StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Beowulf wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:On rifles and overpenetration, a softpoint 223 or other non FMJ bullet suitable for self defence is very good for these kind of situations, 9mm penetrates drywall and keeps going better than a soft point 223 will.

If you're going for a rifle, get a an AR, it's really the gun unless you're in an AWB state. Otherwise a shotgun, rem 870 or Mossberg 500/590. Kit it out with a light after if you like. From what I see it's pretty much these three guns it boils down when handguns are thrown out. Though you should check before buying an AR so aren't getting shafted and paying top dollar for the cheapest budget shit they got. Palmetto state armory is a good brand for the money when it comes to ARs.

I've heard good stuff about PSA rifles... but they're still $550 and up, while she has a limit of $500.

I missed the part about the limit. But this makes a pretty convincing case for pump action shotgun, you can find old police 870s all the time for sub 200, or at least yo could a few years ago. Spend the extra money on ammo for training.

I'll concede the reliablity factor, since I don't own a pump-action (they out-lawed for civilian use in Austria with some some criminal abuse nonsense argument a while ago. Funnily, semi-auto shotguns are still ok... ), but only rifles.

TheFeniX wrote:If price is the biggest deciding factor: I still recommend the 12/20-gauge pump because I've never seen a side-by-side (or god forbid an over-under) as cheap as a Remington or Mossberg pump. If I'm wrong in this, I apologize. Even Academy won't sell their cheapest one for less than $380 and they've always had some of the best prices on long-guns. I can walk in right now and get a Maverick 12-gauge for $180. There's 20-gauge pumps in the same price area. They are ridiculously good quality shotguns for that price.

From the arms dealer, you can get a cheap pump-action(only sold for german customers), a sideby side, or a semi-auto for about 500€, so to me the price difference is moot - If the pumps are that much cheaper in the US, they are certainly a good option.

Summitgunbroker is the place I hear about for cheap police surplus guns and the like, it'd be mail order so you could not inspect it in person but summitgunbroker should be a reliable source and it's pretty hard to break a rem 870:

http://summitgunbroker.com/870-wm-rs-llw.html (orange stock, but do you care? rifle sights might be more of an issue)
http://summitgunbroker.com/870-wm-llw.html (orange, no rifle sights, orange less than lethal stocks, still shoots real ammo tho, but it might give someone a tragically different idea)
http://summitgunbroker.com/870-pm-rs.html

You can usually find acceptable quality AK variants for cheapish. Although if your budget is < $300 then yeah, ignore my recommendation.

If inspecting in person is important to you, you can also check local police auctions. Besides civil forfeiture stuff, they'll sometimes auction off surplus equipment.
My father got a pair of Remington 870s for ~$500 at a local police auction and then sold one to further reduce the cost of the one he kept. Although whether or not they auction firearms may depend on jurisdiction; nearby urban sheriffs may be more likely to auction guns than an inner city precinct.

For online purchases, I've used bud's gun shop(linked above) and gunbroker.com

Now don't jump down my throat too hard, but have you considered a Ruger 10/22?

Pros : Inexpensive, lightweight, can fire rapidly, available magazines up to 100 rounds, less chance of penetrating walls than a higher-powered rifle.

Cons : Not as much stopping power as higher-caliber rifles or shotguns so many more shots are needed to put someone down (but you can fire rapidly and have a large magazine to compensate)

Thoughts?

Even the best 22lrs are known to jam all the time, often due to ammo issues. There's no shortage of people having been shot with stronger caliber guns multiple times and survived as well, I think it would putting oneself at more risk.

I'm going to have to echo what many have said before. A good break open or a nice pump action. 20 gauge buckshot is ideal for home defense and won't over penetrate walls.

Anything else gets significantly more expensive. Don't spend money when you don't need to. You don't need a Glock 17. You don't need a 45 caliber SMG wanabe. You don't need an AR-15. You don't need a Marlin .357 lever action. Go for cheap and effective.

Be prepared to become deaf or nearly so after having to use a shotgun indoors though. I know one guy had active earpro resting on his shotgun due to this, but it was lampooned as a bad idea because it added another step and what if the earpro was turned off, etc.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Even the best 22lrs are known to jam all the time, often due to ammo issues. There's no shortage of people having been shot with stronger caliber guns multiple times and survived as well, I think it would putting oneself at more risk.

Huh, I always thought 22s were fairly reliable. But then again I've always favored black powder at the range so I don't have much experience with 22s. As far as the burgler surviving...well the goal should be to stop him, not necessary kill him. A dozen 22lr rounds in his chest might not kill him but it'll put him down for sure.

You can't know that, lots of stories around where people weren't put down by more due to adrenaline etc. Not your place to risk your life due to some burglaring asshat IMO. Get a shotgun, 12ga & buckshot, 20ga with #3 buckshot or larger should also work.

As for .22lrs I don't think I've had better than a failure in 1-200 rounds with quality ammunition and a manual repeater (failure such as a click, or just a round that got bent out of shape by handling or manufacturing error so it wouldn't feed).

Borgholio wrote:

His Divine Shadow wrote:Even the best 22lrs are known to jam all the time, often due to ammo issues. There's no shortage of people having been shot with stronger caliber guns multiple times and survived as well, I think it would putting oneself at more risk.

Huh, I always thought 22s were fairly reliable. But then again I've always favored black powder at the range so I don't have much experience with 22s. As far as the burgler surviving...well the goal should be to stop him, not necessary kill him. A dozen 22lr rounds in his chest might not kill him but it'll put him down for sure.

If you're not willing to kill someone when you point a gun at them then you have no business using a gun for self defense. Get a taser instead.

On the upside - things have settled down a LOT since we whacked Shovelboy. I ran into the bar owner and told him about the incident, and gave him the information to find the police report on his own. Pointed out that he confessed to fucking around with doors and stuff and maybe his loud-mouthed buddies in the bar should be informed that the kid really was up to no good, by his own admission. Also gave him the information about the would-be truck thief a number of years ago who turned on my spouse and got a crossbow bolt for his trouble so yeah, the kid got off easy under the circumstances. Said I didn't have an issue with there being a bar next door, we've lived next to a bar for 16 years now, but we can't tolerate lawbreakers and troublemakers on our side of the property line and they will be dealt with.

Also mentioned one of his patrons has been staggering out at closing time so drunk he has trouble walking and has been passing out nearby. Said I haven't called the cops on the guy because it's only happened a couple times and he's not causing trouble, in fact, I'm more worried about him getting hurt than vice versa, but he might want to cut the gent off a little sooner. The guy most recently passed out draped across the hood of the landlord's Xterra, which is better than him wandering out into traffic I suppose.

My spouse did catch the owner telling people to park in the bar's lot and not elsewhere (they won't park on our lot anymore since "Tracey That Bitch" got towed but we're not the only neighbors having issues) and apparently some of the asshats have been kicked out of the bar. I don't really much care why, I'm just glad that we're currently having fewer problems.

I just hope the rest of the summer stays quiet.

Borgholio wrote: Huh, I always thought 22s were fairly reliable. But then again I've always favored black powder at the range so I don't have much experience with 22s. As far as the burgler surviving...well the goal should be to stop him, not necessary kill him. A dozen 22lr rounds in his chest might not kill him but it'll put him down for sure.

As said already, if you care about killing you already failed completely at this topic. Killing is much easier then stopping. Death can take its time, stopping can't.

Nothing .22LR is reliable, certainly not in my experience, the cartridges are so damn small the production tolerances and thermal expansion are a big problem and nobody makes self defense loadings that I've ever heard of. Last time I was on the range both Marlin's jammed multiple times as did my bolt action Lancaster. Oh and the Ruger 10/22 the guy beside us happened to have. All with cheap ammo, but that only matters so much.

You want a dozen rounds in someones chest instantly, you use a shotgun. That's kind of the whole point of one! .22LR loadings are considered (small) varmit ammo for a reason.

I could almost recommend the .22LR if I wasn't going to echo the sentiment that they are unreliable at best. If they had more powder and/or were a larger caliber, they'd even be dangerous. I can't tell you the number of times a cartridge has bent when trying to feed into the action, forcing me to use my little multi-tool to forcibly remove them. The round does not stack well at all and you get all kinds of issues with different loads: low pressure, high pressure, deformity, friction, etc. The action of many .22LRs are another problem all-together. If the action/spring is too heavy, the recoil pressure isn't enough to cycle the action. If the action/spring is too weak/light, it can't get the next round into the chamber.

A .22 magnum revolver or a rifle based off the same mechanism could correct this: it doesn't fire, pull the trigger again. And they do make .22LR defense rounds. Two I know of are standard flattening hollow-points and a fragmentation bullet that breaks up into multiple pieces. Not saying I wouldn't use one if it's all I had, but there's much better options for the money.

I withdraw my suggestion about the .22. I've used them before but not often enough to judge their long-term reliability. Regarding shotguns, I've seen people mention 20-gauge cartridges. Wouldn't there be more stopping power if you used larger gauge such as 16 or 12?

Borgholio wrote:I withdraw my suggestion about the .22. I've used them before but not often enough to judge their long-term reliability. Regarding shotguns, I've seen people mention 20-gauge cartridges. Wouldn't there be more stopping power if you used larger gauge such as 16 or 12?

You do know that this gun is supposed to be for Broomstick? She wants a gun she's not afraid to pull the trigger and possibly get knocked over/out by the recoil. That's why I recommended that she should go an test shoot a couple of calibers to find one she is comfortable with. 20gauge is always a good start, if she cna handle something bigger - well, great - but a 20 will certainly be enough to spoil the day of whoever has to face it.

A 130lb kid can handle a 12 gauge. I don't think Broomstick's going to be especially bothered by it. They also make reduced recoil buckshot loads.

LaCroix wrote:You do know that this gun is supposed to be for Broomstick? She wants a gun she's not afraid to pull the trigger and possibly get knocked over/out by the recoil. That's why I recommended that she should go an test shoot a couple of calibers to find one she is comfortable with. 20gauge is always a good start, if she cna handle something bigger - well, great - but a 20 will certainly be enough to spoil the day of whoever has to face it.

12 gauge slugs hurt to shoot because you're firing a 1oz slug at about 2200FPS, but even then the recoil isn't enough to make you drop the gun or get knocked-back unless you're firing without the stock on your shoulder or your stance is terrible (usually a combination of poor foot placement and leaning back when firing, rather than having a short lean forward). And by "hurts to shoot" I mean it's just not that comfortable, unlike firing heavy-dove load all day.

It's not until you get into the 10-gauge calibers that the whole "boom-stick" Hollywood recoil comes into play. This is less to do with the gauge or more to do with the larger amounts of powder to get the effective range (in the case of goose-guns) or penetration (same thing really) in the case of so-called elephant guns. You can fire lighter loads out of a 10-gauge that won't kick much at all.

As said, a kid can fire a 12-gauge without issue. The only problems they seem to have is their arms aren't in proportion to their body. So, holding the fore-grip steadily can be an issue. My nephew, who is 12, has a youth-model 12-gauge he fires without issue. He has issues with mine and his father's shotgun because it's not made for someone with his build.

yeah, and that's one of my problems - most guns are NOT designed or built for someone of my proportions. I have to be able to get myself properly around the gun in order to properly control it. A lot of time I have to use "youth" weapons, intended for those 12 year old boys, in order to get something sized to my frame.

Don't get me started on pink guns targeted at women... I have issues, one of them being that sometimes all it is is a "man's" gun with a different colored stock, so it's not designed for the size of the average woman. AND they up the price, the bastards.

At least thats less of an issue with a handgun but those are off the table. There are youth stocks available for remington 870s though.

It can be a problem with handguns, too. My hands are strong - I can crack open pecans with my bare hands - but they're small. A lot of grips not just for handguns but also for tools are too big for me to really be comfortable. I can hang onto them, but the mis-sized grip leads to fatigue much sooner than I would experience otherwise. I am told, however, that the situation these days is not as bad as it was 40 or 50 years ago, at least these days it's possible to get grips sized for small hands.

You know in my experience grips these days are larger on average, grips on old revolvers are smaller (100 or so years ago), because people used to be smaller, I think it was around 40-50 years ago larger grips on guns that would otherwise have had quite small grips got more popular.

On the other hand we also have a lot of compact guns now too such as glock 19s or 26s and a whole slew of other subcompacts that didn't exist until recently, the market for truly small semi automatics has blown up recently.

The old 1911 is also known for fitting more easily in smaller hands, back then it was made for the average size of hands. Nowadays lots of people like it for it's thin profile, though I like mine with a nice pair of thick wooden grips.

TheFeniX wrote:

LaCroix wrote:You do know that this gun is supposed to be for Broomstick? She wants a gun she's not afraid to pull the trigger and possibly get knocked over/out by the recoil. That's why I recommended that she should go an test shoot a couple of calibers to find one she is comfortable with. 20gauge is always a good start, if she cna handle something bigger - well, great - but a 20 will certainly be enough to spoil the day of whoever has to face it.

12 gauge slugs hurt to shoot because you're firing a 1oz slug at about 2200FPS, but even then the recoil isn't enough to make you drop the gun or get knocked-back unless you're firing without the stock on your shoulder or your stance is terrible (usually a combination of poor foot placement and leaning back when firing, rather than having a short lean forward). And by "hurts to shoot" I mean it's just not that comfortable, unlike firing heavy-dove load all day.

It's not until you get into the 10-gauge calibers that the whole "boom-stick" Hollywood recoil comes into play. This is less to do with the gauge or more to do with the larger amounts of powder to get the effective range (in the case of goose-guns) or penetration (same thing really) in the case of so-called elephant guns. You can fire lighter loads out of a 10-gauge that won't kick much at all.

As said, a kid can fire a 12-gauge without issue. The only problems they seem to have is their arms aren't in proportion to their body. So, holding the fore-grip steadily can be an issue. My nephew, who is 12, has a youth-model 12-gauge he fires without issue. He has issues with mine and his father's shotgun because it's not made for someone with his build.

I was referring to the psychological side - my brother has an old Mosin Nagant which has brutal recoil - you catch yourself closing your eyes and gritting your teeth (as in 'bracing for impact') while pulling the trigger, and it actually makes you stagger if shooting from a standing position. I'm comfortable shooting my Enfield .303 all day, but I'm franky scared of using his gun - it just hurts so bad.

Broomstick wrote:yeah, and that's one of my problems - most guns are NOT designed or built for someone of my proportions. I have to be able to get myself properly around the gun in order to properly control it. A lot of time I have to use "youth" weapons, intended for those 12 year old boys, in order to get something sized to my frame.

Don't get me started on pink guns targeted at women... I have issues, one of them being that sometimes all it is is a "man's" gun with a different colored stock, so it's not designed for the size of the average woman. AND they up the price, the bastards.

That's the sad reality of guns, like any product: the more they churn out, the cheaper they are. The good news is that youth models are still pretty cheap. You should be able to a 12-20 gauge at around the same price you would buy a standard model.

This is also why I recommended something like a Hi-point carbine or some of the shorter (and sometimes cheaper) rifles: they may fit your frame better (the carbine definitely will).

LaCroix wrote:I was referring to the psychological side - my brother has an old Mosin Nagant which has brutal recoil - you catch yourself closing your eyes and gritting your teeth (as in 'bracing for impact') while pulling the trigger, and it actually makes you stagger if shooting from a standing position. I'm comfortable shooting my Enfield .303 all day, but I'm franky scared of using his gun - it just hurts so bad.

Eh? My buddy has a full-length Mosin and some kind of carbine model. They both kick, but I can fire them with no issues while standing. Then again, I am like 6'2" 200+Lbs. But my wife can also fire them without staggering because her stance is correct. You would be amazed how much better your shoulder and body can deal with recoil if you modify your stance. It also helps to be doing something when firing rather than just thinking about firing. Focus on the target, shoot at something that requires precision aim (like nails), or moving targets like Trap or Skeet (WRT shotguns). Once you aren't thinking "this is going to hurt" it generally doesn't, at least not nearly as bad as if you tense up and let all the recoil slam into your rigid frame.

But that bolt-action. That hard-90 bolt.... that shit will wear you out. Must need muscles tempered with vodka to work that action.

TheFeniX wrote:Eh? My buddy has a full-length Mosin and some kind of carbine model. They both kick, but I can fire them with no issues while standing. Then again, I am like 6'2" 200+Lbs. But my wife can also fire them without staggering because her stance is correct. You would be amazed how much better your shoulder and body can deal with recoil if you modify your stance. It also helps to be doing something when firing rather than just thinking about firing. Focus on the target, shoot at something that requires precision aim (like nails), or moving targets like Trap or Skeet (WRT shotguns). Once you aren't thinking "this is going to hurt" it generally doesn't, at least not nearly as bad as if you tense up and let all the recoil slam into your rigid frame.

But that bolt-action. That hard-90 bolt.... that shit will wear you out. Must need muscles tempered with vodka to work that action.

It probably had some issues, as it was well worn.

I can reliably hit a playing card at 200m with only a diopter on my Enfield, so it's not my technique. Nor the size - my brothers and I are all your size - but it's an example of what I'm talking about. This gun leaves a bruise with every shot (no kidding, my brother actually started putting a folded towel under the stock to dampen it without modifying it - and it even hurt at the first shot, when we weren't expecting it and tensing up), and once you know that, you just can't shoot it comfortably, anymore. This particular weapon is something unfit for defense by that criterium alone.

My brothers wife is about 5ft5, and heavily built, but she outright refuses to handle that gun for the pain it causes - I'd shudder to think what it would do to my 130lbs wife. Definitely not fit for female use.