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Metahive wrote:Bullshit logic fail. If third-world terrorists had the knowledge and resources to bioengineer people at will, why would they even need to resort to suicide bombing? The latter is a desperate attack, borne out of the enormous power disparity between first and third world. In shorter words, suicide bombing is a means, not an end in itself. I frankly find this whole proposal incredibly offensive, tongue in cheek or not.

Why offensive? Other than the gengineering of Humans specifically, what have I accused them of that they haven't verifiably done thousands of times over?

Btw, good point about the "power disparity" thing. These mooks haven't even been able to throw together a "dirty bomb" yet! Rigging a cell phone to serve as a detonator (for a bomb concealed in one of their rectums, or otherwise), is quite a far cry from gengineering Humans.

More realistically, if they did have access to gengineering capability (young Muslim extremists coming to the US as students, keeping their extremism and murderous intent to themselves for the time being, to attend college or otherwise learn advanced skills which they will later weaponize), it'd be FAR easier (tho risking far greater collateral damage to them and the populations they claim to represent) for them to just produce some suped-up anthrax or staph, and release it near an infidel population center.

Never said they wouldn't do something like this. Or come here posing as students to learn what they need to know in order to hurt us (The 9/11 hijackers attended flight school in the US, and infamously were only interested in learning to guide a plane already in the air, not take-off or land safely). Am I being harsh, unfair, or offensive in ascribing a certain moral character to these scum (those actively determined to hurt us even at the cost of their own lives, who just happen to hail disproportionately from a particular religion or area of the world)?

Are you aware universities and flight schools exist outside America?

Stark wrote:Are you aware universities and flight schools exist outside America?

Yes. But quite a few non-Americans choose to come here, for educational purposes specifically.

And if folks like Dubya (and his bioethics appointee, Leon Kass) are kept out of power for awhile, and these silly objections to stem cell research die down (Honestly, if there's no nervous system formed, then it can't think or feel anything, and is entitled to about as much dignity as a toenail clipping!), America could - and should - be THE world leader in biogenetics and related fields (which of course will have both peaceful and military applications).

Interesting side note: jihadi is about the worst thing to call them since it reinforces their religious position. hirabi would make more sense

Darth Mencken wrote: Why offensive? Other than the gengineering of Humans specifically, what have I accused them of that they haven't verifiably done thousands of times over?

Can't you read? I told you it's because you're making a means into an end. If they had carrier groups and attack drones on hand they wouldn't bother with suicide attacks. They would just do the US what the US is currently doing to them, massacre people indiscriminately and comfortably from a 6000 miles away.

Btw, good point about the "power disparity" thing. These mooks haven't even been able to throw together a "dirty bomb" yet! Rigging a cell phone to serve as a detonator (for a bomb concealed in one of their rectums, or otherwise), is quite a far cry from gengineering Humans.

A, sneering condescension from a privileged First-Worlder. Smells like elderberries.

More realistically, if they did have access to gengineering capability (young Muslim extremists coming to the US as students, keeping their extremism and murderous intent to themselves for the time being, to attend college or otherwise learn advanced skills which they will later weaponize), it'd be FAR easier (tho risking far greater collateral damage to them and the populations they claim to represent) for them to just produce some suped-up anthrax or staph, and release it near an infidel population center.

Never said they wouldn't do something like this. Or come here posing as students to learn what they need to know in order to hurt us (The 9/11 hijackers attended flight school in the US, and infamously were only interested in learning to guide a plane already in the air, not take-off or land safely). Am I being harsh, unfair, or offensive in ascribing a certain moral character to these scum (those actively determined to hurt us even at the cost of their own lives, who just happen to hail disproportionately from a particular religion or area of the world)?

O noes, filthy brown-skinned terrorists are covertly stealing our wisdom and knowledge to fuel their Irrational Jihad of Pure Hatred of Mighty Whitey! Better keep all that 3/5ths of a person riff-raff out of our shining utopia on a hill!

Darth Mencken wrote:Am I being harsh, unfair, or offensive in ascribing a certain moral character to these scum (those actively determined to hurt us even at the cost of their own lives, who just happen to hail disproportionately from a particular religion or area of the world)?

Just out of curiosity, without looking this up online, can you tell me honestly where the majority of terrorists (as you define the breed) come from?

Once again 96% of terrorists aren't part of the group you claim them to be! Are you Racist or stupid? (not mutually exclusive).

Metahive wrote:

Darth Mencken wrote: Why offensive? Other than the gengineering of Humans specifically, what have I accused them of that they haven't verifiably done thousands of times over?

Can't you read? I told you it's because you're making a means into an end. If they had carrier groups and attack drones on hand they wouldn't bother with suicide attacks. They would just do the US what the US is currently doing to them, massacre people indiscriminately and comfortably from a 6000 miles away.

Btw, good point about the "power disparity" thing. These mooks haven't even been able to throw together a "dirty bomb" yet! Rigging a cell phone to serve as a detonator (for a bomb concealed in one of their rectums, or otherwise), is quite a far cry from gengineering Humans.

A, sneering condescension from a privileged First-Worlder. Smells like elderberries.

More realistically, if they did have access to gengineering capability (young Muslim extremists coming to the US as students, keeping their extremism and murderous intent to themselves for the time being, to attend college or otherwise learn advanced skills which they will later weaponize), it'd be FAR easier (tho risking far greater collateral damage to them and the populations they claim to represent) for them to just produce some suped-up anthrax or staph, and release it near an infidel population center.

Never said they wouldn't do something like this. Or come here posing as students to learn what they need to know in order to hurt us (The 9/11 hijackers attended flight school in the US, and infamously were only interested in learning to guide a plane already in the air, not take-off or land safely). Am I being harsh, unfair, or offensive in ascribing a certain moral character to these scum (those actively determined to hurt us even at the cost of their own lives, who just happen to hail disproportionately from a particular religion or area of the world)?

O noes, filthy brown-skinned terrorists are covertly stealing our wisdom and knowledge to fuel their Irrational Jihad of Pure Hatred of Mighty Whitey! Better keep all that 3/5ths of a person riff-raff out of our shining utopia on a hill!

Dude, at what point did I even HINT about skin color?!? It's their intent, and easy acceptance, of committing mass murder just to shake people up, out of sheer spite, that makes them scum. Their religion (and even moreso, their ethnicity) is beside the point.

Dr Roberts wrote:Once again 96% of terrorists aren't part of the group you claim them to be! Are you Racist or stupid? (not mutually exclusive).

Erm, most of the ones harrassing us, and our friend Israel, in recent history happen to be Muslim. At least most of those mentioned on the news (TV, Internet, newspapers). I'm not being any more biased than these sources.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:

Darth Mencken wrote:Am I being harsh, unfair, or offensive in ascribing a certain moral character to these scum (those actively determined to hurt us even at the cost of their own lives, who just happen to hail disproportionately from a particular religion or area of the world)?

Just out of curiosity, without looking this up online, can you tell me honestly where the majority of terrorists (as you define the breed) come from?

IIRC, 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudis (tho they may or may not have all identified with the Wahabbi brand of Islam which is the official state religion there - Osama Bin Laden detested the Saudi rulership for being too accomodating of the US and Western infidels in general).

Most of the attackers (suicide and otherwise) harrassing Israel are Palestinian (tho a few may come from outside because they identify with the Palestinians and their cause).

The fratricidal warfare in Iraq is mostly Iraqis vs. Iraqis (tho as with the Palestinian example, a few fighters and suicide attackers may be coming in from outside because they identify with one local faction or another).

Whole generations of young Iranians have been brought up being taught to chant, "Death to America, Death to Israel." It's plausible some of them have become terrorists (suicide attackers/bombers, and otherwise).

Just off the top of my head. They don't all come from one small locality. But predominantly from the area usually called "the Middle East," however that term was arrived at and agreed upon. And tho they have their differences (which they sometimes fight and kill each other over), they mostly subscribe to some variation of a particular major world religion.

Yes, there are non-Muslim, non-Middle Eastern terrorists (including suicide attackers). And these have indeed committed their share of atrocities. But those I described above are the ones mainly bedeviling US right now and in the recent past. True or false?

I just want you to know that every time you say 'us' and 'them' it gets a laugh. Not the giggles we get from 'our friend Israel', but close.

Its kind of sweet how you openly admit you have no idea beyond what the news tells you and then dare other people to educate you, though. Have you considered the people 'bedevilling' your country are those who are being most bothered by it? Maybe its not that those dastardly muslims are genetically modified to explode, but rather the tragic result of hundreds of years of political and ethnic history! Who can tell?

Darth Mencken wrote: Actually, being a Jihadi (broad sense - Current genetically-unmodified Humans who do this), IS considered something to be proud of by many (if not everyone) in the culture explicitly indicated to be where the Homo Jihadi hail from in the story. A real, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" situation here.

Waging Jihad (holy war, VERY often interpreted currently as involving violence, with the individual's physical survival being given VERY low priority at best) is being pushed as a religious obligation (by numerous mullahs and other Islamic religious authorities, and governments who identify with such) in nations where current Jihadi (again, ordinary Human ones, for now) mostly hail from.

Is being a soldier a noble profession?
Do you actually understand how they recruit Jihadist in the Middle East actually? A call to Jihad is a call to action, but the motivations behind it, from interviews and etc show that their response is that they're willing to die to DEFEND Islam and other Muslims. Or erradicate a threat to orthodoxy.

The motivation, that doing so is a holy obligation and the rewards of martyrdom doesn't mean that the trigger didn't exist.

And not all, but a non-trivial number of current Jihadi do indeed secret explosives on (or inside) their persons, with the intent of sacrificing their own lives in order to slay "infidels" (including members of Muslim sects other than the suicide attacker's own - Sunni vs. Shiite is QUITE common), and shake others up. One thing I'll admit, whether suicide attackers are gengineered or not, when life is considered so disposable all around (i.e. Two or more sects or other groups using suicide attacks against each other), seems it would make one think, "Huh, so what if they blow up a few of our Jihadi before they get sent out on a mission?"

So calling genmodded Human suicide bombers who hail from this culture, "Homo Jihadi," makes obvious sense, and may even be taken as flattery by said Homo Jihadi and their makers.

There's a major problem though. What makes you think Sunni on Shiite violence are jihadists? Sure, there are calls for jihads that tolerated, indeed, incited violence against fellow muslims(there's was one in Algeria) but I'm not aware of any clerical, rogue/minor or not declearing Jihad on other Muslim sects in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Ever thought the ones harrasing Israel are doing it because Israel occupies Palestine and it's is therefore a coincidence it is not "us".

Darth Mencken wrote: Just off the top of my head. They don't all come from one small locality. But predominantly from the area usually called "the Middle East," however that term was arrived at and agreed upon. And tho they have their differences (which they sometimes fight and kill each other over), they mostly subscribe to some variation of a particular major world religion.

What about Afghanistan? Pakistan? The Philippines (there are U.S. forces there, you know)?

Darth Mencken wrote: Yes, there are non-Muslim, non-Middle Eastern terrorists (including suicide attackers). And these have indeed committed their share of atrocities. But those I described above are the ones mainly bedeviling US right now and in the recent past. True or false?

Okay, but why is this particular subset of terrorists/suicide attackers "bedeviling" the U.S.? Can you think of a reason why this group has targeted the U.S. disproportionately in the past decade, and why it is a relatively recent phenomenon?

Stark wrote:I just want you to know that every time you say 'us' and 'them' it gets a laugh. Not the giggles we get from 'our friend Israel', but close.

Its kind of sweet how you openly admit you have no idea beyond what the news tells you and then dare other people to educate you, though. Have you considered the people 'bedevilling' your country are those who are being most bothered by it? Maybe its not that those dastardly muslims are genetically modified to explode, but rather the tragic result of hundreds of years of political and ethnic history! Who can tell?

So, I should just dismiss most if not all news as BS (TV, radio, Internet, books I read, newspapers like the NYT, magazines like Time and Newsweek, and occasionally Foreign Policy), and believe that "those dastardly Muslims" are good guys, who have truly benign motives (not just killing people just to make others despair and feel insecure), and that any misdeeds attributed to them are accidental, slanderous, and/or actually justified?

And yes, "our friend" Israel does find itself in more than its share of trouble. What with being surrounded on at least 3 out of 4 sides (with the 4th being the Mediterranean Sea) by much more populous nations in each of which a large fraction of the populace (and usually the government of said country) consider it a religious obligation to hate Israel's guts (and the US's - Guilt by association), actually refusing to show Israel (a modern nation now for some 64 years) on their maps, and producing children's shows (one showing blatant rip-offs of Mickey Mouse, and Bugs Bunny also I believe) which impress on kids that Israel is evil and should be destroyed, and that being a suicide bomber is a vocation kids should pursue later in life.

Well, where the heck else is Israel gonna go? They tried for quite awhile just living among peoples in other nations. Sometimes it went well. And sometimes . . . The words "Never again!" simply can't mean as much to some folks as to others!

And for all the trouble "our friend" Israel finds themself in, basically constantly, would any of their neighbors be better US/Western allies?

Well, where am I mistaken?

Btw, I do plan on checking with my cable company, and seeing if I can get "Al-Jazeera America." Just to balance off the admittedly biased news I get from the likes of CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and various newspapers, magazines, books, and online sources. Al-Jazeera America can't be so bad, considering Al Gore recently sold his "Current TV" network to them.

PainRack wrote:

Darth Mencken wrote: Actually, being a Jihadi (broad sense - Current genetically-unmodified Humans who do this), IS considered something to be proud of by many (if not everyone) in the culture explicitly indicated to be where the Homo Jihadi hail from in the story. A real, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" situation here.

Waging Jihad (holy war, VERY often interpreted currently as involving violence, with the individual's physical survival being given VERY low priority at best) is being pushed as a religious obligation (by numerous mullahs and other Islamic religious authorities, and governments who identify with such) in nations where current Jihadi (again, ordinary Human ones, for now) mostly hail from.

Is being a soldier a noble profession?
Do you actually understand how they recruit Jihadist in the Middle East actually? A call to Jihad is a call to action, but the motivations behind it, from interviews and etc show that their response is that they're willing to die to DEFEND Islam and other Muslims. Or erradicate a threat to orthodoxy.

The motivation, that doing so is a holy obligation and the rewards of martyrdom doesn't mean that the trigger didn't exist.

And not all, but a non-trivial number of current Jihadi do indeed secret explosives on (or inside) their persons, with the intent of sacrificing their own lives in order to slay "infidels" (including members of Muslim sects other than the suicide attacker's own - Sunni vs. Shiite is QUITE common), and shake others up. One thing I'll admit, whether suicide attackers are gengineered or not, when life is considered so disposable all around (i.e. Two or more sects or other groups using suicide attacks against each other), seems it would make one think, "Huh, so what if they blow up a few of our Jihadi before they get sent out on a mission?"

So calling genmodded Human suicide bombers who hail from this culture, "Homo Jihadi," makes obvious sense, and may even be taken as flattery by said Homo Jihadi and their makers.

There's a major problem though. What makes you think Sunni on Shiite violence are jihadists? Sure, there are calls for jihads that tolerated, indeed, incited violence against fellow muslims(there's was one in Algeria) but I'm not aware of any clerical, rogue/minor or not declearing Jihad on other Muslim sects in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Whether being a soldier is a noble profession (Almost any society that has ever practiced war, did hold their warriors in some high regard), depends alot on who/what one is fighting for. A soldier for Saddam Hussein's Iraq, or for the Khmer Rouge, is a bit different from those who landed at Normany around 70 years ago. Yes, all killed, and were killed in great numbers. There was terrible violence on all sides in each case. But, would you say they were all morally equivalent and exactly as honorable?

And okay, sorry if I applied the term "Jihadi" too broadly.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:

Darth Mencken wrote: Just off the top of my head. They don't all come from one small locality. But predominantly from the area usually called "the Middle East," however that term was arrived at and agreed upon. And tho they have their differences (which they sometimes fight and kill each other over), they mostly subscribe to some variation of a particular major world religion.

What about Afghanistan? Pakistan? The Philippines (there are U.S. forces there, you know)?

Darth Mencken wrote: Yes, there are non-Muslim, non-Middle Eastern terrorists (including suicide attackers). And these have indeed committed their share of atrocities. But those I described above are the ones mainly bedeviling US right now and in the recent past. True or false?

Okay, but why is this particular subset of terrorists/suicide attackers "bedeviling" the U.S.? Can you think of a reason why this group has targeted the U.S. disproportionately in the past decade, and why it is a relatively recent phenomenon?

Yes, in the last decade or so the US has blundered into two predominantly Muslim countries (Afganistan and Iraq - One at least semi-justified at the time; The other should honestly land members of a certain former Administration before the Hague!).

In any case, this particular subset of terrorists/suicide attackers did not just start bedeviling the US in the last decade. There were at least a few hostage-takings, airline and ship hijackings, and unarmed American and other Western civilians purposely targeted and killed, in at least the 2 or 3 decades prior.

Disgrace to Mencken wrote:So, I should just dismiss most if not all news as BS (TV, radio, Internet, books I read, newspapers like the NYT, magazines like Time and Newsweek, and occasionally Foreign Policy), and believe that "those dastardly Muslims" are good guys, who have truly benign motives (not just killing people just to make others despair and feel insecure), and that any misdeeds attributed to them are accidental, slanderous, and/or actually justified?

Even this strawman is more sane than your current position. Do you honestly think that anybody could "kill just to make others despair"? Just how deluded are you, and just how much propaganda have you swallowed over the years to think it is possible for such a man to exist?

Newsflash, shithead. There is a thing called 'dehumanization', which chieftains have been selling to their subjects for thousands of years. It is used against a foreign person or people, so your subjects will be hardened against them, learn not to care about their fate, and eventually see them as monsters deserving of extinction. It has been a staple of politics since the dawn of time. And you, like morons since the dawn of time, are buying into it. Go on, deny it.

But Dr Trainwreck, surely you cannot deny that the Saracen congenitally hates America for its freedom?

Eleas wrote:But Dr Trainwreck, surely you cannot deny that the Saracen congenitally hates America for its freedom?

You certainly can't say otherwise if even a single individual does something to 'us' 'we' don't like. Not judging a huge and varied population based on the actions of a minority is crazy!

And before you say anything these situations were NEVER started or made worse by the CIA. It's all the fault of foreigners I can conveniently group together as enemies.

Stark wrote:And before you say anything these situations were NEVER started or made worse by the CIA. It's all the fault of foreigners I can conveniently group together as enemies.

Silence, Stark. By referring to proof of the US having done something bad and reminding people of past atrocities, you willfully aid and abet the Enemy. In threatening the lives of every marine serving and yet unborn, you have compromised the integrity of American soil. I hope you can live with yourself.

Eleas wrote:But Dr Trainwreck, surely you cannot deny that the Saracen congenitally hates America for its freedom?

I cannot, but I despair. Who, pray tell, shall be the shield of Christendom against the infidel? Murrica tried, but their last leader was a moron and their current leader is black so I can't like him. Russia is full of communists and Europeans are limp-wristed liberals. And atheists to boot! Wherever my gaze turns I see people pointing at me and laughing, but how can they call me a dunce since I am a true culture warrior? This is all so confusing.

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:

Disgrace to Mencken wrote:So, I should just dismiss most if not all news as BS (TV, radio, Internet, books I read, newspapers like the NYT, magazines like Time and Newsweek, and occasionally Foreign Policy), and believe that "those dastardly Muslims" are good guys, who have truly benign motives (not just killing people just to make others despair and feel insecure), and that any misdeeds attributed to them are accidental, slanderous, and/or actually justified?

Even this strawman is more sane than your current position. Do you honestly think that anybody could "kill just to make others despair"? Just how deluded are you, and just how much propaganda have you swallowed over the years to think it is possible for such a man to exist?

Newsflash, shithead. There is a thing called 'dehumanization', which chieftains have been selling to their subjects for thousands of years. It is used against a foreign person or people, so your subjects will be hardened against them, learn not to care about their fate, and eventually see them as monsters deserving of extinction. It has been a staple of politics since the dawn of time. And you, like morons since the dawn of time, are buying into it. Go on, deny it.

So tell me, how do they actually think? If I'm wrong as you say, tell me what is right!

Terrorists tend to have motives and goals beyond making people feel bad; sadism doesn't really lend it self to inspiring suicide missions.

The IRA wanted Northern Ireland separate from the UK. The Tamil Tigers wanted an independent Tamil state. Terrorists in Palestine want to end Israel's encroachment into Palestine. The insurgency in Iraq had various goals including the removal of US troops or the changing of the government of Iraq. All of these are gross simplifications but they can give you at least a start into understanding terrorism. Do you seriously think it's done solely to produce fear with no goal beyond that?

Darth Mencken wrote:So tell me, how do they actually think? If I'm wrong as you say, tell me what is right!

This is perfect. You don't ever need to post again - you have reached the pure apex.