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Well yeah, I didn't mean to imply that death doesn't exist in a balanced Force or anything like that. I just was using the Yin/Yang comparison based on the terms people use to describe the Force, I guess it wasn't a good example but overall we seem to be in agreement.

The Jedi use the Force in balance.
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."

The Sith seek absolute control over the Force seeking to not only cheat death completely, but create life itself.

I think the issue is pretty self explanatory.

TheSpaceman? wrote:I could be wrong, but I get the sense that Lucas' vision of the Force isn't a Yin/Yang type of thing where the Dark Side and the "Light" side balance each other out

Actually, it is.

Tiriol wrote:It is possible that he originally imagined the light side (which is never mentioned in any movie, though) and the dark side are just two sides of the same coin, but nowadays he seems to be pretty certain that there is the Force and that there is the dark side

Lucas' vision of the Force as a yin-yang duality has not changed, if AOTC ( where a yin-yang symbol appears in the clouds ) and TCW's Mortis arc ( "too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it" ) are any indication.

TheSpaceman? wrote:To go back to the Yin/Yang comparison, I would almost say a "balanced" Force seems to be how Yang solely is represented.

That's not very balanced.

For fucks sake the ENTIRE POINT of the the OT and the PT later, is the destruction of the Sith. Obviously a ying-yang balance is not what the Force wants despite whatever Lucas says.

If the whole 'destiny' thing happened just to show the Jedi that they were wrong when they believed people fallen to the dark side can't be redeemed, that'd be pretty powerful stuff. Anakins destiny was to become the ultimate example of everything the Jedi believed about the Sith - just so he could show them he was still human, and invalidate their beliefs.

That's always been my stance on what Luke represents.

Stark wrote:If the whole 'destiny' thing happened just to show the Jedi that they were wrong when they believed people fallen to the dark side can't be redeemed, that'd be pretty powerful stuff. Anakins destiny was to become the ultimate example of everything the Jedi believed about the Sith - just so he could show them he was still human, and invalidate their beliefs.

If we take the EU into account, many Jedi did believe that people who fell to the dark side can be redeemed.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. None if those people shook the orthodoxy. None of those people had Yoda fighting them to the end and dying rather than seeing everything about the way they lived their life become a lie. Magical destiny didnt set the galaxy on fire to throw those people to the pinnacle of fallen evil so they could say 'you were right'. The power of all the trillions of dead and a lost golden age and friends and family and comrades wasn't shrugged off when those people chose love over hate and changed the future.

I mean, even if we don't just say 'fuck the EU'.

Havok wrote:For fucks sake the ENTIRE POINT of the the OT and the PT later, is the destruction of the Sith.

You think? How is that inconsistent with what I'm saying about the Force?

You know, the Force. An energy field. Not a group of Jedi and Sith.

The Force.

Havok wrote:Obviously a ying-yang balance is not what the Force wants despite whatever Lucas says.

Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users. Force-users are not the Force. ( And it's yin, not "ying". )

A yin-yang balance is the desired state of the Force despite whatever you say. Lucas created the Force; you didn't. Lucas made the movies; you didn't. Lucas wrote the scripts; you didn't. Setting yourself up as some kind of authority over Lucas in this context is merely a joke and an exercise in pointless self-aggrandizement.

Oh, sorry I can SEE what is actually shown and said in THE MOVIES and come to the correct conclusions.

ZERO Sith and FIFTEENGAJILLION Jedi is balance.

2 Sith and anything else is no balance.

But hey, why actually go by the fucking movies.

I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants a COMPLIMENTARY set up. The whole shadow without light thing, doesn't hold up to the fact that the Force clearly wants no fucking shadow.

Havok wrote:I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants a COMPLIMENTARY set up. The whole shadow without light thing, doesn't hold up to the fact that the Force clearly wants no fucking shadow.

I think the term "Dark Side" is the problem. It's a cool name for what the bad guys tap into, and immensely evocative, but it suggests the wrong things about the Force.

If the Force is both Life and Death, both Light and Darkness, in balance and harmony, then the Dark Side is Anti-Light. It will use darkness to choke the light, but in the end darkness, too, will be filled by the Anti-Light. It's not coincidental that it's the Sith who use the Force to kill indiscriminately and who pursue immortality and warp living things with Sith Alchemy.

I'm not sure what would be a better name... Disharmony and Imbalance are accurate but not very evocative or interesting. Chaos is not the right word either, because the Sith can and do embrace tyrannical, totalitarian order when it suits them. "Blight", and the Blighted Force, perhaps?

I look at it as a theme of change. Yes the Force doesn't want evil or darkness, but the Jedi of the PT have nothing to compare against, are arrogant and stagnant. If you put them up against evil, they are not that bad, but still not good. So you need a change, enter the one really dark guy who can sweep aside all the stagnant Jedi, now enter the bright shining light who can show the dark guy that the light isn't so bad. It mixes up good v evil, a very basic theme in SW, with a bit of change is a violent and aggressive thing that must be done from time to time, theme.

Havok wrote:ZERO Sith and FIFTEENGAJILLION Jedi is balance.

You're not talking about the balance of the Force, you're talking about a different kind of balance invented by fans, with which the film series does not concern itself at all. The balance of the Force is not any other kind of balance you can think of just because someone used the word "balance". That's not how language works. The "of the Force" part is not something you can just throw out and replace with something else, while acting as if the meaning of the phrase has been preserved. You might as well argue that the balance of the Force is the balance of the pimples on Yoda's ass cheeks or the balance in Hego Damask's bank account.

Force-users are not the Force. Thus the balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users. It does not mean "Jedi/Sith head count".

Havok wrote:But hey, why actually go by the fucking movies.

"Jedi/Sith head count" as a rewrite of the meaning of "balance of the Force" conflicts with TPM and what we are given to understand about ROTJ, but why should that matter? Why actually go by the fucking movies, when it's more fun to rewrite them into an illogical mess?

Havok wrote:I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants a COMPLIMENTARY set up.

Complimentary means:

1. Expressing a compliment; praising or approving.
2. Given or supplied free of charge.

So a complimentary view of the Force would be: "Force, you are the bestest!!!"

Havok wrote:the Force clearly wants no fucking shadow.

No, that's you. It is only clear that you want that.

I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants that. I'll save you the trouble. It doesn't. And in Overlords we are told precisely the opposite.

Lurks-no-More wrote:Disharmony and Imbalance are accurate but not very evocative or interesting.

In the film era, the dark side is thematically linked with the concept of imbalance, because the threat to balance in the film era ( as a result of the Sith ) is the ascendancy of the dark side over the light. However, it does not make sense to generally characterize the dark side as imbalance itself, because the balance is between the light and dark sides.

Arawn Fenn wrote:

Havok wrote:ZERO Sith and FIFTEENGAJILLION Jedi is balance.

You're not talking about the balance of the Force, you're talking about a different kind of balance invented by fans, with which the film series does not concern itself at all. The balance of the Force is not any other kind of balance you can think of just because someone used the word "balance". That's not how language works. The "of the Force" part is not something you can just throw out and replace with something else, while acting as if the meaning of the phrase has been preserved. You might as well argue that the balance of the Force is the balance of the pimples on Yoda's ass cheeks or the balance in Hego Damask's bank account.

Force-users are not the Force. Thus the balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users. It does not mean "Jedi/Sith head count".

First of all you fucking moron, when you cherry pick you miss the point, but I imagine you would anyways.

WHEN THE SITH ARE DRAWING ON THE FORCE THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE, EVEN JUST ONE SITH. THERE CAN BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF JEDI USING THE FORCE AND THE FORCE STAYS IN BALANCE. Are you really this fucking stupid? It has nothing to do with numbers, the point is that the FORCE is created by LIFE not DEATH. The imbalance is the Sith use the Force for death and destruction while the Jedi DO NOT. The Jedi using the Force does not imbalance the Force, the Sith using it does. It doesn't matter about the fucking numbers.

Havok wrote:But hey, why actually go by the fucking movies.

"Jedi/Sith head count" as a rewrite of the meaning of "balance of the Force" conflicts with TPM and what we are given to understand about ROTJ, but why should that matter? Why actually go by the fucking movies, when it's more fun to rewrite them into an illogical mess?

Look dumbfuck. My point is that there can be twenty million Jedi using the Force and THERE WILL NOT BE AN IMBALANCE. There can be just ONE or TWO Sith and there will be. One Sith or TWENTY MILLION, and it is out of balance. Do I need to explain why? Are you REALLY this fucking stupid?

Havok wrote:I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants a COMPLIMENTARY set up.

Complimentary means:

1. Expressing a compliment; praising or approving.
2. Given or supplied free of charge.

So a complimentary view of the Force would be: "Force, you are the bestest!!!"

Oh no I accidentally used an "I" instead of an "E", you have scored nerd points. But since you, I and everyone else knows what I meant, why don't you try to not be a dishonest shitstain and address my point instead of dodging it behind a strained attempt at insulting.

Havok wrote:the Force clearly wants no fucking shadow.

No, that's you. It is only clear that you want that.

Really? So the Force didn't create Anakin to destroy the Sith, as George Lucas, who you have claimed is the absolute final word on what is correct even if it contradicts what is seen on screen, has fucking said? THE SITH ARE THE IMBALANCE. This has been stated unequivocally by Lucas. Lucas also unequivocally killed Palpatine but... wait for it....

I mean, please show me where the Force shows it wants that. I'll save you the trouble. It doesn't. And in Overlords we are told precisely the opposite.

AH so now the EU can overwrite what Lucas has said specifically. So you are either an idiot, a complete liar or have no idea how to form your own thoughts. Lets go with all three.

Lurks-no-More wrote:Disharmony and Imbalance are accurate but not very evocative or interesting.

In the film era, the dark side is thematically linked with the concept of imbalance, because the threat to balance in the film era ( as a result of the Sith ) is the ascendancy of the dark side over the light. However, it does not make sense to generally characterize the dark side as imbalance itself, because the balance is between the light and dark sides.

And again, you actually think there are two sides to the Force. You should be debating on a Spaceballs forum where at least there is actually an up side and down side of the Schwartz and your argument may make sense.

The "dark side" is not a literally thing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Havok wrote:First of all you fucking moron, when you cherry pick you miss the point, but I imagine you would anyways.

You're the one being a fucking moron, but it takes until the end of your post to really explain what your problem is. It's like a last minute plot twist or something. Very cinematic.

Havok wrote:WHEN THE SITH ARE DRAWING ON THE FORCE THE FORCE IS OUT OF BALANCE, EVEN JUST ONE SITH.

Not just any Sith. You're forgetting the period before the Force went out of balance. There were Sith in operation throughout that time.

Havok wrote:Are you really this fucking stupid? It has nothing to do with numbers

I think that was my point. When I say the balance of the Force is not a Jedi/Sith head count, that's me saying it's not a question of totaling up numbers on either side. That's me saying it has nothing to do with numbers. You're the one who responded to the claim that the Force is a yin-yang balance with the statement that the point of the saga is the destruction of the Sith, as though these things are mutually exclusive.

Havok wrote:Look dumbfuck. My point is that there can be twenty million Jedi using the Force and THERE WILL NOT BE AN IMBALANCE. (...) Do I need to explain why?

I already explained why. The balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users. Since it's right there in my posts, acting like you need to explain it isn't exactly credible, is it?

Havok wrote:Really? So the Force didn't create Anakin to destroy the Sith, as George Lucas, who you have claimed is the absolute final word on what is correct even if it contradicts what is seen on screen, has fucking said?

Nice job putting words in my mouth, but when you said "the Force clearly wants no fucking shadow" and rejected the idea that a yin-yang duality is the natural state of the Force, you seemed to be saying that "the Force clearly wants no dark side". So I took "no shadow" to mean "no dark side" as opposed to "no Sith". The Sith and the dark side are not the same thing, so to claim the Force does not want the dark side destroyed is not equivalent to claiming the Force does not want to see the Sith destroyed. I am well aware that the destruction of the Sith in the form of Palpatine is a prerequisite to the restoration of balance to the Force. However, the Force itself is still a yin-yang duality. These concepts are not inconsistent.

Havok wrote:AH so now the EU can overwrite what Lucas has said specifically.

Whatever. So now you're posing as someone who cares what Lucas said about anything? That's pretty funny. I thought your deal was that you ignore Lucas. If you want to call Overlords EU that's your prerogative, but don't forget it comes from a project that has Lucas all over it, and unsurprisingly doesn't conflict with anything he has established about the Force.

Havok wrote:And again, you actually think there are two sides to the Force.

Ah, so much for the illusion of caring about "what Lucas has said". It died so young. I told myself I wouldn't cry...

Havok wrote:The "dark side" is not a literally thing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Did somebody say "dishonest shitstain"? "Literally" is not an adjective, idiot. The dark side is a thing. It gets mentioned on screen in TESB. That's Episode V, not some EU book you can easily ignore. Lucas has stated consistently that there are two sides to the Force, including being quoted in the media and during preproduction story meetings. It has always been that way since as early as 1975. You're just throwing out his version of the Force and replacing it with your own.

I DON'T care about what Lucas says you fucking idiot. I care about what the MOVIES say.

THE "DARKSIDE" IS NOT A THING. My gawd you are fucking thick.

Yoda: "Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

Are you so stupid that you don't realize or can't figure out that the "Darkside" is just a metaphor for being a dick with the Force? I mean seriously? Yoda with the first and only description of the "dark side" straight out fucking says it is just negative emotions used to draw on the Force.

Luke: "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?"
Yoda: "You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack."

Yoda never says to Luke, "use the light side of the Force!!" He says "use the Force, and here are the emotions and feelings you need to be focusing on when you do so, because if you are all pissed off and angry those emotions will consume you because that's the easy way." But hey, why figure out what the Force is from the movies when we can listen to DVD commentary by the guy that keeps changing his mind on what everything is instead of, you know, that crazy thing the kids are doing called thinking for your fucking self.

The Force is the Force. It has no dark side or light side. Just like a gun has no good or bad in it. It is user intent and usage that defines whether it is "good" or "bad" or "light" or "dark".

Balance in the context that Yoda, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan describe the Force in means no fucking assholes trying to control it and using it to kill people. It is balance in the way that Obi-Wan describes it in the first fucking movie.

Obi-Wan: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."
Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?"
Obi-Wan: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

Holy shit! The Jedi use the Force in balance? Unbelievable!

Dude even Palpatine and Vader constantly tell you what the "Dark Side" is... "I can feel your anger." "I can feel your anger. It give you focus... makes you stronger." "Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you." "In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible." "Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

Hav, for years some people have believed there is actual white mana and red mana that power each type of FORCE POWER. You're talking to a brick wall.

Havok wrote:I DON'T care about what Lucas says you fucking idiot.

"AH so now the EU can overwrite what Lucas has said specifically."

Havok wrote:I care about what the MOVIES say.

THE "DARKSIDE" IS NOT A THING.

The dark side is a thing in the movies. Read Lucas' original scripts. Read sources like the Annotated Screenplays and the Making of TESB. Lucas' concept of the Force is an external duality and this was made clear during the production of the OT.

Havok wrote:Are you so stupid that you don't realize or can't figure out that the "Darkside" is just a metaphor for being a dick with the Force?

Are you so stupid that you think Luke needs to ask Yoda how not to be a dick? Did you ever notice that your Force revisionism makes Luke into a retard?

"The dark side is growing." - AOTC script

Havok wrote:when we can listen to DVD commentary by the guy that keeps changing his mind on what everything is

So you noticed that he changed his mind about how many movies he wanted to make? Good for you. That doesn't mean he changed his mind about how many sides the Force has. Feel free to speculate and keep your fingers crossed, though. It could still happen!

Havok wrote:instead of, you know, that crazy thing the kids are doing called thinking for your fucking self.

It's called rewriting the plot. All the cool kids are doing it!

Havok wrote:The Force is the Force.

Thank you, Mr.Ed. Look out, there's a carrot headed for your butt!

Havok wrote:It has no dark side or light side.

Lucas and the OT say that it does. Let me sketch out Lucas' cunning plan for you. He thought that if he had characters talk about the sides of the Force the viewers would get the idea that the Force had dark and light sides. He was wrong.

Havok wrote:Just like a gun has no good or bad in it.

But it has component parts, like pretty much anything. Why exactly is the Force, unlike other things, unable to be subdivided? Because you say so?

Havok wrote:It is user intent and usage that defines whether it is "good" or "bad" or "light" or "dark".

I'm talking about the sides of the Force, not what is "good" or "bad". A discussion about classifying behavior sure is entertaining, but the Force is an energy field, not categories of behavior. What is "dark" is using the dark side of the Force.

Havok wrote:It is balance in the way that Obi-Wan describes it in the first fucking movie.

The balance of the Force wasn't mentioned in the first fucking movie. The word didn't even appear. Don't be full of shit.

Havok wrote:The Jedi use the Force in balance?

The balance of the Force is not any other kind of balance you can think of. It is not an individual's balance of Force use. It is a condition of the Force itself, the balance between the sides of the Force.
It is not something that goes out of whack every time someone uses the Force in an un-Jedi-like way. What we know of the history of the era preceding the films demonstrates this. Even though some believed them extinct, there were Sith in existence carrying on the Banite lineage during an extensive period before the Force went out of balance.

Havok wrote:Yoda never says to Luke, "use the light side of the Force!!"

But we do hear "use the dark side of the Force" in the films. Which doesn't make sense due to redundancy if in fact the dark side is really use of the Force as revisionists allege.

Arawn Fenn wrote:

Havok wrote:I DON'T care about what Lucas says you fucking idiot.

"AH so now the EU can overwrite what Lucas has said specifically."

Are you really this fucking retarded? If you wouldn't completely hack up my posts and you had some reading comprehension you would know that I was talking about YOU in that you fucking moron. In one post you talk about Lucas as the absolute authority then in others you site EU bullshit as to what the Force is. I go by the movies and that is it.

Havok wrote:I care about what the MOVIES say.

THE "DARKSIDE" IS NOT A THING.

The dark side is a thing in the movies. Read Lucas' original scripts. Read sources like the Annotated Screenplays and the Making of TESB. Lucas' concept of the Force is an external duality and this was made clear during the production of the OT.

I don't have to read the scripts or any other extraneous sources, I can watch the fucking movies dumbass. Author intent has no bearing on what we actually see on screen. The Force exists as a neutral entity. HOW YOU USE IT DETERMINES IF YOU ARE ON THE "DARKSIDE". You are really just this stupid.

Havok wrote:Are you so stupid that you don't realize or can't figure out that the "Darkside" is just a metaphor for being a dick with the Force?

Are you so stupid that you think Luke needs to ask Yoda how not to be a dick? Did you ever notice that your Force revisionism makes Luke into a retard?

Hahahahaha you mean because Luke is a model of self control? I'm starting to actually feel bad realizing that you are this dumb. Anakin was a FULLY TRAINED JEDI and he still turned to evil as Obi-Wan says in the first movie, but yeah, Luke should just know exactly how to not repeat the mistakes of his father.
You realize that Luke starts off as an ignorant farm boy and the OT showcases his journey and growth and path to becoming the Jedi and he is supposed to start off not knowing anything? Of course not. You are an idiot.

"The dark side is growing." - AOTC script

Uh... yeah. And? How does that help your case in any way? That would mean that half of the Force is getting bigger?

It is amazing that you don't understand hyperbole and metaphors, especially considering the Jedi or Sith don't even know how to properly explain or quantify the Force.

Havok wrote:when we can listen to DVD commentary by the guy that keeps changing his mind on what everything is

So you noticed that he changed his mind about how many movies he wanted to make? Good for you. That doesn't mean he changed his mind about how many sides the Force has. Feel free to speculate and keep your fingers crossed, though. It could still happen!

Oh fucking man... do you honestly think that Lucas means that the Force is like a coin or a wall? On side is bad one side is good? Like I said, you need to go have this argument on a Spaceballs forum so your ideas make sense.

Havok wrote:instead of, you know, that crazy thing the kids are doing called thinking for your fucking self.

It's called rewriting the plot. All the cool kids are doing it!

OK, so please explain how I have rewritten the plot? You have insinuated that is what I am doing, so explain it. Prove it.

Havok wrote:The Force is the Force.

Thank you, Mr.Ed. Look out, there's a carrot headed for your butt!

Havok wrote:It has no dark side or light side.

Lucas and the OT say that it does. Let me sketch out Lucas' cunning plan for you. He thought that if he had characters talk about the sides of the Force the viewers would get the idea that the Force had dark and light sides. He was wrong.

Yeah, sorry, they don't. Just because the characters say "dark side" does not mean there is a literal evil side of the Force. It is idiots like you that think that, and just ignore what they characters say when they are actually EXPLAINING the Force or explicitly stating what the "dark side" is.

Havok wrote:Just like a gun has no good or bad in it.

But it has component parts, like pretty much anything. Why exactly is the Force, unlike other things, unable to be subdivided? Because you say so?

Holy fuck, way to make that leap. You are one of the worst and most shitastically dishonest debaters I have seen on here in ages.
I didn't even presume to comment on the make up of the Force, that would be you dumbfuck, but what I did was give you an example of a real world tool that can be used for good or evil while in of itself, being neither. What would you have said if I said "bat"? "OMG IT IS MADE OF WOOD AND MOLECULES SO IT HAS COMPONENTS!!1!!" The point of the comparison is, again since you are clearly unintelligent, that the Force is a TOOL and it is HOW you use it that determines what "side" you are on.

Havok wrote:It is user intent and usage that defines whether it is "good" or "bad" or "light" or "dark".

I'm talking about the sides of the Force, not what is "good" or "bad". A discussion about classifying behavior sure is entertaining, but the Force is an energy field, not categories of behavior. What is "dark" is using the dark side of the Force.

Holy fucking shit. There is no LITERAL dark side of the Force. You don't channel the "dark side" to power your dark side powers.

Havok wrote:It is balance in the way that Obi-Wan describes it in the first fucking movie.

The balance of the Force wasn't mentioned in the first fucking movie. The word didn't even appear. Don't be full of shit.

Wow, I'm sorry you are so stupid and can't make sense out of words but the quote from the FIRST STAR WARS MOVIE which you so conveniently cut, Obi-Wan describes that the Jedi use the Force in a balanced way. OH NOE HE DIDN'T USE THE WORD BALANCE I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!11!

Havok wrote:The Jedi use the Force in balance?

The balance of the Force is not any other kind of balance you can think of. It is not an individual's balance of Force use. It is a condition of the Force itself, the balance between the sides of the Force.
It is not something that goes out of whack every time someone uses the Force in an un-Jedi-like way. What we know of the history of the era preceding the films demonstrates this. Even though some believed them extinct, there were Sith in existence carrying on the Banite lineage during an extensive period before the Force went out of balance.

Oh hey look the EU is forcing the movies to change to meet it. Haven't seen this one before. Sorry dickwad, but the movies trump any other source.

And hey the Force was obviously out of balance for quite some time since, you know, there was an ancient prophecy about it being restored. Oops, the EU gets it wrong again.

Havok wrote:Yoda never says to Luke, "use the light side of the Force!!"

But we do hear "use the dark side of the Force" in the films. Which doesn't make sense due to redundancy if in fact the dark side is really use of the Force as revisionists allege.

Gawd, you are just a brick wall of fucking stupid.
The Force when used by the Jedi is in balance.
The Force when used by the Sith is out of balance.
And no, we never hear "use the dark side of the Force" you hear "use your aggressive feelings" "let the hate flow" "give into your anger" and shit like that.

What he do hear is "turn to the Dark Side" "power of the Dark Side" "learn to know the Dark Side" and honestly, I can see how someone as dumb as yourself would hear the shiny cool catch phrase and think that the Dark Side hands out membership cards and you go hang out there to get your latest Sith Power, because you are an idiot and unfortunately, so are the people that write the EU. However when you take into account all the other things that Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, Vader say about the dark side you can deduce that it is not a literal thing but merely a term used to describe how one draws on and uses the Force and to what ends.

Here let me try this although I know I am completely wasting my time.

Think of the Force as an engine in a car. Now this engine can run one of two ways. It can be powered by anger and hatred and fear or it can be powered by calmness, peace and passivity.
If it is powered by the former it then it spews out a shroud of dark exhaust that only allows the person driving the car to see past because the exhaust clouds everything else.
If it is powered by the latter it runs clean and smooth and driver and everyone around the car can see and breathe just fine.

Now when you are on the road and you have lots of people driving their Force engine cars it only takes one dickhead to cloud it up for everyone.

Havok wrote:In one post you talk about Lucas as the absolute authority then in others you site EU bullshit as to what the Force is.

Don't be an idiot. Don't you think it's possible that those things are consistent?

Havok wrote:Author intent has no bearing on what we actually see on screen.

So you admit your version of the Force is not what Lucas was trying to get across? You're right, you don't have to read scripts. They will only confirm what you already seem to know.

Havok wrote:The Force exists as a neutral entity.

The Force has sides. They were originally known as halves of the Force.

"As you know, the 'FORCE OF OTHERS' has two halves: Ashla, the good, and Bogan, the paraforce or evil part. Fortunately, Skywalker came to know the good half and was able to resist the paraforce; but he realized that if he taught others the way of the Ashla, some, with less strength, might come to know Bogan, the dark side, and bring unthinkable suffering to the Universe."

Havok wrote:Hahahahaha you mean because Luke is a model of self control?

Hahaha no, your revisions make him look like a simpleton.

Havok wrote:You realize that Luke starts off as an ignorant farm boy and the OT showcases his journey and growth and path to becoming the Jedi

Yay! Story time! Wait, I know this one.

Havok wrote:and he is supposed to start off not knowing anything? Of course not. You are an idiot.

Will this buttmunchery never cease? You think 19-year-old Luke needs a lesson on how not to be a dick? Or the injection of simple reasoning skills? Is he supposed to need other people to tell him what it means to be a bad wittle boy? Notice he's asking how to tell the sides of the Force apart even after he's been told exactly what they are, according to you. Doesn't something about that seem a little strange to you?

Havok wrote:It is amazing that you don't understand hyperbole and metaphors

It doesn't look like I'm the one with the problem understanding. If it was "hyperbole", you're basically only saying it isn't growing as much. You can't use claims of "hyperbole" to go all the way from "growing" to "not growing". If it was a "metaphor", you still have to explain the underlying reality represented by the metaphor. You just need some way to get around it because it contradicts you, but throwing words like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" at it doesn't work.

Havok wrote:Oh fucking man... On side is bad one side is good?

Yes. That is what the movie said. And it was glorious.

Havok wrote:OK, so please explain how I have rewritten the plot? You have insinuated that is what I am doing, so explain it. Prove it.

Havok wrote:Just because the characters say "dark side" does not mean there is a literal evil side of the Force.

Why should you listen to characters anyway? You already don't listen to Lucas. LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA

Havok wrote:The point of the comparison is, again since you are clearly unintelligent, that the Force is a TOOL and it is HOW you use it that determines what "side" you are on.

Because it has components called the light side and dark side. You can't seem to produce any reason why it cannot be subdivided in this way.

Havok wrote:Holy fucking shit. There is no LITERAL dark side of the Force. You don't channel the "dark side" to power your dark side powers.

Yes, you do. I've even seen that wording! Holy fucking Jeebus!!!

Havok wrote:Obi-Wan describes that the Jedi use the Force in a balanced way. OH NOE HE DIDN'T USE THE WORD BALANCE I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!11!

He only used the word partially. That neglects to say anything about the relative percentages involved. OH NOES YOU ONLY WISH HE SAID BALANCE

It's the balance of the Force itself, not the balance of Force use on the part of individuals.

Havok wrote:Oh hey look the EU is forcing the movies to change to meet it. Haven't seen this one before. Sorry dickwad, but the movies trump any other source.

Sorry retard, but the Sith being around before the Force went out of balance is consistent with the backstory implied by the films. Nothing is changed. There's no "trumping" when things are in agreement.

Havok wrote:And hey the Force was obviously out of balance for quite some time since, you know, there was an ancient prophecy about it being restored. Oops, the EU gets it wrong again.

The movies never said when it was written. What did the EU get wrong, your fantasies?

Havok wrote:And no, we never hear "use the dark side of the Force"

Yes we do.

Havok wrote:What he do hear is "turn to the Dark Side" "power of the Dark Side" "learn to know the Dark Side" and honestly, I can see how someone as dumb as yourself would hear the shiny cool catch phrase

Do you not see the irony? Do you not see it? WAHAAHOOOHAHAAA

Havok wrote:unfortunately, so are the people that write the EU.

It's useless to try to pin everything on the EU if the EU in question is consistent with Lucas' intent.

Havok wrote:it only takes one dickhead to cloud it up for everyone.

Sounds about right.

What is so sad about this is that you are totally sitting back thinking you have struck a blow for morons everywhere and you can't even respond to direct questions.

"Prove this point that you have made."
":D"

You are such a fucking tool and so completely wrong and here is why... your version cannot exist without ancillary information from outside the movies while mine ONLY needs the movies. It's too bad you are too stupid to understand that.

These are your statements:
What we see on screen is not what matters, but what is said about the movie by the creator.
Luke is not a simpleton and knows exactly what to do without any help. (I'll let the readers mull this one over for a moment )
Dark side powers are powered by the dark side, therefor lightside powers are powered by the light side. (Is there dark side TK and light side TK? )

As to your shitty, absolutely dishonest debating style you deliberate chop up my responses to make a point which you couldn't otherwise make if you hadn't, you, as mentioned, ignore direct questions, oh and you blatantly lie, not to mention your reading comprehension is absolute crap.

And it's gotten to the point that I can't even answer your responses because they say absolutely nothing.

Arawn, what are your movie sources for there being two different sides of the force with different "agendas" and powers?

Havok wrote:You are such a fucking tool and so completely wrong and here is why... your version cannot exist without ancillary information from outside the movies while mine ONLY needs the movies. It's too bad you are too stupid to understand that.

Cannot exist? My version "only needs the movies" as well. ( Not coincidentally it's also Lucas' version. ) Repeat after me. CON-SIS-TENT. It's too bad that you're too stupid and biased to even consider that. You've already admitted that you don't care about author intent, but author intent dictates what the content in the films was intended to mean. You may have gotten a different impression, but that doesn't mean the version intended by the author automatically goes away and becomes "completely wrong" simply because you're not into it. And if you intend to argue that my position depends on EU, you need to think about that a little more. The first time that position appeared in the EU, whenever that occurred, the author in question had only the movies to go on. We can imagine the author saying: "Mine only needs the movies!"

Havok wrote:Luke is not a simpleton

This is indeed a significant point. That's why it's important to avoid rewriting the sides of the Force in a way that makes Luke a drooling mongoloid.

Havok wrote:Is there dark side TK and light side TK?

Does the existence of powers exclusive to a given side somehow mean that all powers must be exclusive to some side? Didn't we already cover this? Do you care?

Havok wrote:As to your shitty, absolutely dishonest debating style you deliberate chop up my responses to make a point which you couldn't otherwise

Ha ha yeah no.

Havok wrote:oh and you blatantly lie

Examples?

Thanas wrote:Arawn, what are your movie sources for there being two different sides of the force with different "agendas" and powers?

The movie source for there being different sides of the Force is TESB ( though some might say the sides of the Force are implied as soon as the terminology of sides is introduced in ANH ). The 1975 version of the script is also pretty clear on this point but it's not a movie source. The movies do not talk about "agendas" of the sides of the Force. Their having different powers is depicted in the visual language of the films: we never see Jedi using lightning, even though it's not difficult to imagine situations where it would be helpful, and we never see Sith coming back as ghosts, even though we can imagine that they would like to. The reference to "dark side powers" in Lucas' own words appears in the AOTC DVD commentary.

The assumption that it is possible for the dark side to provide unique powers is also central to the seduction of Anakin plotline in ROTS.

Please do elaborate. Because I must have missed the 'The Dark Side can actually save Padme' partrather than that being Paply dangling that in front of Anakin to lure him over, or the bit where it was explicitly said that the Light Side absolutely positively couldn't.