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CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Plekhanov wrote:

Voluntaryist wrote: But government, on the other hand, believes that some people are inherently better and should be trusted with extra special rights over others in the vain belief that this ruling class will somehow produce superior results.

I must confess I'm in awe of the strength of the wall of ignorance necessary for a citizen of the US to make such a statement in spite of the fact the constitution he lives under explicitly separates powers, mandates regular elections of, places term limits on... governors precisely because of an awareness that people are fallible and shouldn't be trusted.

I don't know for sure if all US states have term limits on governors or other elected officials.

I meant governors as in people who govern (which I realise now was a poor choice of words as you actually have Governors with a capital G over there). I'm aware that you don't have term limits for everything but the point remains that in the US as in all other liberal democracies it's frankly impossible to honestly look at their constitutions and conclude that they were set up on the assumption that "some people are inherently better and should be trusted with extra special rights over others in the vain belief that this ruling class will somehow produce superior results".

Granted, point conceeded. BTW, only 36 US states have term limits for their governors. Also interesting, in a few states the legislators have overturned their own laws about term limits to keep themselves in power.

The American government is evil because it disallows the practice of free markets. If America had no government, the free market, capitalism, and corporations would flourish.

The American government is evil because the government chooses who gets special powers. Elections are evil because only mayors and arch-dukes and cardinals and barons are allowed to vote. Not the common man.

This statement applies to all governments everywhere, past, present and future.

You know, I think I recall a time when I was a child, and I thought (like Volleyball) that direct democracy would be better than representative democracy. Mind you, at the time I also thought that high school kids were big and scary.

Darth Wong wrote:You know, I think I recall a time when I was a child, and I thought (like Volleyball) that direct democracy would be better than representative democracy. Mind you, at the time I also thought that high school kids were big and scary.

Dude, they are!

Voluntaryist wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:V, you need to go post in the debate thread, if you have time to post here.

I already have a roughdraft reply, and I will be revising it tonight. How much more control of my own debate do you wish to exert? Authoritarian much, Chewie?

I would like to actually see you debate. So far such occurrences have been fleeting.

Split Volleyball's shit AGAIN.

You'd think he'd learn not to post in the commentary thread for his debate. If he has a rough draft of his post for the debate, why is he wasting time here instead of revising it?

I'm looking forward to seeing Volleyball handle the issue of how a disorganized society can face challenges that require organization, such as, like Surlethe pointed out, maintaining a military force able to repel external aggressors, or as has been pointed in other threads, tackling complex non-profit developments, such as a welfare system or toll-free highways.

Darth Wong wrote:You know, I think I recall a time when I was a child, and I thought (like Volleyball) that direct democracy would be better than representative democracy. Mind you, at the time I also thought that high school kids were big and scary.

And yet, even back then, if you wanted to play anything more complex than sitting alone during recess, you had to set rules, and even decide who was to lead, and to referee. Administrative power is a need of any cooperative endeavor, given that the needs of the task will most certainly conflict with the needs of the individuals. Voluntaryst reminds of those who blame the referees for their teams' defeats.

Edit: Spelling

Plekhanov wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Plekhanov wrote: I must confess I'm in awe of the strength of the wall of ignorance necessary for a citizen of the US to make such a statement in spite of the fact the constitution he lives under explicitly separates powers, mandates regular elections of, places term limits on... governors precisely because of an awareness that people are fallible and shouldn't be trusted.

I don't know for sure if all US states have term limits on governors or other elected officials.

I meant governors as in people who govern (which I realise now was a poor choice of words as you actually have Governors with a capital G over there). I'm aware that you don't have term limits for everything but the point remains that in the US as in all other liberal democracies it's frankly impossible to honestly look at their constitutions and conclude that they were set up on the assumption that "some people are inherently better and should be trusted with extra special rights over others in the vain belief that this ruling class will somehow produce superior results".

To be fair, the original U.S. Constitution granted voting rights only to white male landowners, so those people were indeed a ruling class that the Framers thought should be trusted with extra special rights.

Metatwaddle wrote:

Plekhanov wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote: I don't know for sure if all US states have term limits on governors or other elected officials.

I meant governors as in people who govern (which I realise now was a poor choice of words as you actually have Governors with a capital G over there). I'm aware that you don't have term limits for everything but the point remains that in the US as in all other liberal democracies it's frankly impossible to honestly look at their constitutions and conclude that they were set up on the assumption that "some people are inherently better and should be trusted with extra special rights over others in the vain belief that this ruling class will somehow produce superior results".

To be fair, the original U.S. Constitution granted voting rights only to white male landowners, so those people were indeed a ruling class that the Framers thought should be trusted with extra special rights.

The original U.S. Consitution didn't really specify anything regarding voting rights. It did specifically name black slaves as "3/5ths persons" for taxation and apportionment purposes, however.

So, Volley, you going to post a response yet?

The Vortex Empire wrote:So, Volley, you going to post a response yet?

Patience! He has to spend a day crying, followed by a day of increasing self-deception. Then he proofs the article.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

The Vortex Empire wrote:So, Volley, you going to post a response yet?

Patience! He has to spend a day crying, followed by a day of increasing self-deception. Then he proofs the article.

Self-Deception is banned under Vortex Co. Policy. So post that response, Volley.

I wonder if he switched forums. On a different forum I frequent, I saw a guy peddling a nearly identical argument with a slightly altered name. Then again, I guess it's always possible it's just someone else who believes in Voluntaryism.

Metatwaddle wrote:To be fair, the original U.S. Constitution granted voting rights only to white male landowners, so those people were indeed a ruling class that the Framers thought should be trusted with extra special rights.

Yes (and that example is something I bring up often when I run into Founding Father wankers), but that's specific to early America. Volleyball, like so many American libertarians, seems to forget that early America is not necessarily a model for all government. But it seems to me that most American libertarians are very nostalgic about that period; I wonder if most American libertarians are also white people.

Darth Wong wrote:I wonder if most American libertarians are also white people.

Ever meet a Libertarian who wasn't also pro-Confederate?

I haven't.

Frank Hipper wrote:Ever meet a Libertarian who wasn't also pro-Confederate?

I haven't.

I have. My idiot brother. But then he is also delusional so maybe he shouldn't count.

Darth Servo wrote:My idiot brother.

Well, well, if he's not pro-Confederate at least, there might still hope for him. At least he has enough of a conscience and mind not to support slavery-loving assholes.

Stas Bush wrote:

Darth Servo wrote:My idiot brother.

Well, well, if he's not pro-Confederate at least, there might still hope for him. At least he has enough of a conscience and mind not to support slavery-loving assholes.

He won't support anything. That would require effort on his part. Here are some threads on all the gory details.

link 1
link 2

Darth Wong wrote:

Metatwaddle wrote:To be fair, the original U.S. Constitution granted voting rights only to white male landowners, so those people were indeed a ruling class that the Framers thought should be trusted with extra special rights.

Yes (and that example is something I bring up often when I run into Founding Father wankers), but that's specific to early America. Volleyball, like so many American libertarians, seems to forget that early America is not necessarily a model for all government. But it seems to me that most American libertarians are very nostalgic about that period; I wonder if most American libertarians are also white people.

The Constitutional framers also realized that they were probably wrong about something, if not then then in the future, so they instituted the power of amendment. Therefore, what the Constitution was is irrelevant compared to what it is.

Bad news guys,

Youll never believe this, but last night while I was putting the finishing touches on my official debate response, my hard drive died on me! Im trying to recover the data in there, cause thats where my draft response was, but so far no luck. The HD seems to be totally fucked

Horrible timing for this to happen and Im obviously very pissed about it. Not only because of the debate but also cause of all my personal data, music, pics and shit in there that now seem to be lost forever.

Anyway I am going to have to redo my response on my GFs computer. Im going to rush it as quick as I can but Im not sure how soon Ill be able to post my response... hopefully sometime this weekend I can do it.

Ah, so the dog ate your homework. Gotcha.

Yes, it did. But it ate far more than my homework

Anyway I do remember most of my response and Im recreating it from memory now. Ill post it as soon as its ready.

I'm still calling shenanigans on it. I'm also noting alot of the mess AND Volly now are sporting the date 1-4-08 in their avatar.