deeply Gandalf had to research.)

This is probably correct, Frodo recieved the ring on his 33rd birthday and left on his 49th or 50th (I don't remember which) so 16 years is reasonable.

[Typhonis 1]

this brings up an interesting question.Has there been ny mmention to what happens at Lonely Mountain during th war of the ring? other than what Gimli tells?

[Ren]

this brings up an interesting question.Has there been ny mmention to what happens at Lonely Mountain during th war of the ring? other than what Gimli tells?

It's been a little while since I read up on this so I may not be very correct, but I belive Sauron actually sent another army to attack them and Dain and the king of the Dale were killed in the battle and their forces retreated into the mountian were they were seiged.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, if we go with a bolt-action, why not the Canadian NATO-chambered Lee Enfield and then just train everyone to shoot the mad minute? I actually do agree with Knife that this may be the best way to go. I've been a bit uneasy about anything more complex, though it depends on our support infrastructure.

[weemadando]

Can I point out the foolishness of establishing our longterm base at Helms Deep. Its great as a place of last resort, but for us, in the longterm it could well be suicide. We need somewhere with multiple access and escape routes.

I suggested Weathertop.

Is there anything like a big fuckoff Weathertop that could fit our base?

[Coyote]

There are a lot of bolt-action advantages but also the usual disadvantages: rate of fire against a massed enemy, and magazine capacity/reload time. Untrained people, unused to firearms in general (as many here are) will have a much easier time with a magazine to slide in...

OTOH, the fire discipline forced by bolt-action is nice, we'll not be piddling away ammo so quickly with panic bursts. If we want to go with bolt-action, then I have to say that the Mauser KAR-98K, the bolt-action that every other bolt-action tries to copy, is our best choice. Rugged, reliable, accurate, easy to train on and carry...

That would mean altering the scenario somewhat-- our "primary load" would be the 8mm Mauser, unless we want "rechambered" '98s... Still, I'm dubious. Mabe some folks will go with this route but when orcs start coming over the barricades, even with half of them killed, we'll need to sling lead fast. I'd still take my AK, CAR-15, and Mossbrg as primaries...

[Darth Wong]

That would mean altering the scenario somewhat-- our "primary load" would be the 8mm Mauser, unless we want "rechambered" '98s... Still, I'm dubious. Mabe some folks will go with this route but when orcs start coming over the barricades, even with half of them killed, we'll need to sling lead fast. I'd still take my AK, CAR-15, and Mossbrg as primaries...

Actually, the scenario calls for .50cal MG nests around the base, with virtually unlimited (albeit non-portable) ammo. No Orcs are coming over those barricades.

[Ren]

Can I point out the foolishness of establishing our longterm base at Helms Deep. Its great as a place of last resort, but for us, in the longterm it could well be suicide. We need somewhere with multiple access and escape routes.

I suggested Weathertop.

Is there anything like a big fuckoff Weathertop that could fit our base?

The problem with weathertop is that it is in the middle of nowhere, while this may be an advantage in the secrecy issue it means that things like raw materials for manufacturing and food supplies would be issues, additionaly there are no major military and industrial powers in the region to help us.

[Ren]

That would mean altering the scenario somewhat-- our "primary load" would be the 8mm Mauser, unless we want "rechambered" '98s... Still, I'm dubious. Mabe some folks will go with this route but when orcs start coming over the barricades, even with half of them killed, we'll need to sling lead fast. I'd still take my AK, CAR-15, and Mossbrg as primaries...

Actually, the scenario calls for .50cal MG nests around the base, with virtually unlimited (albeit non-portable) ammo. No Orcs are coming over those barricades.

Unless of course the witch-king can telekinetically break machine guns like he can swords and then your in trouble

[weemadando]

The problem with weathertop is that it is in the middle of nowhere, while this may be an advantage in the secrecy issue it means that things like raw materials for manufacturing and food supplies would be issues, additionaly there are no major military and industrial powers in the region to help us.

If we have 18 years, thats enough time to establish trade routes. If we have something to trade people will come to us.

A base near a river (but not on one) would be good. Having a hill or something similar to sit it on would be even better.

My point is that something LIKE weathertop would be great. Weathertop does have numerous disadvantages, but it would be amusing if the events in LotR went on as they did in the book when the FotR turn up at Weathertop and find a modern military base. Even more amusing when the Naz'ghul arrive and try and take it.

[Ren]

The problem with weathertop is that it is in the middle of nowhere, while this may be an advantage in the secrecy issue it means that things like raw materials for manufacturing and food supplies would be issues, additionaly there are no major military and industrial powers in the region to help us.

If we have 18 years, thats enough time to establish trade routes. If we have something to trade people will come to us.

A base near a river (but not on one) would be good. Having a hill or something similar to sit it on would be even better.

My point is that something LIKE weathertop would be great. Weathertop does have numerous disadvantages, but it would be amusing if the events in LotR went on as they did in the book when the FotR turn up at Weathertop and find a modern military base. Even more amusing when the Naz'ghul arrive and try and take it.

Consider then the Lonely Mountian which has all the advantages of Weathertop ( well not the amusement factor ) and none of the drawbacks. Additionally if for some reason the dwarves and Dalemen will have nothing to do with us we can always generate money by plucking it off of Smauges 'diamond waistcoat'.

[weemadando]

Possibly, though I was just looking through various maps of middle earth and thought of the following locations.

1 - A largish hill on the plains between the Greyflood River and Eryn Vorn. A minor tributory of the river would provide us with water, and we are central enough to not have to worry about distances for trade. We also get a strategic barrier between ourselves and Isengard.

2 - On the Lefnui River end of the Langstrad range. Gives us a decent location for trade with Gondor and Rohan, not to mention given us 2 easily defensible locations (mountain gap and river crossings) between Isengard and us.

3 - If we thought we could be really self-sufficient OR create a decent barge fleet for trade. Near the Iron Mountains on the river that feeds to the River Running.

[Keevan_Colton]

PASGT will provide pretty limited protection; most edged weapons will cut right through Kevlar. Only the plates inside would actually protect you. We might actually be better off procuring some mail or other armor from the local population.

As far as armour for protection against melee goes....

SCA armour drives me up the wall, too heavy to fight very effectively in (at least in any style that would keep you from getting your ass handed to you) and it weighs a ton compared to the protection it really offers, its vastly over engineered for the sake of SCA saftey regulations.

Mail armour....I'm willing to bet most of you dont much like the idea of trying to fight with most of your body weight hanging from your shoulders? Mail armour while lighter than full plate armours places all of this weight on the shoulders....

Kevlar is good against edged weapons....its naturally cut resistant (there are spectra/fibreglass weaves I've looked up that are far better) and if combined with padding and tough high impact plastic panels for use against thrusts and blunt impacts would be an excellent approach.

Think of it as a modern brigandine armour combining the enhanced strength and durability of modern materials with the light and manouverable nature of brigandine.

The training I have is mostly freestyle, gathering its influences from a broad mix of european, oriental and even a smidgeon of zulu fighting styles. Armour will not stop every blow, the real trick in melee combat is not to get hit....this can be aided by being able to move quickly and being skilled in single strike kills....throat and groin hits with a sharp blade are especially nasty.