Moderator: Vympel
Isn't the purpose of a warp field to protect the ship from the effects of going to light speed ie becoming energy?Darth Wong wrote:I see you have resorted to outright bullfuckery to support your viewpoint. The RELATIVE VELOCITY was far lower than that, you fucking bullshitter.
Bullshit. Warp fields will create stress; their cessation will not.Robert Walper wrote:I wasn't referring to the ship's relative velocities, Mike. I was pointing out the sudden disapearance of the warp fields surrounding both ships, coupled with the destruction of both vessels could have resulted in some very extreme effects/stresses effectively destroying anything worthwhile obtaining later on.
That's a possibility, but it merely points to the fact that S-8472 is not invincible, and tissue samples could have been obtained if the Borg were smart enough to try. Hell, bits of them probably got blown off during combat.Hell, the explosion alone, ignoring warp "variables" and effects, could easily have vaporized any viable material to work with.
The warp speed is irrelevant, and since the bio-ships are supposedly much tougher than the Borg cubes I don't see why there shouldn't be at least microscopic fragments. Never mind the fact that they OBVIOUSLY WEREN'T EVEN TRYING TO GET SAMPLES; a fact that you studiously ignore in your pathetic "noooo, the Borg can't be stupid because I'm the whiny Borg fanboy!!" argument.That would be dependent upon viable material having survived the destruction(highly questionable), the Borg reaching the site first, and the Borg being able to outrun pursuit by Species 8472 ships. Alot of "if's" dependent upon a dubious claim of viable material having survived the destruction of both vessels while at warp speeds.
Did they come up with a solution, despite already knowing something about how the Holo-Doc did it? No. Yet again, you completely fail in your attempt to prove that the Voyager Borg are not retards.And frankly, I fail to see how you can assert the Borg didn't investigate the site afterwards, since we don't know either way.
What the hell are you talking about?Kamakazie Sith wrote:Isn't the purpose of a warp field to protect the ship from the effects of going to light speed ie becoming energy?Darth Wong wrote:I see you have resorted to outright bullfuckery to support your viewpoint. The RELATIVE VELOCITY was far lower than that, you fucking bullshitter.
If both ships were destroyed and their warp fields destroyed with them the matter still left would still be moving beyond c, wouldn't it become energy or am I completely off the ball here?
I was under the impression that matter traveling at lightspeed would become energy. Though I can see by your response that I am completely mistaken....now I wonder where the hell I picked that up from.Darth Wong wrote:What the hell are you talking about?Kamakazie Sith wrote:Isn't the purpose of a warp field to protect the ship from the effects of going to light speed ie becoming energy?Darth Wong wrote:I see you have resorted to outright bullfuckery to support your viewpoint. The RELATIVE VELOCITY was far lower than that, you fucking bullshitter.
If both ships were destroyed and their warp fields destroyed with them the matter still left would still be moving beyond c, wouldn't it become energy or am I completely off the ball here?
I'll take your word for it for the time being.Darth Wong wrote:Bullshit. Warp fields will create stress; their cessation will not.Robert Walper wrote:I wasn't referring to the ship's relative velocities, Mike. I was pointing out the sudden disapearance of the warp fields surrounding both ships, coupled with the destruction of both vessels could have resulted in some very extreme effects/stresses effectively destroying anything worthwhile obtaining later on.
I refer you to your own page on how physical impacts can impart more destructive damage then energy ones, despite possessing less energy. Particularily if a smaller craft is rammed by a craft dwarfing it in both volume and mass.That's a possibility, but it merely points to the fact that S-8472 is not invincible, and tissue samples could have been obtained if the Borg were smart enough to try.Hell, the explosion alone, ignoring warp "variables" and effects, could easily have vaporized any viable material to work with.
So after the Borg declared themselves victorious in a battle Species 8472, they could easily retrieve...oh wait. The Borg never won a battle against Species 8472. A single bio ship can dust fifteen of their top end vessels without apparently breaking a sweat and nine of them can destroy an entire Borg planet. Darn.Hell, bits of them probably got blown off during combat.
I have yet to see you provide a good example of where the Borg had a practical method of acquiring a tissue sample of Species 8472. And I'm still puzzled by your apparent belief Species 8472 would not attempt to prevent the Borg from accomplishing just that. Unless you're going to submit Species 8472 did not examine and analyse Borg debris and technology, despite them having access and time, neither of which the Borg did.The warp speed is irrelevant, and since the bio-ships are supposedly much tougher than the Borg cubes I don't see why there shouldn't be at least microscopic fragments. Never mind the fact that they OBVIOUSLY WEREN'T EVEN TRYING TO GET SAMPLES; a fact that you studiously ignore in your pathetic "noooo, the Borg can't be stupid because I'm the whiny Borg fanboy!!" argument.That would be dependent upon viable material having survived the destruction(highly questionable), the Borg reaching the site first, and the Borg being able to outrun pursuit by Species 8472 ships. Alot of "if's" dependent upon a dubious claim of viable material having survived the destruction of both vessels while at warp speeds.
Which implies they were unable to gather a sample like Voyager, which "coincidentally", was not pursued and destroyed by the Species 8472 bioship(a tactical error, but I don't consider Species 8472 infallible). Too bad Species 8472 was not so forgiving with Borg vessels.Did they come up with a solution, despite already knowing something about how the Holo-Doc did it? No.And frankly, I fail to see how you can assert the Borg didn't investigate the site afterwards, since we don't know either way.
If Voyager comes across whole wreakage fields, what's stopping the Borg from simply going back? By suggesting that they won't go back simply because they were beaten there only once before makes them look even more stupid.So after the Borg declared themselves victorious in a battle Species 8472, they could easily retrieve...oh wait. The Borg never won a battle against Species 8472. A single bio ship can dust fifteen of their top end vessels without apparently breaking a sweat and nine of them can destroy an entire Borg planet. Darn.
"Sir! We just lost fifteen of our top end vessels to a single enemy craft in sector 123. Our last readings indicated our craft were obliterated and we did insignificant damage in return."StarshipTitanic wrote:If Voyager comes across whole wreakage fields, what's stopping the Borg from simply going back? By suggesting that they won't go back simply because they were beaten there only once before makes them look even more stupid.So after the Borg declared themselves victorious in a battle Species 8472, they could easily retrieve...oh wait. The Borg never won a battle against Species 8472. A single bio ship can dust fifteen of their top end vessels without apparently breaking a sweat and nine of them can destroy an entire Borg planet. Darn.
Yes, because the person would be thinking in terms of strategy, not tactics. There is a strategic incentive to analyze the remains of a battlefield if at all possible, particularly when your usual method of obtaining information about the enemy isn't working. Your idiotic attempt to disprove this point is to show that it is not good tactics to risk your ships for a crucial strategic objective. Yet again, you prove that you're an idiot.Robert Walper wrote:"Sir! We just lost fifteen of our top end vessels to a single enemy craft in sector 123. Our last readings indicated our craft were obliterated and we did insignificant damage in return."
"Shit...well, as the resident tactical genius, I say let's weaken our planetary defences and stretch our fleet out further by sending another armada of ships to that location. Perhaps they'll have better luck."
Brilliant...
So you're suggesting the Borg should have weakened their planetary defences and continued spreading out their fleet sending ships to locations where they just finished losing a battle(incredibly one sided one to boot), even when they had a numerical advantage of fifteen to one? I'm sorry, but that sounds incredibly stupid to me.Darth Wong wrote:Yes, because the person would be thinking in terms of strategy, not tactics. There is a strategic incentive to analyze the remains of a battlefield if at all possible, particularly when your usual method of obtaining information about the enemy isn't working. Your idiotic attempt to disprove this point is to show that it is not good tactics to risk your ships for a crucial strategic objective. Yet again, you prove that you're an idiot.Robert Walper wrote:"Sir! We just lost fifteen of our top end vessels to a single enemy craft in sector 123. Our last readings indicated our craft were obliterated and we did insignificant damage in return."
"Shit...well, as the resident tactical genius, I say let's weaken our planetary defences and stretch our fleet out further by sending another armada of ships to that location. Perhaps they'll have better luck."
Brilliant...
Good thing you're not a leader of any military force, then. If you are facing a superior enemy who can easily brush aside your planetary defenses anyway, what's the fucking point of using your ships to do anything but attempting to learn more about the enemy? Are you really such a fucking imbecile that you can't figure this out?Robert Walper wrote:So you're suggesting the Borg should have weakened their planetary defences and continued spreading out their fleet sending ships to locations where they just finished losing a battle(incredibly one sided one to boot), even when they had a numerical advantage of fifteen to one? I'm sorry, but that sounds incredibly stupid to me.
That's why you send 50 vessels, transport samples aboard from tens of thousands of kilometres away, and then run away, moron. It can't simultaneously follow them all and it doesn't even know which ones carry samples. Jesus Assmoneky, didn't the option of sending more than one ship or collecting more than one sample even occur to you? Are you really this dense?I think the Borg had every reason to avoid space under control by Species 8472...that was a central point of the entire episode. Voyager lucked out big time by getting a sample of Species 8472 tissue, and were incredibly lucky the bioship didn't pursue them. I highly doubt the bioship would have been so forgiving with any Borg vessels.
Now if we could reasonable suggest the Borg could get close to Species 8472 without having their asses handed to them, you might have a point. Unfortunately, that is not the case.Darth Wong wrote:Good thing you're not a leader of any military force, then. If you are facing a superior enemy who can easily brush aside your planetary defenses anyway, what's the fucking point of using your ships to do anything but attempting to learn more about the enemy? Are you really such a fucking imbecile that you can't figure this out?Robert Walper wrote:So you're suggesting the Borg should have weakened their planetary defences and continued spreading out their fleet sending ships to locations where they just finished losing a battle(incredibly one sided one to boot), even when they had a numerical advantage of fifteen to one? I'm sorry, but that sounds incredibly stupid to me.
Which would only require Species 8472 to deploy 3-4 of their ships to turn that armada of 50 Borg cubes into an even bigger debris field.That's why you send 50 vessels,I think the Borg had every reason to avoid space under control by Species 8472...that was a central point of the entire episode. Voyager lucked out big time by getting a sample of Species 8472 tissue, and were incredibly lucky the bioship didn't pursue them. I highly doubt the bioship would have been so forgiving with any Borg vessels.
Transporter functions are interfered with by Species 8472 tissue. Voyager couldn't beam out Kim because of this, not until Torres employed some on-the-fly-jury-rigged-never-heard-of-before "skeletal lock".transport samples aboard from tens of thousands of kilometres away,
I like how you're completely dismissing any attempt on Species 8472's part to counter this armada of cubes, and also insisting the single bioship would attempt to handle that many cubes by itself. Like calling reinforcements, or considering Species 8472's response time might be much faster, or that Species 8472 could have superior sensor range, etc. Not to mention your entire plan rested upon usage of the transporters, which as I pointed out, wouldn't have worked anyway.and then run away, moron. It can't simultaneously follow them all and it doesn't even know which ones carry samples. Jesus Assmoneky, didn't the option of sending more than one ship or collecting more than one sample even occur to you? Are you really this dense?
Bullshit. Voyager was able to do it, the Borg can too. They even had drones who were able to achieve contact with the enemy bioships, as shown onscreen, and they could have waited until the S-8472 pilot left and then just scooped up Borg drones who were killed by it, since it leaves traces of its own cellular matter in its victims, you moron.Robert Walper wrote:Now if we could reasonable suggest the Borg could get close to Species 8472 without having their asses handed to them, you might have a point. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Assuming instantaneous deployment? More bullshit.Which would only require Species 8472 to deploy 3-4 of their ships to turn that armada of 50 Borg cubes into an even bigger debris field.That's why you send 50 vessels,
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to argue that Borg transporter technology was inferior to Federation transporter technology. I take it you will conveniently forget this argument later when you're trying to whore the invincible Borg again?Transporter functions are interfered with by Species 8472 tissue. Voyager couldn't beam out Kim because of this, not until Torres employed some on-the-fly-jury-rigged-never-heard-of-before "skeletal lock".transport samples aboard from tens of thousands of kilometres away,
This was made clear in said episode, but I take it you missed that.
More bullshit wankery; if Species 8472 had that kind of response ability, it wouldn't have taken them that long to track down Voyager.I like how you're completely dismissing any attempt on Species 8472's part to counter this armada of cubes, and also insisting the single bioship would attempt to handle that many cubes by itself. Like calling reinforcements, or considering Species 8472's response time might be much faster, or that Species 8472 could have superior sensor range, etc. Not to mention your entire plan rested upon usage of the transporters, which as I pointed out, wouldn't have worked anyway.and then run away, moron. It can't simultaneously follow them all and it doesn't even know which ones carry samples. Jesus Assmoneky, didn't the option of sending more than one ship or collecting more than one sample even occur to you? Are you really this dense?
Of course they attacked and destroyed them, moron! They're not trying to recapture territory; all they need to do is grab a sample and RUN AWAY; what part of this are you too fucking stupid to understand? Your argument is based on the idea that Species 8472 is basically omniscient and can instantaneously deploy anywhere in order to destroy any cube which is trying to collect any one of the countless available samples of their tissue. If this were the case, why did the Borg even last six months, moron?As I pointed out earlier, the fact that the Borg avoided space under control by Species 8472 heavily suggests they aggressively attacked and destroyed any Borg incursions into space they had acquired.
I still can't believe you are acting as though Voyager's ability to do all these things without even trying does not disprove your moronic assertion that the entire Borg Collective couldn't have devised a way to do it.This would make any information gathering next to impossible, particularily in light of the fact that when Voyager reached the "Northwest Passage", they witnessed hundreds of bioships in that single area alone. And the Northwest Passage stretched far enough across Borg space to make the Voyager crew consider it a feasible path of travel through it.
I take it then you're unfamilar with Star Trek's habit of routinely "inventing" new uses with current technology on the fly, which then are never heard of again, even when they would be enormously useful.Jon wrote:It's almost impossible to believe that the Borg, who are supposedly so superior to the Fenderation and all other races but 8472, had to ally with Voyager in order to attain the technology to assimilate these assbandits from fluidic space- I cannot believe it, even when I watch back the episodes- that the thinking power of the collective, the same collective who can adapt to any weapons frequency after encountering it 3 or 4 times- can't even work out how to beam through the organic ships. And unless Torres magically invented a 'skeletal' lock, I'm sure the Borg assimilated enough humans/fed citizens to know of it's existance too.
Note how Mike is delibrately misinterpreting what I said and suggesting I was implying Federation technology was superior to Borg, when in fact I was pointing out that the transporter was merely being used in a manner never heard of or seen before. So much so that Janeway commented on it to Torress after she did it.Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to argue that Borg transporter technology was inferior to Federation transporter technology. I take it you will conveniently forget this argument later when you're trying to whore the invincible Borg again?
Notice how the ignorant moron totally ignores 90% of my post in order to seize upon what he views as a misinterpretation, when the notion of using mineral-tracking sensors to lock onto the minerals in a target object is so fucking obvious that if the Federation didn't think of it before, they must be absolute imbeciles. Not to mention the obvious countermeasure of simply walking away, in order to put distance between yourself and the source of interference, or the various other countermeasures I pointed out, not least of which is the fact that they can even wait until the pilot leaves and then casually pick up samples from the drones that it killed.Robert Walper wrote:Note Mike's response:Note how Mike is delibrately misinterpreting what I said and suggesting I was implying Federation technology was superior to Borg, when in fact I was pointing out that the transporter was merely being used in a manner never heard of or seen before. So much so that Janeway commented on it to Torress after she did it.Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to argue that Borg transporter technology was inferior to Federation transporter technology. I take it you will conveniently forget this argument later when you're trying to whore the invincible Borg again?
And since it was never done again, it was probably more akin to what the Traveller does than a mere re-application of existing technology, but that obviously hasn't occurred to your infantile mind, asshole.By this token, he could argue the Borg are "stupid" or "inferior to Federation technology" because they have never modifed subspace fields like Uber Barclay did in that one episode where he flung the Enterprise to the center of the galaxy within a minute or two with his enhanced intelligence.
Let us not forget the battle between the Borg tactical cube and Voyger During the battle Borg needed treknobabble to bypass Voygers shields. Even then direct hits on the hull by Borg torpedoes failed to destroy Voyger.Jon wrote:It's almost impossible to believe that the Borg, who are supposedly so superior to the Fenderation and all other races but 8472, had to ally with Voyager in order to attain the technology to assimilate these assbandits from fluidic space- I cannot believe it, even when I watch back the episodes- that the thinking power of the collective, the same collective who can adapt to any weapons frequency after encountering it 3 or 4 times- can't even work out how to beam through the organic ships. And unless Torres magically invented a 'skeletal' lock, I'm sure the Borg assimilated enough humans/fed citizens to know of it's existance too.
I am well aware that tech is 'invented' at the whim of the writers but I thought suspension of disbelief was your thing? I could have turned around and said the writing team suck but I attempting to rationalize. What's the point in even arguing in defence if you are going to back out of it with this shit about 'trek routinely invents useful tech for plot advancement'. Can't have it both ways...Robert Walper wrote:I take it then you're unfamilar with Star Trek's habit of routinely "inventing" new uses with current technology on the fly, which then are never heard of again, even when they would be enormously useful.Jon wrote:It's almost impossible to believe that the Borg, who are supposedly so superior to the Fenderation and all other races but 8472, had to ally with Voyager in order to attain the technology to assimilate these assbandits from fluidic space- I cannot believe it, even when I watch back the episodes- that the thinking power of the collective, the same collective who can adapt to any weapons frequency after encountering it 3 or 4 times- can't even work out how to beam through the organic ships. And unless Torres magically invented a 'skeletal' lock, I'm sure the Borg assimilated enough humans/fed citizens to know of it's existance too.
Note Mike's response:
Note how Mike is delibrately misinterpreting what I said and suggesting I was implying Federation technology was superior to Borg, when in fact I was pointing out that the transporter was merely being used in a manner never heard of or seen before. So much so that Janeway commented on it to Torress after she did it.Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were trying to argue that Borg transporter technology was inferior to Federation transporter technology. I take it you will conveniently forget this argument later when you're trying to whore the invincible Borg again?
By this token, he could argue the Borg are "stupid" or "inferior to Federation technology" because they have never modifed subspace fields like Uber Barclay did in that one episode where he flung the Enterprise to the center of the galaxy within a minute or two with his enhanced intelligence.
I suppose the fact I only had a couple of minutes to post before heading off the work wouldn't cut it with you, huh? I quoted you on the specific point also brought by another person to further illustrate my point and answer their criticism. Sorry Mike, you may be the head huncho around here, but that doesn't mean I can answer your replies immediately. I had a choice of answering one small reply or none at all. Sorry if that ticked you off.Darth Wong wrote: I do not appreciate it when someone ignores virtually all of my points in order to seize upon a nitpick, Walper. I will remember this.