How does the Federation produce antimatter?

[Robert Walper]

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

and we saw how well THAT worked at wolf 359. . .oh wait, it didn't.

Presumeably, Starfleet mustered much larger forces against the cube in ST:FC, and yet still barely slowed it down.

[DaveJB]

At Wolf 359, the Borg had Picard/Locutus, and knew Starfleet's tactics and weaknesses. They had no such luxury in FC.

[Xon]

Thx for the TM quotes Chris OFarrell.

A net energy loss of only 24% seems very efficent in the light of the efficacy of our current antimatter production technology.

Very true. The biggest problem with our antimatter prodtcution technology is handling the stuff.

But in Trek, they have forcefields & tractor beams. And given you can make a workable shield outof a comm badge, the power requirements for them a very low.

If we could handle anti-matter as easily as they could, our antimatter production efficiency would be a heck of a lot high.

[Patrick Degan]

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

and we saw how well THAT worked at wolf 359. . .oh wait, it didn't.

Presumeably, Starfleet mustered much larger forces against the cube in ST:FC, and yet still barely slowed it down.

Visibly damaged and power fluctuating across its grid after concentrated bombardment. I'd say they slowed it down substantially.

[Winston Blake]

If we could handle anti-matter as easily as they could, our antimatter production efficiency would be a heck of a lot high.

I find this hard to believe, considering all our antimatter is made in particle collisions with horrendous inefficiency.

Dr. Robert Forward has shown, based on his findings in a study of antimatter production, that if a dedicated antimatter factory were built now, it could be approximately 6000 times more efficient than Fermilab's and CERN's antimatter production facilities (bringing it up to a grand 0.01% efficiency). The theoretical maximum efficiency for antimatter production is 50% (it is not 100% because every production of an antiparticle is accompanied by the production of its normal-matter twin).

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stu ... dcore.html

That means we currently have an efficiency of 1.6E-6 percent!

[Sarevok]

The problem in the case with the Borg against the Federation, straight up fights get the Federation slaughtered.

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

and we saw how well THAT worked at wolf 359. . .oh wait, it didn't.

The fleet at Wolf 359 was not large enough. Borg cubes are not invincible. Enough firepower should be able to destroy them.

[Patrick Degan]

Not necessarily. Large fleet level firepower can decimate Borg cubes.

and we saw how well THAT worked at wolf 359. . .oh wait, it didn't.

The fleet at Wolf 359 was not large enough. Borg cubes are not invincible. Enough firepower should be able to destroy them.

And it was less the numbers than the fact that the fleet at Wolf 359 was stupidly handled. Admiral Hansen sent his ships in ones and twos instead of massing his firepower and the result was that they were picked off like clay pigeons.

[Robert Walper]

The fleet at Wolf 359 was not large enough. Borg cubes are not invincible. Enough firepower should be able to destroy them.

And it was less the numbers than the fact that the fleet at Wolf 359 was stupidly handled. Admiral Hansen sent his ships in ones and twos instead of massing his firepower and the result was that they were picked off like clay pigeons.

I have to disagree there(firmly with the "ones" statement. We never saw one ship engaging the cube alone).

The Wolf 359 fleet in all likelyhood combined their firepower on the cube. The reason it "looked like" the Admiral Hansen was sending ships in twos was that there is good reason to think Starfleet was not entirely certain from what vector the cube was coming in. This is supported by the E-D's attempts to keep up with the cube. Quote:

Worf: "I'm detecting unusual eddy currents, bearing <insert coordinates here>".
Riker: "Mr Data, plot a course following those eddy currents."

This is surprising if one submits the cube was making a straight beeline for Earth with no course adjustments or detours. Why bother trying to track the cube if you know exactly where it is going? Starfleet amassed it's fleet at Wolf 359, but it would make sense if they deployed it out a bit to try and hold the cube's attention while the other ships converged upon it's position. We could see the fleet was spread out in groups of two, tactically sound I would say if you're not sure where exactly the cube is going to come from.

To sum it up, I find it hard to believe Starfleet could predict the cube's course so precisely that they could instantly have their entire fleet in one bunch pounce on it, particularily given the E-D wasn't always certain where it was or where it was going.

[DaveJB]

In DS9 "Emissary", we clearly saw the ships attacking in pairs - firstly the Melbourne and Saratoga, then after the Melbourne was vaporized and Saratoga grabbed in a tractor beam, they were followed by an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class.

[Robert Walper]

In DS9 "Emissary", we clearly saw the ships attacking in pairs - firstly the Melbourne and Saratoga, then after the Melbourne was vaporized and Saratoga grabbed in a tractor beam, they were followed by an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class.

Correction, we saw the starships showing up in pairs. This idea that the rest of the fleet is just sitting on the sidelines waiting for their turn is so ridiculas I discount it entirely.

As I pointed out earlier, even the E-D wasn't entirely certain where the cube was at or going. Starfleet undoubtedly projected the cube's course and determined it would pass through the Wolf 359 system. However, given how the cube can easily outpace their top end starship of the time, it would make sense to deploy the fleet out a bit and try to get two ships to delay the cube until the rest showed up. Naturally two starships would be more effective than one. I submit they deployed the fleet into 20 groups of 2 in order to maximize their chances of intercepting the cube. Otherwise they'd have risked the cube blowing right by them since they didn't know exactly where it was coming from.

[Patrick Degan]

In DS9 "Emissary", we clearly saw the ships attacking in pairs - firstly the Melbourne and Saratoga, then after the Melbourne was vaporized and Saratoga grabbed in a tractor beam, they were followed by an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class.

Correction, we saw the starships showing up in pairs. This idea that the rest of the fleet is just sitting on the sidelines waiting for their turn is so ridiculas I discount it entirely.

That is not evidence. It doesn't matter what your personal feeling on the subject might be. Unless you can show otherwise, best-evidence indicates that the ships did indeed attack in ones and twos.

As I pointed out earlier, even the E-D wasn't entirely certain where the cube was at or going. Starfleet undoubtedly projected the cube's course and determined it would pass through the Wolf 359 system. However, given how the cube can easily outpace their top end starship of the time, it would make sense to deploy the fleet out a bit and try to get two ships to delay the cube until the rest showed up. Naturally two starships would be more effective than one. I submit they deployed the fleet into 20 groups of 2 in order to maximize their chances of intercepting the cube. Otherwise they'd have risked the cube blowing right by them since they didn't know exactly where it was coming from.

Care to back this little speculation up with anything like canon evidence? Because BOBW (II) has the whole fleet wrecked in the Wolf system.

[Vympel]

This has been pointed out often, but all Picard did to attain victory in FC was order all ships (substantially reduced) to concentrate their firepower. That they needed Picard to attain this stroke of genius so late in the battle speaks volumes about what they were doing beforehand ...

[Sarevok]

This has been pointed out often, but all Picard did to attain victory in FC was order all ships (substantially reduced) to concentrate their firepower. That they needed Picard to attain this stroke of genius so late in the battle speaks volumes about what they were doing beforehand ...

Picard ordered the ships to concentrate fire on a particular weak spot on the Borg cube. Without Picard they would have lost the battle in FC.

[Robert Walper]

In DS9 "Emissary", we clearly saw the ships attacking in pairs - firstly the Melbourne and Saratoga, then after the Melbourne was vaporized and Saratoga grabbed in a tractor beam, they were followed by an Ambassador-class and a Nebula-class.

Correction, we saw the starships showing up in pairs. This idea that the rest of the fleet is just sitting on the sidelines waiting for their turn is so ridiculas I discount it entirely.

That is not evidence. It doesn't matter what your personal feeling on the subject might be. Unless you can show otherwise, best-evidence indicates that the ships did indeed attack in ones and twos.

Let me get this straight. You're claim is that Starfleet amassed a fleet of forty Federation starships in the Wolf 359 system. Once detecting the cube, the entire fleet sat there, and sent vessels, in pairs, to attack the cube. Once a pair was destroyed, the fleet sent the next two, and once again waited for them to be destroyed. Is that what you're seriously suggesting?

As I pointed out earlier, even the E-D wasn't entirely certain where the cube was at or going. Starfleet undoubtedly projected the cube's course and determined it would pass through the Wolf 359 system. However, given how the cube can easily outpace their top end starship of the time, it would make sense to deploy the fleet out a bit and try to get two ships to delay the cube until the rest showed up. Naturally two starships would be more effective than one. I submit they deployed the fleet into 20 groups of 2 in order to maximize their chances of intercepting the cube. Otherwise they'd have risked the cube blowing right by them since they didn't know exactly where it was coming from.

Care to back this little speculation up with anything like canon evidence? Because BOBW (II) has the whole fleet wrecked in the Wolf system.

How does that hinder my speculation? The entire fleet was wrecked in one spot, which I consider evidence the fleet converged to that one spot. I already submitted evidence that even the E-D didn't know what direction the cube was going, and hence, the Starfleet armada would not be sure which vector it would be approaching from. Hence, spreading the fleet out in pairs would make sense if they want to be sure to intercept it.

BTW, at what point did we ever see the Wolf 359 fleet send one vessel against the cube?

[Patrick Degan]

Correction, we saw the starships showing up in pairs. This idea that the rest of the fleet is just sitting on the sidelines waiting for their turn is so ridiculas I discount it entirely.

That is not evidence. It doesn't matter what your personal feeling on the subject might be. Unless you can show otherwise, best-evidence indicates that the ships did indeed attack in ones and twos.

Let me get this straight. You're claim is that Starfleet amassed a fleet of forty Federation starships in the Wolf 359 system. Once detecting the cube, the entire fleet sat there, and sent vessels, in pairs, to attack the cube. Once a pair was destroyed, the fleet sent the next two, and once again waited for them to be destroyed. Is that what you're seriously suggesting?

Are you insane? This was what took place in the fucking episode! You are actually going to dispute what the goddamn script said was happening? What Admiral Hansen told Capt. Riker was happening? The visuals of several dozen wrecks at the battle site? You're going to dispute what was shown in the opening of the DS9 pilot? I'm not suggesting anything, that was what actually occurred on-screen. You have no argument.

As I pointed out earlier, even the E-D wasn't entirely certain where the cube was at or going. Starfleet undoubtedly projected the cube's course and determined it would pass through the Wolf 359 system. However, given how the cube can easily outpace their top end starship of the time, it would make sense to deploy the fleet out a bit and try to get two ships to delay the cube until the rest showed up. Naturally two starships would be more effective than one. I submit they deployed the fleet into 20 groups of 2 in order to maximize their chances of intercepting the cube. Otherwise they'd have risked the cube blowing right by them since they didn't know exactly where it was coming from.

Care to back this little speculation up with anything like canon evidence? Because BOBW (II) has the whole fleet wrecked in the Wolf system.

How does that hinder my speculation? The entire fleet was wrecked in one spot, which I consider evidence the fleet converged to that one spot. I already submitted evidence that even the E-D didn't know what direction the cube was going, and hence, the Starfleet armada would not be sure which vector it would be approaching from. Hence, spreading the fleet out in pairs would make sense if they want to be sure to intercept it.

It hinders your speculation because there is no canon evidence to support it, and several visuals from "Best Of Both Worlds (II)" and "Emissary" which contradicts it flatly. You have no argument.

BTW, at what point did we ever see the Wolf 359 fleet send one vessel against the cube?

USS Melbourne —DS9 pilot episode "Emissary". You have no argument.

[Robert Walper]

Let me get this straight. You're claim is that Starfleet amassed a fleet of forty Federation starships in the Wolf 359 system. Once detecting the cube, the entire fleet sat there, and sent vessels, in pairs, to attack the cube. Once a pair was destroyed, the fleet sent the next two, and once again waited for them to be destroyed. Is that what you're seriously suggesting?

Are you insane? This was what took place in the fucking episode! You are actually going to dispute what the goddamn script said was happening? What Admiral Hansen told Capt. Riker was happening?

Perhaps some clarification on my part. I was not disputing Starfleet gathered a fleet of forty ships, I'm merely pointing out that forty ships in the Wolf 359 system does not mean they have to be in single formation or grouped extremely close to eachother. I've submitted Starfleet didn't know exactly from where the cube would vector in, thus spreading their fleet out a bit to ensure interception makes sense.

The visuals of several dozen wrecks at the battle site?

And this refutes the idea of the entire fleet racing towards the cube at once, how?

You're going to dispute what was shown in the opening of the DS9 pilot?

Two starships were seen to engage the cube immediately, and two more were racing in. How does that constitute evidence the other ships were not moving to intercept the cube?

I'm not suggesting anything, that was what actually occurred on-screen. You have no argument.

Appears to be a difference in interpretation. You believe the entire fleet was in range of the cube and chose to sit back and be taken apart piece by piece. I on the other hand believe the fleet was merely spread out to ensure interception of the cube. Once detected, the entire fleet would converge upon it's position.

How does that hinder my speculation? The entire fleet was wrecked in one spot, which I consider evidence the fleet converged to that one spot. I already submitted evidence that even the E-D didn't know what direction the cube was going, and hence, the Starfleet armada would not be sure which vector it would be approaching from. Hence, spreading the fleet out in pairs would make sense if they want to be sure to intercept it.

It hinders your speculation because there is no canon evidence to support it, and several visuals from "Best Of Both Worlds (II)" and "Emissary" which contradicts it flatly. You have no argument.

We're working with the exact same evidence here. You claim the fleet sat idly by while their comrades got picked apart, I claim the entire fleet was converging on the cube at once. The fact that four starships reached the cube first in no way proves the rest of the fleet was not moving to intercept the cube as well.

BTW, at what point did we ever see the Wolf 359 fleet send one vessel against the cube?

USS Melbourne —DS9 pilot episode "Emissary". You have no argument.

Melbourne was backed up by the Saratoga. The starships were in pairs.

[Robert Walper]

Would a moderator care to split the thread? I fear it's been diverted from the OP to discussion of the Wolf 359 fleet tactics.

[Alyeska]

No one is bothering to debate the original topic so there is no need to split it.

[Patrick Degan]

Let me get this straight. You're claim is that Starfleet amassed a fleet of forty Federation starships in the Wolf 359 system. Once detecting the cube, the entire fleet sat there, and sent vessels, in pairs, to attack the cube. Once a pair was destroyed, the fleet sent the next two, and once again waited for them to be destroyed. Is that what you're seriously suggesting?

Are you insane? This was what took place in the fucking episode! You are actually going to dispute what the goddamn script said was happening? What Admiral Hansen told Capt. Riker was happening?

Perhaps some clarification on my part. I was not disputing Starfleet gathered a fleet of forty ships, I'm merely pointing out that forty ships in the Wolf 359 system does not mean they have to be in single formation or grouped extremely close to eachother. I've submitted Starfleet didn't know exactly from where the cube would vector in, thus spreading their fleet out a bit to ensure interception makes sense.

And I would love to know the canon source you're drawing upon to back this contention.

The visuals of several dozen wrecks at the battle site?

And this refutes the idea of the entire fleet racing towards the cube at once, how?

It doesn't, but the visual from "Emissary" does.

You're going to dispute what was shown in the opening of the DS9 pilot?

Two starships were seen to engage the cube immediately, and two more were racing in. How does that constitute evidence the other ships were not moving to intercept the cube?

My entire point was that the fleet's firepower was not massed, that ships attacked in ones and twos, and you keep putting up your unsupported speculation of a fleet spread out all over the Wolf system as refutation.

I'm not suggesting anything, that was what actually occurred on-screen. You have no argument.

Appears to be a difference in interpretation. You believe the entire fleet was in range of the cube and chose to sit back and be taken apart piece by piece. I on the other hand believe the fleet was merely spread out to ensure interception of the cube. Once detected, the entire fleet would converge upon it's position.

And I would love to know the canon source you're drawing upon to back this contention.

How does that hinder my speculation? The entire fleet was wrecked in one spot, which I consider evidence the fleet converged to that one spot. I already submitted evidence that even the E-D didn't know what direction the cube was going, and hence, the Starfleet armada would not be sure which vector it would be approaching from. Hence, spreading the fleet out in pairs would make sense if they want to be sure to intercept it.

It hinders your speculation because there is no canon evidence to support it, and several visuals from "Best Of Both Worlds (II)" and "Emissary" which contradicts it flatly. You have no argument.

We're working with the exact same evidence here. You claim the fleet sat idly by while their comrades got picked apart, I claim the entire fleet was converging on the cube at once. The fact that four starships reached the cube first in no way proves the rest of the fleet was not moving to intercept the cube as well.

Neither does it support the notion that Hansen had spread his ships all over the Wolf system to try to cover every conceivable approach vector as you would have it. But alternatively, we have observed that choke-point strategies are somehow feasible in the Trek universe and are employed as a standard fleet tactic.

BTW, at what point did we ever see the Wolf 359 fleet send one vessel against the cube?

USS Melbourne —DS9 pilot episode "Emissary". You have no argument.

Melbourne was backed up by the Saratoga. The starships were in pairs.

Um, nope. The Melbourne was on a perpendicular angle to that of the Saratoga's. We see the wreck drifting off in the distance as the Borg tractor beam snags the Saratoga, which is approaching from forward-camera.

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

I'll just drop it.