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MKSheppard wrote: I wouldn't be so sanguine; explosives and propellants all decay over time ESPECIALLY in poor stowage conditions (hot and humid); there have been many fires in Army ammunition depots caused by decay products from ammunition.Not to mention, they become more sensitive to shocks as they decay. Better to just scrap the shells and use the steel to make new shells.

That's why we pull the explosive and fuse for long-term storage. All we store is the metal shell case. They're worth storing because when we need them we're going to need them in huge numbers and we can give them and their guns to second line formations while industry concentrates on modern stuff.

How many modern guns will TAKE french m1897 75s?! Or did Algeria corner the market on those older guns and equip an artillery regiment?

None; they're unique to the m1897 but there's a lot of those guns still around in out-of-the-way places. We've got data on artillery parks around the world here and its incredible what's still in storage. Also what's still active; 25 pounders are quite common, in the Kargil fighting a few years back, Indian and Pakistani 25 pounder batteries were exchanging shots.

I don't know if that's awesome or just absurd.

Anyone still using Lee-Enfields and Mosin-Nagants?

Darth Raptor wrote:My understanding of The Message (finally having read the SLAM thread) is that it's much more immutable than all that. Anyone who believed that strongly probably isn't alive anymore.

I am probably dense but what (or where) exactly is the SLAM thread?

Stuart wrote:That's why we pull the explosive and fuse for long-term storage. All we store is the metal shell case.

Isn't that expensive and time consuming to remove the explosives? A lot of countries don't bother with that step, dumping them in open air storage parks.

D.Turtle wrote:Here you go

Thanks

Illuminatus Primus wrote:They have billions of demons, and if they find some way to slave-draft some dead humans, they'll have billions more of rapid-healing troops. I mean, are we considering that Hell might surrender once there are major losses or an invasion?

If the billions of humans are used in a zerg rush of Earth, they are easily countered by pointing out, once they emerge from the portal, that they just escaped Hell. Loyalties would turn very quickly at that point.

MKSheppard wrote:

Stuart wrote:That's why we pull the explosive and fuse for long-term storage. All we store is the metal shell case.

Isn't that expensive and time consuming to remove the explosives? A lot of countries don't bother with that step, dumping them in open air storage parks.

If you're planning on storing them for a while, then you'd bother. Stick the filler back into new production rounds. If you're not planning on it, but they end up stored long term anyway, you're probably going to have your ammo dump go high order sooner or later.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Anyone still using Lee-Enfields and Mosin-Nagants?

Indeed. Indian and Pakistani second-line units use locally-made Lee-Enfields - in fact the Indians made a new version of the SMLE No.3 chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO and with a 12 round magazine that's reckoned to be the best of the Lee Enfield family. Not long ago I came across a picture of naxalite terrorists operating in central India and, when I enlarged it, they were carrying kar '98k rifles (how they got them is a good question; the naxalites are marxists so its possible they got them from the USSR.

Mozzy-nags I'm not quite so sure about. The most common ones handed out were the M44 carbine and the M91/59, a carbine conversion made in the early 1960s. Mozzy-Nags turned up in Africa a lot and in the early days of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Even today in that part of the world they're available at very low price (US$3 - 4 each). I don't think any front line units use them these days but I bet they're around in second-line and paramilitary units.

Unlike semi-autos and selective fire, bolt-action rifles don't wear out. Looked after, they last virtually forever. If you can get a Martini-Henry from the 1870s, it shoots perfectly well enough if you can afford the ammunition.

Junghalli wrote: If you think what's happened so far would kill the Abrahamic religions you greatly underestimate human powers of rationalization and creative interpretation of the evidence.

"Obviously, this must be some kind of test!"

Some are going to go with John Chris's idea: this is a sort of "trial by fire" God puts humanity through when He thinks we're ready to stand on our own. Others are going to say God is testing us to see if we keep our faith even when He seems to have abandoned us, like what He did to Job but on a much grander scale. This sort of thing is easily spun.

First of all, you're ignoring that most genuinely religious people laid down and died, the ones perfectly loyal to God. Why wouldn't the rest find it easy to believe that the Evil Old Testament God had deceived them and obscured and corrupted the true teachings of Jesus, which is basically the core thesis of Gnosticism? That would reconcile their prior belief in Jesus with what had happened perfectly without having to abandon religion. Therefore, save those who outright become atheist, agnostic, or buddhist/polytheistic, the only real option is Gnosticism. To pretend that "god is just testing us" is the height of delusion when the Message had the psychosomatic power behind it to make people lay down and die.

Incidentally, another victory for rationalism is our treatment of our colonies. Without it, Portuguese/Spanish style forced conversion would have happened in places like India, too, leaving them also ready for the Message. But because the 18th century was a rational one, the men who colonized were only interested in money, left the local religions be, and thereby helped prevent the spread of the Judeo-Christian religion. I bet on most worlds that never happens; without rationalism, the main goal of conquest is forced conversion. Notice that even Muslims didn't always try to forcibly convert India--Babur Khan is a good example of a quite rational Muslim leader.

Starglider wrote:snip

No, I imagine he just has more experience with bullets and razor wire than you.[/quote]

You were right, you don't know about swords. Razor wire cut a demon to the bone simply from handling it, a sword will do this as well. I have some inkling of what a sword will do, and have seen video's of what they will do, and as I have a combat capable sword, I assure you I am most careful in handling it and when I use it for this very reason: If I am negligent in its handling I will be in hospital, it will cut to the bone. Of course it is quite possible that a demon has parts of its body which are genetically designed to be tougher than other parts as we see in other species, after all the demon's are not human.

Stuart Mackey wrote: You were right, you don't know about swords. Razor wire cut a demon to the bone simply from handling it, a sword will do this as well. I have some inkling of what a sword will do, and have seen video's of what they will do, and as I have a combat capable sword, I assure you I am most careful in handling it and when I use it for this very reason: If I am negligent in its handling I will be in hospital, it will cut to the bone. Of course it is quite possible that a demon has parts of its body which are genetically designed to be tougher than other parts as we see in other species, after all the demon's are not human.

Remember, bronze age army. They're immune to bronze swords, not steel ones. Big difference.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Stuart Mackey wrote: You were right, you don't know about swords. Razor wire cut a demon to the bone simply from handling it, a sword will do this as well. I have some inkling of what a sword will do, and have seen video's of what they will do, and as I have a combat capable sword, I assure you I am most careful in handling it and when I use it for this very reason: If I am negligent in its handling I will be in hospital, it will cut to the bone. Of course it is quite possible that a demon has parts of its body which are genetically designed to be tougher than other parts as we see in other species, after all the demon's are not human.

Remember, bronze age army. They're immune to bronze swords, not steel ones. Big difference.

Ahh, yes, you are quite correct.

Great story! I can't wait to see what happens when we close the noose on Abigor's forces.

I've got an idea for where another hellmouth could be opened: Clarksdale, Mississippi, at the intersection of highways 61 and 49--the "Crossroads" where the old Delta Blues singers supposedly sold their souls to the Devil for musical talent, fame, and fortune.

I personally believe Hwy 61 is cursed--when I lived in Vicksburg for a few years I was always hearing about/seeing a bad wreck on that highway, just about every day. One night I was headed for work in the south bound lane when some dumbass came right at me! And this was was on a four-lane stretch separated by a median. Fortunately I was quick enough to get out of the way.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: First of all, you're ignoring that most genuinely religious people laid down and died, the ones perfectly loyal to God.

True, but I imagine there are probably a lot of people who aren't loyal enough to just accept hideous torment forever but who'd still try to cling to whatever they believe. I suspect even most fanatics, and certainly lots of moderately religious people, would try to creatively reinterpret what's going on. Between the alternatives of eternal torture or admitting what you believed was a lie it's an easy way out.

Why wouldn't the rest find it easy to believe that the Evil Old Testament God had deceived them and obscured and corrupted the true teachings of Jesus, which is basically the core thesis of Gnosticism?

Because saying "it must be a test!" is easy. Accepting that God is actually evil is a much more radical departure from what most religious people believe; I'm going to bet most of them are going to take the option that lets them keep the idea of a good God. You have to remember that people generally don't pick religious beliefs rationally because religion is supremely irrational, they pick what "feels best" to them. Plus, how many people are actually familiar with Gnosticism? Some dusty Roman-era heresy doesn't really have much grass-roots traction.

Therefore, save those who outright become atheist, agnostic, or buddhist/polytheistic, the only real option is Gnosticism. To pretend that "god is just testing us" is the height of delusion

Um, "the height of delusion"? Remember that we're talking about religion here. Delusion is its stock and trade!

Seriously, people can convince themselves of just about anything with religion. Just look at creationists. Convincing themselves that the Message is some sort of trial, with the evidence so far presented, is a piece of cake by comparison. Heck, we only know for sure it's not true because we have access to the internal monologue of a high-level demon lord.

You have to wonder about calling God evil. Say you are an entity that is so advanced, so alien in the way it perceives and does things that we are like insects to it. Say it decides after some time that its grown bored of the ant farm it was looking over and just decides to give it to another entity and just walk away. Is that evil? If it truly perceives us as insects and its not just some uber human with delusions of grandeur type entity then is it evil? In a similar vein are we evil for destroying the ant hill in our backyard?

Then maybe it's not evil because human morality can't apply to it, but nonetheless it is still destructive. Like a natural disaster - a hurricane, a tornado, or a plague of locusts, or even Godzilla.

If we could prevent hurricanes or tornadoes with nuclear weapons, then we would. If we could stop plagues of locusts with pesticides, then we would - and we do. If we could stop Godzilla or Cloverfields with massive military retaliation, then yeah.

Now let's see if God can take as much nukes as a hurricane.

Or... if God's a hurricane, then our militaries are our levees. And they will not break.

EDIT:

Either way, it's all moot if we're basing this on the Bible. We ate the apple, so we're on the same level as them. If we were as naive as Adam and Eve, then we couldn't hope to comprehend god and shit. But we can. So fuck them.

Stravo wrote:You have to wonder about calling God evil. Say you are an entity that is so advanced, so alien in the way it perceives and does things that we are like insects to it. Say it decides after some time that its grown bored of the ant farm it was looking over and just decides to give it to another entity and just walk away. Is that evil? If it truly perceives us as insects and its not just some uber human with delusions of grandeur type entity then is it evil? In a similar vein are we evil for destroying the ant hill in our backyard?

The question then is human consciousness worth preservering. If god is so advance that we can't understand his thought process and he finds us simpletons, maybe it's true for him, while we can't say the same for each other.

Stravo wrote:You have to wonder about calling God evil. Say you are an entity that is so advanced, so alien in the way it perceives and does things that we are like insects to it. Say it decides after some time that its grown bored of the ant farm it was looking over and just decides to give it to another entity and just walk away. Is that evil? If it truly perceives us as insects and its not just some uber human with delusions of grandeur type entity then is it evil? In a similar vein are we evil for destroying the ant hill in our backyard?

That's a very good comparison; my general approach is that Satan/Yahweh look on humans as cattle, raw feedstock to provide things that they need. They're no more interested in our opinions or capabilities than we are of those held by the cattle in a stockyard. The only real difference between Satan and Yahweh is that between a breeders of Thanksgiving turkeys, one of whom keeps his birds in battery cages, the other believes in free-range farming. Then, the free-range farmer gets bored with running a turkey farm, decides to invest in something else and sells his farm to the battery-farmer. Only, this time the turkeys have guns - Beware, the link is an animated song. It's work-safe but probably not work-tactful especially if you're in an open-plan office

What an incredibly disconcerting metaphor

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Remember, bronze age army. They're immune to bronze swords, not steel ones. Big difference.

I remember hearing that some bronze Gallic swords had to be straightened against the ground after being swung. Making something proof against a weapon like that really isn't all that hard.

Stravo wrote:You have to wonder about calling God evil.

No, I don't.

Say you are an entity that is so advanced, so alien in the way it perceives and does things that we are like insects to it.

This is a false premise. You note that you're much more complex/intelligent than an insect, you postulate an intelligence the same factor more complex/intelligent than yourself, then you try and say moral worth is equivalent to the complexity of the problems you can solve or the absolute amount of mind-stuff you have. If you truly bought into this premise you'd be saying that IQ 70 people should be the slaves of IQ 130 people because the later are inherently superior. It doesn't apply in this story anyway (because the demons really aren't that superior, they just have the high ground), but even for a genuine superintelligence the comparison simply doesn't work.

If you had to pick a single feature to attach moral worth to, it would be self-awareness. This is a structural feature of an intelligent entity, not a performance or size metric. Invertebrates don't have it at all. Non-primates only have it to a very limited degree. Humans have it to a vastly higher degree than any other animal on earth; it's a key part of our bundle of unique cognitive capabilities that let us do things utterly unprecedented in the history of the planet. Humans don't have complete self-awareness of course, and I'm certainly open to the possibility that there is a 'deeper, more intense, more meaningful mode of consciousness' (sounds trite I know - nontechnical words don't really convey this, though Iain Bank's stuff on Culture Minds comes close at times) that has more inherent moral worth than human experience. But I really don't think it goes much higher. The 'individual moral worth curve' is a sigmoid ('s-curve') when plotted against self-awareness, with long trailing regions on each side; humans are fairly near the top of moral worth scale while only being moderately high up the self-awareness scale. The key point is that we're well past the critical inflection area; chimps and dolphins for example are probably slap bang in the middle of this.

Of course no decent systematised morality is going to be based on a single variable like that, even a deep structural one, but that's the important part (questions of volition, which basically mean goal system structure, are a close second). All the most important classes of rights should be absolute, not relative - that's pretty much an axiom for constructing the system in the first place, exceptions only come in for 'would be nice' rights that require relative standards of competence to be exercised safely (and even those are effectively absolute in a society where indefinite personal growth is freely accessible to all).

The universe doesn't define any absolute morality. The closest it comes to that is what strategies can be proven to works via game theory (in reasonably generalised circumstances like the prisoner's dilemma) and what doesn't - incidentally the 'Golden Rule' (treat your inferiors as you wish to be treated by your superiors) comes out of that and the demons are already uneasy about the implications of violating it. Ultimately, after you've eliminated morality that's invalid due to fuzziness of specification or internal inconsistency, there's just moral propositions that you agree with and moral propositions that you don't. But frankly any statement that 'God isn't evil because it's ok for him to treat us like ants' is one I reject out of hand and that I would hope any sane intelligent human would too. The practical consequence of that is exactly what is happening here; the moral course of action, as I and hopefully most secular humans see it, is to invade these 'higher planes' and dethrone their tyranical rulers.

Well the thing is God is on the same level as Hell and the demons, and they communicate with them. So the "god is too advanced so he crushes us" doesn't necessarily work in this case.

I don't agree that it's a false premise, only that it doesn't apply in this case. It's not necessarily a question of intelligence rather than a question of perceptions. For example, as I think you know Starglider, one idea for interstellar travel is mind uploading then slowing down the thought process so everything takes eons and human beings perceive things in discrete packets of... millions, billions of years. Then puny biological beings would truly be insects, unable to communicate with those on the higher plane. But that is really beyond the scope of the thread and doesn't apply to God because... God can talk to us in this story.

brianeyci wrote:I don't agree that it's a false premise, only that it doesn't apply in this case. It's not necessarily a question of intelligence rather than a question of perceptions.

I will grant that if the beings causing harm can't percieve the harm they're doing and can't reasonably be expected to have inferred the fact that they're causing harm, then they are absolved of guilt. That does not necessarily mean that we shouldn't blow them up, depending on exactly how much harm they're doing and whether it's practical for us to initiate communication. Clearly if they are made aware of the problem and continue causing harm, said beings deserve everything they get.

But this is utterly irrelevant to anything resembling typical human religions, which describe gods supposedly much more capable of perceiving and understanding what's going on on Earth than humans, not less.

TANKER!

Tanker, watching in the night
Ready to begin the fight
With your flaming fists of steel
Pushing forward, set to kill

Let the tyrant shrink and cower
Seeing your most noble power
Rush into his land of fear.

"Sabot' till the way is clear.
"HEAT' the ridgeline, spray the hollow.
Punch the way that others follow.

Track where others would not dare!
Boldly rumble anywhere!

Never do you tread alone:
Human soul with flesh and bone
That break and bleed make up the light
Which shines within your metal might.

Let your own light be your Savior
Whose defeat of evil gave your
Life new meaning, strength new goal.

Help Him make His World whole!

- Chaplain (CPT) Patrick J. Dolan Fort Monmouth, N.J.