StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Looking at the Kelvin, well I like her. She feels like a much older Starfleet workhorse (and probably is) compared to the new Enterprise and her design is not too stupidly kitbash like while being new at the same time. I wonder if she is the first in her class (making it the Kelvin class). It would be interesting when we get more details to compare her with the Miranda class.

On the window, well out of interest has there been any episodes or films instances where the bridge was the main target?

In Nemesis a shot landed close enough to the bridge it tore a hole in the front of it, one crew member was apparently thrown out of it to his death before an emergency forcefield was activated- window or no window it seems the bridge is vulnerable anyway. Also, in Generations the Klingon gunner is specifically told to target the Bridge of the E-D but couldnt shoot for shit and eventually got a lucky shot on one of the nacelles before they got popped themselves.

I would be figuring that the Bridge is more trouble then its worth due to accuracy problems in the crews or the the idea that you can do more damage and destroy and entire ships by blowing up the warp core.

Bluewolf wrote:On the window, well out of interest has there been any episodes or films instances where the bridge was the main target?

The Klingons were about to try it in Generations, right before they were blown up;

Generations Script wrote:110 INT. KLINGON BIRD OF PREY 110

Lursa and B'Etor in command, savoring their imminent victory.

LURSA
(to Navigator)
Target their Bridge.

B'ETOR
Full disruptors.

The Navigator suddenly reacts to something on his console.

KLINGON HELM We are cloaking!

B'ETOR
What?

KLINGON HELM Mistress- our shields are down!

Of course they had shield-penetrating weapons.

Bluewolf wrote:On the window, well out of interest has there been any episodes or films instances where the bridge was the main target?

The Enterprise tried to blast the Reliant's bridge in TWOK. They didn't hit head-on, but damaged one side of the bridge module, and the resulting internal explosion nailed several of Khan's crew, including Joachim. The planet killer also took out the Constellation's bridge in The Doomsday Machine, though we didn't see that on-screen.

I would think there must be a reason why people don't do more it often. Maybe the bridge is more durable of starships than to get torn off literally.

An image done for one of the Ships of the Line calenders had the bridge dome of the Lexington blown clean off by the M5 computer on the Enterprise, exposing the crew to space. There is also the ENT episode Twilight, in which the same thing happened to NX-01.

EDIT: in SOTL calenders, the de-bridged connie was the Excalibur.

FSTargetDrone wrote:Why don't they use retractable armored hull plates that can snap shut quickly over the view port?

That still fails to solve the problem of the bridge being in a vulnerable location, i.e., there isn't much metal between it and enemy gunfire, compared to the proposed "CIC buried in the hull."

Or, they can install a small observer's position somewhere on the ship that gives a clear field of view to the outiside but that also doesn't compromise an entire bridge section if the view port is compromised.

This will solve the problem if the bridge section is in a less vulnerable location, e.g., buried in the hull.

Darth Onasi wrote:But if this is a different timeline and this is a different Kirk then maybe he never makes the same specific decisions that send him back in time for Scotty to give the formula for transparent aluminum to the guy who "invented" it.
TIME PARADOX.

When McCoy tells Scotty, "You realize that if we give him the formula, we're altering the future," Scotty replies, "Why? How do we know that he didn't invent the thing?" From this, we can probably conclude the formula's been in the public domain for quite some time before Kirk & Co. went to pick up the whales. Even if it's not invented on Earth, Starfleet can probably get something similar from other members of the Federation, e.g., Vulcan or Andoria.

Sidewinder wrote:

FSTargetDrone wrote:Why don't they use retractable armored hull plates that can snap shut quickly over the view port?

That still fails to solve the problem of the bridge being in a vulnerable location, i.e., there isn't much metal between it and enemy gunfire, compared to the proposed "CIC buried in the hull."

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of the bridge's current location at all. But if they insist on having the top-mounted bridge, I don't understand why there is no fall back physical shield/armor equipment. The Federation in the ST universe clearly puts a lot of reliance of force field/shield technology, to the extent that they seem to have no other backup, be it their holding cells or, presumably in this case, the view port of the ship's bridge. We saw physical armor plates/doors slide over the hangar bay of Grievous' ship in ROTS when the hangar bay opening's force field was destroyed. It wasn't instant and there was some loss of atmosphere and perhaps some battle droids, but the hangar was sealed fairly quickly. And this was a large hangar bay, not a comparatively smaller view port opening.

But, the CIC idea located deep within the most durable part of the ship makes a lot more sense.

Also, in general, given that holographic technology is quite flexible (especially in TNG and after), it's a wonder they don't simply have a bridge section with a full holodeck equipment suite. They can have no end of sensors, cameras, whatnot on the outside of the ship and see whatever there is to see without needing to bother with a view screen at all. The captain can have the whole external situation projected around him and his bridge crew, supplemented with any number of HUD data, and still be safely tucked away in the bowels of the ship.

Now, I don't think we know the state of holodeck technology in this incarnation and time setting, so perhaps it is unavailable.

FSTargetDrone wrote:Also, in general, given that holographic technology is quite flexible (especially in TNG and after), it's a wonder they don't simply have a bridge section with a full holodeck equipment suite. They can have no end of sensors, cameras, whatnot on the outside of the ship and see whatever there is to see without needing to bother with a view screen at all. The captain can have the whole external situation projected around him and his bridge crew, supplemented with any number of HUD data, and still be safely tucked away in the bowels of the ship.

That worked quite well in the Mimbari ships in Babylon 5; I don't think we saw the actual bridge for the war cruisers, but the fleet command center worked like this.

We've had this 'is there any point having a windowed bridge on a military starship' argument before, in much greater depth. The general consensus was 'no, possibly for docking maneuvers but even that is dubious'. There is no plausible level of damage that would knock out the sensors but not a window, or the power to the sensors but not the power to life support - plus at realistic combat ranges you wouldn't see anything useful through a window anyway.

No one seems to have mentioned the 'Defence Fields' described in 'Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise'. This is supposed to be an additional force field bubble, independent of the main shields, that provides extra protection for A and B decks. IMHO it's a reasonable interpretation of Saavik's line about 'energizing defense fields' in TWoK, but sadly it isn't really canon.

Bubble Boy wrote:If the impulse engines have a maximum speed of .25 C, that's 75,000 kilometers per second. Even if they employed half impulse speed in a combat situation, we're talking about ridiculous amounts of speed.

I wonder if this will be demostrated or just another 'stated capability but never seen or used' idea.

Junghalli wrote:Personally I kind of wonder what "full impulse .25 c" is supposed to mean in a spacecraft. Does it refer to delta V? Delta V divided two ways (accel/decell)? Delta V divided four ways (accel/decell/round trip)? Some kind of "maximum speed" imposed by something other than fuel considerations?

I suspect the last one is probably closest to what the authors intended, but I don't know if there's any way to tell.

You know, I had never put the two together, but elsewhere in the TNG TM, it mentions that the maximum rated acceleration of the impulse engine is 10 km/s^2. Coupled with the notion that full impulse is 0.25c, one might extrapolate 0.25c as a standard maximum delta-v for a starship's impulse fuel reserve, while the engines are themselves rated for thrust that provides 10 km/s^2 of practical linear acceleration. If I'm not totally off base, that would imply Galaxy-class engines are capable of a maximum 125 minutes of continuous, full thrust (not accounting for relativistic effects). Then again, if I remember correctly, the deuterium used to fuel impulse engines was from the same reservoir as the deuterium used to fuel the warp engines. *shrug* Just speculating.

Starglider wrote:That worked quite well in the Mimbari ships in Babylon 5; I don't think we saw the actual bridge for the war cruisers, but the fleet command center worked like this.

Ah, cool. I didn't know about Bab 5's use of this.

We've had this 'is there any point having a windowed bridge on a military starship' argument before, in much greater depth. The general consensus was 'no, possibly for docking maneuvers but even that is dubious'. There is no plausible level of damage that would knock out the sensors but not a window, or the power to the sensors but not the power to life support - plus at realistic combat ranges you wouldn't see anything useful through a window anyway.

It might make sense for some sort of docking procedure if the bridge were in a spot that gave a clearer view of the part of the ship located near the docking port, which is on the secondary hull, right? But it might be simpler to have a sort of "harbor pilot" in position near the docking port to take over temporarily for the actual docking.

Also with the docking idea, it reminds of large aerial refueling tanker, in that the bridge crew on the spacecraft can only see forward through the view port. Similarly, the tanker's pilots control the aircraft from the nose of the aircraft, but there is a fuel boom operator in the tail of the aircraft in a prone position assisting the trailing aircraft to be fueled (somewhat "docked," if you will), and he's doing this while looking out of an actual window. Can you imagine the larger tanker's pilots alone trying to perform a similar maneuver without someone in the back?

Question about starship bridges - can anyone identify a real world example where the command and control center is located in a heavily armored and secured location, such as the center of a ship? Even CIC on modern warships isn't exactly secure, and there are benefits on modern and historical warships to have the bridge in an exposed location.

With starships, once the shields go down, the ship is pretty much hosed, so what difference does it make where the bridge is located? Even if it's in the heart of the ship, it'll still only survive a few seconds/minutes longer than an exposed bridge.

Starglider wrote:That worked quite well in the Mimbari ships in Babylon 5; I don't think we saw the actual bridge for the war cruisers, but the fleet command center worked like this.

Funny you mention the Minbari ships; I'm pretty sure Dukat was in the command center when the EarthForce ships opened fire and killed him.

Also didn't the White Star bridges have windows, and were positioned in one of the most vulnerable points on the ship?

Uraniun235 wrote:I'm pretty sure Dukat was in the command center when the EarthForce ships opened fire and killed him.

Also didn't the White Star bridges have windows, and were positioned in one of the most vulnerable points on the ship?

If I remember correctly Dukhat was in one of the hallways when a warrior caste member told him about the earth ships and that he had the weapons activated as their customs demand. Dukat recognized that it could lead to a disaster and ordered the weapons offline. Explosion follows and he was hit by a piece of metal. Delenn goes genocidal after Dhukat died in her arms.

I neither have the movie "In the Beginning" nor the episode "Atonement" at hand. His death scene should be in one of those two.

And yes the Whitestar bridge has windows and it is even more vulnerable than a ST bridge because it is placed flimsy platform at the top of the ship.

Funny you mention the Minbari ships; I'm pretty sure Dukat was in the command center when the EarthForce ships opened fire and killed him.

This is not the case.

Also didn't the White Star bridges have windows, and were positioned in one of the most vulnerable points on the ship?

You are correct. I would only point out a White Star is about a bazillionth of the mass of a full Minbari War Cruiser, and it appeared that hits sufficient to take out the bridge also tended to mission-kill the ship. Basically, if you could hit a White Star with any half-decent cap ship sized weapon, they were toast. The bridge was probably designed to facilitate the "fighter-style" maneuvering the ship was meant to perform.

(Not that it's not still stupid...for instance, the design nearly got Ivanova killed. Oh well.)

Anguirus wrote:

Funny you mention the Minbari ships; I'm pretty sure Dukat was in the command center when the EarthForce ships opened fire and killed him.

This is not the case.

Also didn't the White Star bridges have windows, and were positioned in one of the most vulnerable points on the ship?

You are correct. I would only point out a White Star is about a bazillionth of the mass of a full Minbari War Cruiser, and it appeared that hits sufficient to take out the bridge also tended to mission-kill the ship. Basically, if you could hit a White Star with any half-decent cap ship sized weapon, they were toast. The bridge was probably designed to facilitate the "fighter-style" maneuvering the ship was meant to perform.

(Not that it's not still stupid...for instance, the design nearly got Ivanova killed. Oh well.)

Considering the shape of the White Star just about everything would be exposed. Didnt the bridge detach as an escape pod if the ship was about to explode or am I remembering way wrong?

Quick question: in the past has there been any real life examples when warship`s bridge is specially targeted by enemy gunfire or attacked by strafing fighters to take out commanding staff?

In space warship having exposed bridge with windows does not make any sense at all. All it needs is one proximity nuclear detonation or laser attack to take out crew`s vision. I`m guessing the bridge on a top of a ship, or even worse on top of a huge tower cliche comes from "space is an ocean" trope.

Maybe they do have blast shutters they can lower over the window. Runabouts in DS9 had that feature over their windows which we see in the episode One Little Ship.

Jon wrote:In Nemesis a shot landed close enough to the bridge it tore a hole in the front of it, one crew member was apparently thrown out of it to his death before an emergency forcefield was activated- window or no window it seems the bridge is vulnerable anyway. Also, in Generations the Klingon gunner is specifically told to target the Bridge of the E-D but couldnt shoot for shit and eventually got a lucky shot on one of the nacelles before they got popped themselves.

Actually, they never got the chance to fire their loaking device was triggered moments after that order was given.

Quick question: in the past has there been any real life examples when warship`s bridge is specially targeted by enemy gunfire or attacked by strafing fighters to take out commanding staff?

I think it was more of a lucky shot, but the heavy cruiser San Francisco's bridge was destriyed by a shell at Guadalcanal, killing a rear admiral as well as the ship's captain, Cassin Young, who had previously won the Medal of Honor at Pearl Harbor.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:

Jon wrote:In Nemesis a shot landed close enough to the bridge it tore a hole in the front of it, one crew member was apparently thrown out of it to his death before an emergency forcefield was activated- window or no window it seems the bridge is vulnerable anyway. Also, in Generations the Klingon gunner is specifically told to target the Bridge of the E-D but couldnt shoot for shit and eventually got a lucky shot on one of the nacelles before they got popped themselves.

Actually, they never got the chance to fire their loaking device was triggered moments after that order was given.

Aye, got the order of events wrong. But given the lacklustre aiming moments before, I still reckon it'd have took them a few attempts to hit the target. Perhaps the gunner was pissed up on blood wine or something.

I find it amusing the board's general consensus is Trek accuracy is worth shit, and then comment on the stupidity of the bridge's physical location based upon the requirement of...accuracy.

Sky Captain wrote:Quick question: in the past has there been any real life examples when warship`s bridge is specially targeted by enemy gunfire or attacked by strafing fighters to take out commanding staff?

At the gunnery ranges involved in surface ship duels, it would be impossible to pinpoint a shell to strike any one particular part of the target vessel, nevermind the bridge. And in an air attack, the object is simply to inflict as much damage to reduce the ship's fighting ability while your planes are over the target for the time they have, and there are more vital areas to hit than the bridge —guns, flight deck, hull, etc...

Taking out the bridge of a real-life battleship wouldn't disable the ship - weapons and engine control would still be held by the crew, even amongst the chaos caused by the destruction of the bridge and death of the commanding officers - which is why no-one ever bothers to do it in a naval battle. You either try and take out the gun emplacements, or sink it.