StarDestroyer.Net BBS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqCJ-UGYns

I just re-watched the scene (I'd post it but I don't know how to do movie clips). If you look really carefully, at 3:18-3:19 you can see on the wall in the background a diagram of the E-A. Bad editing for sure, but they were closing the pressure doors on the E-A, not the Excelsior.

As far as it can be determined, apart from rocking a bit the Excelsior did not take any damage from the torpedo (though I imagine the shields would have been weakened by it to an unknown degree).

This might be why Chang decided to switch back to the E-A after only firing one torpedo. IMO he immediately realised that the Excelsior would be far more difficult to destroy so he decided to focus his efforts on finishing off the E-A first.

Incidentally the BOP was pretty damn tough, by my count it took 6-7 photon torpedoes to destroy even though it was completely unshielded.

On the wall in the background is a diagram that looks like a Constitution pregnant with triplets but I'm willing to consider the possibility that scene may have been on the Big E rather than NCC.2000.

even if it was the Excelsior remember that Sulu was going faster then it was recomanded to reach Khitomer in time, with the Helmsman saying that if they keep up at that speed "she'll fly apart", so it's not impossible that the Excelsior either didn't have full shields up or had simply taken stress damage before.

Tribble wrote:Incidentally the BOP was pretty damn tough, by my count it took 6-7 photon torpedoes to destroy even though it was completely unshielded.

Um-no? The thing was mission-killed with the first hit from the Big E, and I very much suspect the latter half of the bombardment wound up essentially turning bits of wreckage into smaller bits of wreckage.

Incidentaly, I'd say that the Excelsior hit did more than "rock the ship a bit." At least one guy was thrown clean across the bridge by it.

Plus, closing pressure doors should be something they do anyway in battle, no?

The Rebel Alliance in SW also never beat the Empire in any straight up and "fair" battle, they always exploited weak spots. The one time they couldn't, at Hoth, they lost. If a straight up battle would only favor the enemy, why should anyone indulge them and unnecessarily risk losses and damage?

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Incidentaly, I'd say that the Excelsior hit did more than "rock the ship a bit." At least one guy was thrown clean across the bridge by it.

The angle of impact was almost 90 degrees and was pretty much near the bottom of the bridge - im not surprised it did.

Metahive wrote:The Rebel Alliance in SW also never beat the Empire in any straight up and "fair" battle, they always exploited weak spots. The one time they couldn't, at Hoth, they lost. If a straight up battle would only favor the enemy, why should anyone indulge them and unnecessarily risk losses and damage?

I dunno, they sorta beat the empire in a straight up battle at Endor. Being outnumbered ship-to-ship and against a death star, but taking them both out head on, seems pretty 'fair' to me.

Nope, without tricking their way into the Death Star shield generator and then exploiting the exposed power core of the DS2 itself they would have lost fair and square.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Skylon wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:TMP: The Ent survived a direct hit from V'Ger, the same thing that 1 shot three klingon cruisers and an entire space station.

The Klingon ships, nor Epsilon IX were not "1-shoted".

eh?

We see exactly one shot hit the Klingon ships and it is destroyed (or "Patterned"). Same for Epsilon 9. I only brought it up as I'd just watched the film. It fires once at each thing, with the Enterprise being the only thing able to withstand a hit.

Why were the klingons shaking? I dunno, over-running their engines trying to get away? It's a split screen, you can see the sensor-readout next to it - it's not firing anything.

With respect, when in all of Trek have we seen a ship "over-running their engines" result in a sudden, rather violent shudder on the bridge?

As I recall, the Epsilon outpost reported that "IKC Amar was continuing her attack," but we didn't see any outgoing disruptor or photon torpedoes on that split-screen readout to indicate that either, did we?

The most likely reason the Amar was rocked about so violently was because she was hit by one of V'Ger's weapons. The other ships in her formation were probably hit offscreen and/or nailed in critical areas.

Besides, even if the three K'Tinga-class ships were "one-shotted" away, so what? They were openly hostile and the Enterprise was not. We know V'Ger's weapons were of variable effect, so it's no stretch that the Enterprise could've been swatted with a percentage or significant fraction of what was fired at the Klingon battlegroup.

That's the way I'd deal with insects, anyway. Aggressive yellow jackets get the full treatment, but I tend to be a bit more moderate with carpenter and honey bees.

-Sean

Since when do Trek ship shake from outgoing fire anyway? Incoming, yes, and often excessively given the yields mentioned. They never shake from firing their own weapons (this is the part where you point out the episode somewhere in Trek where exactly that happens and start mocking me).

And if V'Ger was not shooting to kill, why shoot at all? Yes, we may put more effort into killing some insects than others, but that doesn't change the fact that the intended outcome is we succeed in killing them. So if V'Ger didn't intend to kill the Big E-why did it fire?

I'm pretty sure the Enterprise rocks visibly when firing phasers in Balance of Terror

EDIT: Since you quite literally asked for it I couldn't resist

(this is the part where you point out the episode somewhere in Trek where exactly that happens and start mocking me).

Star Trek reboot when Enterprise jumps out of warp and shoots down the incoming missiles. Either it's the ship shaking due to the power of the phaser bursts or it's another example of JJ Abrams' typical camerawork.

seanrobertson wrote: With respect, when in all of Trek have we seen a ship "over-running their engines" result in a sudden, rather violent shudder on the bridge?

Star Trek 4 (BoP), Star trek 6 (Excelsior), Star Trek TMP (wormhole - that was an engine problem), the Defiant itself nearly "tore itself apart" when its engines were tested at full power, Voyager trying a full reverse when coming out of slipstream was shaking all over the place (Timeless).

As I recall, the Epsilon outpost reported that "IKC Amar was continuing her attack," but we didn't see any outgoing disruptor or photon torpedoes on that split-screen readout to indicate that either, did we?

The most likely reason the Amar was rocked about so violently was because she was hit by one of V'Ger's weapons. The other ships in her formation were probably hit offscreen and/or nailed in critical areas.

Besides, even if the three K'Tinga-class ships were "one-shotted" away, so what? They were openly hostile and the Enterprise was not. We know V'Ger's weapons were of variable effect, so it's no stretch that the Enterprise could've been swatted with a percentage or significant fraction of what was fired at the Klingon battlegroup.

That's the way I'd deal with insects, anyway. Aggressive yellow jackets get the full treatment, but I tend to be a bit more moderate with carpenter and honey bees.

-Sean

The Enterprise also had new shields. Sulu makes a point of it - "The new screens held", sounding a bit surprised.

I don't see it as being a strange thought that the Constitution class could take a hit and the Klingon ships couldn't. Episilon 9 was just a subspace radio station / telescope, it wouldn't have massive shield reserves as it hopefully wouldn't need them.

It was just an off hand comment about how in most of the films the Enterprise is hopefully outgunned (especially the new films) but in this one, out of the "Standard" ship types, it was the most powerful. As it should be; it's the Enterprise.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Star Trek 4 (BoP), Star trek 6 (Excelsior), Star Trek TMP (wormhole - that was an engine problem), the Defiant itself nearly "tore itself apart" when its engines were tested at full power, Voyager trying a full reverse when coming out of slipstream was shaking all over the place (Timeless).

The TMP wormhole, the Defiant and the Voyager's slipstream problems aren't apples to apples. For that matter, neither's the Excelsior example, which was at warp when we're told, but never actually see, her "fly apart." (I honestly don't know what you mean about Trek IV (?).)

Why?

Simple: The three Klingon cruisers in TMP were clearly at impulse speeds.

As I said, the Epsilon station told us the Imperial Klingon Cruiser Amar was "continuing her attack." But we didn't see evidence of that on the split-screen you mentioned, so it is logical to assume we also wouldn't see incoming fire from V'Ger on the same monitor.

Yet, the ship shuddered, like it'd taken a brutal hit.

Well over 9 times in 10, when we see a ship rock about like that, it's because someone is shooting stuff at said ship. The logical inference is that Amar took a hit from one of V'Ger's weapons before the final blow.

What is so far-fetched about that? Nothing ... unless you blindly start from the assumption that the refit Enterprise must be tougher than one of her Klingon counterparts.

Maybe she is. Maybe the hit which rocked the Amar destroyed her shields and did some structural damage, too. But it is equally possible her shields were even stronger than the E-refit's. Based on the info we have, it's indeterminate; all we can say is it is extremely likely a K'Tinga can withstand at least one hit from V'Ger's weird weapon without being "digitized."

The Enterprise also had new shields. Sulu makes a point of it - "The new screens held", sounding a bit surprised.

Of course she did. She was refitted! The K'Tinga-class ships were refits or brand-new ships, too. Why should the refit Constitution take hits the Klingons couldn't?

Mind you, I would tend to assume the new Enterprise could whip a single K'Tinga, and a contributing factor to that might be marginally superior defenses. But that's just intuition talking. Where's the evidence?

I honestly don't know what you mean about Trek IV

Kirk took the captured BoB in a slingshot maneuver around the sun to go back (and then forward again) in time. Both times, the ship was shaking like the inside of a paint mixer. According to dialogue, the ship was able to max cruise around warp 8, but they were trying to push it past 9.9.

It's pretty amazing it held together given the stress it was under. That could feed in to points brought up earlier about how durable a BoP has been shown to be when in combat. Maybe it's just a VERY well constructed ship.

seanrobertson wrote:
As I said, the Epsilon station told us the Imperial Klingon Cruiser Amar was "continuing her attack." But we didn't see evidence of that on the split-screen you mentioned, so it is logical to assume we also wouldn't see incoming fire from V'Ger on the same monitor.

That was in either the original cut, or the version that was on VHS in the 90's - which I remember a lot better than the clip I posted from the "Director's Edition" (where text was in place of that image of the V'Ger cloud, translating a report from the Klingon Captain on the progress of the attack). I also seem to remember a shot the Klingon Captain being thrown around on the bridge - but I can't find any video of those earlier cuts of the film online.

Still, I agree feel the rocking implies the Klingon cruisers took a couple hits, hence why I posted it.

As for Epsilon IX, on rewatching the scene, we don't see any clear V'Ger torpedoes, just the station in the process of being digitized - what I thought were multiple torpedo hits were actually navigation lights on the station - so, I'll concede that.

seanrobertson wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Star Trek 4 (BoP), Star trek 6 (Excelsior),
What is so far-fetched about that? Nothing ... unless you blindly start from the assumption that the refit Enterprise must be tougher than one of her Klingon counterparts.

I have the vague idea that in the novelization, the Enterprise was specified as tougher than all three Klingon ships combined. But my vague recollections of a novel are pretty far down the canon hierarchy.

seanrobertson wrote:
Simple: The three Klingon cruisers in TMP were clearly at impulse speeds.

Were they?

Where is that in the script or dialogue or visuals?

Warp trails were not shown until Star Trek II. In TMP, whilst entering Warp, it went all glowy but once actually in warp and cruising along, that stops and the stars just go past like they're at Impulse.

I think the underlying reason for this is that Star Trek stories usually aren't 'war stories' as such. In a war story, having the story end with a hard-fought battle against a tough but comparable opponent, in which our heroes succeed purely by being better at fighting than the opponent, is normal.

But Star Trek plots rarely adhere to that convention.

It's more common for enemies to have some new, powerful capability that makes them an insurmountable threat... and then our heroes have to find a way to overcome that capability by cunning and resourcefulness. This has been common ever since the original series: I don't know how many episodes of TOS summarize as "Kirk/Enterprise encounters a seemingly invincible enemy, and must somehow work out a way of stopping it without getting crushed by its superior power," but it's got to be well into the double digits.

I think its a shame what they did with the Enterprise E - The "Most advanced ship in the fleet". At least with the other ships in the series, they weren't spring chickens. The Enterprise E was rather impressive against the Borg Cube IMO.

It should have enjoyed more dominance in space than the 1 movie run it got. If the plot called for it to take heavy damage in Insurrection and Nemesis, it should have been against a larger fleet that allowed it to still show qualitative superiority.

I think they missed an opportunity in Nemesis to have the Federation fleet waiting just across the border charge in to save the day instead of having Data play superman...

I think its a shame what they did with the Enterprise E - The "Most advanced ship in the fleet". At least with the other ships in the series, they weren't spring chickens. The Enterprise E was rather impressive against the Borg Cube IMO.

It should have enjoyed more dominance in space than the 1 movie run it got. If the plot called for it to take heavy damage in Insurrection and Nemesis, it should have been against a larger fleet that allowed it to still show qualitative superiority.

I don't see why the E-E was impressive against the Borg Cube. The Cube had been fighting all the way to Earth against the fleet, and had already suffered shield failure (every shot against the Cube was clearly seen impacting the hull), heavy damage to the outer hull, minor locations in the power grid, and the damaged portion which Picard focused on. The E-E took all of two hits, withdrew for a moment to beam the survivors from the Defiant onboard, and then joined the fleet in bombarding the damaged section of the Cube.

If anything I'd say the most impressive ship in STFC was the Defiant. As far as I know it was the only ship was confirmed to have fought the Cube from the initial encounter all the way to Earth, and despite being heavily damaged when we first see it on screen it still took an additional two hits to disable it completely. Meanwhile the Cube was shown taking out other ships in the fleet with a single shot. As Riker said, it was a "tough little ship".

Tribble wrote:

I think its a shame what they did with the Enterprise E - The "Most advanced ship in the fleet". At least with the other ships in the series, they weren't spring chickens. The Enterprise E was rather impressive against the Borg Cube IMO.

It should have enjoyed more dominance in space than the 1 movie run it got. If the plot called for it to take heavy damage in Insurrection and Nemesis, it should have been against a larger fleet that allowed it to still show qualitative superiority.

I don't see why the E-E was impressive against the Borg Cube. The Cube had been fighting all the way to Earth against the fleet, and had already suffered shield failure (every shot against the Cube was clearly seen impacting the hull), heavy damage to the outer hull, minor locations in the power grid, and the damaged portion which Picard focused on. The E-E took all of two hits, withdrew for a moment to beam the survivors from the Defiant onboard, and then joined the fleet in bombarding the damaged section of the Cube.

If anything I'd say the most impressive ship in STFC was the Defiant. As far as I know it was the only ship was confirmed to have fought the Cube from the initial encounter all the way to Earth, and despite being heavily damaged when we first see it on screen it still took an additional two hits to disable it completely. Meanwhile the Cube was shown taking out other ships in the fleet with a single shot. As Riker said, it was a "tough little ship".

Not to downplay the Defiant's contribution, but its not clear how long it had been engaged. Its been an impressive ship itself, seen to fight off larger numbers and larger ships on more than one occasion. Its the treatment I think the E-E should have gotten in the movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4DCOpG1oNE

The impressive thing to me is that the bridge crew didn't even seem to be breaking a sweat despite taking two hits, that as you noted, were taking out other ships in the fleet. It wouldn't even have spilled a full cup of Picard's Earl Grey tea had he been drinking it. You got the impression that it could stand toe to toe with the Cube far longer than its predecessor could should that have been neccessary.