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DarkStar
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Post by DarkStar »

LMSx wrote: You'll have to dance through some damn nasty verbal gymnastics to prove to me that two parallel universes are different in weapons yields without SPECIFIC evidence that they are different.
You're putting the ball in the wrong court. With parallel universes, the burden is on you to prove they are the same.
I'll assume that Han Solo's mother was female in both movie and EU continuity, but if we see a flashback of Han watching his female mother in the EU but no flashback in canon, then going by your logic, We Just Can't Know.
False. We may infer mothers are female, based on the fact that Han is humanoid and sexual reproduction seems to be the norm. Of course, we don't know what everyone is packing under their belts, but I don't particularly want to.
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Post by DarkStar »

Master of Ossus wrote: Ask him if ICS comes from a different universe, seeing as how it clearly exists only within the movies.
It's a licensed, non-canon book. Therefore, it does.
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Post by DarkStar »

Darth_Shinji wrote: Someone needs to back him up on the quote he found. I'm not saying GL didn't say anything, but its all a matter of interpertation. It may or may not dismiss the other quotes we have on cannonity. The rest of this thread is based on that quote.
Actually, I didn't find the quote. It was referred to and quoted by someone on Spacebattles, and when next I was in a bookstore, I looked it up and confirmed it myself.
My whole thing though is that without evidence you can't just say the weapons are different, even if it is a alterverse.
You cannot say the weapons are the same, for the very reason that it is an "alterverse".
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Post by LMSx »

"other world"... "parallel universe" ... I don't see how that fits what you said.
You asked for contradictions, but so far there have been no absolute contradictions between the EU and the movies. Indeed, the movies have changed our perception of the EU so it's richer and indeed, better then before.

Compare "Boba Fett was a banished person and he eventually took up the Bounty Hunter trade" and "Boba Fett was a clone of his father, Jango, who was struck down by Mace Windu. He roamed the galaxy until he reached the planet where he stuck around but was eventually banished."
If we accept every single quote about canonicity with open arms, we will never make any sense of everything, since Rostoni's quote that you refer to is contradictory to Lucas, Cerasi, Sansweet, et cetera.
It's only an issue with you, as you attempt to burden the entire SW debate process with a tedious "cross-reference" of the movies and EU. However, that process is not necessary UNTIL we find a DIRECT discrepency between the movies and EU. So far, there have been none, and thus the Movie/Movie Based/Novel/Game structure remains intact.
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Post by DarkStar »

Master of Ossus wrote:I know that DarkStar is an idiot.
No, you've chosen to believe that, without objective evidence to that effect.
It is because he repeatedly says nonsensical things like the ICS is part of the EU, even though it clearly follows the movies.
That's not an argument of mine... it is a simple fact. The ICS is not canon, it is licensed... therefore it is non-canon.
He also repeatedly falls for the fallacy that if he eliminates a source he can eliminate the ability, even if it is still implied or shown in the movies.
I'm not sure you can call that a fallacy, but even if you can it is irrelevant, since that isn't my argument. If you can show the same thing in the movies, get to it.
He also repeatedly posts the same points while ignoring rebuttals.
Stupid responses such as yours generally involve the inclusion of ideas which have already been dealt with by the points I have already mentioned.
ICS is clearly not a part of the EU, as it strictly deals with ships and their abilities that were shown in the movies.
Including those of the guns which did not fire?? :roll:
Remember that similar technology creates similarity in design (ref. Skunk Works coming up with a very similar stealth bomber design to the one built by their competitors, etc.).
Funny, the concept of a flying wing bomber had already been realized in the 40s. Automobile design and theory hasn't changed dramatically since the late 40s.

The idea that the design similarities must mean technological parity is stupid anyway. How are you going to know the difference between a 1 ton weapon and a 1 megaton weapon between parallel universes?
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Post by DarkStar »

LMSx wrote:
"other world"... "parallel universe" ... I don't see how that fits what you said.
You asked for contradictions, but so far there have been no absolute contradictions between the EU and the movies.

I don't recall asking anyone for contradictions. They are not needed... the canon policy makes it clear that the EU is a parallel universe.
If we accept every single quote about canonicity with open arms, we will never make any sense of everything, since Rostoni's quote that you refer to is contradictory to Lucas, Cerasi, Sansweet, et cetera.
It's only an issue with you, as you attempt to burden the entire SW debate process with a tedious "cross-reference" of the movies and EU. However, that process is not necessary UNTIL we find a DIRECT discrepency between the movies and EU. So far, there have been none, and thus the Movie/Movie Based/Novel/Game structure remains intact.
You miss the point. Rostoni called everything canon. Others disagree. You already have contradictions to deal with in your chosen, irrational, and silly canon theory.
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Post by SPOOFE »

No, we were talking about conflicting EU representations of BDZ operations.
Which is odd, because all the representations have been consistent so far. You're just picking examples that describe the act under different stages. In the case of Darksaber, it starts at the beginning of a BDZ... so of COURSE its account is going to differ from what is described when a BDZ is finished.
It would take a helluva lot more than an hour if all she's doing with all turbolasers at maximum strength is starting forest fires.
Please present evidence that that was all that the turbolasers were doing. She noted that she could see the forest fires. That does NOT automatically exclude her being able to see anything else. Perhaps she just took special notice of the fires because she's a pyromaniac at heart.
What, that you're ignoring prior canon representations of BDZs, and not recognizing the fact that forest fires do not equal slagging?
No, Chucklehead, I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that forest fires at the beginning of a BDZ do not exclude the possibility of slagging by the end.
No, molten rock is not as viscous as water... but melting an entire planetary surface is not going to lead to rapid cooling, and you would certainly have nothing for TIE fighters to mop up.
Really? What about, say, deep planet shelters, and/or heavily shielded surface installations? What about low-orbit spacecraft or stations that, for one reason or another, were spared the BDZ? It's called "being thorough". The Imperials don't know whether or not there might be anything left to check out, but on the off chance that there is, it'd be nice to be prepared for it.

You're looking at this thing from such a limited viewpoint... the viewpoint of someone trying desperately to disprove it. In your desperation, you're making very glaring errors.
I'm neither dishonest nor inaccurate... you should try to meet such standards in the future.
You are being dishonest, indeed. You're claiming that the descriptions of the BDZ's are in odds with each other, when the fact remains that they're not. You're claiming that the presence of forest fires excludes the possibility of slagging, when in actuality it doesn't. You're pointing at little quirks in the written material, looking at things with your own contrary opinion, and refusing to acknowledge any other interpretation.

I'll tell you why your interpretation should be disregarded... it requires the exclusion of evidence, evidence that does not need to be excluded with the proper mode of analyzing. Obviously, the best analysis is that which allows the largest volume of information to be kept.
Ah, yes, the simplicity of a dictionary. Like I said ... a common error. These should get you started on the right track:
Those cites deal with the social implications of gender. In Q Who?, Q was obviously talking about the purely physical aspects of gender (we can rule out him discussing the social aspects as he hadn't told them anything significant about Borg society at that point).

To be as specific as possible, Q's exact quote is thus: "Interesting isn't it? Not a he -- not a she." (Quoted right from Wong's TNG database, actually).

Again, this is in direct contradiction to Scorpion and First Contact, in which it is indisputedly shown that the Borg do, indeed, have gender. Granted, their social structure was made out to be very similar to ants, in which there are a tiny number of females and a huge number of sterile males.

But you're right... "Q was just wrong" is a poor rationalization (and a hasty one, although I defend myself in such that it was just a quick example). The better rationalization was that Q meant "for all intents and purposes, this particular drone is genderless", and didn't bother giving the Enterprise the details.
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Post by SirNitram »

I wonder if, in Dark Star's desperate attempts to hack away at the real meaning of Lucas' quotes, he realizes that it's an easy matter to prove firepower far, far greater than the ICS' numbers simply by using ANH.

Nah, that would require a functioning brain....
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

DarkStar wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote: Someone needs to back him up on the quote he found. I'm not saying GL didn't say anything, but its all a matter of interpertation. It may or may not dismiss the other quotes we have on cannonity. The rest of this thread is based on that quote.
Actually, I didn't find the quote. It was referred to and quoted by someone on Spacebattles, and when next I was in a bookstore, I looked it up and confirmed it myself.
okay. I'll look back and find the name of the mag. I have a store with a good selection of back-issues. I might be able to find it.
You cannot say the weapons are the same, for the very reason that it is an "alterverse".
I can say they are the same. There is no evidence to prove that they are different. Alterverse are different only on specific situations. They can go down different tagents true, But they are simarlities, people/polititical groups/ technology. Unless there is a reason to think otherwise, there tech is the same (that has appeared in both sorces, we can't assume the galaxy gun exists in both universe, it could happen, but I degress.). You need to show evidence that the TL's of both universe (IF we were to assume your right on that point anyway.) are different. Or it is safe to assume that they are the same.
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Post by DarkStar »

SPOOFE wrote:
No, we were talking about conflicting EU representations of BDZ operations.
Which is odd, because all the representations have been consistent so far. You're just picking examples that describe the act under different stages. In the case of Darksaber, it starts at the beginning of a BDZ... so of COURSE its account is going to differ from what is described when a BDZ is finished.
Slagging the planet goes much further than the other BDZ definitions ever include.
It would take a helluva lot more than an hour if all she's doing with all turbolasers at maximum strength is starting forest fires.
Please present evidence that that was all that the turbolasers were doing. She noted that she could see the forest fires. That does NOT automatically exclude her being able to see anything else. Perhaps she just took special notice of the fires because she's a pyromaniac at heart.
What, the fact that a turbolaser shot 'obliterated' a mere acre of forest adn destroyed TIEs (with no mention of significant damage to the surroundings) doesn't phase you? An acre is .004 square kilometers, sadly tiny.
What, that you're ignoring prior canon representations of BDZs, and not recognizing the fact that forest fires do not equal slagging?
No, Chucklehead, I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that forest fires at the beginning of a BDZ do not exclude the possibility of slagging by the end.
By default, this disproves the time factor given for a BDZ.
You're looking at this thing from such a limited viewpoint... the viewpoint of someone trying desperately to disprove it. In your desperation, you're making very glaring errors.
You are hardly in a position to accuse a person of bias, or error.
I'm neither dishonest nor inaccurate... you should try to meet such standards in the future.
You are being dishonest, indeed. You're claiming that the descriptions of the BDZ's are in odds with each other, when the fact remains that they're not.
No, you are trying so desperately to rationalize them that you are rewriting all of them, but only if they disagree with the highest-possible-power BDZ idea that you can get away with.
I'll tell you why your interpretation should be disregarded... it requires the exclusion of evidence, evidence that does not need to be excluded with the proper mode of analyzing. Obviously, the best analysis is that which allows the largest volume of information to be kept.
Which is what I am doing.
Ah, yes, the simplicity of a dictionary. Like I said ... a common error. These should get you started on the right track:
Those cites deal with the social implications of gender.
Because gender is a social phenomenon. Sex (i.e. the organs thereof) is a physical phenomenon.
To be as specific as possible, Q's exact quote is thus: "Interesting isn't it? Not a he -- not a she." (Quoted right from Wong's TNG database, actually).
But you're right... "Q was just wrong" is a poor rationalization (and a hasty one, although I defend myself in such that it was just a quick example). The better rationalization was that Q meant "for all intents and purposes, this particular drone is genderless", and didn't bother giving the Enterprise the details.
Good. Move along.
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Post by DarkStar »

SirNitram wrote:I wonder if, in Dark Star's desperate attempts to hack away at the real meaning of Lucas' quotes, he realizes that it's an easy matter to prove firepower far, far greater than the ICS' numbers simply by using ANH.
Which moments of the two-hour long film do you refer to?
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Post by DarkStar »

Darth_Shinji wrote:
DarkStar wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote: Someone needs to back him up on the quote he found. I'm not saying GL didn't say anything, but its all a matter of interpertation. It may or may not dismiss the other quotes we have on cannonity. The rest of this thread is based on that quote.
Actually, I didn't find the quote. It was referred to and quoted by someone on Spacebattles, and when next I was in a bookstore, I looked it up and confirmed it myself.
okay. I'll look back and find the name of the mag. I have a store with a good selection of back-issues. I might be able to find it.
Spielberg is on the cover, if memory serves.
You cannot say the weapons are the same, for the very reason that it is an "alterverse".
I can say they are the same. There is no evidence to prove that they are different.
1. There is evidence of difference. 600 gigajoules claimed versus observed hand-grenade type yields, 8 megatons claimed versus tons or kilotons observed.
2. I don't need evidence of difference. You need evidence of similarity. The ball is in your court.
Alterverse are different only on specific situations.
And we don't know what those are, or how many of them there are which we are unaware of. Even in the "modest-sized" galaxy of the canon, it's still a big galaxy out there.
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Post by SirNitram »

Destruction of Alderaan(Proving that the DS's effective firepower is 1e38J, whatever the mechanism is).
Han Solo's quote of a fleet of a 1000 ships(Obviously not entirely accurate, but all we have to go off with just the movies).
Dodonna's military briefing in which he describes the superlaser as having firepower 'Equal to half the starfleet'.

Therefore, each ISD(The only Imperial vessel we see, aside from the SSD, which hadn't appeared yet) must have effective firepower equal to roughly 5e35J.

Hehehehe. I love mocking the Trekkies by using their own stupid theories against them.
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Post by Darth_Shinji »

DarkStar wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:
DarkStar wrote: Actually, I didn't find the quote. It was referred to and quoted by someone on Spacebattles, and when next I was in a bookstore, I looked it up and confirmed it myself.
okay. I'll look back and find the name of the mag. I have a store with a good selection of back-issues. I might be able to find it.
Spielberg is on the cover, if memory serves.
You cannot say the weapons are the same, for the very reason that it is an "alterverse".
I can say they are the same. There is no evidence to prove that they are different.
1. There is evidence of difference. 600 gigajoules claimed versus observed hand-grenade type yields, 8 megatons claimed versus tons or kilotons observed.
2. I don't need evidence of difference. You need evidence of similarity. The ball is in your court. [/qoute]
So be it.
Which scenes were these points from? I find some stuff out on them.

While I'm doing that here is my counter.
1. the deathstar qoute: look above at SirNitram's post.
2. The asteriods being vaprozized clearly show the TL's are at the giggaton range.
Please show a possible difference between the eu tl strenghts and movie tls strenght.




Alterverse are different only on specific situations.
And we don't know what those are, or how many of them there are which we are unaware of. Even in the "modest-sized" galaxy of the canon, it's still a big galaxy out there.
What do you mean? I'm losing your point. Anyway the EU would be an alternate future. Which means that the actions taking place during the movies are the same. I would assume the weapon strenghts are the same as well. At least during this time period.
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Post by DarkStar »

SirNitram wrote:Destruction of Alderaan(Proving that the DS's effective firepower is 1e38J, whatever the mechanism is).
Bzzt. Depends on what it shoots.
Han Solo's quote of a fleet of a 1000 ships(Obviously not entirely accurate, but all we have to go off with just the movies).
Yeah, "with more firepower than has ever existed", or words to that effect.
Dodonna's military briefing in which he describes the superlaser as having firepower 'Equal to half the starfleet'.
Even if you give the superlaser 1e38J against any target, what fraction of the Death Star's total firepower is the superlaser, and can you demonstrate that he was including that in his statements to fighter pilots?

(Remember, that thing is lousy with turbolaser emplacements.)
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Post by DarkStar »

Darth_Shinji wrote:
DarkStar wrote: 1. There is evidence of difference. 600 gigajoules claimed versus observed hand-grenade type yields, 8 megatons claimed versus tons or kilotons observed.
2. I don't need evidence of difference. You need evidence of similarity. The ball is in your court. [/qoute]
So be it.
Which scenes were these points from? I find some stuff out on them.
600 gigajoules is the firepower quoted for the two little cannons that shot at Obi-Wan on the platform. 8 megatons is given for the larger cannons fired at Obi-Wan in the ring chase scene.
While I'm doing that here is my counter.
1. the deathstar qoute: look above at SirNitram's post.
2. The asteriods being vaprozized clearly show the TL's are at the giggaton range.
Wong gives 1500 TJ for the firepower of the asteroid scene. That is 0.000358509 gigatons.

You can call that gigaton-range if you want, but I wouldn't, if I were you.
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Post by LMSx »

2. I don't need evidence of difference. You need evidence of similarity. The ball is in your court.
:roll:

YOUR the one saying that there are two parallel universes.

I'll reiterate again: The whole point of a PARALLEL universe as represented through most standard fiction is that there is one or two unusual events.

It's not our responsibility to prove everything that is similar, it's YOUR responsibility to provide the one or two unusual events that CANNOT be reconciled to establish your theory that weapon yields are different in the two universes. If you cannot prove that there are one or two unusual events between the movies and EU that cannot be reconciled with a reasonable explanation, then we will continue to assume that weapons yields are the same.

BTW-The EU counts for things published after RotJ. The ICS is DIRECTLY based off of the movie.
Even if you give the superlaser 1e38J against any target, what fraction of the Death Star's total firepower is the superlaser, and can you demonstrate that he was including that in his statements to fighter pilots?
:shock: What, do you think that the turbolasers also aimed at Alderaan to help the process out?
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Post by SPOOFE »

All right. Time to end this.

Darkstar, you claimed that you haven't been dishonest.

So why do you then compare Daala's attack on Yavin IV to a BDZ?

Nowhere in the book does she call it a BDZ. At the start of the invasion, they send in ground troops.

Nowhere does it mention that Heavy Turbolasers are used. Turbolaser batteries are mountings of five guns and three turrets, two turrets with twin guns and one turret with a single gun. They are NOT Heavy Turbolasers.

You have been dishonest.

(Many thanks to Wayne Poe, who posted this information for all to see over at SB.)
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Post by DarkStar »

LMSx wrote:
2. I don't need evidence of difference. You need evidence of similarity. The ball is in your court.


YOUR the one saying that there are two parallel universes.

I'll reiterate again: The whole point of a PARALLEL universe as represented through most standard fiction is that there is one or two unusual events.
Proof that Lucas referred to a parallel universe of the parameters you assume?

To my mind, "parallel universe" can refer to any number of differences. The only constraint on those differences is that we have to end up with the character/situational similarities, but when you are dealing with the infinite possibilities of parallel universes, assuming that everything is similar is a helluva long way from having proof.
BTW-The EU counts for things published after RotJ. The ICS is DIRECTLY based off of the movie.
The ICS is EU material. All things licensed or published which are not canon (canon being the films, scripts, novelisations thereof, and the NPR radio plays) are EU.
Even if you give the superlaser 1e38J against any target, what fraction of the Death Star's total firepower is the superlaser, and can you demonstrate that he was including that in his statements to fighter pilots?
:shock: What, do you think that the turbolasers also aimed at Alderaan to help the process out?
No, nor do I have any idea where you pulled that stupidity from. It is neither explicit nor implicit in what you quoted of mine.
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Post by DarkStar »

SPOOFE wrote:All right. Time to end this.

Darkstar, you claimed that you haven't been dishonest.

So why do you then compare Daala's attack on Yavin IV to a BDZ?
Ha, that's your ass, bitch. :twisted:

What part of "all turbolaser batteries" and "full power" didn't you understand?
Nowhere in the book does she call it a BDZ. At the start of the invasion, they send in ground troops.

Nowhere does it mention that Heavy Turbolasers are used. Turbolaser batteries are mountings of five guns and three turrets, two turrets with twin guns and one turret with a single gun. They are NOT Heavy Turbolasers.
Funny, your average ISD has its HTLs mounted in multi-gun turrets. Proof that an SSD does not?
You have been dishonest.
No, you've been dishonest for posting bullshit.
(Many thanks to Wayne Poe, who posted this information for all to see over at SB.)
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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

All arise! This is the case of the people of SD.net vs DarkStar, local village idiot!

Thats probably what they'd be saying if this was a court case. But if this were with real lawyers, this thread would've dragged on even longer, assuming that's possible. I admit, I've lost most interest in this thread, back and forth DarkStar goes, reiterating points without refuting. But that's not the real reason I'm here.

I'd just like to say that in the (impossible) event that DarkStar were able to prove the fine people of SD.net wrong, would it matter to me? Or anyone else who resides here, there, or in a galaxy far, far away? Nope, not in the slightest. Even if DarkStar were to some howmake us all believe that the EU is a seperate universe and that it doesn't apply to these debates, t would not matter to me. I would still show the EU proudly (as I think most people would) and debate with it at will. For you see, DarkStar, your debate is pointless. It shall bear no fruit. EU, in my mind and in the minds of any would actually try to debate rationally, is to be considered canon unless contradicted by the movies, novelizations, script, or radio dramas.

People of SD.net, have you decided a verdict?
Yes your Honor we have, we the people of SD.net sentence DarkStar to a life sentence in th emines of Kessel, for his awful, awful debating skills.
Then the verdict is decided, this court is adjourned. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Post by SirNitram »

Oh yea, I forgot Dark Star still beleives magic fairies or whatever did the job of destroying Alderaan. :roll: I keep thinking no human being can be as dumb as him, but he likes to prove he's the stupidest thing ever to type on a keyboard.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Motion to re-name the "Broken Record" the "DarkStar Defense." All in favor....
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Post by DarkStar »

DarkStar wrote: Oops, I guess that wasn't your ass. I'll be back... gotta go hand Wayne his.
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post804306
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Post by DarkStar »

Darth Garden Gnome wrote: I'd just like to say that in the (impossible) event that DarkStar were able to prove the fine people of SD.net wrong, would it matter to me? Or anyone else who resides here, there, or in a galaxy far, far away? Nope, not in the slightest. Even if DarkStar were to some howmake us all believe that the EU is a seperate universe and that it doesn't apply to these debates, t would not matter to me. I would still show the EU proudly (as I think most people would) and debate with it at will. For you see, DarkStar, your debate is pointless. It shall bear no fruit. EU, in my mind and in the minds of any would actually try to debate rationally, is to be considered canon unless contradicted by the movies, novelizations, script, or radio dramas.
You act as if you think I was under the impression I could change your mind. The only minds I assume I might be able to reach are those which are active and open.

The most I expect out of you and the other warsies here is to make them realize that when they invoke EU data, they are not arguing using "the real story of Star Wars" (Cerasi), which is the canon.
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