China to send space into man

[StarshipTitanic]

I'm saying that, what with the current funding and PR levels of NASA, that the Chinese will be the first on Mars.

So Mars really will be the Red Planet then?

Yellow.

[Patrick Degan]

And this says they're incapable of putting a man in space how, exactly?

It says that I don't exactly have a very high opinion of the quality of their
workmanship. Which is why I prefer the term "Dead" for anyone who
steps into a Chinese made space capsule.

Hate to tell you this, but in any contest between opinion and fact, opinion loses every time.

Fact:

http://www.concentric.net/~Jetfight/

It looks as if the Chinese have solved the problems they were having with their J-10 project, have successfully test-flown seven prototypes, and started production on the A variant. And while they're having problems with quietness engineering on their new SSN, their new conventional SSG class is rated very highly for subs of their type.

http://www.space.com/news/china_space_020313.html
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/af ... 30105.html

It doesn't look as if the Chinese rushed to put a man in orbit before completing a series of unmanned test-flights of their Shenzhou capsule. From the information in this report, they seem to be going about at the same pace as Mercury and Vostok —and that level of technology was sufficent to put men in space.

http://www.cgwic.com.cn/about/milestones.htm

The record indicates only two failures in sixty-one launches with the Long March rocket system.

And BTW, before arguing that the Chinese craft might be less safe and reliable than our own, I'm constrained to point out that 17 dead American astronauts might disagree.

[MKSheppard]

Hate to tell you this, but in any contest between opinion and fact, opinion loses every time.

Hate to tell you this, but John Pike is more credible than your sources.

Chinese Song-Class SSK:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/song.htm

This program has apparently slowed in favor of Russian-built submarines and continued production of the Ming-class.

...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/ming.htm

Thought to have terminated in 1996, the Project 035 program produced its 20th hull late in 2000. The new boat was reportedly two meters longer than previous units, suggesting plans for continued production of this obsolete design. Indeed, as of mid-2002 China had launched a total of 21 MINGs.

It's really sad when your next generation submarine is being reduced
in favor of fucking Type XXI U-Boat knockoffs. (Which is what the Ming
really is. It's a knockoff of the Russian Romeo class, which is in itself
a knock off of the XXI.)

As for the J-10, it's pure bullshit. They've said on and off for years and
years that the damn thing is being produced, mostly on Chinese aviation
websites, complete with photoshopped planes.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /su-30.htm

The Su-30MKK for China is different in details from the basic Su-30MK. In June 1999 Russia agreed to sell 72 of these front-line Sukhoi-30 jet fighter-bombers to China. The aircraft building enterprise in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (KnAAPO) is likely to become the main supplier of a large lot of Su-30MKK fighter jets to China. The cost of one Su-30MKK fighter jet is estimated at $35 million - $37 million. At the same time, negotiations began for Moscow to grant a licence for the production of another 250 Sukhoi-30 fighters.

In late July 2001 China signed a contract with the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association to supply upward of $2 billion worth of Su-30 MKK ground-attack planes. One report put the number of jets at 38 aircraft. The factory's 5,000 workers would be working until 2003 to fulfill the terms of the contract. Russia had already delivered between 70 and 100 Su-27s to China.

In July 2002 it was reported that China would buy around 30 Su-30MK2 naval fighters, on top of the 80 Su-30MKKs it bought in 1999 and 2001. The deal was estimated it to be worth at least $1.2 billion. The Su-30MK2, a modified version of the Su-30MKK, is a naval striker equipped with X-31A anti-ship missiles. Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association is the maker of the plane.

Buying 30 more Sukhoi fighters would give China a total of as many as 400. China took delivery of 26 Su-27SK/UBKs in 1992 and another 22 in 1995. In 1996 China signed a contract to produce 200 Su-27SKs under license.

On February 14, 2003 the Washington Times reported that China had received its latest shipment of SU-30MKKs from Russia. The exact number of aircraft involved was not clear.

If J-10 is ready for production, Deegan, why do large numbers of
Su-30MKKs keep coming into the PLA if they could save money and
build up their domestic aviation industry by producing the J-10?

Oh yes, I love the J-7 soap opera. They tried producing a domestic Su-24 bomber
knockoff, and only ended up producing two dozen of them due to really really unreliable
chinese-built engines, and instead ended up buying Su-30MKKs for the maritime
strike role.

The record indicates only two failures in sixty-one launches with the Long March rocket system.

I do love this line:

http://www.clw.org/coalition/spratt052599.htm

The specific flaw in the Long March 2E, found after its failure to launch the Optus B2, was in the vertical seam of the fairing. The Chinese were so reluctant to admit this defect that it took a second launch failure and a Hughes "tutorial" in rocket science before the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT) made adequate changes in the fairing.

Actually, that quote is rather telling. The Chinese couldn't bring themselves to admit
that yes, they fucked up, and so a second Long March was lost. I think this is the crux
with all their development problems in the aerospace industry and maritime industries.

They just can't imagine that they could be wrong, it seems to be a societal problem
that holds back their potential to produce quality goods.

And the Chinese are notorious for their second rate equipment in the firearms industry.
A NORINCO AK will fire reliably, due to it being an AK, but if you buy a NORINCO
M-14 clone, expect some major problems with quality control.

And BTW, before arguing that the Chinese craft might be less safe and reliable than our own, I'm constrained to point out that 17 dead American astronauts might disagree.

Keep in mind that only 14 have actually died in a spacecraft in flight, and those
were separated by about 50 successful launches over 17 years. I'm a bit concerned
about the Chinese using mannequins for their unmanned testing program. I can't help
but get the feeling that they forgot something when instrumenting those mannequins,
instead of just stuffing a panda in to see if he survives.

And they have no real experience with manned spaceflight, so I wouldn't put it
past them to make a boneheaded screwup like forget to correctly seat an oxygen
vent valve leading to the "deadnauts" dying ala Soyuz 11 when they survived
the launch and 22 days on Salyut 1, but perished during re-entry because the
Russians eliminated pressure suits to put a third guy into Soyuz.

[Vympel]

The J-10 is in prototype form and is flying- however, the only thing that's really Chinese is the airframe and a few other components. The critical parts- the radar and engines are Russian (Phazotron Zhuk-M derivative and Saturn AL-31FN). It'll probably be several 'blocks' before Chinese components are intergrated. Production though I can't say. The Chinese photoshop fanboys don't help the situation at all. Their own turbofan, the WS-10A, is only at AL-31F (the Su-27s engine- i.e. over 20 years old technology) level in most charachteristics- which American/Russia have moved well beyond (the only two countries who currently produce turbofans in that class).

With regard to Shep's J-7 combat, I'm pretty sure he means the JH-7, which was indeed a horrible failure (underpowered, underarmed etc) enough to warrant purchase of the far superior Su-30MKK for Naval Aviation. They're working on a JH-7A now for service in 2005, but I don't see what place it'll have- it'll still be quite crappy by world standards (F-15E, Su-30MK, or Su-32).

In other aviation news, their JF-17 'Thunder' was recently unveiled, making it's first flight 24 August 2003. It's the final form of the long-going 'Super 7' project that China started out with the US in the 1980s. The US pulled out after the massacre at Tianamen (sp?) but the Chinese continued, under the name 'FC-1'. Again, it'll have a Russian engine (a single RD-93, a derivative of the MiG-29 turbofan). It's for Pakistan, I don't think China has any plans to procure it, but don't quote me on that. It's pretty much a glorified light fighter to replace Pakistan's F-7 force- so maybe it'll replace China's pathetic J-7 force too.

Their submarine programs aren't impressive however. Their new SSN will be at around the Victor III technology level, and their new SSK sucks.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Their submarine programs aren't impressive however. Their new SSN will be at around the Victor III technology level, and their new SSK sucks.

Actually, they THINK it'd be about Victor III or Permit kinda level. That level represents your AWARENESS you must quiet the sub and the stuff you can think of to quiet the sub without practical experience. Without real expereince in actually quieting, you may not be able to get much further than that - actually running to sub tells you where else you needa patch. For a "second time" design, it is probably par.

[Tsyroc]

, what?

the article states:

Friday's announcement also gave the first official details of the planned flight, revealing that the Shenzhou (Divine Vessel) V spacecraft would make 14 orbits of the Earth before landing in a pre-selected area.

D'oh!

Note to self: Must read more carefully.

[Patrick Degan]

Hate to tell you this, but in any contest between opinion and fact, opinion loses every time.

Hate to tell you this, but John Pike is more credible than your sources.

All the John Pike article indicates was that they had problems with the initial development, not that the design was a failure. Try again.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/ming.htm

Thought to have terminated in 1996, the Project 035 program produced its 20th hull late in 2000. The new boat was reportedly two meters longer than previous units, suggesting plans for continued production of this obsolete design. Indeed, as of mid-2002 China had launched a total of 21 MINGs.

It's really sad when your next generation submarine is being reduced in favor of fucking Type XXI U-Boat knockoffs. (Which is what the Ming really is. It's a knockoff of the Russian Romeo class, which is in itself a knock off of the XXI.)

It's called bugetary restrictions. We had to cancel our own Seawolf programme at two boats for much the same reason.

As for the J-10, it's pure bullshit. They've said on and off for years and years that the damn thing is being produced, mostly on Chinese aviation websites, complete with photoshopped planes.

You'd better come up with better evidence than that.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /su-30.htm

The Su-30MKK for China is different in details from the basic Su-30MK. In June 1999 Russia agreed to sell 72 of these front-line Sukhoi-30 jet fighter-bombers to China. The aircraft building enterprise in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (KnAAPO) is likely to become the main supplier of a large lot of Su-30MKK fighter jets to China. The cost of one Su-30MKK fighter jet is estimated at $35 million - $37 million. At the same time, negotiations began for Moscow to grant a licence for the production of another 250 Sukhoi-30 fighters.

In late July 2001 China signed a contract with the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association to supply upward of $2 billion worth of Su-30 MKK ground-attack planes. One report put the number of jets at 38 aircraft. The factory's 5,000 workers would be working until 2003 to fulfill the terms of the contract. Russia had already delivered between 70 and 100 Su-27s to China.

In July 2002 it was reported that China would buy around 30 Su-30MK2 naval fighters, on top of the 80 Su-30MKKs it bought in 1999 and 2001. The deal was estimated it to be worth at least $1.2 billion. The Su-30MK2, a modified version of the Su-30MKK, is a naval striker equipped with X-31A anti-ship missiles. Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association is the maker of the plane.

Buying 30 more Sukhoi fighters would give China a total of as many as 400. China took delivery of 26 Su-27SK/UBKs in 1992 and another 22 in 1995. In 1996 China signed a contract to produce 200 Su-27SKs under license.

On February 14, 2003 the Washington Times reported that China had received its latest shipment of SU-30MKKs from Russia. The exact number of aircraft involved was not clear.

If J-10 is ready for production, Deegan, why do large numbers of Su-30MKKs keep coming into the PLA if they could save money and build up their domestic aviation industry by producing the J-10?

The programme is just starting, and the PLAAF aren't going to wait for production of one type to ramp up to replace ageing fighters in their inventory. The Su-30 MMK is available in quantity now, and it makes sense to go with what's available.

http://www.clw.org/coalition/spratt052599.htm

The specific flaw in the Long March 2E, found after its failure to launch the Optus B2, was in the vertical seam of the fairing. The Chinese were so reluctant to admit this defect that it took a second launch failure and a Hughes "tutorial" in rocket science before the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT) made adequate changes in the fairing.

Actually, that quote is rather telling. The Chinese couldn't bring themselves to admit that yes, they fucked up, and so a second Long March was lost. I think this is the crux with all their development problems in the aerospace industry and maritime industries.

They just can't imagine that they could be wrong, it seems to be a societal problem that holds back their potential to produce quality goods.

Same deal with the Soviets. They succeeded with Vostok, Voskhod, and Soyuz under the same conditions and despite the same unwillingness of the government to admit to failure. Two failures in sixty-one launches still adds up to a success rate of 97%. Numbers don't lie. And evidently the Chinese did bring themselves to admit that they fucked up and did what was required to correct the defect.

And the Chinese are notorious for their second rate equipment in the firearms industry. A NORINCO AK will fire reliably, due to it being an AK, but if you buy a NORINCO M-14 clone, expect some major problems with quality control.

Which has fuck-all to do with any discussion of a space programme.

And BTW, before arguing that the Chinese craft might be less safe and reliable than our own, I'm constrained to point out that 17 dead American astronauts might disagree.

Keep in mind that only 14 have actually died in a spacecraft in flight, and those were separated by about 50 successful launches over 17 years.

A distinction which is actually meaningless. Accidents will happen no matter how good the technology is.

And they have no real experience with manned spaceflight

Funny, I think there was a time when we and the Russians had no real experience with manned spaceflight.

so I wouldn't put it past them to make a boneheaded screwup like forget to correctly seat an oxygen vent valve leading to the "deadnauts" dying ala Soyuz 11 when they survived the launch and 22 days on Salyut 1, but perished during re-entry because the Russians eliminated pressure suits to put a third guy into Soyuz.

Yes, who knows what sort of bonehead screwups they might make. They might be dumb enough to pump highly flammable pure oxygen into their capsules for cabin atmosphere. Or they might be dumb enough to install a defective pump mechanism into a capsule's power-cell system. Or ignore the dangers of freezing temperatures causing embrittlement of rubber O-ring seals on a booster rocket. Or spray on loose foam insulation which could flake off and punch a hole in somewhere...

Oh, wait —those were our bonehead screwups. Seventeen dead astronauts and the near-loss of an additional three in a moon mission that had to be aborted due to spacecraft damage. Despite our vast experience and our über-tech...

What was your point again?

[MKSheppard]

All the John Pike article indicates was that they had problems with the initial development, not that the design was a failure. Try again.

You seem to have missed this:

The acquisition of Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, demonstrates a lack of confidence in domestic industrial capabilities. China’s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China’s interceptor inventory.

It's called bugetary restrictions. We had to cancel our own Seawolf programme at two boats for much the same reason.

Yet we replaced it with the NSSN program which is more advanced than
a Los Angeles class boat, but less advanced than a Seawolf, instead of
dusting off plans for Tang-class submarines.

You'd better come up with better evidence than that.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/air ... 2410-3937r

Pakistan and China have agreed on an initial production run of 500 versions of their new jointly developed FC-1 fighter jet, known in China as the Xiao Long, after Chinese military objections were overruled. China's air chiefs preferred to concentrate on getting the long-delayed and more sophisticated J-10 into service. But after heavy lobbying by Pakistan and by China's influential China Aero Technology Import and Export Co. and by the manufacturer, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co., the deal is going ahead. Pakistan's Air Force is taking 150, China has now agreed to take 200, and the remainder are aimed at export markets. The new warplane, based on the Russian MiG-33 (declined by the Russian air force) and equipped with Russian RD-93 turbofan engines, has had its control surfaces redesigned to make it more of a match for the U.S.-built F-16 in maneuverability. The longer production run is supposed to bring the unit price down to $10 million. The joint development project has so far cost the two countries $500 million.

The programme is just starting

You call being in development for 15 years "just starting"?

To be truthful, I think the J-10 will actually end up being China's
version of the F-22, and will never actually enter service, same with
our F-22.

and the PLAAF aren't going to wait for production of one type to ramp up to replace ageing fighters in their inventory. The Su-30 MMK is available in quantity now, and it makes sense to go with what's available.

Perhaps, but there seems to be a trend in Chinese arms development;
they build their own stuff, it fails miserably or is delayed so long, that they
open up their checkbooks and send money to Russia or other countries.

Case in point is the Luhu class - they're the most advanced indigenously
produced DDGs in the chinese inventory, entering service in 1994, and 1996, but are considered antiquated by Western standards, hence the
Chinese decision to buy four Sovremenny destroyers from Russia.

For example, the Luhas carry about 32~ SAMs with a range of 10-14 km,
while the two Russian-built Sovremennys, despite being built in 1978, carry 48~ SAMs capable of destroying targets 25 km away, almost twice the range
of the indigenious chinese designs.

And the Chinese Luhas only carry subsonic anti-ship missiles, the C-802s,
which are Silkworms, as opposed to the Sunburns on the Sovremmenys,
which are supersonic ASMs which could give a US ship a run for it's
money.

And I love this bit on the Luha:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/luhu.htm

Americans boarding the ship discovered that many of the interiors were made of plywood, and highly vulnerable to shipboard fires.

Two failures in sixty-one launches still adds up to a success rate of 97%. Numbers don't lie.

Interestingly enough, thats about roughly the success rate for the STS.

Which has fuck-all to do with any discussion of a space programme.

NORINCO is a major Chinese defense manufacturer. If they can screw up
a Garand system...well...

[JodoForce]

I'm saying that, what with the current funding and PR levels of NASA, that the Chinese will be the first on Mars.

So Mars really will be the Red Planet then?

Yellow.

I'd just LOVE to see Mike's reaction to that. And this whole thread, for that matter.

[Spyder]

So, if this is successful how much compunction do you think China will have against putting nukes into space?

[Sea Skimmer]

Case in point is the Luhu class - they're the most advanced indigenously
produced DDGs in the chinese inventory, entering service in 1994, and 1996, but are considered antiquated by Western standards, hence the
Chinese decision to buy four Sovremenny destroyers from Russia.

The most advanced Chinese destroyer is the Luhai. Course, both it and the Luhu are laden with imported parts, the turbines came from the Ukraine, the SAM's are copies of the French Crotale, the torpedoes are knock offs of knock offs of the Mk46 mod 1, which was obsolete several decades ago. Several of the radars, air search and fire control, are French.

There's a claim that the Luhai is being refitted to carry the long range HQ-9 missile, the designers certainly left space for such an instillation. However the HQ-9 is effectively a Russian S-300 and is still in development, reportedly with major radar problems and funding may have been suspended.

For example, the Luhas carry about 32~ SAMs with a range of 10-14 km,
while the two Russian-built Sovremennys, despite being built in 1978, carry 48~ SAMs capable of destroying targets 25 km away, almost twice the range
of the indigenious chinese designs.

As noted above, the SAM's on both of there recent destroyer classes are Crotale's not indigenious designs.

And the Chinese Luhas only carry subsonic anti-ship missiles, the C-802s,
which are Silkworms, as opposed to the Sunburns on the Sovremmenys,
which are supersonic ASMs which could give a US ship a run for it's
money.

The C-801/2/3 are all a new design, well it was new when developed but that was the late 1980's. It's based off Silkworm and Exocet technology and while it works, the basic version was very short range with a small warhead dispite being larger then a Harpoon. The 802/3 are much better in terms of range but not warhead.

[Sea Skimmer]

So, if this is successful how much compunction do you think China will have against putting nukes into space?

Why the fuck would they bother with such an expensive system? ICBM's work just fine. But China has made no attempt to increase its long-range nuclear forces for a long time and that's not likely to change. Especially given the block obsolescence of there conventional military.

[Patrick Degan]

It's called bugetary restrictions. We had to cancel our own Seawolf programme at two boats for much the same reason.

Yet we replaced it with the NSSN program which is more advanced than a Los Angeles class boat, but less advanced than a Seawolf, instead of dusting off plans for Tang-class submarines.

And now there's doubt about the financing for the Virginia and her sisters, and since your example shows the USN "settling for less", your point seems to make no point.

You'd better come up with better evidence than that.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/air ... er/j10.asp

According to the latest reports from a Chinese official media, a type of new fighter aircraft has entered service with a PLAAF unit based in east China, implying that the J-10 has completed initial flight tests. It is estimated that in addition to the original 6 prototype aircraft, at least another 10 aircraft have been built for operational test and evaluation (OT&E) phase in combat units.

Uhm, nothing about serial production of the A variant.

But something about the J-10 going into service, it seems...

Oh, and BTW, from that same article:

UPGRADE

According to the sources inside the CAC, a two-seater fighter-trainer version of the J-10 is currently under development. It is expected that this variant, possibly designated as J-10B, will roll out in near future.

It also projects that a twin-engine naval variant of the J-10 might be fitted on China's first aircraft carrier.

An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability.

China might also be considering upgrading the J-10 with more advanced phased-array radar from Russia or Israel to improve its combat capabilities.


Not exactly the mark of a failed programme.

It also appears that the J-10 has been downgraded in favor of producing the FC-1:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200 ... 2410-3937r

Pakistan and China have agreed on an initial production run of 500 versions of their new jointly developed FC-1 fighter jet, known in China as the Xiao Long, after Chinese military objections were overruled. China's air chiefs preferred to concentrate on getting the long-delayed and more sophisticated J-10 into service. But after heavy lobbying by Pakistan and by China's influential China Aero Technology Import and Export Co. and by the manufacturer, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co., the deal is going ahead. Pakistan's Air Force is taking 150, China has now agreed to take 200, and the remainder are aimed at export markets. The new warplane, based on the Russian MiG-33 (declined by the Russian air force) and equipped with Russian RD-93 turbofan engines, has had its control surfaces redesigned to make it more of a match for the U.S.-built F-16 in maneuverability. The longer production run is supposed to bring the unit price down to $10 million. The joint development project has so far cost the two countries $500 million.

Again, the PLAAF are buying what's available and it looks as if the Chinese were heavily involved in the development project along with the Pakistanis. You weaken your case.

The programme is just starting

You call being in development for 15 years "just starting"?

And how long, exctly, did it take the Stealth bomber to be developed? That programme was first announced in 1980 and took nine years to start delivering units for service.

and the PLAAF aren't going to wait for production of one type to ramp up to replace ageing fighters in their inventory. The Su-30 MMK is available in quantity now, and it makes sense to go with what's available.

Perhaps, but there seems to be a trend in Chinese arms development; they build their own stuff, it fails miserably or is delayed so long, that they open up their checkbooks and send money to Russia or other countries.

All that demonstrates is that they still lack the same heavy industrial base to adequately support an independent arms production system that we and the Russians enjoy, not that they are technologically inept and incapable of building space rockets, which they demonstrably are able to do.

Case in point is the Luhu class <snip> And I love this bit on the Luha:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/luhu.htm

Americans boarding the ship discovered that many of the interiors were made of plywood, and highly vulnerable to shipboard fires.

And in the 70s and 80s, we fielded ships which were built with aluminium superstructures which were highly vulnerable to shipboard fires. You may want to ask survivors from the Belknap and the Stark about that one.

Two failures in sixty-one launches still adds up to a success rate of 97%. Numbers don't lie.

Interestingly enough, thats about roughly the success rate for the STS.

Except their two failures didn't kill 14 astronauts.

NORINCO is a major Chinese defense manufacturer. If they can screw up a Garand system...well...

And your evidence that NORINCO are building Long March and Shenzhou is...

[Patrick Degan]

So, if this is successful how much compunction do you think China will have against putting nukes into space?

About the same as ours and the Russians.

[Sea Skimmer]

And how long, exctly, did it take the Stealth bomber to be developed? That programme was first announced in 1980 and took nine years to start delivering units for service.

Yeah, and China has taken over 50% longer with a far less complex and demanding design that was built off of years and billions of dollars of pervious Israeli and US work to field a handful of prototypes.

That just fucking sucks. And they haven't even had to developed to two most complex parts, the engine and radar.

[Sea Skimmer]

And in the 70s and 80s, we fielded ships which were built with aluminium superstructures which were highly vulnerable to shipboard fires. You may want to ask survivors from the Belknap and the Stark about that one.

Actually both ships would have suffered comparable damage if built completely of steel, you cannot extinguish a solid rocket fuel fire and they will melt through steel, and Belknap was drenched in blazing jet fuel which also was hot enough to melt steel. And contrary to myth aluminum has never burned in a warship fire.

And none of that in any way compared to the stupidity of ladening the ship with vast amounts of highly flammable material in its interior.

[PainRack]

*snip chinese are so smart stuff*

If they're so brainy, then why is their best domestically produced plane
a MiG-21 knockoff? They've always failed every time they've tried to
produce a next generation fighter, despite the obvious photoshopping
jobs by Chinese aviation fanboi, hence them buying FLANKERS from Russia.

???

The latest domestic plane model is supposed to be some kind of equivalent to the F-16 A.

[Vympel]

The latest domestic plane model is supposed to be some kind of equivalent to the F-16A.

It bears some vague similarity to the F-16A, but Shep is right, it was developed off of the J-7 (hence the original name 'Super-7')- and even the F-16A is quite old and woefully outclassed nowadays- in the age of the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Sukhoi's various "Super FLANKERs" and RSK MiGs MiG-29M1/M2, the JF-17 just doesn't measure up in any way, shape or form.

But, a mix of the J-11 (license-built Su-27SK) and the domestic J-10 is what the PLAAF wants- the JF-17 is for Pakistan, to replace it's F-7 fighters (J-7 export version).

I'd call the J-10 an early-block F-16C equivalent- with better manueverability all round and a roughly equivalent kit, but not much in the way of gold-plating. Note that the reference to the TVC AL-31F engine is the AL-31FN, which is being produced and provided by the Russians. As is the Zhemchoug radar from Phazotron (a Zhuk-M derivative, not a bad radar but not on the cutting edge by any means- it has a cheaper planar array antenna than the more modern phased arrays developed lately- not shoddy in terms of ability to track and engage targets though).

[Patrick Degan]

Belknap was drenched in blazing jet fuel which also was hot enough to melt steel. And contrary to myth aluminum has never burned in a warship fire.

I said that aluminium warships were highly vulnerable to shipboard fires, and while aluminium may not burn it does melt rather easily. Aluminium has a melting point of around 1480°F, where most steel alloys have melting points of around 2500°F, and worse shipboard fires aboard the destroyers USS Laffley and USS Aaron Ward in World War II did not result in anywhere near the level of structural damage as suffered by the Belknap, whose topside works were razed right down to her main steel deck.

The example of the Belknap disaster was directly attributable to the British Royal Navy's decision to discontinue the use of aluminium in warship construction after 1977.

[StarshipTitanic]

So Mars really will be the Red Planet then?

Yellow.

I'd just LOVE to see Mike's reaction to that. And this whole thread, for that matter.

Oh please, like no one on this site has said off-color jokes before.

[Bob McDob]

Normally I'd make fun of France's practice of surrendering here, but I can't seem to tie it into China. Can somebody help me out?

Dien Bien Phu?

(Hey, Vietnam was part of China at one point)

[Admiral Valdemar]

Normally I'd make fun of France's practice of surrendering here, but I can't seem to tie it into China. Can somebody help me out?

Dien Bien Phu?

(Hey, Vietnam was part of China at one point)

Ugh, what a disaster.

[Bob McDob]

Ugh, what a disaster.

Your first mistake was in not killing him first.

[Iceberg]

I've been sitting on this comment for days, but when I look at the thread header, I think, "China sends space into man? What's so new about that? All you need is an AK-47 to fill a man full of new spaces."

[phongn]

Normally I'd make fun of France's practice of surrendering here, but I can't seem to tie it into China. Can somebody help me out?

Dien Bien Phu?

(Hey, Vietnam was part of China at one point)

That was a looong time ago.