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BabelHuber wrote:DS9 is not located in Federation space. I recall her doing business outside of the Federation, but I do not remember an episode where she flies into the Federation. But I'm not sure about this.

But DS9 itself IS Federation territory. Its run by a Starfleet commander, most of the major personnel and staff are starfleet officers, most of the equipment like the runabouts was supplied by Starfleet, its armed with Starfleet weapons for defense, and it even has the Defiant, Starfleet's first commissioned warship in a century or more, stationed there for added defense. Effectively, once you step inside the station you are on Federation soil, much like you would be at an embassy or military base.

But in the end it does not matter. It seems unlikely that Kasidy does trade within the Federation, since the Federation seems to be rather communist money-wise.

All we have are the words of Gene Roddenberry on that, even though scripts that he wrote or edited for TNG, including the pilot episode, featured transactions in credits; and the man's understanding of economic theories and finance is frankly suspect. Like I said before, even the Soviet Union had Rubles as its official currency. Monetary policy is not the defining aspect of communism. Central planning of the economy is, and as I showed on the first page that doesn't require giving up on money. A gradual introduction of more and more socialist institutions has the same end result.

I think the evidence for Credits being a currency is strong enough in TNG that all this ad hoc handwringing over DS9 in an attempt to elevate Roddenberry's word over the events actually depicted onscreen is pointless. Other governments treat Federation credits seriously enough to let them bid against Ferengi latinum on the rights to use a wormhole; the only other interpretation of that event that makes sense is that the noble and virtuous Captain Picard... lied his ass off to another planetary government. Yeah, sorry, I'm not buying that.

DS9 was still, technically, considered sovereign territory of Bajor, and the Bajorans were not in the Federation as of the series. From Memory Alpha:

Following the Cardassian retreat, the Bajoran Provisional Government petitioned for Federation membership, and also for Starfleet assistance in repairing and maintaining Terok Nor. A complex arrangement was established, in which a Starfleet officer would have overall authority in running the station, while the station remained sovereign Bajoran territory. A representative of the Bajoran Militia would serve as the station's first officer and as liaison to the Bajoran government. The station was renamed "Deep Space 9", and Benjamin Sisko was appointed as commander, at Admiral Leyton's recommendation. (DS9: "Emissary", "Homefront")

I believe that was shown during the Bajoran Circle's coup arc, where they requested the Federation leave DS9 and Starfleet complied (although Sisko, being Siko, stayed behind). So it's sort of semi-Federation while being Officially Bajoran.

RogueIce wrote:DS9 was still, technically, considered sovereign territory of Bajor, and the Bajorans were not in the Federation as of the series. From Memory Alpha:

Following the Cardassian retreat, the Bajoran Provisional Government petitioned for Federation membership, and also for Starfleet assistance in repairing and maintaining Terok Nor. A complex arrangement was established, in which a Starfleet officer would have overall authority in running the station, while the station remained sovereign Bajoran territory. A representative of the Bajoran Militia would serve as the station's first officer and as liaison to the Bajoran government. The station was renamed "Deep Space 9", and Benjamin Sisko was appointed as commander, at Admiral Leyton's recommendation. (DS9: "Emissary", "Homefront")

I believe that was shown during the Bajoran Circle's coup arc, where they requested the Federation leave DS9 and Starfleet complied (although Sisko, being Siko, stayed behind). So it's sort of semi-Federation while being Officially Bajoran.

IIRC "Emissary" makes this explicit, I believe in the scene about ten minutes in where Kira is bitching about having a Starfleet officer for a boss. Politically DS9 is Bajoran-owned, Starfleet just runs the place.

The episode "Dax" backed that up; the aliens trying to put Dax on trial had to accept a hearing because Bajor had no extradition agreement.

Emissary:

Quark: How can I possibly run my establishment under Starfleet rules of conduct?
Sisko: This is still a Bajoran Station. We're just here to administrate. You run honest games, you wont have any problems from me.


Call to Arms:

Kira: As a major in the Bajoran Militia, I must officially protest Starfleet's refusal to hand the station over to us
Sisko: Your protest is duly noted.



[later]

Kira: The Dominion fleet is regrouping. And I'm detecting another wave of enemy ships entering Bajoran Space. [emphasis mine]



Even up to the end of season 5, it's a Bajoran station and, to my knowledge, continues to be so up until the end of the series, including the space surrounding it (DS9: Season 4: Sons of Mogh). Bajoran space, Bajoran station.

So, while Deep Space Nine is a Bajoran station, no matter what Dukat says, Starfleet personnel get enough pay to pay their bar tab for non-Federation currencies, or have some sort of embassy or station for converter. And Kasidy Yates seems Federation enough to have family on Federation colonies, and be imprisoned by Federation courts, but does cargo runs and owns her own ship.

However, I actually re-watched "Family Business" earlier this week, and looking at Memory Alpha, I was able to find some things. She mentions that the ship she has, the Xhosa, can't transport 'unstable biomatter' because of outdated transporters, and instead has to be loaded by hand onto the ship.which is due to her working for the Petarians, who only gave her Mark V transporters instead of Mark VIIs. This makes it seem as if the ship itself or ship parts are supplied by the Petarians to her.

However, later on, Kasidy is working for the Bajorans, but still has the Xhosa. So either the ship was part of the deal, or she was just under contract to the Petarians for some parts, or they loaned out some equipment for the freight and took it back once the contract was over.

Also, Kasidy seems to be businesslike, as she owns her own company. So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens, or there are companies in Federation space that chart cargo, freight and passengers for profit. They just aren't a crazy obsessed money society like the Ferengi are.

Wasn't the ship Montgomery Scott was in a cruise ship? I believe it was the TNG ep. "Relics".

Enigma wrote:Wasn't the ship Montgomery Scott was in a cruise ship? I believe it was the TNG ep. "Relics".

It wasn't a cruise ship - some sort of shuttle or transport that was taking him and some others to a retirement colony. I don't know if it was just pleasantries at the end, but Picard said something to the effect of "since you had to sacrifice YOUR ship to save us, I thought it only fitting to give you one of ours as a thank you".

FaxModem1 wrote:So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens

Wasn't she in Federation space at the time? And breaking Federation laws. So why wouldn't they arrest her, even if she wasn't a citizen?

biostem wrote:

Enigma wrote:Wasn't the ship Montgomery Scott was in a cruise ship? I believe it was the TNG ep. "Relics".

It wasn't a cruise ship - some sort of shuttle or transport that was taking him and some others to a retirement colony. I don't know if it was just pleasantries at the end, but Picard said something to the effect of "since you had to sacrifice YOUR ship to save us, I thought it only fitting to give you one of ours as a thank you".

Ah ok. I was thinking of the novelization of that ep.

Nope, it was either Bajoran space, who have no problem with the Maquis, or the DMZ, in which case it belonged to the Cardassians. Unless the UFP got to keep that part of it, and the Maquis are stupid enough to have multiple redevous in Federation space.

Why wouldn't they? Better than being in Cardassian space if you get caught, realistically.

EDIT: The Maquis themselves might not care, but I'd imagine whatever independent smugglers they worked with would prefer Federation justice over Cardassian capture.

Fair Point, but it could also be neutral or Cardassian space. Anyway, the point is, it's probable that Kasidy is Federation, she has family on Cestus III after all, which by now is Federation space, trades in Federation space, and nothing, besides engaging in Maquis activity and dating Sisko, differentiates her from any other freighter captain. Unless we're seriously considering that every transport, freighter and passenger ship in the Federation is actually from expatriates who went outside of the Federation just to get a ship to do business.

Maybe she isn't a Federation citizen, but the Federation fancies itself Alpha Quadrant Space Patrol, much like America considers itself to be the world police force. They decided to arrest her on whatever charges and any governments that would have a say in it either didn't care enough to make waves over someone so insignificant or didn't dare provoke the ire of someone with the Federation's influence.


Just some wild-ass speculation based on nothing beyond the thought that the Federation may be a busy-body with an inflated opinion of itself.

That doesn't really seem like the Federation's MO, what with their whole Prime Directive and Non-interference with anybody not in their space.

The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.

Broomstick wrote:The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilizations.

No it doesn't. Janeway specifically wouldn't give stuff to the Kazon because of it.

Also, it isn't explicitly stated, but the Federation seemed pretty intent on non interference with the Bajoran occupation and the Klingon Civil War.

FaxModem1 wrote:So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens, or there are companies in Federation space that chart cargo, freight and passengers for profit. They just aren't a crazy obsessed money society like the Ferengi are.

The Federation really is a "moneyless" society...

DS9 In the Cards wrote:NOG: It's my money, Jake. If you want to bid at this auction, use your own money.
JAKE SISKO: I'm Human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
JAKE: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity.
NOG: What does that mean exactly?
JAKE: It means... it means we don't need money.
NOG: Well if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine.

That doesn't mean that there aren't people in the Federation who still seek ways to profit -- they just can't do it "within the system".

Ted C wrote:

FaxModem1 wrote:So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens, or there are companies in Federation space that chart cargo, freight and passengers for profit. They just aren't a crazy obsessed money society like the Ferengi are.

The Federation really is a "moneyless" society... *SNIPPED WITH GREAT PREJUDICE*

Please, by all means show us how this is reconcilable with the evidence from TNG that this is in fact wrong on all accounts. Please show me an alternative interpretation to the events in "The Price" that doesn't either involve the Federation having some sort of currency for the purpose of, at the very least, paying other governments, or alternatively have Picard deceiving a planetary government. Please, explain that to me. I really hate seeing the same claims trotted out again and again when the evidence is in this very thread that you are wrong.

Nog and Jake are by no means authoritative on the subject of Federation economics. The simple fact is that Jake is the son of a Starfleet officer, and grew up surrounded by Federation propaganda. Nog on the other hand is a young Ferengi who grew up surrounded by Ferengi propaganda, which is in turn informed almost entirely by encounters with Starfleet officers like Picard.... who are contractually obliged to spew Federation propaganda left and right, as seen in the first two seasons of TNG. The simple answer to this is, Jake and Nog are full of shit and don't know any better because Jake never got an allowance or a paycheck before this episode aired. Very simple, very parsimonious.

All of this is easily answered: the writers didn't give a fuck to make things consistent, so the things presented in canon are often mutually contradictory.

Yes, we get that, but we're clearly discussing this to try and come up with an in-universe explanation.

In-universe explanation: Q is constantly changing how the Federation works. Because he's an asshole.

Perhaps it's not so much an issue of if money exists, but for what it is used.

Think of all of the neat things you can do with money under capitalism. You can use it to be the king of everything. Perhaps Federation money is a little more like a gift voucher, and perhaps can only be redeemed at Federation Shops or some such?

That would explain the mention of Sisko using "transporter credits" to travel during his academy days. It may also be why the Voyager crew so easily wrapped their heads around the concept of replicator rations, to the point of even gambling with them. Shame we never hear about other "types" of credits (besides the apparently "universal" type they use when dealing with foreigners), as it would actually give their economy something unique and memorable about it.

Formless wrote:That would explain the mention of Sisko using "transporter credits" to travel during his academy days.

I always assumed transporter credits were assigned by the Academy to stop what were essentially uni students from beaming everywhere on whims.

It may also be why the Voyager crew so easily wrapped their heads around the concept of replicator rations, to the point of even gambling with them. Shame we never hear about other "types" of credits (besides the apparently "universal" type they use when dealing with foreigners), as it would actually give their economy something unique and memorable about it.

Presumably future economics don't make for well rated episodic network television.