StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Adam Reynolds wrote:In the current continuity, Endor and Jakku were considered enough to militarily break the back of the Empire. Such low numbers needs an explanation, even if the majority of the crumbling is political rather than military(which I also subscribe to).

DisneyU is worst U. They basically took the EU, dumped it, and then mysteriously kept the worst parts, and none of the good.

MKSheppard wrote:

Adam Reynolds wrote:In the current continuity, Endor and Jakku were considered enough to militarily break the back of the Empire. Such low numbers needs an explanation, even if the majority of the crumbling is political rather than military(which I also subscribe to).

DisneyU is worst U. They basically took the EU, dumped it, and then mysteriously kept the worst parts, and none of the good.

They kept Dark Empire?

Galvatron wrote:They kept Dark Empire?

Worse.

What's Starkiller Base but the GALAXY GUN from Dark Empire II?

Or what we got in the opening Vong Invasion / NJO novel but flipped around to be edgy?

MKSheppard wrote:

Galvatron wrote:They kept Dark Empire?

Worse.

What's Starkiller Base but the GALAXY GUN from Dark Empire II?

Or what we got in the opening Vong Invasion / NJO novel but flipped around to be edgy?

Starkiller Base fires a solid projectile?

Galvatron wrote: Starkiller Base fires a solid projectile?

If only.

Galvatron wrote:Starkiller Base fires a solid projectile?

Long range FTL weapon that blows planets up? *cough* Galaxy Gun, I see You!

Exactly how many ships did the Empire lose at Jakku? And what happened there? If we don't know those specific answers, it's hard to say.

I can imagine an empire 'falling' after two decisive battles accompanied by a host of minor campaigns. Especially if Jakku is, say, the place where the new continuity's equivalent of Thrawn fell- the last man with a credible chance of reassembling the Imperial remnants into something that could dominate the galaxy.

Simon_Jester wrote:Especially if Jakku is, say, the place where the new continuity's equivalent of Thrawn fell- the last man with a credible chance of reassembling the Imperial remnants into something that could dominate the galaxy.

Impossible. There's no "It was so artistically done", but a random brutal battle.

Not exactly Thrawn, just someone who played the same astropolitical role as Thrawn: the warlord who really scared the New Republic for a while there before finally being put down.

Simon_Jester wrote:I can imagine an empire 'falling' after two decisive battles accompanied by a host of minor campaigns. Especially if Jakku is, say, the place where the new continuity's equivalent of Thrawn fell- the last man with a credible chance of reassembling the Imperial remnants into something that could dominate the galaxy.

The impression I get is that it was just another average Imperial Moff, who even survives. And it seems to end as a result of a peace treaty rather than a decisive military victory. Which nicely fits my original theory that the Empire has lost political inertia by the time of ROTJ. That actually is a rather nice outcome overall, that the galaxy more or less returns to a state of peace free from the tyranny of the Empire.

Though the Empire doesn't fall apart entirely as a result either. It seems to be something loosely akin to the peace treaty of the Hand of Thrawn dulogy taking place immediately after Endor rather than being delayed. Though the Empire also seems to have moved into the Unknown regions as well, with the rest of the Empire likely eventually morphing into the First Order.

As for the Dark Empire comment, Clone Wars already borrowed the idea of bringing back a formerly dead Sith with Darth Maul. And there is even speculation that Snoke is Plagueis(though I doubt it).

With respect to the new EU in general, it did already fix one bad thing from the old. The shuttle Tydreium was actually stolen twice in the old EU. Rather than decide that one version was canon, they decided that the same shuttle was stolen twice. The new version also has a vastly more plausible coverup. The star destroyer that the shuttle was stationed on was destroyed by the Alliance during the mission, neatly covering up its disappearance.

In general I suspect that the new EU will at least have the advantage of being tighter in terms of structure, with more oversight. Which is one reason why I suspect that Timothy Zahn will not return. He isn't enough of a team player to cooperate fully, given that he had a hard time working with other authors in the old EU.

Fair... but in my heart of hearts I can't and won't be decanonizing a lot of things.

In my gut, the old EU account of the fall of the Rebellion stands until there is a new EU detailed enough to replace it- even if the results aren't the same as portrayed in the part of the old EU 20-30 years down the line. Thrawn has not been proven not to exist, therefore he exists. And so help me, when I saw a dozen or so X-Wings show up on Takodana to bail out our heroes, my inner child yelled "It's the Rogues!" and still refuses to hear anything different.

What can I say, I'm a creature of sentiment in some ways.

I agree completely in that respect. I personally still consider Kell Tanier and Mara Jade canon in some sense, even though they actually aren't exactly. If Wraith Squadron is formed after Yavin instead of several years after Endor, as a means to fit into the middle of the current war narrative that is perfectly fine. As is moving up Mara's initial adventures to be in the immediate aftermath of Endor rather than a few years later. In terms of events, I in many ways prefer the vastly shorter war that we ended up with. It is nice that the heroes were just plain victorious rather than having another drawn out conflict.

Even if I end up renaming Mara Jade it still fits reasonably well, or if she ends up getting a slightly different background as something like a potentially Force sensitive bounty hunter the Emperor hired on the side or as an Inqusitor. Or whoever else Luke's theoretical wife becomes in the new EU. I am also fine with the changes to their children(presuming Rey is their daughter) as well as having Kylo Ren/Ben and Rey replace Jacen and Jaina(as twins are overdone). Though given that Rey has brown hair, that would lead to the assumption that Luke's wife in the current continuity does as well.

Thrawn is problematic in a sense, in that he doesn't seem like he would honestly fit the current Empire all that well. Especially as his original motive seemed tied to the Yuzhaan Vong, which I sincirely hope stays out of the new canon. Though something similar involving the threat of the First Order could still reasonably work, in that he was trying to insure that someone was able to stop them. Especially since the current Empire also retreated into the Unknown regions after Jakku. He could always exist and still be serving his people rather than the Empire.

On the flip side, I still consider Darth Maul to have died on Naboo, even though he played a major role in Clone Wars. At the same time, I also consider Ashoka canon, as her character really grew on you. So I guess you can say there is an element of doublethink.

The thing is, if you ever actually liked the EU, you almost had to do this anyway, as there is no other real way to accept the parts you enjoy and reject those you do not. I doubt anyone here has ever accepted the entirety of the EU. At least not in terms of what they actually enjoyed. It was always a cloudy window into the universe in any case. Even Clone Wars has this trait in my opinion.

Adam Reynolds wrote:Even if I end up renaming Mara Jade it still fits reasonably well, or if she ends up getting a slightly different background as something like a potentially Force sensitive bounty hunter the Emperor hired on the side or as an Inqusitor. Or whoever else Luke's theoretical wife becomes in the new EU..

To be fair, Luke's wife and (optional) other children are almost definitely going to get changed up within the next few years so I have no opinion about that.

It's the grand strategic elements and the 'history of the war' stuff that's stuck in my headcanon, more so than the personal family drama of the Skywalkers which never interested me that much.

Thrawn is problematic in a sense, in that he doesn't seem like he would honestly fit the current Empire all that well. Especially as his original motive seemed tied to the Yuzhaan Vong, which I sincirely hope stays out of the new canon.

Thrawn doesn't belong in the new movies because the First Order has a well defined agenda.

Thrawn originated as, simply, another Imperial warlord who decided to stop screwing around and start marshalling his resources to retake New Republic territory in the Imperial name. It's simply that he was very good at his job and was effective at doing so.

In my headcanon Thrawn's motivations for joining the Empire may have been different, his backstory may have been different, but until someone 'proves' he never launched a terrifying lightning campaign or sequence thereof against New Republic space circa about five years after Endor... I'm going to assume he did exactly that.

Simon_Jester wrote:Thrawn doesn't belong in the new movies because the First Order has a well defined agenda.

"Why the only puzzle worth solving, of course," the Grand Admiral said softly. "The complete, total, and utter destruction of the Rebellion."

Well, it'd make a delightful set of... 'interquels...' set between Episode VI and the 'official' Episode VII. It just doesn't fit what Disney's already announced and planned.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, it'd make a delightful set of... 'interquels...' set between Episode VI and the 'official' Episode VII. It just doesn't fit what Disney's already announced and planned.

So far, 75% of what Disney's announced and planned is pretty much shit.

The only thing I'm genuinely excited is about ROUGE ONE from the trailer. It looks to be the true Episode VII, not that JJ Abramsverse abortion.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, it'd make a delightful set of... 'interquels...' set between Episode VI and the 'official' Episode VII. It just doesn't fit what Disney's already announced and planned.

I like how Clone Wars filled the gap between episodes 2 and 3, how Rebels fills the gap between eps 3 and 4, and something to explain the rebuilding of the Republic between 6 and 7 seems logical... but perhaps they'll address that via another TV series.

Simon_Jester wrote:To be fair, Luke's wife and (optional) other children are almost definitely going to get changed up within the next few years so I have no opinion about that.

It's the grand strategic elements and the 'history of the war' stuff that's stuck in my headcanon, more so than the personal family drama of the Skywalkers which never interested me that much.

It is mainly a way of thinking of the stories as canon in some sense. At least in my head. And at least until something changes that produces something I like more.

Though the Wraith Squadron characters are at least as interesting as the events. And would actually fit just as well if their adventures occurred either during the films or as a means to set up the Battle of Jakku on a different front than the one involving Thrawn. Using the dimension of space to fit more stories into continuity is a perfectly reasonable solution, as opposed to purely dimensions of time as generally used in the old EU.

Also, going by the theory that Rey's mother dumped her on Jakku, Mara Jade seems to be one of the few who was capable enough to steal the Millennium Falcon. Who then left it for her daughter. It also just plain feels in character.

Thrawn doesn't belong in the new movies because the First Order has a well defined agenda.

Thrawn originated as, simply, another Imperial warlord who decided to stop screwing around and start marshalling his resources to retake New Republic territory in the Imperial name. It's simply that he was very good at his job and was effective at doing so.

In my headcanon Thrawn's motivations for joining the Empire may have been different, his backstory may have been different, but until someone 'proves' he never launched a terrifying lightning campaign or sequence thereof against New Republic space circa about five years after Endor... I'm going to assume he did exactly that.

The problem with Thrawn in the current continuity is that the Empire is incompetent, more than it is anything else. We also don't seem to see warlords to the same degree as the old-EU. As for the timeline, the fact that the events of Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future very loosely occur only a year after Endor rather mucks up Thrawn's original arc.

Though on the issue of the two sets of Zahn books, I always felt like they would have fit far better if they occurred back to back, which could actually work nicely with what I know of the new continuity. I am utterly ignoring the book Aftermath and only focusing on the broad outlines of the fact that we know about the Battle of Jakku.

My headcanon version of Thrawn currently occurs just before Jakku. After Endor, he completely takes command of the largest and strongest Imperial fleet that is still under a unified command. For nearly a year, even though he is not capable of dealing with the political crumbling of the Empire, he is doing so well militarily that nothing can stop him. Though he is deeply concerned about the fact that he has no apparent solution to Luke Skwalker, who has the nasty habit of interrupting his plans and is virtually impossible for normal stormtroopers or TIE fighters to stop.

Without Ysalimriri or Jorus, he recognizes the potential of Mara Jade, who was the only inquisitor who answered to the Emperor personally, and was so discrete that even Vader only barely knew of her existence(or frankly cared). Thrawn saw her as a potential solution to Luke if used properly. She jumped a the opportunity to serve someone loyal to the ideals of the Empire that she still believed in. After Endor, she was left adrift, and took up one of her old cover identities working for Talon Karrde as her actual identity. Within this persona, she ends up running into Luke, after which they are forced to work together against an Imperial warlord.

Just after the events of this, she is recruited, and uses her old skills to conceal her intentions from even Luke. As a result, she is able to get close and do some damage. Though as Luke continues to save her, she is left with a sense that she is on the wrong side. Eventually, she finds that Thrawn was responsible for betraying her in the past, leading to her being the one who shoves the knife blade into his back. This also leads to her fully doubting the survivability of the Empire and whether she should continue to serve it.

The element of Thrawn's biggest mistake being the one thing he couldn't possibly know, that Leia was Vader's daughter, should also play into this as well(though in this version, the fact that she is Force sensitive is also concealed). Perhaps Mara and Leia sense each other, leading to Leia recognizing her, which leads to an additional conflict as well as eventually leading to the truth about Thrawn and Mara's backstories being revealed, in which he was indirectly responsible for her current predicament.

The events of Spectre of the Past largely occur at roughly the same time as Jakku, with the baddies largely executing Thrawn's original plan. Which he himself rejected as being too destructive to the overall galaxy. It thus leaves Pellaeon as one of the higher ranking Imperial officers who opposes the plan. In this verison he was also a Vice-admiral at Endor. Who still gave the retreat order. His higher rank gives him the reasonable option of having enough rank to oppose the plan as well as his role as serving as Thrawn's #2.

The Luke and Mara arc here are about his quest to rebuild the Jedi rather than about the main events of the story. As is their arc in Survivor's Quest(which I liked as a mystery almost in the style of Agatha Christie but with the option of ending in a battle rather than dialog). It also takes place a couple years after Jakku rather than 20 years later. Thrawn's role with the Chiss can now tie into the remnants of the Empire in the Unknown regions or the First Order rather than anything involving the Vong.

Anyway, my headcanon rather strongly diverges from either version of actual canon regardless, partially because it is intended to write a series of RPG campaigns, but also because I don't entirely like either version of actual canon. One that I am currently toying with even lets players develop original versions of Luke, Leia and Han. For the purposes of this, the status of 7-9 is still undecided. We'll see if the next couple fix the things that currently bother me about the direction things are headed.

biostem wrote:I like how Clone Wars filled the gap between episodes 2 and 3, how Rebels fills the gap between eps 3 and 4, and something to explain the rebuilding of the Republic between 6 and 7 seems logical... but perhaps they'll address that via another TV series.

Apart from the fun adventure elements of the series, the parts that actually tried to explain plot points weren't very good. Like the clone control chip or the Yoda mystery episodes that led to the Jedi having more than enough evidence that there was a serious problem with the clone army that was connected to Dooku that leads to them doing nothing about it. Labyrinth of Evil is a much more palatable version of these events.

Adam Reynolds wrote:The problem with Thrawn in the current continuity is that the Empire is incompetent, more than it is anything else.

That is, unless you believe that the unidentified fleet admiral and Admiral Rae Sloane are the ones calling the shots. Apparently, the fleet admiral surreptitiously poached the Empire's finest to his side, which could explain why it fell so quickly. I think it remains to be seen if they're the ones who established the First Order or if they're going to remain strictly in the EU and cause trouble in the years between ROTJ and TFA.

The fleet admiral's brain drain could explain why there was no competent leadership around during Jakku that was either willing or able to wrest control from the likes of Grand Moff Randd. I still wonder where Mas Amedda fits into all this as well. Is he the de facto leader of what's left of the Empire during the Galactic Concordance?

Galvatron wrote: That is, unless you believe that the unidentified fleet admiral and Admiral Rae Sloane are the ones calling the shots. Apparently, the fleet admiral surreptitiously poached the Empire's finest to his side, which could explain why it fell so quickly. I think it remains to be seen if they're the ones who established the First Order or if they're going to remain strictly in the EU and cause trouble in the years between ROTJ and TFA.

The fleet admiral's brain drain could explain why there was no competent leadership around during Jakku that was either willing or able to wrest control from the likes of Grand Moff Randd. I still wonder where Mas Amedda fits into all this as well. Is he the de facto leader of what's left of the Empire during the Galactic Concordance?

Looking at the depiction in Lost Stars, you are probably right. It also shows the Empire rebuilding after Jakku. It is likely Thrawn(or someone like him) is a part of it, allowing something similar to the original version to play out, especially if the NR weakens as a result of the peace treaty. He might have also played a role in that, leading to the Empire gaining relative strength.

It would explain why the New Republic is headquartered on Hosnian Prime rather than Coruscant by the time of The Force Awakens.

Maybe I should check out Aftermath and see how the two are reconciled. One wonders whether the Empire turns into the First Order or if they do something else in between.

Adam Reynolds wrote:Maybe I should check out Aftermath and see how the two are reconciled. One wonders whether the Empire turns into the First Order or if they do something else in between.

Evidently, there's a follow-up novel set for release in July that features the fleet admiral and Sloane, so it's possible that we'll see closure to their story long before TFA.

I'm sure Snoke is off limits to the EU writers for now so it's entirely possible that they had nothing at all to do with the First Order and exist solely to provide filler for the 30 year gap of historical nothingness that TFA gave us.

If they follow a similar pattern to how they released EU material for the prequels, the time period in between film releases is going to be chock-full of filler novels that carefully avoid speculating on specific characters from the films who may be important to the actual plots. Snoke won't get any coverage. Kylo Ren/Ben Solo *may* get some coverage that will be notably absent anything that's actually applicable to Episodes 8 and 9. There'll be a bunch of novels about characters that barely appear, or don't even appear, in the films.

The big change will be that now that the old EU is out the window, Disney/LFL is free to rewrite that whole period TPM-ROTJ as much as they like. We've already seen some major steps in that direction with the new line of Star Wars comics and young adult novels. Between Episodes 7-9 I expect to see a lot of material coming out to cover that time period.

The problem is that they also have carefully avoid making off-the-cuff statements about historical events like Zahn did when he wrote the original Thrawn trilogy.

Remember that whole mess he made about the Emperor ordering Thrawn to destroy Outbound Flight shortly before the outbreak of the Clone Wars? He ended up writing another novel to retcon that so it would make sense, but it's an example of the type of thing that can happen when these books and comics are written before the movies are.

The anthology movies are going to make it even harder for the EU writers to avoid stepping on their own dicks.

In the long run I feel it will make it impossible, just as it did before. Which will inevitably lead to another reboot.

On the upside, they have produced a few interesting novels in the new continuity that could even fit within the old, leading to my current headcannon being something of a mix of the two. Though the post-ROTJ era is still up in the air within this framework. I like enough of the old continuity to want to see some of it survive, but also strongly dislike everything that takes place chronologically after Survivor's Quest. Having the new movies take up that era instead of the Yuzhaan Vong is an improvement.

I also, in principle, like the idea of a short war. It makes the Rebellion as effective as it should have always been.

Well, the old EU didn't have today's Lucasfilm Story Group to shepherd it all. It's possible that they have to read every piece of EU writing before it gets published. That should help prevent major contradictions from arising.