brianeyci wrote:Stofsk wrote:So the weak are allowed to fall and the helpless are allowed to be destroyed as of Picard's era. In Kirk's era, if a prewarp civ had something the UFP wanted, they came in and traded with them.
Gee, that's a heck of a switch in priorities. What happened?
The prime directive is still mentioned in the TOS UFP. One assumes that the so-called pre-warp civilizations are actually warp, unless explicitly stated that they are pre-warp.
Organians; preindustrial society (it was an illusion, but that was revealed at the end of the episode).
But I love the assumptions you make. "They must have been warp civs, even when they need Kirk to come to them, and not the other way around!"
Because my explaination doesn't introduce a shitload of unknown variables. Academy racial profiling is only in one instance, with the Ferengi, and may not be taken seriously given that no Federation officer goes "He's Ferengi, we shouldn't trust him". Sisko had no problems with Jake hanging out with Nog.
You're either being dishonest, or you didn't watch the show. Sisko had problems with Jake hanging out with Nog, he just didn' t forbid it.
Marquis colonies -- how many, how large?
Irrelevant. If my government gave away a part of the north which only consisted of a couple of townships to Indonesia, I would not take it as a sign that we are a strong or proud nation.
Leyton -- personal power, and desire to counter the Dominion threat with a more effective military.
It's treason, and it shows that the Federation doesn't inspire loyalty in the upper echelons of command. Captain Picard committed an insurrection against Admiral Doherty. He also betrayed Admiral Pressman's phase-cloak to the Romulans.
Who the hell said it was healthy? I said my situation supposes the Federation is stable, or increasing in prosperity. Your situation proposes that the Federation is fractured, and doesn't inspire loyalty, when there are numerous examples to the contrary.
Stormbringer points out that a truly stable society is rare, and points out the differences between TOS UFP and TNG UFP.
Can you note all the times when officers stand by their Captains despite stupid decisions?
Irrelevant. They are showing loyalty to their Captain, NOT their King.
And what were the size of these colonies? How large were they? Is it a heavily industrialized world or just some backwater?
You are confusing the issue by introducing needless variables, something you ironically were accusing me of. The Maquis colonies were a part of the Federation, which bargained them away for a few years peace which ended up being nothing but a temporary lull in hostilities.
Stunning rebuttal. I didn't make hasty generalisations, and you didn't prove I had. Falsely attributing this to my argument is a sign of dishonest debating.
You did. Do you want me to bring up examples?
This ought to be comical.
The Federation seems to have a weak society and culture, one that doesn't inspire loyalty
You base this on a few examples of traitorous officers, as if SF represented the whole Federation, and you also ignore the evidence which points to SF loyalty,
Hang on, you were the one bullshiting how 'SF and Federation are interchangeable!' if so, then those examples I provided are valid. As to evidence of SF loyalty, we see officers remain loyal to their CAPTAIN, not their KING. Ie, they're immediately loyal to Captain Picard, Sisko, Kirk etc, but if it's a choice between them and the Federation, they stick to their captain. This isn't a sign of loyalty to the Federation, but the reverse.
one which doesn't give it's citizens an outlet for their feelings (24th C man has no balls, but more than that, no-one has any real feelings on anything
As if your impression of certain ball-less officers makes it valid that the whole Federation doesn't have balls,
As if that's a rebutall. You missed my Keiko example. This is a culture that finds the use of real meat in cooking to be disgusting.
The UFP is a homogenised mess of beige-coloured hallways and white coloured buildings; spotless and septic-clean
As if your impression of Starfleet, clearly a military organization which would have such spartan surroundings, represents what's in store in Federation civilian life,
Slow down, Mister Hasty Generalisation! I thought YOU were the one who was pointing out Starfleet and Federation are INTERCHANGEABLE?
Like living in a hospital all your life; a hospital is a place of extreme cleanliness, for obvious reasons, but if you extend that image out to the whole of society, then what you've got is a society obsessed with keeping it's people the same
Again see above,
Why? You didn't counter the point at all. Where is the graffiti? Where is the rock concerts? The poetry recitals in the parks? Where is the cinema complexes and big budget films? Where are the celebrities? We see them put endless SHAKESPEARE plays up, but nothing else! Where is the Federation Culture, brian?
Couple this with the Prime Directive: the upper echelons of SFC know this weakness in Federation society, and so make illegal any form of unauthorised contact with other civilisations (pre-warp for instance),
As if you know what happens when there is illegal contact with an alien species.
It's in the canon, dipshit. The Omega Glory, Captain Tracy did illegal shit.
You actually ignore the fact that Picard had at least 7 prime directive violations, and explained his way out of them.
And in the episode with Worf's brother, he happily committed xenocide in the name of upholding said PD.
We have yet to see a Federation Captain jailed for violating the Prime Directive.
What the fuck do you think happened to Captain Tracy, numbskull?
yet those that ARE warp civs are classed into the hostile race bracket
As if a few warp civs which are in the "hostile race" bracket proves that all warp civs are in the hostile race bracket.
It was a theory that fits certain trends we see develop. Not all warp civs are put into the hostile race bracket. But some are, without contacting them.
The prime directive was still active in TOS era. Unless there is explicit evidence to the contrary, societies are warp if Kirk is talking to them. The few examples we have of him violating it, so what, Picard violated the Prime Directive just as many times.
Organia, prewarp.
Capellans, prewarp.
Tyree's people, prewarp.
Picard on the other hand refused contact between himself and other prewarp civilisations. Even heartily stood back and committed xenocide.
Everyone states themselves as a Federation citizen.
Meanwhile, officers defect, colonies secede, other colonies refuse to integrate and prefer their independence. The Federation obviously doesn't inspire great loyalty.
Again, hasty generalization fallacy based on an unrepresentative sample. You take a few officers disloyalty and expand it ad infinitum, and say the Fed doesn't inspire loyalty, even though we have officers and crew willing to die to protect the principles of the Federation. The rebellious ones are vastly outnumbered by the loyal ones.
Rubbish. We see a Captain inspire loyalty. Or did Captain Sulu disobey SFC when he assisted Captain Kirk, who was wanted for questioning, by upholding Federation principles? When Sisko ordered planetary bombardment of the Maquis colonies? He was acting alone, but the crew supported him.What about Admiral Leyton? He was a upper echelon admiral who committed treason.
So what, that doesn't mean that the Federation is anything more than a military alliance with a common council to decide defense and interstellar matters.
So explain how if it was just a mere military alliance, why is there a Federation President and not a Earth President? Give up.
Too bad, unless you have canon evidence of what this council is directly responsible for, its not acceptable.
You truly are a little shit. It is directly responsible for representation of member worlds. In so doing, they reflect the Federation's governance. Or what do you think these councilman do all day?
Canon Fact : We know Starfleet is interchangable with Federation, and this is more than just an exchange of words like American vs USN (See DW quote).
Excellent, so I can use Starfleet as an accurate representation of the Federation.
Since, AS YOU SAY, they are interchangeable.
Canon Fact : We know that Starfleet is responsible for defense and interstellar matters.
All aboard the Obvious Train, direct to Duhs-ville.
Canon Fact : We know that Starfleet couldn't possibly excercise great influence over member worlds because of its lack of a force that can hold ground, and that it can't threaten every world with a General Order 24.
Rubbish. A Federal government doesn't need to exercise great influence over state-level polities by having an army. This is completely retarded.
So what do we have? Starfleet/Federation being an organization that does not replace or even overpower member worlds' authorities in local matters, but is responsible for defense. That is all we can say.
No it is not.
You say the Federation has the authority to impose its will in the form of telling all planets not to explore on their own. It is not just the autonomy, it is the level of autonomy. Ontario for example can't begin negotiations with a foreign country on international relations. You have yet to show that the Federation excercises this type of control over its member states.
This is ridiculous. The Federation exercises all forms of executive level power, while state level planets are left autonomous. What about this is so hard to grasp?
Riker having to call the Vulcans to call off attacking Vulcan ships, and we hear "Vulcan Defense ships responding", I'll fetch a quote if you want.
It doesn't prove anything. The fact they responded at all means Starfleet has jurisdiction, further they could have been the Star Trek equivalent of a coast guard, or a private security group. Or just a local law enforcement ship. You know, the police. It doesn't show the level of autonomy required to be considered a Confederation, which is what you seem to be implying.
Don't call Batman over, although he usually follows me around wherever I go so he'll be here soon.
Kind of what you're doing with me, eh? Interesting form of projection you've got going, Brian.
And no, it depends on the level of autonomy. Ontario does not maintain its own independent defense force.
I'm sure Ontario maintains it's own local police force, however.
You don't have any direct evidence for your hypothesis that the Federation is weak, other than conjecture.
I've provided plenty of evidence; you've simply ignored them.
Which makes it dubious and open to intepretation. If you had direct evidence on the inner workings of the Federation and the average life of a Federation citizen, I would be more willing to accept your hospital dreary life fractured theory.
We see it everywhere, there are civilians aboard the Enterprise, DS9, we see Earth, the hallways of power in Starfleet and the President's office, New Orleans, we see all these things, and it shows us a picture of a world that's septic clean and devoid of any trace of graffiti, posters, culture, anything.
Only martial law on Earth. We do not know if it is the same all over the Federation.
You're being especially dense today. He enacts martial law on earth, that is true.
Hey moron, he was called the FEDERATION PRESIDENT, NOT THE EARTH PRESIDENT.
Vulcan has its own warships, Riker had to call them off and later they responded (episode with Romulan invasion of Vulcan, I'll get details when I get home). Doesn't that shoot a hole through your Federated states theory?
Nope. They could have been a Starfleet reserve ship, a police ship, private security, anything. Since they responded to, and likely seems to have obeyed, a federation capital ship I defer on the side that this is irrelevant.
It is not autonomy or no autonomy, there are different levels of autonomy and you have yet to show that member planets are subservent to the Federation in any other role than defense.
This is nonsensical.
Fine, I concede the culture point, although I believe it quite awkward to talk about Federation culture in general rather than specific cultures.
However, the EU does have citizenship.
Yes, EU citizenship. Like Federation citizenship. But we don't see Federation culture.
Yes I am, I am showing that the Federation is Starfleet aka defense force.
Bravo, so we can apply the spartan austere surroundings of Starfleet warships to apply across the board.
But, your theory paints the Federation to be inherently unstable, and we know the Federation exists into the 29th Century and is still a major power in the 29th Century so your theory is weaker than any theory that promotes stability or expansion.
The Federation of 29th C is likely different to the Federation of 24th C. It's also irrelevant.
For every example you bring of disloyalty, I can bring up another example of loyalty. Do you want to play that game?
With you? No. You'll just fuck it up.
Of course not. The power of sex is not just the power of sex, but the power to create an illusory environment so alluring as to be perfectly indistingiushable from the real world.
Meanwhile, Picard can tell the difference between real cavier and replicated cavier.
The Prime Directive is explained by the logical reason why someone would want to hold back technology from other people -- to keep the technology to themselves, and to keep their potential enemies starved.
It's described specifically as 'cultural contamination'. No dice. It's also a two-way street, or if you think that only the colonised are contaminated, you need to read up on colonisation history.
Too bad, definitions don't mean shit or turbolasers would be lasers.
You truly are an idiot. Definitions do mean shit, just not for TECHNICAL DISCUSSIONS, which have their OWN definitions. Christ.
No. Just because the Federation gives away a few fringe colony worlds that may originally have been Cardassian territory, that does not make them weak. They may be trading away their territory strategically for other territory, or they may have been losing the war and therefore were forced to make peace prematurely.
"they may have been losing the war, so they're not weak!"
Do you even think before you write?
Definitions mean shit, we get canon evidence the Federation is a defense organization and nothing more. Common interface means bullshit. So does a council and a President who can enact martial law on Earth.
Handwavium.
Trillions of Federation citizens is from Bashir's friends calculating that 900 billion citizens would need to die before the Federation considered surrender, also using the 150 member worlds as a benchmark and multiplying by 5-10 billion each.
Interesting assumption. Not supported by canon, at all, but nice to see that doesn't stop you. 900 billion citizens is not 'trillions of people'.
Billions of SF personnel is from a quote from Alyeska. Want me to dig it up?
Generally speaking when you introduce evidence you ARE required to dig it up. I'm not doing your homework for you.
Not that this point matters, anyway, since it's irrelevant.
Few disgruntled citizens on the border is based on what we see of the Marquis. We don't get the impression that this is a rebellion by whole worlds. And no, a few fringe colonies does not mean fully industrialized worlds are rebelling against the Cardassians. If the Marquis were so vast, they wouldn't have needed to raid for medical supplies from Ent-D.
Irrelevant. They were colonists, Federation citizens, and deserved Federation defence. They didn't get it, and you don't think the Federation is weak because of it. Hmm...
Starfleet officers are the 'face' of the Federation; they are it's AMBASSADORS. When a SF captain beams down and negotiates with another civilisation, he's doing it by representing his government before him. Their views apply towards understanding the workings of the Federation and it's views and values.
Sure, it applies to how they train SF officers to deal with other cultures. It does not apply to the entire Federation as a whole.
Yes it does; you were the one screaming that the Federation and SF are 'interchangeable!' as though that meant a damn thing. You opened that pandora's box, you fucking close it, dumbshit.
If I was a troll, I'd be long gone.
I'm counting the days, believe me.
Too bad, so sad, your view of the Federation is based on unrepresentative sample and not equating Federation to SF but some "Federated States" which is completely unsupported by canon.
Here we come to Brianeyci's view of canon events: "They have to spell it out for dumbarses like myself who can't fucking connect the dots!"
It may be plausable that the Federation is a group of Federated States, but the more logical explaination for Federation and Starfleet being interchangable is that Federation is Starfleet aka a defense and exploratory force.
So why do we see an Admiral of the Fleet in Starfleet, but a President of the Federation on the other side?
Earth may not have a pop culture, but if you read my post before you'll see I brought up the example of Klingon culture in the one time we see a civilian setting with non-SF personnel in a normal civilian setting (this was the Doctor's holographic kid).
A holodeck simulation concocted by Bellana Torres, who's half Klingon! What the fuck is this? A holodeck is an accurate representation of real life in the Federation? Are you on fucking crack or some shit? Can I grab Pearl Harbour and cry out "Now I am an expert on WW2!" No, I can't, because that WOULD BE FUCKING STUPID.
Starfleet Captains are not as dogmatic as you think, given Picard violated the Prime Directive seven times at least.
Now who's taking 'misrepresented samples'? Picard also upheld the Prime Directive when it suited him. And we are told repeatedly that the PD is the most important rule anyone in Starfleet must respect, not just captains. It's General Order Number One. This is canon. We hear CONSTANTLY, that starfleet officers will lay down their lives for this obscure, abstract principle. Ridiculous.
Even if Earth lacks culture, they would import it -- Klingon rock music is just one example. The Vulcan way of life is another. With 150 member planets, and assuming the majority of them are not human, Earth should be saturated by culture from other planets, unless you assume that all those planets have their cultures magically annihilated by SF's non-existent ground force.
You're an idiot. Strawmanning moron. We should SEE earth saturated by culture from other planets, but we DON'T. We don't see this at all.
First of all, there's no canon evidence that Federation citizens are not allowed to experience different cultures. That the Doctor's "kid" could listen to Klingon rock music is one example.
It's also stupid, and inadmissable, since it was a holodeck simulation constructed by one person, and for the Doctor's benefit.
Your claim is a universal quantification and I only need one example to destroy it. Federation citizens can easily access other cultures if they want to, there's no canon evidence to support secret police or any restriction of communication.
Outright lie. Section 31, starfleet controlled subspace relay network.
And in all this voluminous bullshit, Brian handwaves away the lack of any culture, popculture, or explanation for the prime direction against 'cultural contamination'.
). But not only can you get the bestsellers, you also get fanfiction. And all amature attempts at a first novel as well. And imagine you could just order a computer to create a new 3d computer game for you to play whenever you liked.
