A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[Batman]

Happy you brought this up. Right after the skin tight shield went up this happened:
http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... t-2/page14
Shows direct metal on metal interactions.

Um no it doesn't? It shows sparks. Yeah sparkly things happening when something hits a shield.We totally haven't seen that before.

[Jm81]

my point was that you should show that there's M/AM that are both high yield enough to actually signifigantly harm SW warships and small enough to be able to be deployed from a shuttle sized vessel (this includes the runabouts but not the Defiant class(or similar sized ships like the BOP)) as anything larger is too big to employ this tactic anyway.

photon torps while m/am weapons have nowhere near the yield to really harm the larger SW ships, having a max theoretical yield of 64 Mt with actual practical yield seeming to be high kt or low Mt at best.

As I've stated several times in this thread anti-matter IS NOT MAGIC and there's limits to it's use.

oh and I never suggested that you'd need to vaporize or even utterly destroy a SW warship, just harm it enough to force it to retreat or cripple it for any signifigant time.

I agree there are limits to its uses. As well as limits to what i can do to a warship. But its yield isn't why its used. ST doesn't have the energy output to harm SW armored hulls. It is the annihilation reaction that is key. Gram for gram, pound for pound, Kilo for kilo and that mass which was the armor becomes energy E=m*c^2.

What are the upper limits? I don't know, that depends on how much is used and how they weaponize it. A bomb or pulse may be less effective than a thin particle stream of anti-protons in penetrating the armor and getting to more vital systems.

[Jm81]

Happy you brought this up. Right after the skin tight shield went up this happened:
http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... t-2/page14
Shows direct metal on metal interactions.

Um no it doesn't? It shows sparks. Yeah sparkly things happening when something hits a shield.We totally haven't seen that before.

Strange, we didn't see sparks here:
Time stamp: 1:00 - 1:15 (Brian's video) when matter passed through and failed to pass through an energy shield. So if matter interaction with a shield doesn't yield sparks and we know metal on metal does....

You get the point.

[Lord Revan]

considering that the only weapon we know to certainly use anti-matter is a photon torpedo and it has only 3 kg m/am warhead (2*1.5kg) and it's the largest AM weapon we see regulary deployed suggest the limit is close to 3 kg or so which wouldn't be enought o actually harm a larger SW warship.

as for a particle beam, well we never get a clear indication that such a thing is possible to deploy in any reasonble timeframe (disruptors are generally suggested to work in similar but not identical way to phasers, so the process might cause trace amounts of antimatter to appear as a side effect), also the yield of particle beam is important as you won't have endless amount of time to do damage until you're detected by following the beam itself to its source.

[Batman]

You obviously don't. Here's something to spur your imagination-a single 200GT MTL bolt from a Clone Wars era troop transport has the same energy as 9.3 tons of M/AM at perfect reaction efficiency and all of it delivered to the target.
Not that you have yet established how they'd get past the shields, mind you.

[Batman]

Happy you brought this up. Right after the skin tight shield went up this happened:
http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... t-2/page14
Shows direct metal on metal interactions.

Um no it doesn't? It shows sparks. Yeah sparkly things happening when something hits a shield.We totally haven't seen that before.

Strange, we didn't see sparks here:
Time stamp: 1:00 - 1:15 (Brian's video) when matter passed through and failed to pass through an energy shield. So if matter interaction with a shield doesn't yield sparks and we know metal on metal does....
You get the point.

Yep. That since there's one single incident of it not happening, you blithely assume it never does. And I can't help but noticing that you seem to rely almost exclusively on Brian's video, which...uses mostly Clone Wars cartoon footage which is moderately irrelevant to what Imperial era shields can do?

[Jm81]

considering that the only weapon we know to certainly use anti-matter is a photon torpedo and it has only 3 kg m/am warhead (2*1.5kg) and it's the largest AM weapon we see regulary deployed suggest the limit is close to 3 kg or so which wouldn't be enought o actually harm a larger SW warship.

as for a particle beam, well we never get a clear indication that such a thing is possible to deploy in any reasonble timeframe (disruptors are generally suggested to work in similar but not identical way to phasers, so the process might cause trace amounts of antimatter to appear as a side effect), also the yield of particle beam is important as you won't have endless amount of time to do damage until you're detected by following the beam itself to its source.

The limit is however large they want to make a container that has some sort of energy containment or perhaps. The limit is set by what mass they want to carry on a ship. Romulan disruptors are antimatter weapons. And as I have posted already in Brian's link the romulan disruptor as stated by Riker is an antimatter weapon.

[Jm81]

You obviously don't. Here's something to spur your imagination-a single 200GT MTL bolt from a Clone Wars era troop transport has the same energy as 9.3 tons of M/AM at perfect reaction efficiency and all of it delivered to the target.
Not that you have yet established how they'd get past the shields, mind you.

I would point to time stamp 5:45 - 6:50 of Brian's video.
I would point to time stamp 8:18 - 8:25 of Brian's video.
I would point to time stamp 10:28 - 10:59 of Brian's video.

All times of canon evidence of small ships passing through SW shields with mention of those shields being up and having to be taken out (and taken down in some cases).

At this point if you don't see that SW shields can by passed through by small ships then you are being willfully ignorant and we might as well part ways in this conversation being nothing will change your mind.

[Jm81]

Yep. That since there's one single incident of it not happening, you blithely assume it never does. And I can't help but noticing that you seem to rely almost exclusively on Brian's video, which...uses mostly Clone Wars cartoon footage which is moderately irrelevant to what Imperial era shields can do?

Is there now a rule that I need to show two examples of canon evidence? How about three? Or maybe four? Or maybe it will always be one more than I show so you can choose not to accept canon evidence.

[Batman]

considering that the only weapon we know to certainly use anti-matter is a photon torpedo and it has only 3 kg m/am warhead (2*1.5kg) and it's the largest AM weapon we see regulary deployed suggest the limit is close to 3 kg or so which wouldn't be enought o actually harm a larger SW warship.
as for a particle beam, well we never get a clear indication that such a thing is possible to deploy in any reasonble timeframe (disruptors are generally suggested to work in similar but not identical way to phasers, so the process might cause trace amounts of antimatter to appear as a side effect), also the yield of particle beam is important as you won't have endless amount of time to do damage until you're detected by following the beam itself to its source.

The limit is however large they want to make a container that has some sort of energy containment or perhaps.

No. The limit is however small they can make such a container while still containing enough M/AM to matter.

The limit is set by what mass they want to carry on a ship.

No, the limit is set by what mass they can carry on a ship.

Romulan disruptors are antimatter weapons. And as I have posted already in Brian's link the romulan disruptor as stated by Riker is an antimatter weapon.

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

[Batman]

You obviously don't. Here's something to spur your imagination-a single 200GT MTL bolt from a Clone Wars era troop transport has the same energy as 9.3 tons of M/AM at perfect reaction efficiency and all of it delivered to the target.
Not that you have yet established how they'd get past the shields, mind you.

I would point to time stamp 5:45 - 6:50 of Brian's video.
I would point to time stamp 8:18 - 8:25 of Brian's video.
I would point to time stamp 10:28 - 10:59 of Brian's video.
All times of canon evidence of small ships passing through SW shields with mention of those shields being up and having to be taken out (and taken down in some cases).
At this point if you don't see that SW shields can by passed through by small ships then you are being willfully ignorant and we might as well part ways in this conversation being nothing will change your mind.

Oh I can see that SW shields can be passed by small Star Wars ships, with Star Wars shields just fine. I'm just not sure why that's relevant to you claiming Trek ships will be able to.
Also, there's this pesky problem of all your evidence being from the Clone Wars, when what you're actually claiming is it would work on Imperial Era vessels?

[Batman]

Yep. That since there's one single incident of it not happening, you blithely assume it never does. And I can't help but noticing that you seem to rely almost exclusively on Brian's video, which...uses mostly Clone Wars cartoon footage which is moderately irrelevant to what Imperial era shields can do?

Is there now a rule that I need to show two examples of canon evidence? How about three? Or maybe four? Or maybe it will always be one more than I show so you can choose not to accept canon evidence.

I can show you a gazillion tons of canon evidence of something not happening. For example, there's maybe two minutes' worth of the Death Stars firing at something. By your reasoning, since the vast majority of the movies don't show the Death Stars firing, we should assume they never did.
No, I don't think you showing something didn't happen once quite suffices.

[Jm81]

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

Again you are reaching for some convoluted explanation to avoid the obvious. Data stated "extremely high levels" of antimatter were in the area. Riker honed in on that and stated... Romulan disruptors. Now I guess we could paint some technobabble-isk picture of how this is some biproduct and we would look as dumb as if we went to a crime scene and said OMG bullets are lodged in the walls of a house. They must be either be shooting these bullets OR have some [technobabble] weapon that leaves bullets as a biproduct!

Yes romulan disruptors are a/m weapons.

[Jm81]

Oh I can see that SW shields can be passed by small Star Wars ships, with Star Wars shields just fine. I'm just not sure why that's relevant to you claiming Trek ships will be able to.
Also, there's this pesky problem of all your evidence being from the Clone Wars, when what you're actually claiming is it would work on Imperial Era vessels?

Wow and so those little thermal grenades have their own little shields too!! WOWZA!! Thats pretty cool!
/face-palm

No the canon evidence clearly shows that a solid object with no special shielding can pass through SW shields if it has the right velocity.

[Jm81]

I can show you a gazillion tons of canon evidence of something not happening. For example, there's maybe two minutes' worth of the Death Stars firing at something. By your reasoning, since the vast majority of the movies don't show the Death Stars firing, we should assume they never did.
No, I don't think you showing something didn't happen once quite suffices.

Logical fallacy. The absence of an occurrence [deathstar not firing] doesn't disprove the possibility of an event from taking place. While it is NOT a logical fallacy to state that if said occurrence is observed [objects passing through shield] then said occurrence can occur.

try again.

[Lord Revan]

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

Again you are reaching for some convoluted explanation to avoid the obvious. Data stated "extremely high levels" of antimatter were in the area. Riker honed in on that and stated... Romulan disruptors. Now I guess we could paint some technobabble-isk picture of how this is some biproduct and we would look as dumb as if we went to a crime scene and said OMG bullets are lodged in the walls of a house. They must be either be shooting these bullets OR have some [technobabble] weapon that leaves bullets as a biproduct!

Yes romulan disruptors are a/m weapons.

no quite so, disruptors (both romulan and klingon) are often shown to have phaser like qualities and also it's never implied that hand disruptors are nothing more then ship disruptors scaled down to pistol or rifle size and they certainly are consistent with "similar to phasers" and not consistent with AM based weapons (for example they don't fry everyone in the room when "vaporizing" a target).

now lets review your evidence shall we. Now we know that ENT-D was meeting with a ship that had "cargo" that could greatly harm the Romulan Star Empire if UFP got it (I can't remember if ENT-D crew the nature of the cargo but that's irrelevant atm). now ENT-D arrives to the meeting spot but doesn't find the ship there, so the crew scans the area and find highly elevated levels of AM there, now any side effects disruptors have would be common knowlage with Starfleet officers and romulans did have a motive for taking out the ship (Enterprise crew didn't know about the inside man in the ship), now it doesn't take much to come to the conclution that the ships was takes out by romulan disruptors, since IIRC romulans don't use photon torps (their torps work on different princible).

[Xess]

It's also good to mention that almost ANY level of anti-matter floating around in a vacuum counts as highly elevated compared to the normal inter-planetary medium.

[Jm81]

no quite so, disruptors (both romulan and klingon) are often shown to have phaser like qualities and also it's never implied that hand disruptors are nothing more then ship disruptors scaled down to pistol or rifle size and they certainly are consistent with "similar to phasers" and not consistent with AM based weapons (for example they don't fry everyone in the room when "vaporizing" a target).

A thing never implied is not evidence. We see no evidence of a bathroom on the enterprise thus by the same logic shall we say its canon evidence that humans have evolved to a point where they don't ever take a dump? Of course not.

now lets review your evidence shall we. Now we know that ENT-D was meeting with a ship that had "cargo" that could greatly harm the Romulan Star Empire if UFP got it (I can't remember if ENT-D crew the nature of the cargo but that's irrelevant atm). now ENT-D arrives to the meeting spot but doesn't find the ship there, so the crew scans the area and find highly elevated levels of AM there, now any side effects disruptors have would be common knowlage with Starfleet officers and romulans did have a motive for taking out the ship (Enterprise crew didn't know about the inside man in the ship), now it doesn't take much to come to the conclution that the ships was takes out by romulan disruptors, since IIRC romulans don't use photon torps (their torps work on different princible).

Every thing in a show is planned. Every line in a script has a purpose. They specifically chose to connect the Data's analysis of antimatter to the romulan disruptor (only weapon fired) with Riker announcing that the antimatter meant romulan disruptor fire was present. For what purpose? So us nerds can dream up wild speculation of some exotic weapon that leaves anti-matter biproducts? Obviously not. Now you an choose to ignore this straight forward connection that the writers of star trek chose to make for some more fanciful explanation, but never forget the episode is was written not to be mysterious. It was written for TV viewers to draw a simple connection. Occum's razor is a great tool when dealing with episodes written for every day TV viewers.

[Jm81]

It's also good to mention that almost ANY level of anti-matter floating around in a vacuum counts as highly elevated compared to the normal inter-planetary medium.

Not so. Remember that Data wasn't analyzing space. It was a debris field. And the reference would probably be in relation to A/M found in debris fields.

[Lord Revan]

If Romulan ship board weapons are AM based then why do we never hear of anti-matter storage on-board romulan ships (their warp-cores are not M/AM based so that can't explain it) or at least I can't remember any such line.

also due to lack of secondary effects hand disruptors cannot be AM weapons, matter anhilated by AM turns into radiations and a high intencity radiation brust that would come from a body "vaporized" within the time frame it generally happens would kill anyone in the room and we know romulan hand disruptors can do that.

and IIRC there's times when the same weapon is called both a disruptor and a phaser suggesting similarity.

as for you second statement, there was a reason, to give the crew a "clue" as to what was happening without it seeming too convoluted, it's as simple as that, the AM was a "footprint" for the crew to follow, there was never (as far as I know) intention to imply anything else that romulan disruptors cause elevated AM levels and can identified by that.

[Batman]

It's also good to mention that almost ANY level of anti-matter floating around in a vacuum counts as highly elevated compared to the normal inter-planetary medium.

Not so. Remember that Data wasn't analyzing space. It was a debris field. And the reference would probably be in relation to A/M found in debris fields.

And what a debris field out in space mostly made out of? Oh, that's right. Empty space. As for antimatter on the actual debris, there wouldn't be any on account of it having reacted with the matter of the debris, genius.

[Batman]

I can show you a gazillion tons of canon evidence of something not happening. For example, there's maybe two minutes' worth of the Death Stars firing at something. By your reasoning, since the vast majority of the movies don't show the Death Stars firing, we should assume they never did.
No, I don't think you showing something didn't happen once quite suffices.

Logical fallacy. The absence of an occurrence [deathstar not firing] doesn't disprove the possibility of an event from taking place. While it is NOT a logical fallacy to state that if said occurrence is observed [objects passing through shield] then said occurrence can occur.
try again.

I don't have to. What is actually observed are sparks, nothing more, something hardly a unique observation when dealing with shields. That this indicated shield penetration is nothing but your conjecture.
Despite the fact that you're apparently too stupid to understand it, disruptors cannot possibly be antimatter weapons because their effects are completely incompatible with what an actual antimatter weapon would do. What they do is phaser magic painted green, something that I think the writers of Trek (at least prior to VOY) understand a lot better than you do.
Also the intent of the writers is, to put it bluntly, completely irrelevant. What you see is what you get, and what we got was disruptors that couldn't possibly be AM weapons.

[Batman]

Oh I can see that SW shields can be passed by small Star Wars ships, with Star Wars shields just fine. I'm just not sure why that's relevant to you claiming Trek ships will be able to.
Also, there's this pesky problem of all your evidence being from the Clone Wars, when what you're actually claiming is it would work on Imperial Era vessels?

No the canon evidence clearly shows that a solid object with no special shielding can pass through SW shields if it has the right velocity.

Um-no.The canon evidence shows a solid object with no special shielding can go through Clone Wars era Droideka shields. This means the same applies to Imperial Era capital ship shields-oh, wait, it doesn't, it's actually you who has to show that.

[The Dark]

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

Again you are reaching for some convoluted explanation to avoid the obvious. Data stated "extremely high levels" of antimatter were in the area. Riker honed in on that and stated... Romulan disruptors. Now I guess we could paint some technobabble-isk picture of how this is some biproduct and we would look as dumb as if we went to a crime scene and said OMG bullets are lodged in the walls of a house. They must be either be shooting these bullets OR have some [technobabble] weapon that leaves bullets as a biproduct!

Yes romulan disruptors are a/m weapons.

By that logic, Abrams tanks carry nuclear weapons - when they fire a DU shell, it leaves extremely high levels of radiation (compared to the normal background count). Therefore, American tanks use nuclear weapons.

Or you're a blithering idiot.

[Jm81]

If Romulan ship board weapons are AM based then why do we never hear of anti-matter storage on-board romulan ships (their warp-cores are not M/AM based so that can't explain it) or at least I can't remember any such line.

Because the writers never put it in a script line. But they did choose to have Riker state a blurb how a/m clearly indicated the ship was destroyed by a romulan disruptor.

also due to lack of secondary effects hand disruptors cannot be AM weapons, matter anhilated by AM turns into radiations and a high intencity radiation brust that would come from a body "vaporized" within the time frame it generally happens would kill anyone in the room and we know romulan hand disruptors can do that.

I do not assert that hand disruptors utilize AM. A hand held disruptor may be very different. Don't get too hung up on the name. Just as a 'Turbolaser' isn't a laser despite it being in its name.

as for you second statement, there was a reason, to give the crew a "clue" as to what was happening without it seeming too convoluted, it's as simple as that, the AM was a "footprint" for the crew to follow, there was never (as far as I know) intention to imply anything else that romulan disruptors cause elevated AM levels and can identified by that.

Yes, they put in Data's analysis to show the crew having figured out what had happened. And they also put in Riker's comment that AM was a direct result of romulan disruptor fire.

On the other hand, as a side note, the resultant bombardment of the Dominion home world in "The Die is Cast" would be physically impossible with the known ST reactor output levels unless they were actually utilizing AM weapons. So not only is there direct canon evidence of this, but it also fixes contradictions in the lore for events that took place in The Die is Cast DS9.