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brianeyci wrote:Ah, but that was a Q situation =D. Were the "vicious animal things" vaporized or just killed and disappeared? I remember that episode, the Napoleanic troops with phaser muskets?

They were vaped.

Jason L. Miles wrote:

brianeyci wrote:Ah, but that was a Q situation =D. Were the "vicious animal things" vaporized or just killed and disappeared? I remember that episode, the Napoleanic troops with phaser muskets?

They were vaped.

Interesting. However given that the animal things were a creation of Q, they may have been made less stable than normal humanoids and been vulnerable to phaser fire. Are there any situations without an omnipotent entity that results in vaporizations of targets a fair distance away?

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

Jason L. Miles wrote:

brianeyci wrote:Ah, but that was a Q situation =D. Were the "vicious animal things" vaporized or just killed and disappeared? I remember that episode, the Napoleanic troops with phaser muskets?

They were vaped.

Interesting. However given that the animal things were a creation of Q, they may have been made less stable than normal humanoids and been vulnerable to phaser fire. Are there any situations without an omnipotent entity that results in vaporizations of targets a fair distance away?

How about you present evidence that there was anything unusual about the situation instead?
The were vaped with a phaser set to vape. That that was done at a greater range than you would like is not my problem. Provide proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

Batman wrote:The were vaped with a phaser set to vape. That that was done at a greater range than you would like is not my problem. Provide proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

The aliens were wearing Napoleanic era costumes and fired phaser shots out of their muskets. That is strange enough to me. The whole Enterprise crew was teleported to a neutral location and their ship rendered helpless. That is strange to me. Q appears and disappears whenever he wants, and turns into people, and is impervious to any attempt to harm him. That is strange to me. Anything involving Q is strange, hence my reluctance to accept anything with Q around.

They were not killed with a phaser set to vape. We don't know what setting the phaser was at. If they were following Federation guidelines, then the phasers were set to stun. They would not try vaporizing first, without trying stun.

Very well. Q seems to "will" into existence whatever he wants. If his will was a little shaky, or if he wanted to create a reasonable facilime of a living creature without getting into the details, then his creation would be less than perfect. For example I am sure I could go back and find errors with the costumes and props Q uses, supposedly from the Napoleanic era. So Q's costumes were "willed" into existence, and if Q was not focusing his willpower into whether or not an alien would vaporize or fall flat when a phaser hit, then he would create imperfect aliens.

<edit>Whops, nitpick, wasn't the whole enterprise crew, just a few officers =D </edit>

Brian

Ah, yes. A lot of speculation that doesn't even apply to the question asked.
Proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

Batman wrote:Proof that anything was unusual in the makeup of the aliens.

Very well. You cannot assume that there was nothing unusual in the makeup of the aliens as well, since they were created by an omnipotent being who can violate the physical laws of the universe with impunity.

What about the stun setting argument? They would not have used vaporize right off the bat if they were following Federation guideliens. Therefore, there is plausability that the aliens were vaporized by a stun setting.

Brian

Fact: Phaser fires.
Fact: Target is vaped.

Sane person conclusion: Phaser was set to vape.
Brianeyci conclusion: I don't like phasers being able to vape at that distance so I'll just blithely assume it's set to stun and that Q made the aliens in a way that allowed them to be vaped by that.


EDITed to fix typo

Batman wrote:Fact: Phaser fires.
Fact: Target is vaped.

Sane person conclusion: Phaser was set to vape.
Brianeyci conclusion: I don't like phasers being able to vape at that distance so I'll just blithely assume it's set to stun and that Q made the aliens in a way that allowed them to be vaped by that.


EDITed to fix typo

Fact : Phaser fires
Fact : Target is vaped
Exenuating circumstances : Q was involved.

Assume it was set to stun? Federation Captains from Archer to Picard regularly order the troops to set phasers to stun, to the point that "setting to stun" must be a standard Federation practise. As well, lethality must be ordered, such as "set phasers to kill" for Federation officers to use the kill setting. You are assuming that all of this precedent goes out the window.

<edit> Actually I just checked the script and found this,

Script wrote: The PHASER SOUND precedes an EXPLOSION OF DUST AND DIRT
at a point where Riker was aiming the phaser. It
causes a hole at least the size of one caused by a
howitzer shell.

Definitely something that can cause a hole the size of a howitzer shell is set to lethal, not to stun. I concede the point.

</edit>


Brian

brianeyci wrote:You are assuming that all of this precedent goes out the window.
Brian

I am assuming that a phaser that vapes its target is set to vape.
Unless you can show that it was actually set to stun instead of just whining 'But that's what they usually do'?



EDITed to fix typo. Again.

Batman wrote:I am assuming that a phaser that vapes its target is set to vape. Unless you can show that it was actually set to stun instead of just whining 'But that's what they usually do'?

Point accepted, the phaser was set to highest setting. If it blew a "howitzer sized hole" in the ground it was definitely set to be lethal, not stun.

Silence and I's theory is interesting, that vaporizations happen by accident. Have you looked over it?

Brian

Howizer-sized hole? WRF?

Batman wrote:Howizer-sized hole? WRF?

From the script. I believe on screen, the smoke obscures so much that you can't see anything.

<edit> As an addendum, you can download the scripts from here. The howitzer comment is in Episode 111. </edit>

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

Batman wrote:Howizer-sized hole? WRF?

From the script. I believe on screen, the smoke obscures so much that you can't see anything.

Ah. That ought to have been point conceeded, then.
As for Silence's theory, it's internally consistent and I can find no flaes in it, but as he himself states, it's not supported by the facts. Interesting speculation (and well done) but nothing more.

Batman wrote:Ah. That ought to have been point conceeded, then. As for Silence's theory, it's internally consistent and I can find no flaes in it, but as he himself states, it's not supported by the facts. Interesting speculation (and well done) but nothing more.

The only thing we can conclude then, is that vaporization takes more energy than kill, which is already obvious. We don't have any evidence that vaporization takes obscenely more amounts of energy over kill. For example Batman, if kill used 30% more energy, and that gave 30% more shots, it would be concievable that using kill would be good, even with a soldier's mentality for a "sure shot". We know that Federation phasers require "power packs" and that in a real gunfight, Federation phasers are likely to run out of power in between gunfights requiring a powerpack change,

Script DS9 Siege of AR-558 wrote: 77A ANGLE ON REESE

approaching Ezri and Vargas, carrying his phaser
rifle and a satchel. He holds the satchel open for
Ezri.

REESE
Extra power packs.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "Siege of AR-558" - REV. 10/13/98 - ACT FOUR 45A.

77A CONTINUED:

Ezri reaches in to take out a pair of phaser rifle
power packs.

So conserving ammunition is the reason to use kill over vaporize. There is no real way to quantify how much ammunition is saved. I suggest that even a 30% increase in ammunition is advantageous enough especially if the kill setting usually kills.

Brian

brianeyci wrote:

The Silence and I wrote:I have offered an idea to explain why a vaporize shot may take "significantly" more energy in a previous post. If you haven't looked at it please do, as I am curious to see what you think about it.

It is a good idea. Is your proposal that vaporizing someone is a touch-touch affair, based on how much someone ate the last time out to lunch? I don't remember an instance where somoene has set a phaser to "vaporize", but only to the highest setting. If kill and vaporize were the same thing, and the reason why vaporize happened was because of some sort of fluke arrangement of particles/amount of particles in the target, then vaporization is an unintended side effect of kill. Nobody ever sets a phaser to "vaporize", only to the highest setting.

You misunderstand me. My proposal was that phasorize is very, very different from kill. The lunch part was simply to offer my reasoning for why I don't think the two settings are similar.
I tried to say that it is likely slight differences in material composition don't turn a kill shot into a "vaporize" shot. I speculated therefore that "vaporize" uses head and shoulders more energy than kill.

That logic is not unassailiable, but neither does it hurt my speculation.
Make sense now, I hope?

<snip>

Very well. However, if we want to be consistent with your theory, then the "phasorize" or vaporization happens due to some sort of fluke, and not because of phaser settings. Therefore the reason why we don't see phasers vaporize so much is because the arrangement of the target has to be just right to vaporize someone.

Hopefully addressed above.

However, how does this coincide with the numerous instances we have seen people blow holes in caves? If vaporization was based on the amount/arrangement of the particles in a target, then phasers should not consistently blow open convenient escape routes for Picard and Co. Maybe kill and vaporize are not the same setting, but there is a different setting only used in unique situations such as blowing open rock faces that guarantees a vaporization.

Again, see above.

There is also something else to consider. Vaporizations have only happened at extremely close range. This is not saying much given that most of the firefights are at close range anyway, but I think it is safe to say that vaporizations have only happened at ranged of 2 meters or less. I would even go so far as saying vaporizations happen at ranges of 1 meter or less. If the phaser's "nadion containment field" (fuck starting to sound like Geordi) grows exponentially weaker at longer distances, then perhaps vaporization is impossible at ranges over 2 meters.

Brian

I would say you are reaching a lot more than I am. Absense of ranged shots is not evidence there can be no ranged shots.

Then of course there is "Hide and Q" which I just watched the other day; the "animal things" were "vaporized" by Riker at much greater than 2 meter range--indeed, the range was greater than the majority of phaser battles in trek, whatever the setting.

Batman wrote:

brianeyci wrote:

Batman wrote:Howizer-sized hole? WRF?

From the script. I believe on screen, the smoke obscures so much that you can't see anything.

Ah. That ought to have been point conceeded, then.
As for Silence's theory, it's internally consistent and I can find no flaes in it, but as he himself states, it's not supported by the facts. Interesting speculation (and well done) but nothing more.

I find so much more pleasure in speculating; I have a great deal more to say about phasers; specifically the weird stuff about particles and subspace fields and crazy things. But it is not ready for posting yet, I need to make sure it is in fact internally consistent.

As for the howitzer sized hole...

This impressive phaser blast Resulted in this hole-thing

According to this site a 76 mm howitzer shell will in fact leave a crater slightly less wide than the one Worf is standing by, although perhaps deeper. The shell will also result in far greater shrapnel, 10-12 meters ahead and 15-20 meters to the sides. But the script is essentially correct; the hole is howitzer sized. It is not as dangerous as a howitzer, but that is not contested.
So, score one for early TNG phasers!

I am kind of curious to know what happened to the rock as most of it was gone. Was the remaining rock vaporized or turned into flying shrapnel. If it was vaporized it would explain why there are very few if any shrapnel wounds from near misses.

I am more than a little curious how the rim of the crater was raised like that.

I am kind of curious to know what happened to the rock as most of it was gone. Was the remaining rock vaporized or turned into flying shrapnel. If it was vaporized it would explain why there are very few if any shrapnel wounds from near misses.

I believe the rock was primarily vaporized; shrapnel has never been shown to be a large part of phaser side-effects.

You should be careful of using the word "vapourized" when it obviously doesn't apply. That word has a very specific scientific meaning which doesn't apply to magical disappearing acts.

Are you referring to me, or someone else?
I forgot to put vaporize in quotes last post, but I usually either write phasorize or "vaporize" to describe what clearly is something else.

I used vaped, but I think I like The Silence and I's phasorize. I'll change my documentation.

Regarding the survey: I've almost finished season 2 of DS9, and it seems to be more of the same.

Because DS9 is much more culturally diverse, I am tracking more variables.

Here's a list of the things I'm tracking:

Starfleet Phaser Reactions
Bajoran Phaser Reactions
Klingon Disrupter Reactions
Romulan Disrupter Reactions
Cardassian Disrupter Reactions
Dominion Hand Weapon Reactions
Misc. Hand Weapon Reactions
Accuracy

Because of the format of my notes (I am using an excel spreadsheet) and the way I'm crunching the numbers, it would be difficult to post all of the tables. Accuracy should be easy.

Once I finish all 7 seasons I will combine the SF phaser numbers with the TNG ones.

Anyone who wants a copy of the notes for TNG please post here. Also, if anyone who has web space would be good enough to host the excel files, I would be immensely greatful.

Jason L. Miles wrote:I used vaped, but I think I like The Silence and I's phasorize. I'll change my documentation.

Regarding the survey: I've almost finished season 2 of DS9, and it seems to be more of the same.

Because DS9 is much more culturally diverse, I am tracking more variables.

Here's a list of the things I'm tracking:

Starfleet Phaser Reactions
Bajoran Phaser Reactions
Klingon Disrupter Reactions
Romulan Disrupter Reactions
Cardassian Disrupter Reactions
Dominion Hand Weapon Reactions
Misc. Hand Weapon Reactions
Accuracy

Because of the format of my notes (I am using an excel spreadsheet) and the way I'm crunching the numbers, it would be difficult to post all of the tables. Accuracy should be easy.

Once I finish all 7 seasons I will combine the SF phaser numbers with the TNG ones.

Anyone who wants a copy of the notes for TNG please post here. Also, if anyone who has web space would be good enough to host the excel files, I would be immensely greatful.

You are awesome Jason. Are you also noting exenuating circumstances in your weapons analysis? For example, using a broken phaser, Lore shooting to scare Beverly, etc. If someone is deliberately trying to miss or is using a handicapped weapon, it shouldn't be included in the general statistics -- or if the weapon is a strange variant used for only one episode, like the modified phaser rifles used to sweep for a changeling in DS9.

What about the "accuracy" category. How are you determining distance? Are you factoring in who is using the weapon -- Data should never miss, while Riker should always miss given him missing a Reman at point blank range in Nemesis. Most people should be somewhere in between.

I have 50 megs of webspace host files. Its permanent as long as I don't flunk out of university. PM me =D.

Brian

brianeyci wrote:You are awesome Jason. Are you also noting exenuating circumstances in your weapons analysis? For example, using a broken phaser, Lore shooting to scare Beverly, etc. If someone is deliberately trying to miss or is using a handicapped weapon, it shouldn't be included in the general statistics -- or if the weapon is a strange variant used for only one episode, like the modified phaser rifles used to sweep for a changeling in DS9.

My episode by episode notes are in the format:
Ep#, Ep Name, chapter, time index, character firing, Hit, miss or unknown, target, weapon, setting, type (beam or pulse), reaction, notes.

Notes is where I put anything unusual about the event, or anything I might need to know later.

What about the "accuracy" category. How are you determining distance? Are you factoring in who is using the weapon -- Data should never miss, while Riker should always miss given him missing a Reman at point blank range in Nemesis. Most people should be somewhere in between.

My original plan was to have four range catagories: point-blank, short (up to about four meters, hard to judge, but for the most part, if both are on screen, it usually fits in here), long. The problem I am running into is that there are a great many shots where there is no indication if a hit occurs or not.

I may just end up putting together Hit/Miss/Unknown statistics.

I have a covering fire target as well, but it is really hard to determine if a shot is being used this way.

One thing I didn't do that might be interesting would be to correlate the director of the episode with the way the characters react to phasers. It might be interesting to see if individual directors do the same thing consistantly.

TNG Phaser Reaction Statistics Notes

Here are the notes from TNG.

I found some webspace I had forgotten about.

Lord Wong wrote: You should be careful of using the word "vapourized" when it obviously doesn't apply. That word has a very specific scientific meaning which doesn't apply to magical disappearing acts.

While you are absolutely correct, I think there has been an unstated understanding here that at least within the confines of this debate, 'vaporize' or 'vape' is used as shorthand for 'made to glow funnily and go away'.
I DO like phasorized, mind you.
EDITed because I forgot something important: Jason, you're AWESOME.