Dyson Sphere

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-08-30 06:56pm

So it's a worthless term? Fabulous!

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-08-30 08:21pm

Anyone care to take a guess at how thick those doors are? I only ask because they apparently dismiss out of hand any thought of shooting a hole through it to escape.

If the materials barely any stronger than their own a few torpedoes would have set them free.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-08-30 10:30pm

Lost Soal wrote:Anyone care to take a guess at how thick those doors are? I only ask because they apparently dismiss out of hand any thought of shooting a hole through it to escape.

If the materials barely any stronger than their own a few torpedoes would have set them free.

The sphere was partially made out of neutronium which makes their weapons essentially useless against it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-30 10:32pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:Anyone care to take a guess at how thick those doors are? I only ask because they apparently dismiss out of hand any thought of shooting a hole through it to escape.

If the materials barely any stronger than their own a few torpedoes would have set them free.
The sphere was partially made out of neutronium which makes their weapons essentially useless against it.

Only a miniscule fraction of it could have been neutronium, otherwise it would have created an enormous gravity well. It's probably just tiny particles of neutronium embedded in the structure, and the structure probably requires some sort of active reinforcement just to hold itself together.

Of course, that's assuming their readings are even accurate. It's not as if they took a sample of the structural material onboard and performed more tests on it, and their sensors are not omniscient.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-08-30 10:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:Only a miniscule fraction of it could have been neutronium, otherwise it would have created an enormous gravity well. It's probably just tiny particles of neutronium embedded in the structure, and the structure probably requires some sort of active reinforcement just to hold itself together.

Assuming Trek neutronium is the same thing as real neutronium which we have pretty conclusive evidence it isn't (Doomsday machine anyone? "Solid" neutronium?)

Of course, that's assuming their readings are even accurate. It's not as if they took a sample of the structural material onboard and performed more tests on it, and their sensors are not omniscient.

All too true.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-08-31 11:13am

I have to wonder if the superlaser blast would punch through in a manner similar to 'All good things', where a blast punches a hole straight through and keeps on going, only making a beam-sized hole, or whether it would instead propagate outwards on impact, destroying an area proportional to the size of the yield, if I can describe it right.
Think of it as an analogy with bullets between standard rounds that go straight through the target causing lots of harm but not delivering all the energy into the target versus a high-velocity round that fragments on impact, dumping all the energy into the target causing huge damage.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-31 01:18pm

On very large scales, the "hole drilling" idea may not work too well. When you're lasering through sheet metal, the amount of vapour is small and easily evacuated from the path of the beam. But if you're talking about a huge superlaser carving through large chunks of thick masses of structural material, it takes time for that vapour to get out of the way, and in the meantime it will tend to absorb more energy, become explosively super-energized, etc. I don't think it's possible to get a clean drilling effect on large scales at high speeds. Something's got to give; you either get an explosive effect at point of contact or you slow down your drilling operation.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2006-08-31 08:54pm

Darth Wong wrote: Only a miniscule fraction of it could have been neutronium, otherwise it would have created an enormous gravity well. It's probably just tiny particles of neutronium embedded in the structure, and the structure probably requires some sort of active reinforcement just to hold itself together.

Wasn't the gravity well detected by the Enterprise at extreme range? It's been a very long time since I've seen that episode, but that might be useful information.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-08-31 09:08pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Only a miniscule fraction of it could have been neutronium, otherwise it would have created an enormous gravity well. It's probably just tiny particles of neutronium embedded in the structure, and the structure probably requires some sort of active reinforcement just to hold itself together.
Wasn't the gravity well detected by the Enterprise at extreme range? It's been a very long time since I've seen that episode, but that might be useful information.

I seem to recall they were almost on top of it before they detected it.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-31 09:24pm

This is from memory so feel free to prove me wrong but IIRC they did detect the Dyson Sphere from quite a distance away. They were forced out of Warp more or less on top of it but the detection happened long before that.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-08-31 09:33pm

Batman wrote:This is from memory so feel free to prove me wrong but IIRC they did detect the Dyson Sphere from quite a distance away. They were forced out of Warp more or less on top of it but the detection happened long before that.

The series of events were:

- Data identifies the distress signal from the Jenolan
- Picard orders them to drop out of warp, all stop
- The ship is rocked as they drop out of warp
- Worf says they've entered a massive gravitational field
- Data mentions there's no known stars or stellar bodies in the area and Picard asks him to localize the source of the gravitational field
- We cut to our first shot of the Dyson Sphere which looks like this:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3801 ... ereqp5.jpg

- Data states how large it is and Riker notes it's almost as large as Earths orbit around the sun
- Picard asks why they didn't detect it before now
- Data states the objects enormous mass caused a great deal of gravimetric interference which may have prevented their sensors from detecting it before they dropped out of warp.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-08-31 09:35pm

Well, looks like I was wrong. Thanks, vivftp.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-09-11 04:33am

vivftp wrote:http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3801 ... ereqp5.jpg

What's lighting it, I wonder, if there are no stars or star-like things nearby.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-11 04:40am

Maybe there's a nearby star, or maybe it is for some reason, dumping heat (and light) unevenly across its surface, creating that effect.

phred · Post by **phred** » 2006-09-11 07:51am

Lost Soal wrote:Does anyone else other than the feds actually use them? I don't recall them ever being mentioned on DS9 for either the station or any of the Klingon ships.

IIRC DS9 had structural integrity fields that ere an extension of the defensive systems... or was it the other way around? it was discussed early in the first season, cant remember which episode exactly though

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-11 10:51pm

Quick question since we were discussing Trek neutronium at the start of this thread and some were trying to work out some mass calcs for the Dyson Sphere.

Now since we know what they call neutronium in Trek is stellar matter that's been built-up on the surface of a neutron star, then when it's expelled it begins to degrade, can we guess an approx. density? Reason being if Trek neutronium is also incredibly dense shouldn't it affect any calcs trying to work out the Spheres mass? Of course we also don't know what percentage of the spheres shell is neutronium and what's carbon - but what might be considered a conservative estimate? It'd have to be enough so that the Enterprises couldn't just use their weapons to punch a hole in the shell since they immediately ruled out that possibility in the episode.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-12 12:53am

vivftp wrote:Quick question since we were discussing Trek neutronium at the start of this thread and some were trying to work out some mass calcs for the Dyson Sphere.

Now since we know what they call neutronium in Trek is stellar matter that's been built-up on the surface of a neutron star, then when it's expelled it begins to degrade, can we guess an approx. density? Reason being if Trek neutronium is also incredibly dense shouldn't it affect any calcs trying to work out the Spheres mass? Of course we also don't know what percentage of the spheres shell is neutronium and what's carbon - but what might be considered a conservative estimate? It'd have to be enough so that the Enterprises couldn't just use their weapons to punch a hole in the shell since they immediately ruled out that possibility in the episode.

You really think you can generate a valid numerical estimate or even a set of upper and lower bounds based on these vague premises? Why not try to estimate how large "really big" is?

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-12 01:07am

Darth Wong wrote: You really think you can generate a valid numerical estimate or even a set of upper and lower bounds based on these vague premises? Why not try to estimate how large "really big" is?

Me? Not a chance in the world

That's why I wanted to ask the plausibility of that sort of plan

I guess it won't work out due to lack of sufficient data, but could we at least say the addition of the neutronium should make the sphere more massive than the earlier calcs showed?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-12 01:13am

vivftp wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You really think you can generate a valid numerical estimate or even a set of upper and lower bounds based on these vague premises? Why not try to estimate how large "really big" is?
Me? Not a chance in the world

That's why I wanted to ask the plausibility of that sort of plan

I guess it won't work out due to lack of sufficient data, but could we at least say the addition of the neutronium should make the sphere more massive than the earlier calcs showed?

Why? In Star Trek, neutronium can be "solid"; that right there indicates that its meaning has pretty much nothing to do with the real meaning.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-12 01:18am

Darth Wong wrote: Why? In Star Trek, neutronium can be "solid"; that right there indicates that its meaning has pretty much nothing to do with the real meaning.

Well from what I understand neutron star matter is in some sort of liquid-like state (correct me if I'm using the wrong term). But what Trek calls neutronium was normal star matter compressed on the surface of a neutron star. I've heard theories from others saying that the extreme gravity of the neutron star would compress the stellar matter into a liquid-like material similar to normal neutron star matter. Would that be accurate? Or do we lack any way to really tell?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-12 01:32am

vivftp wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Why? In Star Trek, neutronium can be "solid"; that right there indicates that its meaning has pretty much nothing to do with the real meaning.
Well from what I understand neutron star matter is in some sort of liquid-like state (correct me if I'm using the wrong term). But what Trek calls neutronium was normal star matter compressed on the surface of a neutron star. I've heard theories from others saying that the extreme gravity of the neutron star would compress the stellar matter into a liquid-like material similar to normal neutron star matter. Would that be accurate? Or do we lack any way to really tell?

Solidity is actually an unusual state of matter in the universe. Most things are fluid, including the interior of neutron stars, which can be treated much like a giant atomic nucleus. While there may be some crusty compressed solid material on the outside of the neutron star, that should not be assumed to have unusual properties once removed from the neutron star.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-12 01:43am

Hmm... well the neutronium in TNG's Evolution was decaying as it was expelled from the neutron star at relatavistic speeds... I've heard opposing theories that once matter is removed from the extreme gravity it will either decay or somehow hold itself together (damned if I can recall how they justified that conclusion - I just read it in passing).

But if this were matter compressed in the extreme gravity that is the surface of a neutron star, and it's known to decay once it leaves that environment then do you think that could mean it was extremely dense whilst on the star?

If so then I guess the next question would be in what state do Trek races utilize this neutronium - do they have a way to preserve it in its extremely dense form, or do they utilize it in a lesser dense form?

Anyways... I think made some sense in those questions

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-12 01:51am

vivftp wrote:Hmm... well the neutronium in TNG's Evolution was decaying as it was expelled from the neutron star at relatavistic speeds... I've heard opposing theories that once matter is removed from the extreme gravity it will either decay or somehow hold itself together (damned if I can recall how they justified that conclusion - I just read it in passing).

Nuclei with very large numbers of neutrons are not stable. I'm not a nuclear physicist myself so I can't tell you exactly why, but that's a well-known observation. So it will radiate material until it becomes a stable element, and it might undergo fission at some point during this process.

But if this were matter compressed in the extreme gravity that is the surface of a neutron star, and it's known to decay once it leaves that environment then do you think that could mean it was extremely dense whilst on the star?

If it was solid, it never became degenerate matter. It was just highly compressed, and will "bounce back" immediately upon leaving the gravity well.

If so then I guess the next question would be in what state do Trek races utilize this neutronium - do they have a way to preserve it in its extremely dense form, or do they utilize it in a lesser dense form?

If it's stable, and especially if it can be made into solid objects, it's probably just a heavy element that was once part of a neutron star. In Star Trek there are islands of stability at high atomic numbers, so perhaps neutronium has simply decayed to one of these super-heavy elements.

vivftp · Post by **vivftp** » 2006-09-12 01:55am

Ahh ok - thanks for the clarification and information. It was quite helpful

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2006-09-12 08:13am

Yeah, in the Voyager episode "emanations" there was a mention of an element with a nuclear mass of 550 that was stable and it was theorised that it could be used for casings of probes that could be sent into the centre of a star or make ultra-thin reactor shielding.

As for the nuclear decay, a very large nucleus will break down into smaller nuclei, with a small fraction of the mass being converted into energy. The most stable nuclei are around about iron, which doesn't readily undergo fusion or fission (thus when fusion in stars reaches this point, there's little material left to fuse at least in the core, I believe).

I have to wonder that when the star inside the sphere reaches this point and presumably becomes a red giant and thus grow in size similar to or greater than the sphere itself, what would happen to the sphere, whether it would survive.