Tonight's Enterprise(spoilers)

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, lets hear your "logic". Tell me why the ability to crack a security "code" and interstellar travel are joined at the hip as you seem to imply.

Mathematics, computer science and computational power are pre-requisites for both space travel and breaking encyption. If you have the ability to do one, chances are you've got the technology to do the other. Hoshi, however, is dealing with linguistics, which is a whole different can of worms than any of the three. Knowing how languages work is a fine science, but it has nothing to do at all with computer encryption. Patrick is right.

[Admiral_K]

Well, lets hear your "logic". Tell me why the ability to crack a security "code" and interstellar travel are joined at the hip as you seem to imply.

Mathematics, computer science and computational power are pre-requisites for both space travel and breaking encyption. If you have the ability to do one, chances are you've got the technology to do the other. Hoshi, however, is dealing with linguistics, which is a whole different can of worms than any of the three. Knowing how languages work is a fine science, but it has nothing to do at all with computer encryption. Patrick is right.

This is assuming the security "code" is mathematical in nature. The reason I use the word "code" in quotes is because we don't know the nature of the security on the sphere. Security Mechanism would actually be a more accurate description.

It would be logical to assume it is something more than a simple mathematical cipher and that Hoshi has some abilitys that they lack.

[Gil Hamilton]

This is assuming the security "code" is mathematical in nature. The reason I use the word "code" in quotes is because we don't know the nature of the security on the sphere. Security Mechanism would actually be a more accurate description.

It would be logical to assume it is something more than a simple mathematical cipher and that Hoshi has some abilitys that they lack.

What other nature can computer encryption be?

[Admiral_K]

Who said it had to be mathematical computer encryption that she is needed for? We use thumb pring scans, retina scancs etc for security. Thats why I said it was some sort of security mechanism as opposed to securit "code". Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

Perhaps she is needed because the command to the computer might have to be spoken in perfect whatever it is language the mamallian Xindi speak. Perhaps there is some other language based security mechanism they arne't able to get around and need the services of a linguist.

[Patrick Degan]

Patrik Deegan, If they don't need Hoshi to break codes why do they need her? You have yet to offer an alternate explanation. Thus Adrimal K's stance has most canon backing IMHO.

That the script has the Xindi Reptiles "needing" Hoshi is not being disputed. What is being argued is the plausibility of this particular plot point to begin with.

[Patrick Degan]

Simple thing called "logic", actually. But I know that's a bit beyond you. Meantime, I'm not responsible for your delusional fantasies.

Well, lets hear your "logic". Tell me why the ability to crack a security "code" and interstellar travel are joined at the hip as you seem to imply.

Both involve complex mathematics and interlocked branches of engineering, nitwit. Scientific and engineering developments are not isolated from one another, and the algorithms developed for computers and encryption form the basis for complex formulas at the basis of cybernetic control systems. This apart from the fact that interstellar navigation in an FTL paradigm must involve calculating the present positions of stars and planets apart from their observed positions which are viewed in any given position of observation as their positions relativity-shifted across lightyears of distance.

[Patrick Degan]

Who said it had to be mathematical computer encryption that she is needed for? We use thumb print scans, retina scancs etc for security. Thats why I said it was some sort of security mechanism as opposed to security "code". Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

Those are used for physical access barriers, nitwit, not computer file-protection routines.

Perhaps she is needed because the command to the computer might have to be spoken in perfect whatever it is language the mamallian Xindi speak. Perhaps there is some other language based security mechanism they aren't able to get around and need the services of a linguist.

Except voice-print and language-specific systems can be bypassed or spoofed. And this opens the question that, if such is the case that the security on the computer is lingua-based, then why didn't the Reptiles bring their own linguists along for just such an eventuality?

Or is the answer to that one that somehow, Reptile brains aren't able to handle translating languages either?

[Gil Hamilton]

That gets me too. The Reptiles have had far more access to the Humanoids for a much longer period of time. You'd think that they'd be more familiar with Humanoid linguistics and computer systems, and more to the point, have their own groups of people who have specialized in dealing with such systems. Why bother grabbing Hoshi when they have their own specialists?

All of this strikes me as a flimsy excuse to have a central character on the show key to the process.

[Patrick Degan]

That gets me too. The Reptiles have had far more access to the Humanoids for a much longer period of time. You'd think that they'd be more familiar with Humanoid linguistics and computer systems, and more to the point, have their own groups of people who have specialized in dealing with such systems. Why bother grabbing Hoshi when they have their own specialists?

All of this strikes me as a flimsy excuse to have a central character on the show key to the process.

Precisely. Not even the writers of Doctor Who at their worst were ever this obvious and clumsy about dumping a main series character (re: Doctor's companion) into danger.

[Admiral_K]

That gets me too. The Reptiles have had far more access to the Humanoids for a much longer period of time. You'd think that they'd be more familiar with Humanoid linguistics and computer systems, and more to the point, have their own groups of people who have specialized in dealing with such systems. Why bother grabbing Hoshi when they have their own specialists?

All of this strikes me as a flimsy excuse to have a central character on the show key to the process.

But you ignore the fact that this plan was hastily assembled. The reptillian commander had less than a day to throw this whole plan together at the behest of the sphere builders or else he risked the council turning completely against attacking Earth.

As I said, for one reason or another Hoshi must've been the best option they had available.

[Admiral_K]

Who said it had to be mathematical computer encryption that she is needed for? We use thumb print scans, retina scancs etc for security. Thats why I said it was some sort of security mechanism as opposed to security "code". Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

Those are used for physical access barriers, nitwit, not computer file-protection routines.

Bullshit. They can and are used to access computer systems as well. They could also be used as part of the security on a planet destroying device, moron.

Except voice-print and language-specific systems can be bypassed or spoofed. And this opens the question that, if such is the case that the security on the computer is lingua-based, then why didn't the Reptiles bring their own linguists along for just such an eventuality?

Simple. They may not have had linguists available in the short time they put this together.

Or is the answer to that one that somehow, Reptile brains aren't able to handle translating languages either?

Why, what an excellent idea. I'll be sure to give you credit for it.

[Patrick Degan]

Who said it had to be mathematical computer encryption that she is needed for? We use thumb print scans, retina scancs etc for security. Thats why I said it was some sort of security mechanism as opposed to security "code". Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

Those are used for physical access barriers, nitwit, not computer file-protection routines.

Bullshit. They can and are used to access computer systems as well. They could also be used as part of the security on a planet destroying device, moron.

Your bullshit, I believe. File-protection routines are encrypted, moron.

Except voice-print and language-specific systems can be bypassed or spoofed. And this opens the question that, if such is the case that the security on the computer is lingua-based, then why didn't the Reptiles bring their own linguists along for just such an eventuality?

Simple. They may not have had linguists available in the short time they put this together.

Just leaping to those conclusions, aren't you? They're going to go after a sensitive military target which is certain to have access barriers and encrypted computers but they somehow can't find the people to deal with these problems to make the mission a success and will count on somehow, someway kidnapping a human starship crewperson who also happens to be a crackerjack linguist and decryption analyst to make the whole scheme work. Brilliant.

Or is the answer to that one that somehow, Reptile brains aren't able to handle translating languages either?

Why, what an excellent idea. I'll be sure to give you credit for it.

And again, words don't exist to describe your stupidity.

[Admiral_K]

Those are used for physical access barriers, nitwit, not computer file-protection routines.

Bullshit. They can and are used to access computer systems as well. They could also be used as part of the security on a planet destroying device, moron.

Your bullshit, I believe. File-protection routines are encrypted, moron.

Strawman. The only one talking about "file protection routines" is you. What we are dealing with are security mechanisms.Ever heard of 2 factor or 3 factor authentication? You can bet that if you are going to build a planet destroying weapon you are going to have a multi factor security system to prevent its unauthorized use.

Except voice-print and language-specific systems can be bypassed or spoofed. And this opens the question that, if such is the case that the security on the computer is lingua-based, then why didn't the Reptiles bring their own linguists along for just such an eventuality?

Simple. They may not have had linguists available in the short time they put this together.

Just leaping to those conclusions, aren't you? They're going to go after a sensitive military target which is certain to have access barriers and encrypted computers but they somehow can't find the people to deal with these problems to make the mission a success and will count on somehow, someway kidnapping a human starship crewperson who also happens to be a crackerjack linguist and decryption analyst to make the whole scheme work. Brilliant.

Nobody said it was a smart or foolproof plan. I've said multiple times it was hastilly assembled. They may have a "Plan B" should she not cooperate, or Hoshi may very well be their "Plan B".

Or is the answer to that one that somehow, Reptile brains aren't able to handle translating languages either?

Why, what an excellent idea. I'll be sure to give you credit for it.

And again, words don't exist to describe your stupidity.

Hey, it was your idea. Is it possible to perform an Ad Hominem attack on yourself?

[Patrick Degan]

Bullshit. They can and are used to access computer systems as well. They could also be used as part of the security on a planet destroying device, moron.

Your bullshit, I believe. File-protection routines are encrypted, moron.

Strawman. The only one talking about "file protection routines" is you. What we are dealing with are security mechanisms.Ever heard of 2 factor or 3 factor authentication? You can bet that if you are going to build a planet destroying weapon you are going to have a multi factor security system to prevent its unauthorized use.

Not a strawman (learn your fallacies, nitwit). Your alledged security mechanisms only offer physical protection against unauthourised entry. Locks —which are all these systems you go on about really are— can be picked or broken and hardly require specialists to overcome them. The computer, however, is the prize and that is what has to be cracked for anybody to control the battlestation and its weaponry.

Nobody said it was a smart or foolproof plan. I've said multiple times it was hastilly assembled. They may have a "Plan B" should she not cooperate, or Hoshi may very well be their "Plan B".

Finding and kidnapping just the right member of an alien starship crew was their "Plan B", eh? Very comical. Nevermind that if they already had a "Plan B" before they grabbed Hoshi, it would make far more sense to simply implement that instead of going to addtional trouble and complicating their mission further.

Why, what an excellent idea. I'll be sure to give you credit for it.

And again, words don't exist to describe your stupidity.

Hey, it was your idea. Is it possible to perform an Ad Hominem attack on yourself?

I suppose you imagine that non-response of yours was clever.

[Admiral_K]

Your bullshit, I believe. File-protection routines are encrypted, moron.

Strawman. The only one talking about "file protection routines" is you. What we are dealing with are security mechanisms.Ever heard of 2 factor or 3 factor authentication? You can bet that if you are going to build a planet destroying weapon you are going to have a multi factor security system to prevent its unauthorized use.

Not a strawman (learn your fallacies, nitwit). Your alledged security mechanisms only offer physical protection against unauthourised entry. Locks —which are all these systems you go on about really are— can be picked or broken and hardly require specialists to overcome them. The computer, however, is the prize and that is what has to be cracked for anybody to control the battlestation and its weaponry.

Yes it is a strawman. Requiring the problem to be with computer decryption is central to your argument that it would not be plausable that they would need Hoshi. Which is why you keep on insisting on making this an argument about simple computer decryption and ignoring the other security barriers Hoshi may be needed to overcome which is central to my argument.

Your attempt to paint the security protections I've mentioned as nothing more than simple locks that "anybody" could pick is ridiculous. Defeating such mechanisms most certainly WOULD require a specialist's touch.

Nobody said it was a smart or foolproof plan. I've said multiple times it was hastilly assembled. They may have a "Plan B" should she not cooperate, or Hoshi may very well be their "Plan B".

Finding and kidnapping just the right member of an alien starship crew was their "Plan B", eh? Very comical. Nevermind that if they already had a "Plan B" before they grabbed Hoshi, it would make far more sense to simply implement that instead of going to addtional trouble and complicating their mission further.

Look, you haven't seen the episode so you don't know the circumstances surrounding it. I'm sure the reptillians would've loved to have had the time to get all the personell they would need in place before implementing it, but they were pressed for time and pressured by the sphere builders telling him to act NOW or he'd lose the council's support and miss his chance to launch the weapon.

Besides, it wasn't exactly difficult to beam Hoshi off an unshielded starship. They were fighting on their way to the sub space cooridoor they were going to use to get away. It is possible that their first choice was simply killed in combat. But even if it wasn't, desperate times called for desperate measures. If Hoshi was their best option, then she was their best option.

[Patrick Degan]

Strawman. The only one talking about "file protection routines" is you. What we are dealing with are security mechanisms.Ever heard of 2 factor or 3 factor authentication? You can bet that if you are going to build a planet destroying weapon you are going to have a multi factor security system to prevent its unauthorized use.

Not a strawman (learn your fallacies, nitwit). Your alledged security mechanisms only offer physical protection against unauthourised entry. Locks —which are all these systems you go on about really are— can be picked or broken and hardly require specialists to overcome them. The computer, however, is the prize and that is what has to be cracked for anybody to control the battlestation and its weaponry.

Yes it is a strawman. Requiring the problem to be with computer decryption is central to your argument that it would not be plausable that they would need Hoshi. Which is why you keep on insisting on making this an argument about simple computer decryption and ignoring the other security barriers Hoshi may be needed to overcome which is central to my argument.

Wrong again, nitwit. For a start, it was you who started this entire Red Herring argument about secondary security barriers, which was not the subject originally under discussion. And the fact that you can call decryption "simple" only further exposes the depths of your ignorance.

Your attempt to paint the security protections I've mentioned as nothing more than simple locks that "anybody" could pick is ridiculous. Defeating such mechanisms most certainly WOULD require a specialist's touch.

I see I have to connect all the fucking dots for you —my usage of the words "simple" and "anybody" referred to the relative ease of picking a physical access lock as compared to cracking a multi-level encryption routine which would certainly be the basis of the control computer's security.

Nobody said it was a smart or foolproof plan. I've said multiple times it was hastilly assembled. They may have a "Plan B" should she not cooperate, or Hoshi may very well be their "Plan B".

Finding and kidnapping just the right member of an alien starship crew was their "Plan B", eh? Very comical. Nevermind that if they already had a "Plan B" before they grabbed Hoshi, it would make far more sense to simply implement that instead of going to addtional trouble and complicating their mission further.

Look, you haven't seen the episode so you don't know the circumstances surrounding it. I'm sure the reptillians would've loved to have had the time to get all the personell they would need in place before implementing it, but they were pressed for time and pressured by the sphere builders telling him to act NOW or he'd lose the council's support and miss his chance to launch the weapon.

And here you are plucking compilcations out of thin air which apparently weren't even in the fucking script instead of examining the central issue of plausibility, which any oberver can dissect because it bears upon the idea behind the plot-point in question. Nor do you even try to address how the Reptiles could have just by coincidence grabbed the one expert they needed from a human starship crew to perform the job they should have already taken into account when they formulated their hijack attempt.

Besides, it wasn't exactly difficult to beam Hoshi off an unshielded starship. They were fighting on their way to the sub space cooridoor they were going to use to get away.

Red Herring. The issue of how easy it was to kidnap Hoshi is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

But even if it wasn't, desperate times called for desperate measures. If Hoshi was their best option, then she was their best option.

Circular Reasoning Fallacy. You still don't even try to address how the Reptiles could have just by coincidence grabbed the one expert they needed from a human starship crew to perform the job they should have already taken into account when they formulated their hijack attempt. And you continue to insert your own baseless speculations to try to handwave away the issue at question.

[Admiral_K]

Not a strawman (learn your fallacies, nitwit). Your alledged security mechanisms only offer physical protection against unauthourised entry. Locks —which are all these systems you go on about really are— can be picked or broken and hardly require specialists to overcome them. The computer, however, is the prize and that is what has to be cracked for anybody to control the battlestation and its weaponry.

Yes it is a strawman. Requiring the problem to be with computer decryption is central to your argument that it would not be plausable that they would need Hoshi. Which is why you keep on insisting on making this an argument about simple computer decryption and ignoring the other security barriers Hoshi may be needed to overcome which is central to my argument.

Wrong again, nitwit. For a start, it was you who started this entire Red Herring argument about secondary security barriers, which was not the subject originally under discussion. And the fact that you can call decryption "simple" only further exposes the depths of your ignorance.

Your attempt to paint the security protections I've mentioned as nothing more than simple locks that "anybody" could pick is ridiculous. Defeating such mechanisms most certainly WOULD require a specialist's touch.

I see I have to connect all the fucking dots for you —my usage of the words "simple" and "anybody" referred to the relative ease of picking a physical access lock as compared to cracking a multi-level encryption routine which would certainly be the basis of the control computer's security.

They obviously needed Hoshi for some purpose. Yes any security system can be overcome given enough time. Physical barriers, personell limitations etc. may have caused them to require more time then they had available to get "around" each of the security measures in place. Therfore, they had to devise a way to get through them. Hoshi may only be required to unlock part of a complex security system.

Finding and kidnapping just the right member of an alien starship crew was their "Plan B", eh? Very comical. Nevermind that if they already had a "Plan B" before they grabbed Hoshi, it would make far more sense to simply implement that instead of going to addtional trouble and complicating their mission further.

Look, you haven't seen the episode so you don't know the circumstances surrounding it. I'm sure the reptillians would've loved to have had the time to get all the personell they would need in place before implementing it, but they were pressed for time and pressured by the sphere builders telling him to act NOW or he'd lose the council's support and miss his chance to launch the weapon.

And here you are plucking compilcations out of thin air which apparently weren't even in the fucking script instead of examining the central issue of plausibility, which any oberver can dissect because it bears upon the idea behind the plot-point in question. Nor do you even try to address how the Reptiles could have just by coincidence grabbed the one expert they needed from a human starship crew to perform the job they should have already taken into account when they formulated their hijack attempt.

Besides, it wasn't exactly difficult to beam Hoshi off an unshielded starship. They were fighting on their way to the sub space cooridoor they were going to use to get away.

Red Herring. The issue of how easy it was to kidnap Hoshi is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

No its not a red herring, nor is it irrelevant. There are two arguments going on here. One: Could a species which achieves space travel, under certain circumstances be required to kidnap an enemy expert to overcome a computer security or security systems. And before you begin to cry and scream "strawman" that is essentially what you have been arguing all along.

The second point is the plausibility of them grabbing Hoshi as part of their plan to hijack the sphere. The ease it would require in getting her greatly affects that plausability. You stated that if they had a "plan b" it would have been easier to implement it rather than "going through the trouble" of kidnapping hoshi. I'm merely pointing out it was rather easy for them to do given that they could simply beam her off an unshielded starship (which is exactly what they did). Its not as if they had to load a boarding party onto the ship and fight their way to grabbing her.

You also ignore the fact that he could likely run "plan a" and "plan b" concurrently. Where "plan a" attempts to get around security and "plan b" involves going through the security. If one fails, then hopefully the other would work.

But even if it wasn't, desperate times called for desperate measures. If Hoshi was their best option, then she was their best option.

Circular Reasoning Fallacy. You still don't even try to address how the Reptiles could have just by coincidence grabbed the one expert they needed from a human starship crew to perform the job they should have already taken into account when they formulated their hijack attempt. And you continue to insert your own baseless speculations to try to handwave away the issue at question.

[/quote]

And I need to learn MY fallacies? Circular reasoning would be to say "Hoshi was their best available option because she was their best available option.".

The proof that she was likely their best available option is simple common sense. Why else would they abduct her if they already had a better option more easily available?

And again, the fact that you have failed to see the episode is dragging down your argument. You seem to assume that they grabbed Hoshi by "coincidence" and that they had no idea of her capablities. The truth they lizardmen encountered Hoshi multiple times in the council chamber where some of her abilities were demonstrated. In addition, he likely had other intelligence on the Enterprise crew given his regarding them to be a threat. They specifically targeted Hoshi.

In short, they may very well have linguists among their species. But by that same token, those experts might be several days away from getting there. Further delays would risk not only exposing his plot, but the council turning fully against the attack and thus locking down any possibility of launching the weapon. Given his options, he

[Burak Gazan]

Since the next episode is underway at present, I submit further debate is unnecessary. The prologue makes it clear iguanaman is so inept he cannot comprehend one of his own "species'" languages after a lifetime -- but after less than one years exposure, Sato is a walking 3P0 unit

Whatever, lets see where this goes next

[Admiral_K]

Yeah

[Patrick Degan]

Wrong again, nitwit. For a start, it was you who started this entire Red Herring argument about secondary security barriers, which was not the subject originally under discussion. And the fact that you can call decryption "simple" only further exposes the depths of your ignorance.

Your attempt to paint the security protections I've mentioned as nothing more than simple locks that "anybody" could pick is ridiculous. Defeating such mechanisms most certainly WOULD require a specialist's touch.

I see I have to connect all the fucking dots for you —my usage of the words "simple" and "anybody" referred to the relative ease of picking a physical access lock as compared to cracking a multi-level encryption routine which would certainly be the basis of the control computer's security.

They obviously needed Hoshi for some purpose. Yes any security system can be overcome given enough time. Physical barriers, personell limitations etc. may have caused them to require more time then they had available to get "around" each of the security measures in place. Therfore, they had to devise a way to get through them. Hoshi may only be required to unlock part of a complex security system.

What a "convenient" explanation that explains nothing.

Look, you haven't seen the episode so you don't know the circumstances surrounding it. I'm sure the reptillians would've loved to have had the time to get all the personell they would need in place before implementing it, but they were pressed for time and pressured by the sphere builders telling him to act NOW or he'd lose the council's support and miss his chance to launch the weapon.

And here you are plucking compilcations out of thin air which apparently weren't even in the fucking script instead of examining the central issue of plausibility, which any oberver can dissect because it bears upon the idea behind the plot-point in question. Nor do you even try to address how the Reptiles could have just by coincidence grabbed the one expert they needed from a human starship crew to perform the job they should have already taken into account when they formulated their hijack attempt.

Red Herring. The issue of how easy it was to kidnap Hoshi is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

No its not a red herring, nor is it irrelevant. There are two arguments going on here. One: Could a species which achieves space travel, under certain circumstances be required to kidnap an enemy expert to overcome a computer security or security systems. And before you begin to cry and scream "strawman" that is essentially what you have been arguing all along.

It is indeed a Red Herring and is quite irrelevant. And this discussion was never about any requirement to kidnap an enemy expert but how implausible it is that a: their need for a decryption expert was not forseen and b: that they could know just the right person from a human starship crew to kidnap because of their oversight. This is where there is a huge fucking problem with the entire premise of this plot-point.

The second point is the plausibility of them grabbing Hoshi as part of their plan to hijack the sphere. The ease it would require in getting her greatly affects that plausability. You stated that if they had a "plan b" it would have been easier to implement it rather than "going through the trouble" of kidnapping hoshi. I'm merely pointing out it was rather easy for them to do given that they could simply beam her off an unshielded starship (which is exactly what they did). Its not as if they had to load a boarding party onto the ship and fight their way to grabbing her.

We're not talking about how easy it would be to kidnap Hoshi but rather why they should need to in the first place and that they'd know just the right person to grab from a human starship crew!

You also ignore the fact that he could likely run "plan a" and "plan b" concurrently. Where "plan a" attempts to get around security and "plan b" involves going through the security. If one fails, then hopefully the other would work.

I ignore nothing, nitwit. And a "plan B" exists in the event a "plan A" goes wrong, not as a componnent of the original plan.

And I need to learn MY fallacies? Circular reasoning would be to say "Hoshi was their best available option because she was their best available option.".

Which is what you are saying in plain text: "If Hoshi was their best option, she was their best option". It doesn't say why she was their best option beyond stating "If A then A". Which means it doesn't say a fucking thing beyond justifying its own premise with its own proposition. That is Circular Reasoning.

The proof that she was likely their best available option is simple common sense. Why else would they abduct her if they already had a better option more easily available?

Which is rather the root of the plausibility problem here.

And again, the fact that you have failed to see the episode is dragging down your argument. You seem to assume that they grabbed Hoshi by "coincidence" and that they had no idea of her capablities. The truth they lizardmen encountered Hoshi multiple times in the council chamber where some of her abilities were demonstrated. In addition, he likely had other intelligence on the Enterprise crew given his regarding them to be a threat. They specifically targeted Hoshi.

In other words, I'm disqualified from examining a premise based upon data given. And because I don't fill in gaps with sheer speculation. Riiiight...

In short, they may very well have linguists among their species. But by that same token, those experts might be several days away from getting there. Further delays would risk not only exposing his plot, but the council turning fully against the attack and thus locking down any possibility of launching the weapon.

In short, they formulate a plan to steal a weapon system with security protections but can't be bothered to ensure that they have the right personnel in sufficent numbers to ensure the success of the operation, because they are delayed by yet another speculation you pull out of thin air to support your apologia for the plot hole in this episode. Riiiight....

[Admiral_K]

What a "convenient" explanation that explains nothing.

What? I thought we were looking at plausible plot points. Your response indicates to me you have no answer for why what I proposed would be implausable.

It is indeed a Red Herring and is quite irrelevant. And this discussion was never about any requirement to kidnap an enemy expert but how implausible it is that a: their need for a decryption expert was not forseen and b: that they could know just the right person from a human starship crew to kidnap because of their oversight. This is where there is a huge fucking problem with the entire premise of this plot-point.

Wrong. You brought up the point that if they had a "Plan B" it would have been easier for them to implement that rather than "going through the trouble and complication of kidnapping an enemy expert". The ease or difficulty of kidnaping said enemy is of great importance to your argument that this would not be plausible. If its a red herring, its one you've brought into this debate. Don't bitch at me because I've taken it and made filets out of it.

Now I'll answer each question:

a: their need for a decryption expert was not forseen

It was forseen. Thats why they grabbed Hoshi. They likely did have their own experts somewhere, but given the small time frame the entire plan was conceieved and put into action, they very well could not have had the time needed to get those experts.

b: that they could know just the right person from a human starship crew to kidnap because of their oversight

Already addressed. They were impressed with Hoshi's skills as a linguist. They specifically scanned for and targeted her for beam out. In this weeks episode we learned it is because the Lizards have difficulty with the language of the Aquatics who built the sphere.

We're not talking about how easy it would be to kidnap Hoshi but rather why they should need to in the first place and that they'd know just the right person to grab from a human starship crew!

Already addressed.

I ignore nothing, nitwit. And a "plan B" exists in the event a "plan A" goes wrong, not as a componnent of the original plan.

Are you intentionally mis-reading my posts? I never said Plan B was a component of any other plan. With time being of the essence, I said they would likely run "Plan A" and "Plan B" concurrently. If one fails, hoping the other might succeed. They didn't have time to work on Plan A and Plan B individually since the Other Xindi races would that time to plan attacks against the sphere.

Which is what you are saying in plain text: "If Hoshi was their best option, she was their best option". It doesn't say why she was their best option beyond stating "If A then A". Which means it doesn't say a fucking thing beyond justifying its own premise with its own proposition. That is Circular Reasoning.

Its not circular reasoning. You are taking that statement out of context. "IF A then A" wasn't my proof for A. "IF A then A" is an axiom that is completely true. My proof of A was simple common sense. If they had better options available what possible reason would they have for trying to get Hoshi? Since there is no logical reason for doing so, then it is logical to assume that she was their best option given the circumstances.

Which is rather the root of the plausibility problem here.

There is no problem.

In other words, I'm disqualified from examining a premise based upon data given. And because I don't fill in gaps with sheer speculation. Riiiight...

No you aren't disqualified. But it doesn't help your argument when you don't know the circumstances under which things happened.

In short, they formulate a plan to steal a weapon system with security protections but can't be bothered to ensure that they have the right personnel in sufficent numbers to ensure the success of the operation, because they are delayed by yet another speculation you pull out of thin air to support your apologia for the plot hole in this episode. Riiiight....

No one said they "couldn't be bothered" to ensure they had the right personell. If they didn't grab Hoshi, then they would have had to come up with another idea en route to attacking Earth. If you had seen the episode (which you havent) you'd know the plan was concieved and put into place under great duress. They didn't want to have to take such drastic action so quickly. They were being pushed by the Sphere builders, whom some of them regard as almost god like figures, that if they did not act NOW they would doom their planet to failure.

My Speculation was hardly pulled out of thin air. If they had no experts available, then it is only logical to assume there was some reason other then them simply choosing not to get them. A logistical reason such as the one I mentioned is simply the most likely scenario given the cirumstances.

[Patrick Degan]

What a "convenient" explanation that explains nothing.

What? I thought we were looking at plausible plot points. Your response indicates to me you have no answer for why what I proposed would be implausable.

Because a tautology merits no more of a response than the one I gave.

It is indeed a Red Herring and is quite irrelevant. And this discussion was never about any requirement to kidnap an enemy expert but how implausible it is that a: their need for a decryption expert was not forseen and b: that they could know just the right person from a human starship crew to kidnap because of their oversight. This is where there is a huge fucking problem with the entire premise of this plot-point.

Wrong. You brought up the point that if they had a "Plan B" it would have been easier for them to implement that rather than "going through the trouble and complication of kidnapping an enemy expert". The ease or difficulty of kidnaping said enemy is of great importance to your argument that this would not be plausible. If its a red herring, its one you've brought into this debate. Don't bitch at me because I've taken it and made filets out of it.

I'm not responsible for your fantasies. I will state this clearly: the ease of kidnapping Hoshi is not, never had been, and never will be any part of what I am arguing on this subject. Twisting the meaning of my words does not avail you anything.

Now I'll answer each question:

This should be amusing.

a: their need for a decryption expert was not forseen

It was forseen. Thats why they grabbed Hoshi. They likely did have their own experts somewhere, but given the small time frame the entire plan was conceieved and put into action, they very well could not have had the time needed to get those experts.

Wrong. The fact that they would have had to grab an alien in the first place to do a job they should have already provided for is not an indication of planning but desperation borne by lack of it. Your "answer" also does not address the issue of how the Reptiles could have been lucky enough to grab just the right person to do the one job they need to make the attempt a success.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer.

b: that they could know just the right person from a human starship crew to kidnap because of their oversight

Already addressed. They were impressed with Hoshi's skills as a linguist. They specifically scanned for and targeted her for beam out. In this weeks episode we learned it is because the Lizards have difficulty with the language of the Aquatics who built the sphere.

Wrong. There is no reason to assume that a linguistic barrier constitutes the basis for the security on the main computer, and again, even if this is the case, this beggars the question as to why the Reptiles could not have already had a linguist on their team before setting out on the mission.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer.

We're not talking about how easy it would be to kidnap Hoshi but rather why they should need to in the first place and that they'd know just the right person to grab from a human starship crew!

Already addressed.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer.

I ignore nothing, nitwit. And a "plan B" exists in the event a "plan A" goes wrong, not as a componnent of the original plan.

Are you intentionally mis-reading my posts? I never said Plan B was a component of any other plan. With time being of the essence, I said they would likely run "Plan A" and "Plan B" concurrently. If one fails, hoping the other might succeed. They didn't have time to work on Plan A and Plan B individually since the Other Xindi races would that time to plan attacks against the sphere.

Except that is not how a military operation works, nitwit. Backup plans exist for one reason: in case the main plan fails. And a backup plan cannot simply be scrapped together in "the hopes that it will work" if they have nothing ready to begin with. You are attempting to describe a plan with multiple phases —which requires even greater attention to setup before execution, which should also include ensuring that the mission assets are sufficent to do the job. Which argues even further against the idea that the Reptiles would not take into account the necessity for including either a decryption expert or a linguist as part of the raiding party.

Which is what you are saying in plain text: "If Hoshi was their best option, she was their best option". It doesn't say why she was their best option beyond stating "If A then A". Which means it doesn't say a fucking thing beyond justifying its own premise with its own proposition. That is Circular Reasoning.

Its not circular reasoning. You are taking that statement out of context. "IF A then A" wasn't my proof for A. "IF A then A" is an axiom that is completely true. My proof of A was simple common sense. If they had better options available what possible reason would they have for trying to get Hoshi? Since there is no logical reason for doing so, then it is logical to assume that she was their best option given the circumstances.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer. Nor is attempting to redefine the term "circular reasoning".

Which is rather the root of the plausibility problem here.

There is no problem.

Translation: "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA LA...."

In other words, I'm disqualified from examining a premise based upon data given. And because I don't fill in gaps with sheer speculation. Riiiight...

No you aren't disqualified. But it doesn't help your argument when you don't know the circumstances under which things happened.

Wrong, nitwit. For example, it's not necessary to have seen the movie The Core or know the circumstances under which things happen in the movie to be able to attack the plausibility of the film's central concept: that the Earth's core is suddenly grinding to a halt and that a nuke blast will get it rotating back up to speed again. The idea is ludicrous on its face. Same thing with this entire plot-point you keep trying to justify.

In short, they formulate a plan to steal a weapon system with security protections but can't be bothered to ensure that they have the right personnel in sufficent numbers to ensure the success of the operation, because they are delayed by yet another speculation you pull out of thin air to support your apologia for the plot hole in this episode. Riiiight....

No one said they "couldn't be bothered" to ensure they had the right personell. If they didn't grab Hoshi, then they would have had to come up with another idea en route to attacking Earth. If you had seen the episode (which you havent) you'd know the plan was concieved and put into place under great duress. They didn't want to have to take such drastic action so quickly. They were being pushed by the Sphere builders, whom some of them regard as almost god like figures, that if they did not act NOW they would doom their planet to failure.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer.

My Speculation was hardly pulled out of thin air. If they had no experts available, then it is only logical to assume there was some reason other then them simply choosing not to get them. A logistical reason such as the one I mentioned is simply the most likely scenario given the cirumstances.

Sorry, but "it is because it is because it is..." is not an answer.

[Admiral_K]

Sorry, I've lost interest in this argument. Next time, try to respond in less than 5 days from the last post. You essentially just repeat yourself over and over and over without making any valid points.

Argumentum ad nauseam

Since the plan was concieved and enacted after they had been in contact with and impressed by Hoshi's abilitys, it is perfectly plausible that they would include abducting her in their plan.

Here is a perfectly plausible storyline since you can't seem to get it through your thick skull:

Lizard man one: "Sir the interface is in aquatic and we need a linguist to help us deciper it. But to get one here that is loyal to us will take at least a week at maximum warp"

Lizard man commander: "Damn... we don't have that kind of time! Wait... the Human linguist is very good in aquatic. Lets abduct her and coerce her into helping us along the way. If that doesn't pan out, we'll have our own linguist attempt to meet us en route. Make preparations!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure your reply will be HOW CONVENIENT BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah BLAH blah.

So Just don't bother.

[Patrick Degan]

Sorry, I've lost interest in this argument. Next time, try to respond in less than 5 days from the last post. You essentially just repeat yourself over and over and over without making any valid points.

Argumentum ad nauseam

Since the plan was concieved and enacted after they had been in contact with and impressed by Hoshi's abilitys, it is perfectly plausible that they would include abducting her in their plan.

Here is a perfectly plausible storyline since you can't seem to get it through your thick skull:

Lizard man one: "Sir the interface is in aquatic and we need a linguist to help us deciper it. But to get one here that is loyal to us will take at least a week at maximum warp"

Lizard man commander: "Damn... we don't have that kind of time! Wait... the Human linguist is very good in aquatic. Lets abduct her and coerce her into helping us along the way. If that doesn't pan out, we'll have our own linguist attempt to meet us en route. Make preparations!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure your reply will be HOW CONVENIENT BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah BLAH blah.

So Just don't bother.

Translation: "It is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is..."

[Admiral_K]

Sorry, I've lost interest in this argument. Next time, try to respond in less than 5 days from the last post. You essentially just repeat yourself over and over and over without making any valid points.

Argumentum ad nauseam

Since the plan was concieved and enacted after they had been in contact with and impressed by Hoshi's abilitys, it is perfectly plausible that they would include abducting her in their plan.

Here is a perfectly plausible storyline since you can't seem to get it through your thick skull:

Lizard man one: "Sir the interface is in aquatic and we need a linguist to help us deciper it. But to get one here that is loyal to us will take at least a week at maximum warp"

Lizard man commander: "Damn... we don't have that kind of time! Wait... the Human linguist is very good in aquatic. Lets abduct her and coerce her into helping us along the way. If that doesn't pan out, we'll have our own linguist attempt to meet us en route. Make preparations!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure your reply will be HOW CONVENIENT BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah BLAH blah.

So Just don't bother.

Translation: "It is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is because it is..."