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pecker wrote:Which they fail to use at every other convenient opportunity

Maybe there's more to it than that just going "Go Go Gadget Invisibility!"

His Divine Shadow wrote:

pecker wrote:Which they fail to use at every other convenient opportunity

Maybe there's more to it than that just going "Go Go Gadget Invisibility!"

LOL

Maybe so

Mind you, Jedi are not supposed to over-use the Force, and by the time of AOTC where they could have used it more, they'd lost much of their control over it.

Darth Wong wrote:Mind you, Jedi are not supposed to over-use the Force, and by the time of AOTC where they could have used it more, they'd lost much of their control over it.

Well, in the Arena it would have been near-useless anyway.

Darth Wong wrote:

Durandal wrote:NTSC DVD's aren't stored at 29.97FPS; they are stored at 23.976FPS. The DVD player is what telecines them.

Actually, if you rip the MPEG file off the CD and examine it directly, it's interlaced and telecined and plays at 29.97 fps. There is no way to restore the original 23.976 fps presentation without inverse telecining, hence the wide availability of inverse-telecining tools in DVD ripping software.

This is true; if you try and play an MPEG-2 directly, you'll often see it run at 29.97 fps, but it has to do with a flag in the MPEG-2 header which tells it to run at the framerate because most people have televisions that display content at 29.97 fps.

However, if you run through the video stream frame-by-frame, you'll see that it's clearly not interlaced. With most DVD's, if you demux the MPEG-2 stream into its component audio and video streams, you'll notice that the only way to get a match for the lengths of the two streams (assuming there's no audio offset) is to play the video at 23.976 fps. In fact, a whole world of synch issues if you try backing up your DVD with DivX/XviD/3ivx is caused because some encoding houses fuck up the MPEG-2 encode by inserting a flag which tells the DVD player to interlace the otherwise progressive video. Since some MPEG-2 decoders just read the file frame-by-frame, the audio gets out of synch because the video is not being interlaced when it should be. VirtualDub, however, reads the file exactly the way a DVD player would, so you rarely get synch issues unless you've got a seriously fucked up DVD.

That is why there are progressive-scan DVD players, which can hook into a HDTV and play the stream straight from the disc without telecining it for a normal NTSC television.

Actually, progressive-scan players are forced to deal with the same telecined MPEG file. This is why there's two kinds of progressive-scan: "fake" progressive-scan (the cheaper ones that simply de-interlace every frame and interpolate missing data) and "true" progressive-scan (the more expensive ones that perform inverse-telecine on the fly).

Most encoding houses simply encode the original theatrical footage and maintain the same framerate. Only incompetent and/or stupid encoders encode film footage and telecine it up for storage on the DVD. The only time you'll see interlaced content in the MPEG-2 video stream is on a TV show DVD set, like Star Trek or something. The progressive scan players are, no doubt, equipped to handle some dumbshit encoding house's decision to put interlaced film footage on a DVD, but generally they just run through and play the file as-is.

Darth Servo wrote:I wonder how the Trekkies will react.

Probably are indifferent. Most rational trekkies understand that a Jedi would be a serious problem if one were to board a starship, this ability only reinforces that belief.

Though I ask you, is this ability lost among Jedi? Has it ever been demonstrated in any Jedi post Endor?

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Darth Servo wrote:I wonder how the Trekkies will react.

Probably are indifferent. Most rational trekkies understand that a Jedi would be a serious problem if one were to board a starship, this ability only reinforces that belief.

Though I ask you, is this ability lost among Jedi? Has it ever been demonstrated in any Jedi post Endor?

It depends on what you mean. Corran Horn has the ability to alter other people's minds to prevent them from detecting him, even when they are walking next to him. If you believe that that is what is going on in this scene (ie. that this technique can also fool the camera), then they have retained the ability. I believe that Jedi Master Skywalker has the ability to hide himself from detection, when he tries to, however it is unclear whether he is using this power or something even more exotic. I'm not sure what relevence the question has, however. Since the ability is canonically usable by a Padawan learner, it would be astonishing if it were lost so easily.

Darth Wong wrote: Time: 0.08 seconds. It's hard to see because they're translucent in Force-speed, but judging by Obi-Wan's saber, he's covered roughly 1 metre. To accelerate from standing start to cover 1 metre in 0.04 seconds requires acceleration of 1250 m/s^2, or more than one hundred fucking G's at a minimum. Even if the location of his sabre is misleading and he only covered 1/2 metre in that time, he would still need to accelerate at more than 60 G's.
Time: 0.12 seconds. Obi-Wan has covered another metre, which indicates that he's topped out at around 20-30 m/s (45-68 mph). That's fucking automobile highway speed, pal. And we're not just talking about moving his arm or bending his hips; we're talking about accelerating his entire body.

This reminds me of one of my grips about Obi that attributes some of the fault of Qui's death to him. If he can move this fast, Why the fuck didn't he Force run through the fields to reach Qui and finnish the duel, instead of jogging up.

Damn you Obi, you made us loose my favorite Jedi.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:This reminds me of one of my grips about Obi that attributes some of the fault of Qui's death to him. If he can move this fast, Why the fuck didn't he Force run through the fields to reach Qui and finnish the duel, instead of jogging up.

That is something that had always bothered me aswell since the first time I saw TPM way back when. I guess we could rationalise it by saying at the time he was too close to Maul, who was undoubtabley 'dampening' the Force?

I believe an answer is in the jedi council archive.

Really? This is at starwars.com I believe yes? I will start an emidiate search!

Found it!

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 01211.html

Fan wrote:At the end of The Phantom Menace, why didn't Obi-Wan use his super-speed to run past the energy gates that kept him from Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul?

Sansweet wrote:Physical feats and acts of strength aren't always 100 percent repeatable. You may also ask why, if your favorite sports team defeated a rival once, do they not defeat them every time? Physical and mental exhaustion play a role in the use of Jedi powers. These may have hampered Obi-Wan's abilities during the duel.

Speculative and yet kinda answers the question, yes?

Look at it this way. In the Fed ship they were relatively fresh? However they had already been battling Maul. Obi Wan had taken the brunt of the attack a time or two. Not to mention the plummeted a few stories down to a reactor walkway. Now, after he manages to grab ahold of the ledge, he force jumps back up to the walkway Maul and Qui Gon were on. He had to be exhausted to some degree. Also, think about this. You have energy gates opening and closing. Two force users viciously battling it out with lightsabres. A bottomless shaft at the end of the walkway. Do you run through your house to the cookie jar when you want a snack? It can be hard enough to go full speed and then suddenly try to stop before hitting the wall, much less, run through tires, jump over hurtles and hope not to get caught in a cieling fan that fell into the floor.

I think that answer by the council is just a cop-out. There's been several times in Wars movies that a hero is winded, low on engery, or seemingly defeated and suddenly, this desperate situation allows them to dip down into the Force for a little more.

Qui-Gon is far older than Obi-Wan, and though Qui might have had more control over the Force, he still has the physical limitaitons oh his age. Obi-Wan is filled with more youthful vigor. He might have taken more hits, but he should be able to recover faster.

It just shows you how much better of an apprentice Anakin was to Obi-Wan than Obi-Wan was to Qui. Anakin saved Obi's ass after been owned by Sith lightning. Which is one of the examples I was refering to earlier.

Obi-Wan fucked up, plain and simple.

Further to my point, Obi-Wan, as an apprentice, is wreckless. He wastes too much energy on wasteful moves like lightsaber spinning, flips, etc. Look at the first few moves of the Duel of Fates scene. What's the first thing Obi-Wan does? He flips over Maul, which is risky. Maul could have impaled him just by thrusting his blade back into Obi's landing area. It's only because of Qui-Gon's placement that he doesn't. Maul would be leaving himself open for a decisive strike from the Jedi Master. And look how Maul responds to Obi's attack. He shrugs it off without even LOOKING.

Maul is definetly far better trained in the Force than Obi. He is completely aware of his surroundings through almost all the fight, and is able to use them to his advantage. He has the door open with only the slightest glance and a gesture of Force power by throwing the debris at the control.

Watch the fight scene closely, and see how many mistakes Obi makes, and how much waste he uses. First the flip, then, after the fight is brought into the next area after the door, he AGAIN twirls his saber! Do we see Qui doing this? Nope. Because Qui is focused on striking at Maul. Obi wastes a perfectly good moment to try and attack to make himself look cool. THEN HE IMMEDIATELY TWIRLS AGAIN! Two missed oppertunities, and another wasteful movement. He barely makes up for this by his feint, which sets up Qui to launch an attack.

Someone brought up the fact that Obi might have been winded from the fall. The fall is his fault as well. He goes for a high strike on Maul, and maul swats his blade down and pins it. Instead of v-stepping away from the vunerable position he's in, knowing that his blade is pinned and cannot be used to block, he stays in the same spot and just takes a kick from Maul. More recklessness.

Maul and Qui are far more concentrated on the battle here that Obi is. Obi's recklessness is nearly his undoing, and becomes Qui's.

And the "Obi is winded from his fall" is more bs, because Obi misses his FIRST oppertunity to catch up as he jogs towards the shields. He then has plenty of moments to rest. What does Qui do? He goes into a mediation and recharges some lost energy. Obi-Wan just stands there, impatiently...and after waiting....fails to take the second oppertunity to catch up with a Force run.

Just seems that when it comes to big battles, Obi-Wan is a choke artist. At least until Ep3 comes out.

Oh yes. I forgot to add...He twirls twice more while running through the generators. Perhaps he should have saved the energy and concentration of this moved and used it for a short Force-aided sprint. But he didn't. Because he's a fuck-up.

Master of Ossus wrote:Corran Horn has the ability to alter other people's minds to prevent them from detecting him, even when they are walking next to him. If you believe that that is what is going on in this scene (ie. that this technique can also fool the camera), then they have retained the ability. I believe that Jedi Master Skywalker has the ability to hide himself from detection, when he tries to, however it is unclear whether he is using this power or something even more exotic.

Isn't there something in the Zahn books about Luke and/or Mara hiding themselves from cameras with the force? I've got this vague memory of "he used to force to manipulate the electronics of the sensors to hide [her/his/their] passing". Or maybe it's Crimson Empire.

I'm not sure what relevence the question has, however. Since the ability is canonically usable by a Padawan learner, it would be astonishing if it were lost so easily.

Some people have a knack for certain things, eg Coran horn was absorbing energy - something his line has a knack for - even though he didn't know how he did it (eg, rescuing one of the Jedi students from the boiling rock pool in I Jedi). This ability could simply be something OWK has a knack for (similar to the two Anakin's knack for using the force on technology - something even experienced Jedi sometime struggle to do)

Plus, OWK is hardly a typical padawan learner - he leaps straight to Jedi Master a couple of weeks later.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:Oh yes. I forgot to add...He twirls twice more while running through the generators. Perhaps he should have saved the energy and concentration of this moved and used it for a short Force-aided sprint. But he didn't. Because he's a fuck-up.

Or you could stop and think and realize he's PISSED because his beloved Mentor just got run through. Have you heard of a displacement activity? Being flooded with Dark Side power from being angry isn't the best time to immerse yourself in the Force.

I haven't inspected his combat moves well enough to comment on Lord Xerxes' criticisms; he may be right. However, I would say that they may be able to accelerate rapidly but not stop rapidly (notice how they slow down to a more normal speed to make the turn at the junction after their Force Run on the Tradefed command ship). If that's the case, then it might be extremely dangerous to pull a Force Run in a hazardous environment like that laser-trap area, particularly when there's a bottomless pit at the end of the corridor.

SirNitram wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:Oh yes. I forgot to add...He twirls twice more while running through the generators. Perhaps he should have saved the energy and concentration of this moved and used it for a short Force-aided sprint. But he didn't. Because he's a fuck-up.

Or you could stop and think and realize he's PISSED because his beloved Mentor just got run through. Have you heard of a displacement activity? Being flooded with Dark Side power from being angry isn't the best time to immerse yourself in the Force.

The moment I'm talking about is before Qui-Gon's death. Please watch the scene again.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:Oh yes. I forgot to add...He twirls twice more while running through the generators. Perhaps he should have saved the energy and concentration of this moved and used it for a short Force-aided sprint. But he didn't. Because he's a fuck-up.

Or you could stop and think and realize he's PISSED because his beloved Mentor just got run through. Have you heard of a displacement activity? Being flooded with Dark Side power from being angry isn't the best time to immerse yourself in the Force.

The moment I'm talking about is before Qui-Gon's death. Please watch the scene again.

Oh, you mean how a guy still being trained is not able to kick the ass of a very fast Sith Lord? Or how they kept General Kenobi's odd little twirls?

I'm hoping that Mike and others here will take a look back at the scene I'm refering to and look for the things I've mentioned. I'm looking foward to see whether people agree with my ascertations. Some of this can be accounted to the fact that he is only a mere Padawan, but if you compared Obi as a Padawan, and Anakin as a Padawan, it seems Anakin's performance rate is quite higher. I'm not saying Anakin is perfect, because is his far from. He has a lot more of the same reckless qualities. But his tract record seems a bit better. perhaps because he is the Chosen One.

SirNitram wrote:

Lord_Xerxes wrote:

SirNitram wrote: Or you could stop and think and realize he's PISSED because his beloved Mentor just got run through. Have you heard of a displacement activity? Being flooded with Dark Side power from being angry isn't the best time to immerse yourself in the Force.

The moment I'm talking about is before Qui-Gon's death. Please watch the scene again.

Oh, you mean how a guy still being trained is not able to kick the ass of a very fast Sith Lord? Or how they kept General Kenobi's odd little twirls?

What I mean is, if he spent less time withhis "odd little twirls" to make himself look flashy, he could concentrate more on the fight at hand. Those twirls move his blade out of position and could leave him open. And, it's an huge fault for him. I believe Anakin also shows the same trait a few times in ATOC. However, Anakin managed to save Obi-Wan's ass when it was on the line.

The point i was making is, the gates opened twice for Obi. And twice he failed to use a Force sprint through. Mike's point seems well justified. But we have to consider, how well does Obi know the inner layout of the Palace? Maybe he didn't know about the pit. I'm just pissed that he didn't haul ass to get back in the fight.

It seems Obi learned his lesson from this though, judging by AOTC dialogue. Because he wants to take Dooku with Anakin, and attack at the same time. Of course, Anakin doesn't listen. And look where that got him. Like Master, like Padawan?

Anakin's skills are largely just Force power applied in spades. He's not a great saber artist, but he does see things before they happen, and of course, he has great reach and strength. His style is alright if your opponent is aiming high on your body(But a legshot would fuck him up), and it's very anger-driven.

Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is more calm most of the time. The only time he loses his temper is when Maul skewers Jinn, which, oddly enough, allows him to win. As for Obi-wan's fighting, it is just what I would expect from a Padawan Learner near the end of apprenticeship: He can easily hold his ground against normal opponents, but against a Sith Lord.. Something not even theorized to exist still.. He got himself owned. His style is that of deflections, after all, not parrying.

Lord_Xerxes wrote: What I mean is, if he spent less time withhis "odd little twirls" to make himself look flashy, he could concentrate more on the fight at hand. Those twirls move his blade out of position and could leave him open. And, it's an huge fault for him. I believe Anakin also shows the same trait a few times in ATOC. However, Anakin managed to save Obi-Wan's ass when it was on the line.

Anakin's little habits are different, but yes, they are there. The reason Anakin succeeds more is because he's got raw power out the ass and around the bend. This little habit isn't unjustified, either: Watch ANH, and you'll see him doing little nervous twirls.

Also, from a scene where he engages two droids at once(And the spider-thing is coming up behind him) the twirls are a way to deflect blaster bolts. This, as I mentioned in the other post, seems to be the basis of his style. This makes sense, given that no one thought a Sith existed anymore, so why would they need to duel sabers?

Obi-Wans failings are because he is still in training, not ready for a battle with a Sith, and, ultimately, because he isn't ready to take on the Dark Side.

The point i was making is, the gates opened twice for Obi. And twice he failed to use a Force sprint through. Mike's point seems well justified. But we have to consider, how well does Obi know the inner layout of the Palace? Maybe he didn't know about the pit. I'm just pissed that he didn't haul ass to get back in the fight.

You are welcome to your emotions and opinions, but don't state them as fact. Obi-Wan simply was not ready for a situation like the one that unfolded on Naboo.

It seems Obi learned his lesson from this though, judging by AOTC dialogue. Because he wants to take Dooku with Anakin, and attack at the same time. Of course, Anakin doesn't listen. And look where that got him. Like Master, like Padawan?

Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke are all reckless. Yet in the end, they accomplish more than Yoda, because that recklessness makes them able to act in large moves to confront the source.