Did the Cardassians have it coming?

[TheDarkling]

And you do not see the relevance of Federation citizens conducting business outside of Federation territory, and by extension outside Federation law and jurisdiction? The Maquis were federation citizens too, until they broke away. That didn't stop Starfleet from hunting them down, inspite of the fact they severed formal ties with the government, and were conducting a private war against the Cardassian occupiers.

No I don't see the relevance, Yates may work inside Federation space as well, Kivas Fajo was a rather rich chap and we know he worked in Federation space, you alleged Yates is an exception to the rule but you have very little reason to think so.

You fail to mention how Sisko is the Emissary of the Prophets, the Bajor's Holy Man. I doubt he so much bought it as was given it by the fundie Bajorans. Furthermore, even in Communist states people have to live somewhere. People in the Inner Party are allowed luxuries like that, and Sisko is certainly a war hero. Oh, and need I point out how Sisko buying land on an alien planet actually supports the position that Earth is a communist state?

No you need not, Sisko was buying that land because he wanted to live on Bajor and not because he couldn't buy land on Earth and Sisko said he bought the land alleging that he used his influence to get it for free is unfounded.

You neglect to mention that the operation was illegal in the first place. Besides, this doesn't actually prove your position at all.

It shows that Federation citizens can raise large amounts of cash.

Who owns his or her own transport? Kassidy owned her ship, and did her business outside of Federation territory. Okona was a self-confessed rogue - since when do rogues care about authority? Anyone else beside them, who do their business inside Federation territory? Hey, what about Jake Sisko? Nope, needs to book transport - or get's driven by his dad in a runabout. All his publications get beamed out by subspace transmitters - which funnily enough are owned by the Federation.

Kivas Farjo worked inside Federation space and was obviously very rich, I think the main reason we don’t see many freighters in Federation space is because the only trading outpost we see in Trek is outside Federation space, however I don't recall Kassidy complaining (or Quark for that matter) that when Bajor enters the Federation they will have to move on.

Your opinion doesn't equal fact.

Concession accepted on that point.

We should be able to see something, but we don't.

We don't on the capitalist worlds either thus it proves nothing.

These things existed under a Communist state, y'know. What CDiehl was referring to was travel by tourists, something we don't see.

Tourists do travel, there are planets devoted to tourism. Now if I was going to go abroad on holiday I would book passage n a plane I would not jump onto my own private jet because I (like most people) don't have one, this is the exact same behaviour we see from Federation citizens.

Bollocks. The facts fit the theory, whereas your counter-claims don't significantly prove your position.

Because you ignore them in order to make your theory fit.

Yay! Magic Replicator, replicate my problems awwaaaay... Oh wait, that doesn't prove anything, does it?

HE asked a question and I answered it.

Who made Riker's trombone?

Computer I would like a Trombone.

See above.

Except that culturally fed civilians have an aversion to "real" food, as evidenced by Keiko O'Brian's comment in Data's Day:

That was real "meat" and if people have such an aversion to real food why is Joe Sisko restaurant always full? Why do people order real food in Quarks, why does Sisko cook real food n eth station for his command staff? Why do the Picards not have a food replicator in their home?

Keiko apparently had an aversion to real food but it seems many others do not.

Working in a job? Ah cool - so where's the paycheck? Picard, Riker et al "work" in a "job" which one assumes is high-risk; therefore, they should get a paycheck at the end of the week, or fortnight or something. But they don't. No-one in Grandpa Sisko's restaurant asks for the bill. The Picard family doesn't seem to export their wine (if, as you say, it's a business).

You are assuming because we don't see anybody ask for the bill (in the 20 minutes we have ever spent in the restaurant) that they haven't and how you come to the conclusion that the Picards don't export their wine is beyond me - have you got anything to back that up?

I can't remember Jake or the Doctor getting commissions for their publications. Vash adventured the galaxy, getting relics from several civilisations. What does she do when she returns to the AQ? Holds a private auction, run by Quark, a Ferengi citizen, so she can keep the profits for herself and not have to "donate" the items to the Daystrom Institute.

Vash must have slipped through the mind control net.

Emphasis mine.

Nobody starves? Nobody goes homeless? What about the citizens of Turkana (Tasha Yar's homeplanet?) She looked pretty homeless, and was constantly on the run by rape gangs. Now, I know what you're going to say: "Turkana wasn't a federation world! It doesn't count!" Well, sorry but it was a federation world - it severed contact, yes - but it was a federation world.

Prove it, there is no evidence it is or ever was a Federation world so first you must prove it was a Federation world, then you must prove that things went to hell before they broke away.

Everybody lives a life of luxury? If so, then why don't we see examples of private ownership of the following 2 items: Spaceships and Fancy Clothing? No-one has their own ship, and everyone wears the same crappy one-piece jumpsuit.

I'm just guessing here but I think if you watch the show it may become apparent that that jumpsuit is a uniform, people do have fancy clothes (at least according to there fashions I would guess) including some abstract pieces for use in the holosuite which Julian and the Chief order from Garak.

As for private starships, luxury doesn't equal ownership of the equivalent of a Private aircraft.

No-one wears furs anymore, or some kind of armani suit, or in fact anything "expensive." People wear luxury on their sleeves, and ride it to town. No-one does this in the federation.

I imagine the prejudices against "enslaving animals" for meat probably extents into doing the same for clothing and just because we don't see people wearing suits doesn't mean they can't get them (they can easily get Tuxs as Vic Fontaines holosuit program proves) so maybe they just went out of style.

Most menial jobs seem to be gone? Replaced by the Magic All-powerful Replicator, yes? Even magic-tech has its limits. Where does the biomass come from to make replicated dinner? What about the materials to make replicated infrastructure? What about the power generators to power the replicators? Where does all that come from?

I would like a quote proving that replicated dinners require biomass to be made, as for where it comes from (if they need it) it could easily be grown in an automated fashion and the power would be provided by the power grid which is also heavily automated (possibly run by starfleet?? but I'm not sure).
They could simply have the materials necessary to sue mined, we know there are mining companies that exist and that work for the Federation inside Federation space (although some will still assume that they aren't a Fed company I am sure).

The government doesn't abuse its power? Bullshit. It keeps plague outbreaks classified, whole colonies are abandoned to the Cardassians,

I don't agree with what they did with the Cardassians but it is their mandate to create peace treaties, such things have been done during human history.

you can't make any communique without going through Starfleet monitored channels,

And I assume you have proof of their wide scale Starfleet monitoring of communications? (gee how oppressed I was when BT was owned by the British government).

you can't go anywhere without booking passage,

True of planes these days.

you can't do business inside the Federation,

You have failed to prove that

you can own property but you can't invest in it, a concept Picard couldn't even recognise.

I watched the episode in question yesterday, point out where Picard shows he doesn't understand investment (the word isn't even mentioned in his presence from what I recall).

Starfleet's ability to defend it's planets are laughable, to say the least. We see capital ships the size of the Enterprise being used to ferry colonists. Where are the privately owned transport ships?

Maybe it is just cheaper (as in free) to get the Federation to support setting up you colony.

Now you have yet to prove anything or suitable refute anything else I said, come back with proof o your accusations (Turkana IV and so on) and maybe we can get somewhere until then you have very little.

[Stofsk]

No I don't see the relevance, Yates may work inside Federation space as well, Kivas Fajo was a rather rich chap and we know he worked in Federation space, you alleged Yates is an exception to the rule but you have very little reason to think so.

The relevance is that if private enterprise is possible in the Federation, which would show them to be capitalistic, then we would see it happen within their borders. Kivas Fajo might very well be the exception to the rule. You have very little reason to think otherwise either. However, since Kasidy Yates never said she was a Federation citizen (and neither did Kivas Fajo) neither one can be used as an example of the Federation's capitalistic tendencies.

And in case you're wondering, Communist countries did practice trade amongst themselves; Kivas Fajo doesn't disprove this. What Kassidy Yates did was trade with others, outside of Federation territory, and she owned her own ship, and she paid her own crew with latinum (instead of federation credits).

No you need not, Sisko was buying that land because he wanted to live on Bajor and not because he couldn't buy land on Earth and Sisko said he bought the land alleging that he used his influence to get it for free is unfounded.

Yes, but he doesn't consider buying Earth land anyway - Bajor means a lot to him, so he wants to live there. But it's possible to buy land there, and the same possibility isn't shown to exist on Earth. As for Sisko's influence being unfounded? Please, his position gives him access to privilege among the Bajorans, as well as some clout to swing around - witness how he prevented the Bajoran admission into the Federation due to a hallucination, and they bought it. I also seem to remember trips to the Firecaves or some shit which his position as Emissary grants him. His influence on Bajor is not unfounded.

Tourists do travel, there are planets devoted to tourism. Now if I was going to go abroad on holiday I would book passage n a plane I would not jump onto my own private jet because I (like most people) don't have one, this is the exact same behaviour we see from Federation citizens.

No it isn't. If you want to go abroad and visit a foreign land you have to book passage and have a passport etc. If you want to go interstate you don't have to present papers. Travelling internally within the Federation is the equivalent of travelling internally within a country. Federation citizens have to book passage to visit planets within the Federation! Travel to various neighbouring states is prohibited (the RSE, for instance, the Cardassian Empire is another)!

It shows that Federation citizens can raise large amounts of cash.

To pay for an illegal practice. Tell me, do they pay the alien doctor to perform said illegal operation with Federation credits or gold-press latinum? If in the former, you have a case.

Kivas Farjo worked inside Federation space and was obviously very rich, I think the main reason we don't see many freighters in Federation space is because the only trading outpost we see in Trek is outside Federation space, however I don't recall Kassidy complaining (or Quark for that matter) that when Bajor enters the Federation they will have to move on.

Kivas Fajo was unscrupulous and a criminal, your reason for why we don't see federation trade is bizarre and doesn't make sense (especially since it supports my position), Kassidy doesn't complain because she had been "rehabilitated" after being tried and convicted for aiding the Maquis (who weren't Federation citizens), and Quark is a survivor. He lived under the Cardassians and thrived. In fact, it was when they pulled out and the Federation moved in that he considered moving on ("Emissary").

We don't on the capitalist worlds either thus it proves nothing.

Agreed.

Yay! Magic Replicator, replicate my problems awwaaaay... Oh wait, that doesn't prove anything, does it?

HE asked a question and I answered it.

Great answer. Let's look at what you wrote in response to:

What brand of shaver does LaForge use?

?Replicator I would like a shaver please.?

So he asked where all the miscellaneous items we use and take for granted come from in the ST universe. You reply with a flippant response that doesn't actually prove anything, lest you want to offer an episode where Riker orders the replicator to give him some shaving cream? The same goes for your trombone quote. Essentially Magic Replicators can make anything right - regardless of material, or raw matter?

You are assuming because we don't see anybody ask for the bill (in the 20 minutes we have ever spent in the restaurant) that they haven't and how you come to the conclusion that the Picards don't export their wine is beyond me - have you got anything to back that up?

They don't show it onscreen, therefore there is no reason to assume they do. Understand? You are the one who believes the Picard vineyard is a privately-owned business. Therefore, you prove that they conduct the vineyard as a business, which includes exporting their stock to buyers.
You are the one who believes the restaurant is an example of privately run business - prove that it is, show me Grandpa Sisko looking over the monthly profit&loss figures for his restaurant.

It is perfectly valid to assume they don't because it isn't shown. It is not valid to assume they do without proof. So kindly provide the proof.

Vash must have slipped through the mind control net.

Ah, and I said she must have been subject to brainwashing... when? Here's a clue: I didn't. Vash simply didn't want to give away her relics, which she went through the trouble of finding and excavating, to a state-run institute. She wanted the money for herself. So who does she go to? Quark, who isn't a Federation citizen. And what does he do? Organise a private auction in neutral territory.

Prove it, there is no evidence it is or ever was a Federation world so first you must prove it was a Federation world, then you must prove that things went to hell before they broke away.

Of course. Here ya go:

PICARD VO: Captain's log, supplemental. We are in orbit above Turkana Four, an Earth colony that severed relations with the Federation nearly fifteen years ago. I am concerned about sending an away team, but if we are to discover the fate of the two missing Federation crewmen, I see no alternative.

Emphasis mine.

Well now, what's this? Turkana IV, an Earth Colony? And look - it severed relations 15 years ago, that must mean they had relations in the first place. What I said earlier about Tasha Yar looking homeless and on the run from rapegangs still stands. The Federation isn't perfect - the fact that a former colony could be allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair speaks well of this fact.

I'm just guessing here but I think if you watch the show it may become apparent that that jumpsuit is a uniform, people do have fancy clothes (at least according to there fashions I would guess) including some abstract pieces for use in the holosuite which Julian and the Chief order from Garak.

Of course the starfleet jumpsuit is a uniform, idiot. So why do Civilians wear jumpsuits as well? (Jake in particular) Why do they have to wear "uniforms"? As for Garak, when did he become a Federation citizen?

As for private starships, luxury doesn't equal ownership of the equivalent of a Private aircraft.

Actually, one would assume it does - since ownership of a starship (or a private learjet) would require a nice fat bank account. And one would also assume that the freedom to travel wherever one wishes to go would equal luxury as well.

I would like a quote proving that replicated dinners require biomass to be made, as for where it comes from (if they need it) it could easily be grown in an automated fashion and the power would be provided by the power grid which is also heavily automated (possibly run by starfleet?? but I'm not sure).

Common sense. Or do you really believe Magic Replicators can replicate everything, without needing materials to replicate it from? There are a lot of things that replicators can't replicate - this means there are limits to their use. If we've established that there are limits, then why assume otherwise (which is what you're doing)? Furthermore, how do you know it would be easy to grow it in an automated fashion?

As for the second point, the part where you write that the power is provided by Starfleet (which is true), this only proves the methods of production are state-run, a further sign that the Federation is communist.

They could simply have the materials necessary to sue mined, we know there are mining companies that exist and that work for the Federation inside Federation space (although some will still assume that they aren't a Fed company I am sure).

And quite rightly so, if there is nothing to suggest that private corporations go around mining planets. The Dytalix B mining Corp is the only corp mentioned ("Conspiracy" season 1) and it is defunct by Picard's time. Ezri Dax's folks run a mining corporation, outside Federation territory.

I don't agree with what they did with the Cardassians but it is their mandate to create peace treaties, such things have been done during human history.

Absolutely, but the reason I bring it up is to show you the Federation is not perfect, and that it doesn't abuse its power. Well, abandoning Federation colonies to the Cardassians, without considering what those colonists might think of the subject, is an example of executive abuse. If a democracy did that the party would be out by next election - if not sooner by riots on the streets. In a one-party communist state, what are the citizenry to do?

And I assume you have proof of their wide scale Starfleet monitoring of communications? (gee how oppressed I was when BT was owned by the British government).

The subspace relay system is owned by the Federation government (stated in the DS9 tech manual, I believe), and this fact isn't contradicted by canon. There are examples in canon where communications were blocked out quite easily ("Paradise Lost"). The end-transmission logo is the Federation symbol, which suggests ownership. Furthermore, no-one knew that Leyton attempted his coup (mainly because we never hear from him again), and there were those plague outbreaks that became restricted information.

you can't go anywhere without booking passage,

True of planes these days.

Yes, but not of interstate travel with a privately owned car or jet.

I watched the episode in question yesterday, point out where Picard shows he doesn't understand investment (the word isn't even mentioned in his presence from what I recall).

Perhaps not, but he makes some rather telling quotes of his own:

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

No material needs, eh? Still don't think the federation is a communist state?

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

No longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things." No more possessions. Somehow it's infantile to want things.

RALPH (freshly awakened from centuries of cryofreeze): I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.
BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Why would Crusher say this if cost-for-services-rendered is a common practice in the Federation?

Hmm... maybe because it isn't a common practice, in fact she succinctly states she has no idea what he's talking about, which suggests it is an alien concept to her. Now why would this concept be alien if she's a member of a capitalist/democratic governed nation?

Maybe it is just cheaper (as in free) to get the Federation to support setting up you colony.

Oh shit - and that somehow proves the Federation isn't communist? The military transport colonists because they can, and that doesn't prove the Federation is communist? The Federation Starfleet is responsible for transporting colonists, and that doesn't prove the method of transportation isn't run by the government? Jesus, put 2 and 2 together.

EDIT: I neglected to mention that the quotes and the line about the DS9 tech manual came from Darth Wong's site, the former from his database on ST quotes, the latter from the essay he wrote in regards to this very topic.

[TheDarkling]

The relevance is that if private enterprise is possible in the Federation, which would show them to be capitalistic, then we would see it happen within their borders. Kivas Fajo might very well be the exception to the rule. You have very little reason to think otherwise either. However, since Kasidy Yates never said she was a Federation citizen (and neither did Kivas Fajo) neither one can be used as an example of the Federation's capitalistic tendencies.

And in case you're wondering, Communist countries did practice trade amongst themselves; Kivas Fajo doesn't disprove this. What Kassidy Yates did was trade with others, outside of Federation territory, and she owned her own ship, and she paid her own crew with latinum (instead of federation credits).

Proof she paid her crew in Latinium and proof that federation credits exist post TOS (I don't doubt the former but I don't recall it happening).

Yes, but he doesn't consider buying Earth land anyway - Bajor means a lot to him, so he wants to live there. But it's possible to buy land there, and the same possibility isn't shown to exist on Earth.

So you are separating Earth from the Federation (because buying land on Bajor after its admission to the Federation was considered) when it comes to economic style, I don't necessarily disagree I just want to know what exactly your position is.

As for Sisko's influence being unfounded? Please, his position gives him access to privilege among the Bajorans, as well as some clout to swing around - witness how he prevented the Bajoran admission into the Federation due to a hallucination, and they bought it. I also seem to remember trips to the Firecaves or some shit which his position as Emissary grants him. His influence on Bajor is not unfounded.

I never said it was, you asserted he used his position to get the Bajors to gave him the land (at least to my reading) which was unfounded.

No it isn't. If you want to go abroad and visit a foreign land you have to book passage and have a passport etc. If you want to go interstate you don't have to present papers. Travelling internally within the Federation is the equivalent of travelling internally within a country. Federation citizens have to book passage to visit planets within the Federation! Travel to various neighbouring states is prohibited (the RSE, for instance, the Cardassian Empire is another)!

That analogy only works if the Federation is similar to the US federal government and the planets are states, the UFP could be more similar to the EU and finally thee is no evidence that private transportation is forbidden only that it isn't common (for expense reasons or because nobody sees the point) we do know Noonien Soong had a small craft capable of inter system travel.

We also don't know if passenger manifests are actually checked(requiring papers), it could simply be that a record is kept of how is buying tickets for "flights" whcih isn't exactly unreasonable.

To pay for an illegal practice. Tell me, do they pay the alien doctor to perform said illegal operation with Federation credits or gold-press latinum? If in the former, you have a case.

No I have a case either way (and don't forget to provide Federation credit evidence) since it proves earning large amounts of valuable currency is possible.

Kivas Fajo was unscrupulous and a criminal, your reason for why we don't see federation trade is bizarre and doesn't make sense (especially since it supports my position), Kassidy doesn't complain because she had been "rehabilitated" after being tried and convicted for aiding the Maquis (who weren't Federation citizens), and Quark is a survivor. He lived under the Cardassians and thrived. In fact, it was when they pulled out and the Federation moved in that he considered moving on ("Emissary").

The amount of bull in the paragraph above is amazing.

I see no evidence Kassidy was brain washed, Kivas Fajo being a criminal has no bearing on what we are talking about, Quark thriving under the Cardassians (capitalists) also proves nothing and finally Quark was going to move on because he thought the Federation was going to get kicked out when the Bajoran government fell and he would be put up against the wall and shot - THAT was his concern as I am sure you well know.

So he asked where all the miscellaneous items we use and take for granted come from in the ST universe. You reply with a flippant response that doesn't actually prove anything, lest you want to offer an episode where Riker orders the replicator to give him some shaving cream? The same goes for your trombone quote. Essentially Magic Replicators can make anything right - regardless of material, or raw matter?

No but they can make shavers and the like, they can guns, cakes, guitars, hats, uniforms and so on, he asked where La Forger gets his shaver and I told him.

They don't show it onscreen, therefore there is no reason to assume they do.

You don't wish me to put out the tired old tale about never seeing a toilet do you (although technically it isn't true it proves a point).

Understand? You are the one who believes the Picard vineyard is a privately-owned business. Therefore, you prove that they conduct the vineyard as a business, which includes exporting their stock to buyers.
You are the one who believes the restaurant is an example of privately run business - prove that it is, show me Grandpa Sisko looking over the monthly profit&loss figures for his restaurant.

I am afraid not, it looks in every manner similar to a usual business you allege they don't export wine, you made a specific claim with no evidence to back it up.

It is perfectly valid to assume they don't because it isn't shown. It is not valid to assume they do without proof. So kindly provide the proof.

Rubbish, you made a claim so back it up.
If I walked onto a farm to ask for directions then left again I do nt see any direct evidence of them selling their goods but I know they do if somebody told me they burnt their goods as a sacrifice to the moon god I would want proof.

Ah, and I said she must have been subject to brainwashing... when?

I never said you did, although other people who share your views on the Federation do believe such(since they believe greed has been eliminated by mind control, since it couldn't have happened any other way).

Here's a clue: I didn't. Vash simply didn't want to give away her relics, which she went through the trouble of finding and excavating, to a state-run institute. She wanted the money for herself. So who does she go to? Quark, who isn't a Federation citizen. And what does he do? Organise a private auction in neutral territory.

Your view on the truth is worthy of a politician, Quark came to her and was already in neutral territory, what is of relevance is that there are members of Federation races in the audience bidding.

Well now, what's this? Turkana IV, an Earth Colony? And look - it severed relations 15 years ago, that must mean they had relations in the first place. What I said earlier about Tasha Yar looking homeless and on the run from rapegangs still stands. The Federation isn't perfect - the fact that a former colony could be allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair speaks well of this fact.

here is a counter quote.

PICARD
Prepare as always. If force is
needed we will use it, but that
will mean we have failed. Our
goal here is to establish some
kind of relations with the
Romulans

I assume it is your assertion that Picard was sent to ask the Romulans to join the Federation?

Allow me to point out the obvious, relations does not imply they were a part of the Federation.

As for Earth colony - that again proves nothing and the only other record of the term (TNG+) Earth Colony was in reference to a non federation world.

Of course the starfleet jumpsuit is a uniform, idiot. So why do Civilians wear jumpsuits as well? (Jake in particular) Why do they have to wear "uniforms"? As for Garak, when did he become a Federation citizen?

Fashion maybe? They don't all wear jumpsuits all the time people on Earth seem to wear normal clothing, the O’Brien’s wear normal clothing (when the chief isn't in uniform) and so on.

As for Garak being a Federation citizen, I said Federation citizens order clothes off him, was I really so unclear?

Actually, one would assume it does - since ownership of a starship (or a private learjet) would require a nice fat bank account. And one would also assume that the freedom to travel wherever one wishes to go would equal luxury as well.

I could live in luxury and still not have my own private plane but prehaps we differ on what is considered luxury.

Common sense. Or do you really believe Magic Replicators can replicate everything, without needing materials to replicate it from? There are a lot of things that replicators can't replicate - this means there are limits to their use. If we've established that there are limits, then why assume otherwise (which is what you're doing)? Furthermore, how do you know it would be easy to grow it in an automated fashion?

So you have no proof, you have nothing to back up your claims.

As for asking me how easy it is to grow, I don't really know but since you are asserting hat menial jobs exist in what is required for food replication I expect you to prove it (after first proving these things are required for food replication).

As for the second point, the part where you write that the power is provided by Starfleet (which is true), this only proves the methods of production are state-run, a further sign that the Federation is communist.

State run utilities doesn't prove communism and does occur in not communist states(.

And quite rightly so, if there is nothing to suggest that private corporations go around mining planets. The Dytalix B mining Corp is the only corp mentioned ("Conspiracy" season 1) and it is defunct by Picard's time. Ezri Dax's folks run a mining corporation, outside Federation territory.

I am well aware of that although there is no indication the Dytallix mining corporation is now defunct only that they no longer mine Dytallix B.

I
Absolutely, but the reason I bring it up is to show you the Federation is not perfect, and that it doesn't abuse its power. Well, abandoning Federation colonies to the Cardassians, without considering what those colonists might think of the subject, is an example of executive abuse. If a democracy did that the party would be out by next election - if not sooner by riots on the streets. In a one-party communist state, what are the citizenry to do?

Not necessarily, the Federation could easily sell it as the Starfleet brass should it to everybody who would listen (some compromise needed, worth it for peace, these guys are trouble makers), I imagine the people of the core worlds care more for peace than some guys on the border who should just up and move.

The subspace relay system is owned by the Federation government (stated in the DS9 tech manual, I believe),

I have read Wong's essay on the federation you don't have to recite it to me.

and this fact isn't contradicted by canon.

The tech manuals don't count though at all, however since I happen to agree than the feds own he comms grid I will let that slide.

There are examples in canon where communications were blocked out quite easily ("Paradise Lost").

Where exactly? could I have a quote please.

The end-transmission logo is the Federation symbol, which suggests ownership.

No doubt.

Furthermore, no-one knew that Leyton attempted his coup (mainly because we never hear from him again), and there were those plague outbreaks that became restricted information.

Well the thing with Leyton could have easily been swept under the rug (not many people knew about it and those that did were starfleet and could have been ordered to shut up) however there is no proof that it was and finally this has no bearing on what we are talking about (monitoring of communications not freedom of the press).

Also suppressing information on the plague doesn’t imply monitoring of communications only that the Federation can organise a jamming (or voluntary blackout) or simply shut down the comms grid.

Yes, but not of interstate travel with a privately owned car or jet.

And I'm sure the rare Federation citizens who own private spacecraft can also get away with wandering off (although they must file flight plans, something none Federation ships also do) but they are probably few and far between (like owners of private jets these days).

Perhaps not, but he makes some rather telling quotes of his own:

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

No material needs, eh? Still don't think the federation is a communist state?

There are no material needs, all the basic essentials are supplied by the state, this isn't exclusive to communism, most European states hand out enough money for people to survive on.

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

No longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things." No more possessions. Somehow it's infantile to want things.

Peoples behaviour (including Picards) says otherwise, he I saying people don't accumulate wealth for the sake of having it (or flaunting it) not that people don't accumulate items they want for some reasons (art, decorations etc).

RALPH (freshly awakened from centuries of cryofreeze): I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.
BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Why would Crusher say this if cost-for-services-rendered is a common practice in the Federation?[/qute]

You and Mike should realise that doesn't happen in the episode so isn't canon however this again proves nothing, Crusher probably finds it laughable that medical care should cost money most left wingers in the world today agree with her, after it being the status quo for 400 years I'm sure she doesn't understand what he is talking about.

Hmm... maybe because it isn't a common practice, in fact she succinctly states she has no idea what he's talking about, which suggests it is an alien concept to her. Now why would this concept be alien if she's a member of a capitalist/democratic governed nation?

See above.

Oh shit - and that somehow proves the Federation isn't communist? The military transport colonists because they can, and that doesn't prove the Federation is communist? The Federation Starfleet is responsible for transporting colonists, and that doesn't prove the method of transportation isn't run by the government? Jesus, put 2 and 2 together.

It doesn’t, I guess it is possible only the Federation has vessels suited to the task and if they offer them for free how can a company compete? Doesn’t make them communists.

EDIT: I neglected to mention that the quotes and the line about the DS9 tech manual came from Darth Wong's site, the former from his database on ST quotes, the latter from the essay he wrote in regards to this very topic.

So I gathered.

[Uraniun235]

Travelling internally within the Federation is the equivalent of travelling internally within a country.

Oh? What evidence do you have for this? I thought the Federation was comprised of many member nations, and not just a big federal government. There may be legal complications (paperwork, etc.) to visiting another planet in the Alpha Quadrant... and it could be that booking passage with the Federation simplifies or eliminates much of that paperwork.

Travel to various neighbouring states is prohibited (the RSE, for instance, the Cardassian Empire is another)!

So? I thought Americans couldn't travel to Cuba.

Absolutely, but the reason I bring it up is to show you the Federation is not perfect, and that it doesn't abuse its power. Well, abandoning Federation colonies to the Cardassians, without considering what those colonists might think of the subject, is an example of executive abuse. If a democracy did that the party would be out by next election - if not sooner by riots on the streets.

Not when the people on the core worlds outnumber and outinfluence the colonists. "Sacrifice a few colonies so my Starfleet family members are more likely to come back alive? Sure, let's concede some territory, the colonists will just have to find somewhere else to live, it's not like they've put down roots or anything." Hell, if anything, I see this situation as one where democracy could just as easily fail, especially with regard to the low populations of Federation colonies.

Besides, the Federation Council could be comprised in the same manner that the UN is... in which case it depends on the individual planets as to who is sent to the Council. Hell, for all we know, there was political upheaval on several core Federation members as a result of the Cardassian concessions. But if the planetary governments are still convinced it's the right thing despite the objections of the masses (which is something any government should be able to do, because there are times when the majority is wrong in matters of public policy) then they'll continue to make theirs a voice of support in the Federation Council.

[Sothis]

Who actually cares what form of government the Federation is?

We all do, that's the purpose of these type of debates

Half (in fact the majority) of the time we only ever see things from Starfleet's perspective anyway, on a ship that's never at a Fed world long enough to build a complete picture of the government anyway. The important things are: Do they live in poverty?

Yes. Well, actually no. There are some colonies that once hailed from Earth, and their citizen even managed to enroll in Starfleet. But once their world went down the shitter, they were severed from all relations with the Federation. Some claim that this colony doesn't count for Federation poverty to the hooked-on-phonics crowd, because it was never spelled out in front of them.

In that Mosiac novel. Wasn't there a quote between the standard of living of Earth's compared to some off-beat planet?

Is disease rampent?

Entire colonies can fall under a plague, and Starfleet can classify any knowledge of the event. I'd like to a government that doesn't have complete control of communications and news media do that. Plus, quite a few episode used the deadly virus plot. Certainly dispels the loftly claim that the Federation eliminated poverty, as many characters believe.

What's the medcare and education like?

These are areas that are hard to judge. The only medcare and education we've seen take place onboard military starships. I'd imagine that medicare is easy to access to the general public. The only education we see is onbaord starships, military academies, and words of rehabitations camps for criminals and POWs.

Are there enough jobs? What is the quality of life?

Again hard to say.

Oh I hate quote tags... so I will place my response in it's entirety at the bottom

Point one: You say that there are worlds that once they 'went down the shitter', the Federation cut ties with them. Examples? Episodes?

Point two: You say the entire worlds can fall under plagues and that Starfleet can classify knowledge of it. Again, examples, episodes?

Point three: In ST: First Contact, Geordi makes reference to attending High School, so we know there IS schooling for kids, we just don't know the quality of it.

[Rhoades]

Your view on the truth is worthy of a politician, Quark came to her and was already in neutral territory, what is of relevance is that there are members of Federation races in the audience bidding.

Okay, I want absolute proof that the members of the auction were Federation members. Just because they resembled Federation races, should prove nothing in your eyes since Tasha Yar is still technically a "Federation race", right? However since that was never spelled out.

Are you saying that just because anyone who's a human or vulcan or a Federation race and thus a Federation citizen. What would that Tasha Yar, and the rest of her colonist?

Well now, what's this? Turkana IV, an Earth Colony? And look - it severed relations 15 years ago, that must mean they had relations in the first place. What I said earlier about Tasha Yar looking homeless and on the run from rapegangs still stands. The Federation isn't perfect - the fact that a former colony could be allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair speaks well of this fact.

Allow me to point out the obvious, relations does not imply they were a part of the Federation.

As for Earth colony - that again proves nothing and the only other record of the term (TNG+) Earth Colony was in reference to a non federation world.

No shit. The term relations could mean anything given it's context. The context on Turkana IV fits that it was once a Federation world. It's a colony from a Federation world. The nature of the Federation is that other worlds joins. We have a colonist from Turkana IV who joined Starfleet, and no special recommedations from upper-Starfleet brass that Nog needed (plus how would she get them if she was a runaway colonist).

If what you claim is true, then I find it disturbing that the enlightened Federation would allow their fellow earthlings to fall into dispear. The Prime Directive should not apply. And clearly they should know what's going on since they have Tasha Yar. Not much of a humanist to let your fellow species fall into the pits. Maybe Darkling is right, Turkana IV might not be a Federation would. This is fits into the 'they are not 'Federation' so fuck them' that we seen the Maquis under Cardassian occupation, and the Baku who are not Federation members, but their planet falls under their territory and thus Federation 'property'.

I could live in luxury and still not have my own private plane but prehaps we differ on what is considered luxury.

What about needs. This is a case where a private starship would make a nice need. Shuttles must be cheap if Voyager have an unlimited supply.

Not necessarily, the Federation could easily sell it as the Starfleet brass should it to everybody who would listen (some compromise needed, worth it for peace, these guys are trouble makers), I imagine the people of the core worlds care more for peace than some guys on the border who should just up and move.

Because it's not them who have to move. Principal is in short supply in the Federation. Ofcourse, one has to wonder what the public opinion of the Federation arresting Maquis, who are now Cardassian citizens is.

There are examples in canon where communications were blocked out quite easily ("Paradise Lost").

Where exactly? could I have a quote please.

I can't quote 'Paradise Lost', however in an S1 episode of DS9 with some alien cloud that inspired mutany on the station, Odo tried to contact Starfleet and Bajor but to no success since Kira and O'Brien blocked the channels to each place respectfully. Wow, no one on the station could not call home because of a power struggle between two officers.

Well the thing with Leyton could have easily been swept under the rug (not many people knew about it and those that did were starfleet and could have been ordered to shut up) however there is no proof that it was and finally this has no bearing on what we are talking about (monitoring of communications not freedom of the press).

Wow, you mean a coup on Earth, Military personal suddenly taking blood samples of everyone, and a planet wide black out can easily be sweep under the rug. The populas never wonder why martial law had ever been declared?

Also suppressing information on the plague doesn’t imply monitoring of communications only that the Federation can organise a jamming (or voluntary blackout) or simply shut down the comms grid.

And that's better than monitoring communications, how? That implies when people get sick, they cut off the phone. And, nobody who would have former contact with the colony, such as family members or anyone who conducted business (if such practices are conducted in the federation), would not have any means of getting touch with the colonist. And, if that happened then the free press might had a few stories published on the lost contact. Yet, Starfleet classified all of this. Just imagine if this happened in any major city.

[Rhoades]

Oh I hate quote tags... so I will place my response in it's entirety at the bottom

Point one: You say that there are worlds that once they 'went down the shitter', the Federation cut ties with them. Examples? Episodes?

Point two: You say the entire worlds can fall under plagues and that Starfleet can classify knowledge of it. Again, examples, episodes?

Point three: In ST: First Contact, Geordi makes reference to attending High School, so we know there IS schooling for kids, we just don't know the quality of it.

Point One: "Legacy", the colony Tasha Yar hails from. It's being discussed in this tread. Some people disagree that it once was a Federation, because it is not spelled out, and the only alsolute sources which confirms it come from non-cannon sources.

Point Two: "Alligence" Picard was trapped with a bunch of other aliens, for some reason (study I guess). One of them might be the one resonisble. Picards tested this one ensign by mentioning the colony, who replies with the plague (something, according to him, no ensign would know about).

Point Three: Good point. The best example we have on schooling was Keiko's classroom in DS9. I wonder why the Federation did not help set up a school for the children on DS9.

[TheDarkling]

Okay, I want absolute proof that the members of the auction were Federation members. Just because they resembled Federation races, should prove nothing in your eyes since Tasha Yar is still technically a "Federation race", right? However since that was never spelled out.

I said they were members of Federation races not that they themselves citizens, however we have no way of knowing for sure.
The same is ture of the auction of "In the Cards" but again they could all just be non federation citizens, I see no reason to assume so though.

No shit. The term relations could mean anything given it's context. The context on Turkana IV fits that it was once a Federation world. It's a colony from a Federation world. The nature of the Federation is that other worlds joins. We have a colonist from Turkana IV who joined Starfleet, and no special recommedations from upper-Starfleet brass that Nog needed (plus how would she get them if she was a runaway colonist).

Given that Yar was on the planet after they left the Federation should wouldn't be a federation citizen in either event, she must have got authorisation from somebody (could be a clearing system, there seem to be a few Bajorans in Starfleet and they would all need authorisation).

If what you claim is true, then I find it disturbing that the enlightened Federation would allow their fellow earthlings to fall into dispear. The Prime Directive should not apply. And clearly they should know what's going on since they have Tasha Yar. Not much of a humanist to let your fellow species fall into the pits. Maybe Darkling is right, Turkana IV might not be a Federation would. This is fits into the 'they are not 'Federation' so fuck them' that we seen the Maquis under Cardassian occupation, and the Baku who are not Federation members, but their planet falls under their territory and thus Federation 'property'.

You are surprised that the Federation would stay out of somebody else’s business if asked to? I'm not they have always show a desire to not get involved in issues even when they directly concern them.

What about needs. This is a case where a private starship would make a nice need. Shuttles must be cheap if Voyager have an unlimited supply.

And how useful is some warp 2 or so shuttle? It would take months to get anywhere in one.

Because it's not them who have to move. Principal is in short supply in the Federation. Ofcourse, one has to wonder what the public opinion of the Federation arresting Maquis, who are now Cardassian citizens is.

They are terrorists opperating within Federation space, the Federation has a responsibility to arrest them (and the fact that they then don't extradite to cardassia is a good thing considering Cardassian justcie).

I can't quote 'Paradise Lost', however in an S1 episode of DS9 with some alien cloud that inspired mutany on the station, Odo tried to contact Starfleet and Bajor but to no success since Kira and O'Brien blocked the channels to each place respectfully. Wow, no one on the station could not call home because of a power struggle between two officers.

Good lord a military station has a way to cut communications? What does that prove exactly? Babylon 5 could also cut communications does this mean that Earth Gov are also raging commies?

Wow, you mean a coup on Earth, Military personal suddenly taking blood samples of everyone, and a planet wide black out can easily be sweep under the rug. The populas never wonder why martial law had ever been declared?

Who said the black out or the blood screening was swept under the rug? And the coup never even got to the "attempted” stage, of course this all relies upon the fact that the coup was withheld from the public which we have no proof of.

And that's better than monitoring communications, how? That implies when people get sick, they cut off the phone.

And yet they haven't cut off the phone on DS9 just because people got sick and we have no other instance of a plague being classified, exactly why the Feds classified the plague remains a mystery and there is enough evidence to assume it is not common policy.

And, nobody who would have former contact with the colony, such as family members or anyone who conducted business (if such practices are conducted in the federation), would not have any means of getting touch with the colonist. And, if that happened then the free press might had a few stories published on the lost contact. Yet, Starfleet classified all of this. Just imagine if this happened in any major city.

Well that all depends upon the size of the colony doesn't it and whether it is a Federation world at all, how long the plague lasted for and so on.

I do agree that it seems odd to classify information about a plague outbreak but keeping that knowledge secret for a short time doesn't strike me as that hard a task (especially if this world is out of the way, which given that it can sometimes take the Enterprise days /weeks to reach colonies that have gone silent wouldn't surprise me)

[Stofsk]

Darkling, kindly provide references to the following:

Examples of private ownership of Subspace Communications? In particular I want to see a communique that doesn't end with the Federation logo.

Examples of private ownership of Transportation? In particular I want to see colony ships, and why they can't be chartered instead of taking away a Galaxy class capital ship from it's patrol routes. And I'd like to know how it's "free" to travel this way?

Examples of private ownership of publications - such as a news service? I don't want to see the Starfleet News Service that Jake was writing too when DS9 was occupied. I want to see something else.

Examples of corporations that privately own utilities, production facilities and shipbuilding? (the Dytalix B mining corp I believe is defunct due to the abandoned mine, but I know what you're going to say. Find me another corporation)

I don't want to hear your bullshit rationalisation about Replicators, and how the raw materials come from magic land. I want to know where they get the materials, and who provides them. A corporation name would be nice.

Show me some examples of investment, the mark of a capitalist society.

The Picard Vineyard: Prove it's a business that's in it for profit.

Show me the elections for Federation Presidency, and the characters voting for the candidate of their choice.

You assert that 'most European states' own services. This is true. It is also true that many of these European states were under communist rule, and they've spent the last 10 years growing out from that. Surprise, these countries are still socialist.

You don't like the theory that the Federation is communist? Well, where's your counter theory? What is the Federation then? There aren't any private corporations, so who provides the production and utilities? There aren't any private subspace communications, so who provides them? There aren't any private transportation firms, to who provides large scale transport?

[TheDarkling]

Darkling, kindly provide references to the following:

You have yet to provide evidence for your claims but ok.

Examples of private ownership of Subspace Communications? In particular I want to see a communique that doesn't end with the Federation logo.

I don't think any exists, the Federation does likely own the entire subspace comms network although the logo doesn't really prove anything (the Ferengi comms grid shows the Ferengi symbol as does the Dominion's and these are capitalist nations, so it would seem that this nation printing is standard or that comms grids aren't viable for private enterprise to run/construct).

Examples of private ownership of Transportation? In particular I want to see colony ships, and why they can't be chartered instead of taking away a Galaxy class capital ship from it's patrol routes. And I'd like to know how it's "free" to travel this way?

Because the Federation probably doesn't charge (colonisation being in their interests) as for private ownership of transportation, We have Yates, Soong, Fajo et al, you protestations that they aren't valid doesn't actually mean they aren't.

Examples of private ownership of publications - such as a news service? I don't want to see the Starfleet News Service that Jake was writing too when DS9 was occupied. I want to see something else.

It was the Federation news service and the last evidence I can think of was the Enterprise B launch (but I am sure you will say that was before the revolution).

Examples of corporations that privately own utilities, production facilities and shipbuilding? (the Dytalix B mining corp I believe is defunct due to the abandoned mine, but I know what you're going to say. Find me another corporation)

I have already provided one however another is that one of the ship plaques contains the name of the manufacturer (something propulsion systems) but I am sure you won't accept that either.

I don't want to hear your bullshit rationalisation about Replicators, and how the raw materials come from magic land. I want to know where they get the materials, and who provides them. A corporation name would be nice.

No you have to prove they need then, you have failed to do so despite me asking several times.

Show me some examples of investment, the mark of a capitalist society.

We have no reason to assume it doesn't occur, I can think of only one example in SG1 does that make the USA communist, to spell it out for you this is a TV show about the (pseudo) military, investment banking rarely comes up.

Now you obviously couldn't rise t my asking for evidence of Picard’s befuddlement at investment but don't wish to admit it, nice try but also rather dishonest.

The Picard Vineyard: Prove it's a business that's in it for profit.

Prove otherwise since you suppose it isn’t.

Show me the elections for Federation Presidency, and the characters voting for the candidate of their choice.

I don't recall that from TOS pre the supposed revolution, again you must keep in mind the focus of the show.

You assert that 'most European states' own services. This is true. It is also true that many of these European states were under communist rule, and they've spent the last 10 years growing out from that. Surprise, these countries are still socialist.

Western European nations do as well (and did further still in recent history, would you have us believe Britain has been communist at some point?)

You don't like the theory that the Federation is communist? Well, where's your counter theory? What is the Federation then? There aren't any private corporations, so who provides the production and utilities? There aren't any private subspace communications, so who provides them? There aren't any private transportation firms, to who provides large scale transport?

I don't agree with your assertions therefore the question is invalid (from my point of view).

[Stofsk]

Darkling, kindly provide references to the following:

You have yet to provide evidence for your claims but ok.

Bullshit. I provided quotes and episode references; you don't think the shooting script is canon? Too bad. In contrast all you say is: "This happened, but I can't give you an episode name."

I don't think any exists, the Federation does likely own the entire subspace comms network although the logo doesn't really prove anything

It proves that the Federation owns it. In other words, the modes of communication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

(the Ferengi comms grid shows the Ferengi symbol as does the Dominion's and these are capitalist nations, so it would seem that this nation printing is standard or that comms grids aren't viable for private enterprise to run/construct).

Except that the Ferengi are clearly capitalist, in fact they're rather proud of that fact, while the Federation doesn't promote "material needs." Furthermore, the Ferengi comm-network could also be governed by a monopolistic corporation; so it doesn't disprove me at all. The Dominion example is dubious anyway, can you tell me where we see Dominion communications being accessed? Can you show me the Dominion symbol?

Because the Federation probably doesn't charge (colonisation being in their interests) as for private ownership of transportation, We have Yates, Soong, Fajo et al, you protestations that they aren't valid doesn't actually mean they aren't.

The Federation doesn't charge for the transportation, yet it still costs some resources to do it (fuel for the engines, food and supplies for the colonists etc). So who pays the cost? The Federation. In other words, the modes of transportation are owned by the State. Concession accepted.

BTW Yates did her business outside Federation territory, Kahn is exempt, while Fajo is a crook. There are reasons I don't consider them valid examples.

It was the Federation news service and the last evidence I can think of was the Enterprise B launch (but I am sure you will say that was before the revolution).

We're talking about TNG, so stop changing the topic. Since TOS is comfortably capitalistic your point in parentheses is moot.

So the Federation news service is the only example, eh? That would mean the modes of publication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

I have already provided one however another is that one of the ship plaques contains the name of the manufacturer (something propulsion systems) but I am sure you won't accept that either.

Right, so now you must prove they're privately owned. There were corporations in the Soviet Union (MiG).

No you have to prove they need then, you have failed to do so despite me asking several times.

Eeent! Wrong. I suggest the rational approach that the replicators a) have limits and b) need raw material to replicate from. You, on the other hand, advocate the irrational approach of No-Limits towards the replicators - they can fashion everything, according to you, from dinner, shaving cream, a trombone etc. Sorry, but there are things that can't be replicated. (canon examples - such as alcholic rainwater "The Schizoid Man," a vaccine "Code of Honour," a type of blood "The Enemy" etc)

We have no reason to assume it doesn't occur, I can think of only one example in SG1 does that make the USA communist, to spell it out for you this is a TV show about the (pseudo) military, investment banking rarely comes up.

We're talking ST here, not SG-1. I said before that if we don't see it onscreen, we have no reason to believe it exists. This doesn't apply to toilets, as we do see part of a fresher suite in some character's quarters - Picard in FC, Chakotay and Harry Kim on Voyager. But funnily enough we don't see examples of investment or a stock market. Ever. So why assume they have it?

Now you obviously couldn't rise t my asking for evidence of Picard?s befuddlement at investment but don't wish to admit it, nice try but also rather dishonest.

Get fucked. If you'll bother to reread my listing of quotes that I provided:

Perhaps not, but he makes some rather telling quotes of his own:

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist.

No material needs, eh? Still don't think the federation is a communist state?

As you can see, I already conceded that point about Picard being befuddled by investment. So what did I do? Provided another quote, to which your reply was:

There are no material needs, all the basic essentials are supplied by the state, this isn't exclusive to communism, most European states hand out enough money for people to survive on.

Wow, all the basic essentials are provided by the State, hmm? You turn around and say this isn't exclusive to communism, except that it is; you then cite European social security as a refutation of my position, when it isn't - social security is different from state-run and state-owned utilities, production, communication, transportation etc. Let's take a look at the other quotes, shall we?

PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

No longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things." No more possessions. Somehow it's infantile to want things.

Peoples behaviour (including Picards) says otherwise, he I saying people don't accumulate wealth for the sake of having it (or flaunting it) not that people don't accumulate items they want for some reasons (art, decorations etc).

Of course, that's human nature and the principle failing of communism. Picard has possessions, and newsflash - the people living under Soviet rule also had possessions. They couldn't own property, however. They couldn't invest in said property, however. And they could do nothing with their possessions, because no one would buy them. They weren't worth anything, to anyone. The key point I was making in analysing Picard's statement is he considers it infantile to want possessions, and that is an ideological position. Capitalism doesn't consider the desire for possessions infantile, nor their acquisition.

RALPH (freshly awakened from centuries of cryofreeze): I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.
BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Why would Crusher say this if cost-for-services-rendered is a common practice in the Federation?

You and Mike should realise that doesn't happen in the episode so isn't canon however this again proves nothing, Crusher probably finds it laughable that medical care should cost money most left wingers in the world today agree with her, after it being the status quo for 400 years I'm sure she doesn't understand what he is talking about.

I got it from Mike's canon database, and in it he says it comes from the shooting script. It's still canon, if it is written by the guy who's on the screen credits.

In any case, the statement I highlighted in bold speaks for itself (in case you don't know on which side of the political spectrum one finds communism, it's to the left - next to socialism, so either way, I win), while it does nothing to refute my position.

Prove otherwise since you suppose it isn?t.

I don't have to since we never see it run as a business. And that was my claim. Your claim was otherwise, therefore back it up.

I don't recall that from TOS pre the supposed revolution, again you must keep in mind the focus of the show.

Again, you must keep in mind we're talking about TNG. Not TOS, which has already been established as capitalist.

Western European nations do as well (and did further still in recent history, would you have us believe Britain has been communist at some point?)

To the first point, Western European nations combine the concept of privatisation with state-owned and run services. To the second point, I never mentioned Britain's history so I can only assume it's a red herring.

I don't agree with your assertions therefore the question is invalid (from my point of view).

Poor baby.

[TheDarkling]

Bullshit. I provided quotes and episode references; you don't think the shooting script is canon? Too bad.

Indeed it is too bad for you, it isn't canon however since you only (or I should say Mike) had a problem with that in one area it doesn't seem like big issue.

In contrast all you say is: "This happened, but I can't give you an episode name."

Rubbish.

It proves that the Federation owns it. In other words, the modes of communication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

I never contested it, I asked you to prove the Federation monitors all communicaions, something you have yet to do.

Except that the Ferengi are clearly capitalist, in fact they're rather proud of that fact, while the Federation doesn't promote "material needs." Furthermore, the Ferengi comm-network could also be governed by a monopolistic corporation; so it doesn't disprove me at all. The Dominion example is dubious anyway, can you tell me where we see Dominion communications being accessed? Can you show me the Dominion symbol?

The Dominion symbol is constantly seen on the show (you have seen DS9 right) and it appears after Weyoun or some such speaks on more than on occasion but if you don't like that example what about the Klingons? Their comms do the same.

The Federation doesn't charge for the transportation, yet it still costs some resources to do it (fuel for the engines, food and supplies for the colonists etc). So who pays the cost? The Federation. In other words, the modes of transportation are owned by the State. Concession accepted.

Not all modes of transportation (which was the issue at hand) in fact we don't know who runs the transports, we do know it is civilian and not Starfleet but beyond that it is unknown (its possible it does cost money I just assume with the high level of social services it doesn't).

BTW Yates did her business outside Federation territory,

*Yawn* Yet she never expressed any concern about the Federation taking over the Bajoran system.

Kahn is exempt,

Dr Soong Datas creator not the genetic superman from 1996.

while Fajo is a crook.

It isn't obvious at first that he is a crook so his owning a ship is in no way related to his criminal activities.

There are reasons I don't consider them valid examples.

Yes because they are incontinent.

How about in "Little Green Men" Quark and Rom buy passage from Earth (and also sell there ship to scap yard in the Sol system), obviously somebody is seeling transportation (and buying ships) in the Sol system.

We're talking about TNG, so stop changing the topic. Since TOS is comfortably capitalistic your point in parentheses is moot.

I wasn’t changing the subject at all, I made it perfectly clear what I was saying and I qualified it (and the Ent-B 's launch is rather late in the Day for TOS, taking place only 10 years before Picard’s birth - I am just trying to narrow down when the revolution takes place).

So the Federation news service is the only example, eh? That would mean the modes of publication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

The federation news service isn't the only method of publication it simply seems to be the main news source, people can still write books and make holosuite programs.

Right, so now you must prove they're privately owned. There were corporations in the Soviet Union (MiG).

I need not do any such thing, you continue to put the onus on me to disprove your assertions because you know you can't possibly do so in most cases.

Eeent! Wrong. I suggest the rational approach that the replicators a) have limits and b) need raw material to replicate from. You, on the other hand, advocate the irrational approach of No-Limits towards the replicators - they can fashion everything, according to you, from dinner, shaving cream, a trombone etc.

I did not engage in a No-Limits fallacy I said only that the replicators can make most house hold items that a person could want, you have theorised that they need materials and can't produce everything (I don't contest the second issue) you however have not provided canon evidence to prove these claims and you continue to dodge even now, I ask for evidence and you give speculation without anything in the can to back it up.

I want Canon proof that replicators need raw materials - you had a huge long list for me yet it seems you can't even fill this one request.

Sorry, but there are things that can't be replicated. (canon examples - such as alcholic rainwater "The Schizoid Man," a vaccine "Code of Honour," a type of blood "The Enemy" etc)

And this would effect the average person how? I said a replicator could provide a person with their everyday needs and since that is exactly what it does on the show I feel fairly happy in that conclusion.

I would also like a quote on this alcoholic rainwater - I can find no mention of it and it sounds interesting.

We're talking ST here, not SG-1. I said before that if we don't see it onscreen, we have no reason to believe it exists.

And I am showing the level of idiocy inherent in that way of analysing the show, given the focus of the show we only see things form a narrow point of view and most of the times when we break out of it we see the sort of things you ask for (DS9 shops, freighters etc , Earth having the farms, shops cafes and so on) but because we don't see them that often (because of the restricted view we have form the show) you try to pull a fast one and claim they are exceptions.

This doesn't apply to toilets, as we do see part of a fresher suite in some character's quarters - Picard in FC, Chakotay and Harry Kim on Voyager. But funnily enough we don't see examples of investment or a stock market. Ever. So why assume they have it?

We haven't seen a Romulan stock market, or a Klingon one or a Dominion and so on are al these nations communist (although the lack of a stock market doesn't prove they are communist since capitalism existed before stock markets, simply with more primitive investment) or is it because we don't happen to have seen that side of them?
We see now hint of investment or a stock market during Enterprise yet that is pre TOS meaning it must be pre the Red Menace seizing power.

Get fucked. If you'll bother to reread my listing of quotes that I provided:[/qote]

I read them, they prove nothing, I rebutted them all and you didn't counter, I take that to mean you aren't capable of doing so adequately (not that that fact has prevented you thus far) and have instead dodged but let us take a look at what you have come up with shall we.

Wow, all the basic essentials are provided by the State, hmm? You turn around and say this isn't exclusive to communism, except that it is; you then cite European social security as a refutation of my position, when it isn't - social security is different from state-run and state-owned utilities, production, communication, transportation etc. Let's take a look at the other quotes, shall we?

Europe nations used to have nationalised communications, state owned news outlets, state owned gas, state owned power, state owned munitions production, state owned defence production, state owned transportation, state owned road networks and so on, yet Britain wasn’t communist when we had these things.

Of course, that's human nature and the principle failing of communism. Picard has possessions, and newsflash - the people living under Soviet rule also had possessions. They couldn't own property, however.

Sisko does own property though, on Bajor (and as I have pointed out he expected to own it when Bajor was a Federation world), owning property is obviously possible.

They couldn't invest in said property, however. And they could do nothing with their possessions, because no one would buy them. They weren't worth anything, to anyone. The key point I was making in analysing Picard's statement is he considers it infantile to want possessions, and that is an ideological position. Capitalism doesn't consider the desire for possessions infantile, nor their acquisition.

I consider greed and the accumulation of wealth for its own sake to be infantile however I am not a communist, Picard says nothing more than that, he doesn't say personal ownership is infantile simply amassing wealth at all costs is wrong (and there are Federation citizens who disagree with him, remember Picard is a paragon of virtue (by fed standards) and he considers many things infantile and beneath him).

I got it from Mike's canon database, and in it he says it comes from the shooting script. It's still canon, if it is written by the guy who's on the screen credits.

That isn't Paramount’s policy I am afraid.

In any case, the statement I highlighted in bold speaks for itself (in case you don't know on which side of the political spectrum one finds communism, it's to the left - next to socialism, so either way, I win), while it does nothing to refute my position.

So either way you win??? Proving the Federation is left leaning is not the same as proving it is communist (unless you are one of those people who thinks Western Europe and Canada are strong holds of crazy Pinko Commies in which case you extremism doesn't interest me).

I don't have to since we never see it run as a business. And that was my claim. Your claim was otherwise, therefore back it up.

It seemed like business to me, just as much as any farm I might come across and spend 30 minutes watching.

Again, you must keep in mind we're talking about TNG. Not TOS, which has already been established as capitalist.

Which was my point, since we don't see something n both TNG and TOS its absence doesn’t prove anything (because if it did it would say the same about both time periods).

To the first point, Western European nations combine the concept of privatisation with state-owned and run services. To the second point, I never mentioned Britain's history so I can only assume it's a red herring.

Britain once had many of the things state owned that the Federation does, my point was that these utilities being state owned proves nothing.

Poor baby.

[Sothis]

Oh I hate quote tags... so I will place my response in it's entirety at the bottom

Point one: You say that there are worlds that once they 'went down the shitter', the Federation cut ties with them. Examples? Episodes?

Point two: You say the entire worlds can fall under plagues and that Starfleet can classify knowledge of it. Again, examples, episodes?

Point three: In ST: First Contact, Geordi makes reference to attending High School, so we know there IS schooling for kids, we just don't know the quality of it.

Point One: "Legacy", the colony Tasha Yar hails from. It's being discussed in this tread. Some people disagree that it once was a Federation, because it is not spelled out, and the only alsolute sources which confirms it come from non-cannon sources.

Point Two: "Alligence" Picard was trapped with a bunch of other aliens, for some reason (study I guess). One of them might be the one resonisble. Picards tested this one ensign by mentioning the colony, who replies with the plague (something, according to him, no ensign would know about).

Point Three: Good point. The best example we have on schooling was Keiko's classroom in DS9. I wonder why the Federation did not help set up a school for the children on DS9.

Point One: So without confirmation, it is equally possible that Tasha's world of birth cut it's ties with the Federation, then spiralled out of control.

Point Two: 'Alligence' does not show that because one Federation world was struck down by disease, there is therefore a problem of this nature occuring often, or even semi-regularly. People could point to Tantoine and claim that it represents a typical Imperial world, but we know of worlds like Coruscant. I do grant that the Federation covered up the incident, but both capitalist and communist governments alike will cover up or withhold information for their own interests, so that alone does not make the Federation a communist regime in the Stalinist 'kill all who disagree' sense.

Point Three: DS9 was a Bajoran station, and maybe they didn't want Federation-style schools? I'll have to fish for the episode, but I'm sure there was one where Keiko was teaching about the wormhole, and it triggered an argument over why she wasn't calling it the Celestial Temple.

[Uraniun235]

Point One: "Legacy", the colony Tasha Yar hails from. It's being discussed in this tread. Some people disagree that it once was a Federation, because it is not spelled out, and the only alsolute sources which confirms it come from non-cannon sources.

And I'll say again, the Federation did not cut those ties, it was Turkana IV who said anyone who landed on that planet could expect to die.

they can fashion everything, according to you, from dinner, shaving cream, a trombone etc.

They CAN fashion a violin, this much is known.

[Stofsk]

Bullshit. I provided quotes and episode references; you don't think the shooting script is canon? Too bad.

Indeed it is too bad for you, it isn't canon however since you only (or I should say Mike) had a problem with that in one area it doesn't seem like big issue.

You were the one making it into a big issue, as you were the only claiming I didn't provide canon evidence (and you also accused me of being dishonest). So go get fucked, I've provided canon evidence, you have not.

In contrast all you say is: "This happened, but I can't give you an episode name."

Rubbish.

Quotes? Episode names? References? I count one quote, and it had little relevance to the discussion - Rhoades shot it down quite easily.

It proves that the Federation owns it. In other words, the modes of communication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

I never contested it, I asked you to prove the Federation monitors all communicaions, something you have yet to do.

Episode: "Aquiel" Season 6, Subspace Relay Station 47, Lieutenants Keith Rocha and Aquiel Uhnari are stationed there to keep the station in working order. Two starfleet officers. Handling subspace communications. So, now the Federation owns the modes of communication, AND station military personnel to conduct maintenance. Quite telling, no?

Except that the Ferengi are clearly capitalist, in fact they're rather proud of that fact, while the Federation doesn't promote "material needs." Furthermore, the Ferengi comm-network could also be governed by a monopolistic corporation; so it doesn't disprove me at all. The Dominion example is dubious anyway, can you tell me where we see Dominion communications being accessed? Can you show me the Dominion symbol?

The Dominion symbol is constantly seen on the show (you have seen DS9 right) and it appears after Weyoun or some such speaks on more than on occasion but if you don't like that example what about the Klingons? Their comms do the same.

Yeah I've seen DS9, I just can't recall the Dominion symbol - I didn't even know they had a symbol.

The Klingons are feudalistic - and a military dictatorship. The Cardassians are fascists - another military dictatorship. The Ferengi are capitalists, and it's entirely possible a monopolistic agency holds command over their communications services. I never said any of these were communist. I provide a satisfactory reason why the Ferengi symbol appears as their end-transmission logo, the Klingons and Cardassians are both run by their respective militaries - who demonstrate control over their populace. It is not a huge stretch to conclude this control extends to communications.

The Federation doesn't charge for the transportation, yet it still costs some resources to do it (fuel for the engines, food and supplies for the colonists etc). So who pays the cost? The Federation. In other words, the modes of transportation are owned by the State. Concession accepted.

Not all modes of transportation (which was the issue at hand) in fact we don't know who runs the transports, we do know it is civilian and not Starfleet but beyond that it is unknown (its possible it does cost money I just assume with the high level of social services it doesn't).

Contradicted by canon - unless you wish to offer proof to back that claim up? And if it is private, why is a Federation Battleship being used to ferry colonists to their destination if private transportation services are available (the Enterprise ferried the Bringoldi human colonists to the Mariposa colony "Up the Long Ladder")? Why can't colonists evacuate their world in case of attack by malignant entities (11'000 colonists on Rana 4 were wiped out because no-one had an interstellar spacecraft "Survivors")? Why is a Federation Battleship being used to carry cargo to colonies that need it if private freight companies exist (various instances where a colony was desperate for a vaccine or drug, or needed medical supplies, and only the Enterprise could be used - "Code of Honour," "The Child," "The High Ground" respectively)? In all of those instances a private freighter or transport could have served just as well as the Enterprise, yet we don't see any being used.

BTW Yates did her business outside Federation territory,

*Yawn* Yet she never expressed any concern about the Federation taking over the Bajoran system.

Irrelevant, as she was working outside of Federation territory before Bajor was admitted into the Federation (presuming this event actually does occur), so your point proves nothing. She could just pack her bags and move on. Oh wait, she was arrested for working with the Maquis, and doesn't own a freighter anymore - or work, at all, becoming nothing more than Sisko's wife. Funny about that.

Kahn is exempt,

Dr Soong Datas creator not the genetic superman from 1996.

An honest mistake. Yet I want proof it was his ship, owned by him. (Scotty owns his own shuttle, but he didn't buy it - Picard "lent" it to him)

while Fajo is a crook.

It isn't obvious at first that he is a crook so his owning a ship is in no way related to his criminal activities.

It was quite common in the Soviet Union to go to the black market for things you couldn't get. Fajo is a crook. Fajo is rich and has the supply the Federation demand needs. Fajo isn't a corporation nor a business (legitimate one, anyway) - he's a guy, who Picard goes to get the shit a Federation colony needs.

There are reasons I don't consider them valid examples.

Yes because they are incontinent.

How about in "Little Green Men" Quark and Rom buy passage from Earth (and also sell there ship to scap yard in the Sol system), obviously somebody is selling transportation (and buying ships) in the Sol system.

How the fuck are my examples "incontinent" (unless you mean the word "inconsistent" in which case you are still wrong, just not humourously)? Further, answer your own question: who is providing transportation in the Federation?

As for your example, let's analyse it:

QUARK:...now I have nothing, I don't even have my ship anymore.
ROM: Look on the bright side, brother: you may have had to sell your shuttle for salvage, but at least you got enough for our passage home."

Quark's shuttle was carrying contraband too, a fact which Odo charges him for at the end of the episode. For some reason, no-one could repair Quark's ship so he was forced to sell it for salvage (possibly as punishment for carrying contraband in the first place). Lastly, the shuttle - which was worth a lot to Quark - can only be redeemed for 2 one-way tickets out of the Federation.

1) This means that transportation is hideously expensive in the Federation (and easily come by outside the Federation, as Quark - a private citizen - had his own ship given to him by his cousin - a private citizen).

2) Your example doesn't show private transportation is provided in the Federation, it just shows that to get anywhere you have to book passage. Those who have their own private transport (Quark) are at a disadvantage, as Quark couldn't repair his ship for some reason.

3) Quark sold his ship for salvage which suggests it was a material trade, not a ship trade. For some reason it couldn't be repaired, which leads me to believe Quark had no choice but to sell it. The possibility remains that this was a form of punishment exacted onto Quark for carrying contraband in the first place.

We're talking about TNG, so stop changing the topic. Since TOS is comfortably capitalistic your point in parentheses is moot.

I wasn't changing the subject at all, I made it perfectly clear what I was saying and I qualified it (and the Ent-B 's launch is rather late in the Day for TOS, taking place only 10 years before Picard's birth - I am just trying to narrow down when the revolution takes place).

Flat out lie. There were multiple reporters there, and that doesn't make much sense if there was only one news service, so in effect mentioning it has nothing to do with ST: TNG. Therefore, it was changing the subject.

As for your quote in parentheses, the date of the revolution isn't known, but it is assumed to have occurred sometime after TOS.

So the Federation news service is the only example, eh? That would mean the modes of publication are owned by the state. Concession accepted.

The federation news service isn't the only method of publication it simply seems to be the main news source, people can still write books and make holosuite programs.

There were publishing houses in the Soviet Union, too. The salient point I was addressing was that the News Services in the Federation are owned and run by the Federation. And there appears to be only one such News service, as well - giving a clear monopoly of information to the government.

Right, so now you must prove they're privately owned. There were corporations in the Soviet Union (MiG).

I need not do any such thing, you continue to put the onus on me to disprove your assertions because you know you can't possibly do so in most cases.

Bullshit. Personal property isn't abolished under communism, only the investment of capital in said property, which Marx found to be "exploitation." Picard's vineyard, Sisko's restaurant etc do not disprove the communist underpinnings of the Federation. Since we see no example of private investment in their property why assume they can? The onus is on you to prove they can.

Incidentally, Publius near the bottom of page 2 of this thread already pointed this out. I'll quote him for you (assuming he doesn't mind):

As Messrs. Marx and Engels quite literally said that small businesses need not be abolished for the accomplishment of the Communist state, the existence of such businesses cannot be taken as evidence against the practice of Marxism-Leninism in the United Federation of Planets. Indeed, Messrs. Marx and Engels stated rather unambiguously that it is not property altogether that they desired to abolish, but rather "bourgeois private property", i.e., capitalism. Ownership of land is hardly indicative of the investment of capital.

Eeent! Wrong. I suggest the rational approach that the replicators a) have limits and b) need raw material to replicate from. You, on the other hand, advocate the irrational approach of No-Limits towards the replicators - they can fashion everything, according to you, from dinner, shaving cream, a trombone etc.

I did not engage in a No-Limits fallacy I said only that the replicators can make most house hold items that a person could want, you have theorised that they need materials and can't produce everything (I don't contest the second issue) you however have not provided canon evidence to prove these claims and you continue to dodge even now, I ask for evidence and you give speculation without anything in the can to back it up.

I want Canon proof that replicators need raw materials - you had a huge long list for me yet it seems you can't even fill this one request.

Dumbass the fact they can't replicate everything proves they need raw materials to replicate from. If they could replicate everything they wouldn't need raw materials - they'd just use energy (making replicators sillier than they already are). There are items they cannot replicate, due to the unique properties of the material in question. Why assume they don't need raw materials for things they can replicate? Is this shit supposed to come out of handwaving? Magic fairy dust? Furthermore, once you accept the fact they need raw materials you then have to ask where that material comes from, and who produces it.

Sorry, but there are things that can't be replicated. (canon examples - such as alcholic rainwater "The Schizoid Man," a vaccine "Code of Honour," a type of blood "The Enemy" etc)

And this would effect the average person how? I said a replicator could provide a person with their everyday needs and since that is exactly what it does on the show I feel fairly happy in that conclusion.

I would also like a quote on this alcoholic rainwater - I can find no mention of it and it sounds interesting.

I was defining their limitations, which do affect the average person - sometimes drastically. The Romulan in "The Enemy" was an average Rommie, yet the fact Crusher couldn't replicate his blood type was somewhat relevant to his condition, wouldn't you say? What about the average people on Styris IV, who desperately needed that vaccine which obviously couldn't be replicated? As for the alcoholic rainwater that's in "The Schizoid Man" - look it up on Mike's canon database.

We're talking ST here, not SG-1. I said before that if we don't see it onscreen, we have no reason to believe it exists.

And I am showing the level of idiocy inherent in that way of analysing the show, given the focus of the show we only see things form a narrow point of view and most of the times when we break out of it we see the sort of things you ask for (DS9 shops, freighters etc , Earth having the farms, shops cafes and so on) but because we don't see them that often (because of the restricted view we have form the show) you try to pull a fast one and claim they are exceptions.

Wait a minute. We are told about the Ferengi Alliance Stock Market crash (or something to that effect) in the episode "Homefront" (Quark tries to sympathise with Bashir and O'Brien by likening the problems on Earth with a problem on Ferengi, and the two men tease him for being concerned about his people's financial troubles - inspite of the fact Quark was actually genuinely concerned for them both, and their attitude towards him was disgusting). That's some narrow focus there. Now, if it's good for the Ferengi why can't it be good for the Federation? - In other words, why don't we hear about a financial report, even if it's in passing, that details the economic model of the Federation? Even if it's a throwaway line? We got one for the Ferengi, so why not Earth?

I never claimed the vineyard and restaurant (try to be consistent) were exceptions. I just want you to prove they're businesses.

This doesn't apply to toilets, as we do see part of a fresher suite in some character's quarters - Picard in FC, Chakotay and Harry Kim on Voyager. But funnily enough we don't see examples of investment or a stock market. Ever. So why assume they have it?

We haven't seen a Romulan stock market, or a Klingon one or a Dominion and so on are al these nations communist (although the lack of a stock market doesn't prove they are communist since capitalism existed before stock markets, simply with more primitive investment) or is it because we don't happen to have seen that side of them?
We see now hint of investment or a stock market during Enterprise yet that is pre TOS meaning it must be pre the Red Menace seizing power.

No, dumbass. What do we see? A reference to the Ferengi stock market crash ("Homefront"). Numerous examples of interstellar trade being conducted in a barter system (rather than our modern economic model). We don't see Klingon stock market, but since they're feudalistic it doesn't matter; all the wealth will be in the hands of the Emperor or Gowron, and the various House Lords. We don't see a Romulan stock market, but we don't see a lot of Romulas anyway (travel is prohibited, remember? To and from). While we don't see the Dominion stock market we do see them send Jem'Hadar out to terminate a Karemma trader who was illegally trading with the Federation.

All of these examples have precisely nothing to do with the Federation being communist, and all of them are red herrings.

Get fucked. If you'll bother to reread my listing of quotes that I provided:

I read them, they prove nothing, I rebutted them all and you didn't counter, I take that to mean you aren't capable of doing so adequately (not that that fact has prevented you thus far) and have instead dodged but let us take a look at what you have come up with shall we.

You are a fuckhead, aren't you?

Europe nations used to have nationalised communications, state owned news outlets, state owned gas, state owned power, state owned munitions production, state owned defence production, state owned transportation, state owned road networks and so on, yet Britain wasn't communist when we had these things.

And for the umpteenth time, I wasn't talking about Britain fucknuckle! I was talking about the European nations that were under communist rule by the Soviets! They had all of the above, and in addition to that, people couldn't invest in capital - something which you could do in Britain.

Sisko does own property though, on Bajor (and as I have pointed out he expected to own it when Bajor was a Federation world), owning property is obviously possible.

Fuckshit, owning property is possible under communism - people "owned" property in the Soviet Union, my parents lived in such property. You can't fucking invest capital into said property, however! If Sisko could invest capital into his Bajoran house, maybe turn it into a villa for other Bajorans or Federation citizens, perhaps open up a resort to attract commerce, you would have a fucking point. As it happens, all he wanted was a house to retire in.

I consider greed and the accumulation of wealth for its own sake to be infantile however I am not a communist, Picard says nothing more than that, he doesn't say personal ownership is infantile simply amassing wealth at all costs is wrong (and there are Federation citizens who disagree with him, remember Picard is a paragon of virtue (by fed standards) and he considers many things infantile and beneath him).

First bolded: That is an ideological statement and it fits perfectly within context of a Communist "Paragon" of virtue. In other words, your rebuttal doesn't do anything other than to introduce anecdotal opinions ("I consider greed to be infantile" blah blah) which do nothing to address how Picard spouts communist ideology.

Second Bolded: This is exactly what I was saying above about how I provide evidence for my claims, while you do not. Here's a task for you - go and find me some Federation citizens that are wealthy, have their own personal transport, their own business, conduct their business inside Federation territory, and please give an episode name.

I got it from Mike's canon database, and in it he says it comes from the shooting script. It's still canon, if it is written by the guy who's on the screen credits.

That isn't Paramount's policy I am afraid.

It's not canon that it was in the script (which is printed and can be viewed by everyone) and written by the same guy who's credited for the episode?

In any case, the statement I highlighted in bold speaks for itself (in case you don't know on which side of the political spectrum one finds communism, it's to the left - next to socialism, so either way, I win), while it does nothing to refute my position.

So either way you win??? Proving the Federation is left leaning is not the same as proving it is communist (unless you are one of those people who thinks Western Europe and Canada are strong holds of crazy Pinko Commies in which case you extremism doesn't interest me).

Of course it's not the same, fuckhead. Proving the Federation is extreme left suggests it is communist. I was attempting to be jocular, you twat. (oh, and nice combo of an ad hominem and a strawman - I never said WE or Canada were havens for communism, and I sure as shit ain't an extremist)

I don't have to since we never see it run as a business. And that was my claim. Your claim was otherwise, therefore back it up.

It seemed like business to me, just as much as any farm I might come across and spend 30 minutes watching.

Wow. It "seems" like a business to you. Care to back up your "impressions" that it is, in fact, a business? Furthermore I call your attention to the quote done by Publius.

Again, you must keep in mind we're talking about TNG. Not TOS, which has already been established as capitalist.

Which was my point, since we don't see something n both TNG and TOS its absence doesn't prove anything (because if it did it would say the same about both time periods).

Take that logic (we don't see it, so we can't assume it exists) and apply it to capitalism and privatisation in the federation. Do we see it? No. Should we therefore assume it exists? No. Concession accepted.

To the first point, Western European nations combine the concept of privatisation with state-owned and run services. To the second point, I never mentioned Britain's history so I can only assume it's a red herring.

Britain once had many of the things state owned that the Federation does, my point was that these utilities being state owned proves nothing.

Your point about Britain is irrelevant, as it was never under communist rule. Therefore, it is a red herring (particularly since I never mentioned Britain, you did). Your point about the Federation is irrelevant as well, as not only do we see state run and owned (and supported by the military) utilities, services and production facilities, but in additon we do not see capital investment. We do not see a Federation stock market. We do not see privately owned and run corporations, utilities, services and production facilities.

Right back at ya', bub.

they can fashion everything, according to you, from dinner, shaving cream, a trombone etc.

They CAN fashion a violin, this much is known.

Episode? I honestly can't remember seeing it, though it doesn't surprise me.

And that's not a concession either, Darkling. That violin had to come from somewhere. Someone had to provide the raw materials in order for the replicator to even make the violin - raw materials that have to be produced.

[Uraniun235]

Episode? I honestly can't remember seeing it, though it doesn't surprise me.

It's the episode of TNG where Data meets his "mother."

[TheDarkling]

Episode: "Aquiel" Season 6, Subspace Relay Station 47, Lieutenants Keith Rocha and Aquiel Uhnari are stationed there to keep the station in working order. Two starfleet officers. Handling subspace communications. So, now the Federation owns the modes of communication, AND station military personnel to conduct maintenance. Quite telling, no?

So you have nothing to back up that they monitor communications? That is all I wanted to know.

Yeah I've seen DS9, I just can't recall the Dominion symbol - I didn't even know they had a symbol.

ok then here is it is Ex astris scientia

Contradicted by canon - unless you wish to offer proof to back that claim up?

Julian Bashir's father worked as a steward on a transport.

And if it is private, why is a Federation Battleship being used to ferry colonists to their destination if private transportation services are available (the Enterprise ferried the Bringoldi human colonists to the Mariposa colony "Up the Long Ladder")?

Because they received a distress signal and were sent to check it out, that is something that would fall under Starfleet’s mandate I would think, they then picked them off went to investigate another planet and dropped them off there.

Why can't colonists evacuate their world in case of attack by malignant entities (11'000 colonists on Rana 4 were wiped out because no-one had an interstellar spacecraft "Survivors")?

There obviously was any spacecraft near there and nobody on the planet owned one (hardly evidence one way of the other if the colony was self sufficient and if it wasn't you would still expect any theoretical Federation owned transports to pay a visit - either way it proves little).

Why is a Federation Battleship being used to carry cargo to colonies that need it if private freight companies exist (various instances where a colony was desperate for a vaccine or drug, or needed medical supplies, and only the Enterprise could be used - "Code of Honour," "The Child," "The High Ground" respectively)?

Code of Honour involved negotiations for the vaccines so the Enterprise was sent.
The Child involved a deadly contagion for which a special containment system had to be built.
The High Ground was an urgent situation after a sudden flare up of protests (and terrorists activities no doubt) and it is possible the Enterprise was the fastest ship in the area at the time.

Your examples prove little and I am somewhat surprised you can't see why the Enterprise would be used in these situations regardless of whether other transportation was available.

In all of those instances a private freighter or transport could have served just as well as the Enterprise, yet we don't see any being used.

No it couldn’t see above, you must also remember that the Enterprise often flies about on the edge of Federation space, the number of ships out there is likely to be less.

Irrelevant, as she was working outside of Federation territory before Bajor was admitted into the Federation (presuming this event actually does occur), so your point proves nothing. She could just pack her bags and move on. Oh wait, she was arrested for working with the Maquis, and doesn't own a freighter anymore - or work, at all, becoming nothing more than Sisko's wife. Funny about that.

She got her freighter back and during the Dominion war she acted as a liaison between a convoy of private freighter captains and the Defiant which was escorting them (i.e. she was working for the federation along with all those other freighter captains).

So now we have one example of many private freighter captains working for the federation and running cargo in federation space for the federation -seems like that allays the previous issues you had with Yates.

An honest mistake. Yet I want proof it was his ship, owned by him. (Scotty owns his own shuttle, but he didn't buy it - Picard "lent" it to him)

We have no reason to assume it didn't, Soong says he didn't like living anywhere without a means of escape and the simplest explanation is that he owned it.

It was quite common in the Soviet Union to go to the black market for things you couldn't get. Fajo is a crook. Fajo is rich and has the supply the Federation demand needs. Fajo isn't a corporation nor a business (legitimate one, anyway) - he's a guy, who Picard goes to get the shit a Federation colony needs.

But outward appearances suggest he isn't a crook so again it has no real relevance and when we have evidence of many other freighters captains working for the Federation it becomes more clear that this is usual.

I could name a half dozen people who own their own ships now but they are all crooks of one sort of another and do you know why that is? because a ship like the Enterprise is most often going to encounter crooks in its journeys (at least the ones we see) but if it is only the criminals of the Federation that have ships don't you think they would all stand out a little?

I can tell you that "Vulcan freighters" exist surely if the federation owned all the freighters they would be of generic Federation design

We have seen a Vulcan freighter that was owned by an individual Vulcan (but again because she defected to the Marquis no doubt this freighter sprung out of thin air the moment she stopped being a federation citizen).

In fact most Federation races operate their own freighter's seems odd if it is all run by Starfleet however because we never had a five minute interview with each captain you won't believe they re bother federation citizens and the owners of this own vessels.

How the fuck are my examples "incontinent" (unless you mean the word "inconsistent" in which case you are still wrong, just not humourously)? Further, answer your own question: who is providing transportation in the Federation?

Blasted spell checker (although I still think it fits ) as for who provides transportation - it may be a mixture of private enterprise and Federation run or it may just be private Enterprise except for specific situations.

As for your example, let's analyse it:

Quark's shuttle was carrying contraband too, a fact which Odo charges him for at the end of the episode. For some reason, no-one could repair Quark's ship so he was forced to sell it for salvage (possibly as punishment for carrying contraband in the first place). Lastly, the shuttle - which was worth a lot to Quark - can only be redeemed for 2 one-way tickets out of the Federation.

The shuttle was totalled and probably had to be sold for scrap and the contraband charge hadn't been ruled upon so there couldn't have been any punishments as a result of it - that theory doesn't hold up and is frankly ridiculous.

1) This means that transportation is hideously expensive in the Federation (and easily come by outside the Federation, as Quark - a private citizen - had his own ship given to him by his cousin - a private citizen).

If it was that easy Quark would have bought his own and all it means is that scrap Ferengi shuttles don't see for much in the Sol system, don't forget the man who gave Quark the shuttle owns his own moon, hardly a poor fellow.

If passage was expensive as you would have us believe Nog wouldn't have been able to go to Starfleet academy is the first place because he couldn't have afforded the transit costs.

2) Your example doesn't show private transportation is provided in the Federation, it just shows that to get anywhere you have to book passage. Those who have their own private transport (Quark) are at a disadvantage, as Quark couldn't repair his ship for some reason.

I didn't say it did prove the Federation provided transportation only that transportation was available in exchange for money.

3) Quark sold his ship for salvage which suggests it was a material trade, not a ship trade. For some reason it couldn't be repaired, which leads me to believe Quark had no choice but to sell it. The possibility remains that this was a form of punishment exacted onto Quark for carrying contraband in the first place.

Wrong, as I said above he hadn't even been charged with that crime so how could he be punished for it.

His ships was probably worth very little because there isn't a high demand for Ferengi spare parts at Earth (which also explains why he couldn't get/afford any).

Flat out lie. There were multiple reporters there, and that doesn't make much sense if there was only one news service, so in effect mentioning it has nothing to do with ST: TNG. Therefore, it was changing the subject.

What? And its quiet possible all the people there were competing for the story (the Federation news service seems to work on freelances bringing stories to them not them assigning reporters).

As for your quote in parentheses, the date of the revolution isn't known, but it is assumed to have occurred sometime after TOS.

You mean sometime after the Ent B's launch which narrows the timescale somewhat.

There were publishing houses in the Soviet Union, too. The salient point I was addressing was that the News Services in the Federation are owned and run by the Federation. And there appears to be only one such News service, as well - giving a clear monopoly of information to the government.

Setting up your own news network wouldn't be that difficult (as long as you had the people) so it must seem that the editorial practices of the Federation news service don't bother eth journalists (implying they don't block or alter stories) and Jake who has worked for them in the past was shocked that freedom of the press could be blocked by the Dominion.

The ability for manipulation of the truth exists but any reporter could easily circumvent this (it isn't difficult to broadcast over subspace) this implies that the Federation News Service simply passes along reports from its Reporters and probably does some "Featured Items" so it isn't like a modern day news channel or newspaper but more similar to a repository of journalist reports that other people can access if they want.

Bullshit. Personal property isn't abolished under communism, only the investment of capital in said property, which Marx found to be "exploitation." Picard's vineyard, Sisko's restaurant etc do not disprove the communist underpinnings of the Federation. Since we see no example of private investment in their property why assume they can? The onus is on you to prove they can.

If you can buy a ship or land and build a building one it then what is to stop you opening a shop on it, what is to stop you buying land of somebody else or buying a shop off somebody else?

Dumbass the fact they can't replicate everything proves they need raw materials to replicate from.

No it doesn't.
The may not be able to replicate certain items because those items are incompatible with replicator technology (some things cannot be transported, so it stands to reason such items couldn't be formed in a replicator either).

If they could replicate everything they wouldn't need raw materials - they'd just use energy (making replicators sillier than they already are).

Also not true, they may still need mater even if they could replicate anything (due to energy costs or what have you).

There are items they cannot replicate, due to the unique properties of the material in question. Why assume they don't need raw materials for things they can replicate?

Because we know they can form atoms with the replicator (without having a quantity of that atom on board), and if they can make an atom it stands to reason they can combines those atoms and so on all the way up to physical items (Ref Night Terrors - they can't replicate elements due to power loss but if they need a store of elements then they should have them anyway).

We also know that they can reintegrate somebody using the transporter with only their energy present and since transporters and replicators are similar devices….

Of course if you are saying the raw materials for a replicator are sub atomic in nature then what is to stop the federation simply ripping up anything, breaking it down and then using that as raw materials, they could turn dirt, human waste, left overs, water, air and just about anything into replicator real materials, in which case the replicator raw materials could be very easily acquired and very easily automated.

Is this shit supposed to come out of handwaving? Magic fairy dust? Furthermore, once you accept the fact they need raw materials you then have to ask where that material comes from, and who produces it.

Automation, mining corporations, back as early as Enterprise they can change one material to another (human waste into boots) and they see replicators as a huge step forward but why so if they can already do the same thing?

I was defining their limitations, which do affect the average person - sometimes drastically. The Romulan in "The Enemy" was an average Rommie, yet the fact Crusher couldn't replicate his blood type was somewhat relevant to his condition, wouldn't you say? What about the average people on Styris IV, who desperately needed that vaccine which obviously couldn't be replicated?

We know that type 5 transporters can't transport some complex bio matter perhaps replicators have a similar problem with complex bio matter, however that is hardly the issue I said a replicator could provide for a persons daily needs and it can.

As for the alcoholic rainwater that's in "The Schizoid Man" - look it up on Mike's canon database.

Yes nobody says it can't be replicated only that it occurs in the wild every 100+ years (difference between normal and replicated food in taste remember).

Wait a minute. We are told about the Ferengi Alliance Stock Market crash (or something to that effect) in the episode "Homefront" (Quark tries to sympathise with Bashir and O'Brien by likening the problems on Earth with a problem on Ferengi, and the two men tease him for being concerned about his people's financial troubles - inspite of the fact Quark was actually genuinely concerned for them both, and their attitude towards him was disgusting). That's some narrow focus there. Now, if it's good for the Ferengi why can't it be good for the Federation? - In other words, why don't we hear about a financial report, even if it's in passing, that details the economic model of the Federation? Even if it's a throwaway line? We got one for the Ferengi, so why not Earth?

The Ferengi are obsessed with Finance 5 minutes in their daily lives is likely to involve talk of profits, stocks, stores, supplies, cash flow, Latinium etc, the starfleeters aren't going to be that frequent.

To and from). While we don't see the Dominion stock market we do see them send Jem'Hadar out to terminate a Karemma trader who was illegally trading with the Federation.

Which proves what?

I would also point out in that episode Quark mentions a "Bolian Credit Exchange" seems like a mention of a Federation financial implement and there is also mention of Tarkalian Sheep herders losing income, both these races are thought to be Fed members, so we have 2 minutes of talk about Federation trade and all sorts of capitalist things begin to appear, could it be that a view from Starfleet doesn't provide us with a complete view?

All of these examples have precisely nothing to do with the Federation being communist, and all of them are red herrings.

No they all aim to show that a restricted view of a culture isn't going to reveal everything about it.

And for the umpteenth time, I wasn't talking about Britain fucknuckle! I was talking about the European nations that were under communist rule by the Soviets! They had all of the above, and in addition to that, people couldn't invest in capital - something which you could do in Britain.

No the point was that Britain had state owned infrastructure and (Pay attention.... focus... focus here comes the important part...... ready?) wasn't communist.

That is the point, state owned infrastructure is not exclusive to communism and thus proves nothing, I have said it about 4 times now what is the problem?

Fuckshit, owning property is possible under communism - people "owned" property in the Soviet Union, my parents lived in such property. You can't fucking invest capital into said property, however! If Sisko could invest capital into his Bajoran house, maybe turn it into a villa for other Bajorans or Federation citizens, perhaps open up a resort to attract commerce, you would have a fucking point. As it happens, all he wanted was a house to retire in.

Let me put if another way, currently people on Bajor have farms and do export their own produce there is also other business do you think the Communist Federation will allow this to continue? Do you think they would allow Sisko to buy up vast tracts of land to do with as he pleases? How did Sisko afford this land?

First bolded: That is an ideological statement and it fits perfectly within context of a Communist "Paragon" of virtue. In other words, your rebuttal doesn't do anything other than to introduce anecdotal opinions ("I consider greed to be infantile" blah blah) which do nothing to address how Picard spouts communist ideology.

No Picard spouts off left learning ideology, higher taxes to make sure all have access to medical etc, it doesn't prove anything (I understand this was you climb down position after your allegation about Picard not knowing what investment is turned out to be false but it is time to let it go).

Second Bolded: This is exactly what I was saying above about how I provide evidence for my claims, while you do not. Here's a task for you - go and find me some Federation citizens that are wealthy, have their own personal transport, their own business, conduct their business inside Federation territory, and please give an episode name.

Kasidy Yates and every other freighter captain in a Federation convoy "The Sound of Her Voice".

It's not canon that it was in the script (which is printed and can be viewed by everyone) and written by the same guy who's credited for the episode?

That is correct.

Of course it's not the same, fuckhead. Proving the Federation is extreme left suggests it is communist. I was attempting to be jocular, you twat. (oh, and nice combo of an ad hominem and a strawman - I never said WE or Canada were havens for communism, and I sure as shit ain't an extremist)

Then again Left leaning != Communist.

Wow. It "seems" like a business to you. Care to back up your "impressions" that it is, in fact, a business? Furthermore I call your attention to the quote done by Publius.

There is nothing to indicate it is not a business in what we see of it, you stated for a fact that they didn't export and you have yet to back this claim up - do so and stop trying to dance around your burden of proof.

Take that logic (we don't see it, so we can't assume it exists) and apply it to capitalism and privatisation in the federation. Do we see it? No. Should we therefore assume it exists? No. Concession accepted.

You can read right? Then try again.

If we don't see something in TOS then its absence from TNG does no prove anything about TNG that it doesn't prove about TOS.

Your point about the Federation is irrelevant as well, as not only do we see state run and owned (and supported by the military) utilities, services and production facilities, but in additon we do not see capital investment. We do not see a Federation stock market. We do not see privately owned and run corporations, utilities, services and production facilities.

Bajor is obviously Capitalist, are you about to tell me that the people of Bajor don’t mind have their ships taken from them, their businesses stolen and so on? Why was Quark happy about Bajor joining the Federation? If Quark doesn’t mind his free Enterprise being crushed something odd is going on.

Now Bajor is the one world we have seen in detail and only rarely do we see businesses occurring here (mainly on DS9) if we don’t see it that often on a capitalist world we study in detail how can we see it in the quick flashes we gain of Earth?

And that's not a concession either, Darkling. That violin had to come from somewhere. Someone had to provide the raw materials in order for the replicator to even make the violin - raw materials that have to be produced.

They can also make guitars as Data did in the Neutral Zone.

[Stofsk]

So you have nothing to back up that they monitor communications? That is all I wanted to know.

What, you can't read? I pointed out that the subspace relay stations are owned by the Federation, run by the starfleet military, and monitoring the communications is pretty fucking easy - when the Enterprise away team beamed aboard the place was alive with the buzz of other people's communications - how much effort do you think it would require to discriminate that noise to one particular signal?

*snip Dominion symbol*

Jesus, that is one ugly symbol.

Julian Bashir's father worked as a steward on a transport.

Sorry, that doesn't prove Daddy Bashir worked for a private company.

Because they received a distress signal and were sent to check it out, that is something that would fall under Starfleet's mandate I would think, they then picked them off went to investigate another planet and dropped them off there.

Conceded.

There obviously was any spacecraft near there and nobody on the planet owned one (hardly evidence one way of the other if the colony was self sufficient and if it wasn't you would still expect any theoretical Federation owned transports to pay a visit - either way it proves little).

Rana 4 isn't the only example, Data's colony of Omicron Theta, Forlat 3, Melona 4, were all destroyed by malignant space entities, and in each case no colonist survived because there was no spacecraft available to leave - the only exception to that is Noonien Soong, and he left before the attack anyway, possibly in his own ship. What happened to the transportation that originally brought the colonists to their respective planets?

This proves that large scale transportation isn't common at all, and in the case of Rana 4 Picard implies that interstellar spacecraft aren't provided by either private sources or the Federation government, as the following quote demonstrates:

TROI: Could the colonists have escaped?
DATA: That is unlikely. Rana Four possessed no interstellar spacecraft.

This further implies colonies are founded by essentially dumping lots of people onto a planet's surface, which is supported by other episodes. There were no cannibalised transport remains on Melona 4 to assemble the colony, they were essentially dumped there by the Enterprise, which departed for some reason, leaving the colonists and starfleet away team to fend for themselves when the Giant Snowflake came a'knockin'..

Code of Honour involved negotiations for the vaccines so the Enterprise was sent.
The Child involved a deadly contagion for which a special containment system had to be built. The High Ground was an urgent situation after a sudden flare up of protests (and terrorists activities no doubt) and it is possible the Enterprise was the fastest ship in the area at the time.

Your examples prove little and I am somewhat surprised you can't see why the Enterprise would be used in these situations regardless of whether other transportation was available.

So a Federation battleship is sent to do all these missions, when a transport carrying dedicated diplomatic personnel would have been more suited? Or a transport with dedicated cargo-carrying facilities would have been more apt?

Code of Honour: I can buy the Enterprise being sent to conduct negotiations, but as warp drive is so limited in speed (and the Federation territory encompasses a lot of space) it would make sense to have a dedicated cargo ship ready to take the vaccines to the planet that needs them, straight after Picard secures a deal. That way, the Enterprise could continue it's long-range patrols without having to be diverted to take care of a plague outbreak.

The Child: A special containment system had to be built, and a Federation capital ship is the only ship available for this? C'mon, a dedicated freighter, which would carry more of the vaccines/medicine etc, could have had this system put aboard it just as well as the Enterprise, and it would have made more sense.

PICARD VO: Captain's log, Stardate 43510.7. The Enterprise has put in at Rutia Four to deliver medical supplies following an outbreak of violent protests. Although non-aligned, the planet has enjoyed a long trading relationship with the Federation.

Picard's opening log entry describes Rutia 4 as "non-aligned," yet he's there delivering cargo (specifically medical supplies). It's not surprising that the Federation engages in trade with them, but it is surprising that once again a Federation Battleship was called off patrol and sent to deliver supplies. Where are the dedicated cargo ships? Why is all this run by the military? Note the final sentence, where he states they're non-aligned, and that they enjoy a long trading relationship with the Federation, proving this isn't an isolated event. There should be cargo ships, but we don't see them.

In these 3 examples we are shown no cargo ships, in spite of the fact their inclusion would have been more fitting than just the Enterprise.

...you must also remember that the Enterprise often flies about on the edge of Federation space, the number of ships out there is likely to be less.

If that were true, then why is she always putting into port, being assigned a role of glorified colony transport, medical transport, cargo transport etc? She should be out there exploring, or patroling the neutral zone. But she's not.

She got her freighter back and during the Dominion war

Yeah? Shit, because I can't remember that.

...she acted as a liaison between a convoy of private freighter captains and the Defiant which was escorting them (i.e. she was working for the federation along with all those other freighter captains).

So now we have one example of many private freighter captains working for the federation and running cargo in federation space for the federation -seems like that allays the previous issues you had with Yates.

Sorry, I just saw that scene where Yates talks about her assignment. She is specifically working for starfleet as a civilian liasion, no longer as a private freighter captain. Do you think starfleet would release her from "rehabilitation" and give her a freighter to work with? Furthermore, I don't recall those freighter captains being referred to as belonging to private corporations. So no, it doesn't allay my issues with Yates - she's now working for the military as a liasion between the merchant marine service - and at no point is it revealed that there are numerous company freighters being escorted.

We have no reason to assume it didn't, Soong says he didn't like living anywhere without a means of escape and the simplest explanation is that he owned it.

He owned his ship because he "didn't like living anywhere without a means of escape", and no-one else in any of the colonies that I detailed above had the foresight to see the wisdom in his attitude (which is demonstrably unique). No-one, not private citizens (which don't exist under communism), not private transportation services (which also don't exist under communism), to private spacecraft industries, which could conceivably make a profit from maunfacturing escape vehicles for colonies (not under communism).

So what do we see? Soong owns a ship, and he's a recluse (and Okona's a rogue, and Fajo and Yates are "independent" traders - well, until they were both arrested, anyway). Colonists are dumped there by military-owned vessels such as the Enterprise, which proves once again the modes of transportation are owned by the government, and enacted by the military. No-one has an alternative - a private shuttle or runabout, which could at least evacuate dozens of colonists each - DS9's runabouts did just this in the season 2 opening trilogy, using 3 runabouts to squeeze all Federation civilians off of the station, which had how many peopel? A couple hundred?. Is it so much to ask to leave a couple dozen runabouts, or bigger ships that could serve to evacuate a colony?

But outward appearances suggest he isn't a crook so again it has no real relevance and when we have evidence of many other freighters captains working for the Federation it becomes more clear that this is usual.

But are they private freighter captains, belonging to a private freight company? You can't answer that, because there is no example of it in Trek. Fajo is an independent trader, who turns out to be a crook. This wouldn't be uncommon in a communist state. What should be common in a capitalist state is examples of large-scale private companies handling these things.

I could name a half dozen people who own their own ships

Good, now name half a dozen corporations that are specifically referred to as privately owned and operated. What about defence contractors who are lining up to build the Defiant-class heavy destroyer? Who produces the quantum torpedoes sitting happily in the tubes of all the Sovereigns, Akiras, and other Defiants? Let's hear bidding between two ship building companies to get a defence contract. Fuck, let's hear of a private corporation funding a colonisation effort for the Federation, transporting colonists and providing their equipment. Let's see Jake get a latest model shuttle for his 21st birthday, and taking pilot lessons from his dad and Nog.

...now but they are all crooks of one sort of another and do you know why that is? because a ship like the Enterprise is most often going to encounter crooks in its journeys (at least the ones we see) but if it is only the criminals of the Federation that have ships don't you think they would all stand out a little?

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this point, as it proves that private ships are owned by criminal elements (such as that guy from "Gambit" or the Vulcan girl from "The Maquis"), or at best "independent" ships that don't answer to Federation authority (such as Yates and Fajo).

I can tell you that "Vulcan freighters" exist surely if the federation owned all the freighters they would be of generic Federation design.

Nope, your analogy doesn't fit. Firstly, alien crews require alien needs, therefore there is going to be discrimination in the Federation - and we see plenty of evidence for that. Secondly we do see generic designs, and they're owned by the Federation. Thirdly you can have a Russian freighter and a Polish freighter and a Hungarian railway, but they would all be Soviet.

We have seen a Vulcan freighter that was owned by an individual Vulcan (but again because she defected to the Maquis no doubt this freighter sprung out of thin air the moment she stopped being a federation citizen).

So you use a terrorist and obvious criminal as evidence that people use their own vehicles? While technically true your example is somewhat bizarre. Why assume she is a member of a legitimate authority like the Vulcan government or a Vulcan corporation, when it becomes clear to us when we see her sit down with Quark that she doesn't belong to a legitimate authority? You have to prove there are transportation services that are owned by corporations and the private sector that conduct legitimate business in the Federation.

...as for who provides transportation - it may be a mixture of private enterprise and Federation run or it may just be private Enterprise except for specific situations.

So prove that there are large-scale private transport, since most of what we see are Federation owned and operated by the military.

The shuttle was totalled and probably had to be sold for scrap and the contraband charge hadn't been ruled upon so there couldn't have been any punishments as a result of it - that theory doesn't hold up and is frankly ridiculous.

That shuttle didn't look totalled. In fact, it looked in good repair. It is a mystery why Quark felt forced to sell it, a fact which you've casually ignored. Something drove him to sell it for salvage, so he could get the fuck out of Federation territory and back to DS9. Odo isn't a Federation security officer, so he can charge him with violating the law from a Bajoran standpoint; what's to stop the Federation from doing the same? Don't forget Odo would have dobbed him in the second they put into port, and I doubt starfleet would appreciate a Ferengi captain heading towards earth with a cargo hold of contraband. I suggested a possibility which makes sense. You respond by saying it's rediculous but don't specify why. Quark's shuttle could have been repaired (starfleet engineers are famed throughout the quadrant at turning "rocks into replicators" - a reputation a Vorta was aware of), he could have paid for it in legal currency which would show how capitalistic the Federation is, and he could have been on his way. None of that happened.

If it was that easy Quark would have bought his own and all it means is that scrap Ferengi shuttles don't see for much in the Sol system, don't forget the man who gave Quark the shuttle owns his own moon, hardly a poor fellow.

It is easy for Quark and others to get their own transportation outside the Federation. Quark never bought his own because 1) his cousin Ghala promised him he'd give him one someday (something Quark waited for years to have fulfilled) and 2) Quark has had a string of unsuccessful business ventures which have failed to pull through. He personally may not be able to afford a ship of his own (lets not forget the fact that while he was waiting for Ghala to pull through he was also tending his bar - something which costs him money).

If passage was expensive as you would have us believe Nog wouldn't have been able to go to Starfleet academy is the first place because he couldn't have afforded the transit costs.

Why would the cost of 2 one-way transport tickets equal that to a warp capable shuttle that can carry cargo, if the cost for booking passage is cheap and freely available to all? The fact they weren't Federation citizens would probably be a detriment, as Federation citizens would get preferential treatment - especially when you have a society that dislikes the Ferengi. Let's not forget that for some reason Quark felt forced to sell his shuttle for salvage, when it did not appear overtly damaged. If it was "totalled" like you said earlier, then I fully expect Quark et al to be picked up in their escape pods, while his ship actually was nothing more than a debris field.

I didn't say it did prove the Federation provided transportation only that transportation was available in exchange for money.

Yeah, so what? I went to Hungary when it was still in the Soviet Union, along with my family. It still costed money. What's your point?

Wrong, as I said above he hadn't even been charged with that crime so how could he be punished for it.

His ships was probably worth very little because there isn't a high demand for Ferengi spare parts at Earth (which also explains why he couldn't get/afford any).

Wrong. He was charged by Odo at the end of the episode, in fact immediately after they stepped onto the station. You think Odo wouldn't dob him into starfleet the second they put into port - particularly since it was their jurisdiction? Can you tell me why he didn't? While you're at it can you tell me why Quark couldn't arrange for repairs on his ship? Can you also tell me how much Ferengi trade-ins are worth? How about the currency that Quark gained from the selling of it?

Not only did Quark lose his ship in this endeavour, but in the very next episode he was forced along by Sisko to handle trade negotiations with the Karemma ("Starship Mine"). And you think he wasn't charged for the crime of carrying contraband to the Federation capital? The obvious explanation is that Quark got off on a plea bargain arrangement, by being relieved of his vessel and any funds he could acquire from it, and by serving the Federation in an advisory function which offered no pay - since his crime was relatively minor, and that he wasn't caught with it (irrelevant anyway, since Odo would tell starfleet that he did possess contraband, and someone would figure that the only way they could return from the past is by using the shit in the technobabble way they did) this seems the likeliest reason.

What? And its quiet possible all the people there were competing for the story (the Federation news service seems to work on freelances bringing stories to them not them assigning reporters).

Once again you're talking about TOS. Doesn't matter, as there would be no competition if the News Service is monopolised by a single source. Since we see in "Generations" multiple reporters we can assume there were multiple news services. Since we see in TNG and DS9 only one News Service, we can assume there was a grand total of one news service. Since this confirms my assertion that the modes of publication are owned by the state, I'll be accepting your concession right about now.

You mean sometime after the Ent B's launch which narrows the timescale somewhat.

Yeah, by about 60 odd years. Maybe more. And the October revolution took a month.

The preparation before it and the fights with the counter-insurgents that followed (and were evidently quashed) would take longer, but the actual revolution would be sudden and quick.

Setting up your own news network wouldn't be that difficult (as long as you had the people) so it must seem that the editorial practices of the Federation news service don't bother eth journalists (implying they don't block or alter stories) and Jake who has worked for them in the past was shocked that freedom of the press could be blocked by the Dominion.

You're using Jake's naivette as proof that he's... naive. If he's shocked that the Dominion would censure his reports, what makes you think he wouldn't be shocked that the Federation would do the same? Nevermind the fact he never finds out about how his reports were received.

Oh, and nice unjustifiable assertion above. Just what makes you think setting up a news network wouldn't be difficult? That statement is so bizarre it is laughable.

The ability for manipulation of the truth exists but any reporter could easily circumvent this (it isn't difficult to broadcast over subspace) this implies that the Federation News Service simply passes along reports from its Reporters and probably does some "Featured Items" so it isn't like a modern day news channel or newspaper but more similar to a repository of journalist reports that other people can access if they want.

Once again, nice unjustifiable assertion. So it isn't difficult to broadcast over subspace, hmm? Inspite of the fact that the Federation owns and maintains the Subspace Relay network? Inspite of the fact that they station military officers on these relay stations who can redirect or even stop the traffic (remember Aquiel and Rocha on relay station 47 took over the comm traffic from relay station 194, which states this level of control is possible)? To broadcast anything over subspace you need to access the relay station. At any point your message can be effectively redirected or even stopped, and it isn't likely to get far because once it hits the first relay station it passes through starfleet officers, who are undoubtedly trained in their job as communications techs. A flick of a switch (or okudagram) and the message is silenced.

If you can buy a ship or land and build a building on it then what is to stop you opening a shop on it, what is to stop you buying land of somebody else or buying a shop off somebody else?

Wow, another unjustifiable assertion. So tell me - why doesn't Sisko open up a Bajoran All-you-can-eat Shrimp Creole restaurant, that's just a stone's throw away from Sisko's resort, where all the tourists of the Federation can come visit and meet the man who lead Federation fleets to victory.

What's stopping him? Gee, maybe a little thing called communism. It's supposed to prevent this kind of thing.

Dumbass the fact they can't replicate everything proves they need raw materials to replicate from.

No it doesn't.
The may not be able to replicate certain items because those items are incompatible with replicator technology (some things cannot be transported, so it stands to reason such items couldn't be formed in a replicator either).

So in other words this proves: 1) that certain materials just cannot be replicated (meaning the materials themselves are necessary, the replicator only helps in the process) and 2) raw materials are still needed because replicator technology has it's limits.

Concession accepted.

If they could replicate everything they wouldn't need raw materials - they'd just use energy (making replicators sillier than they already are).

Also not true, they may still need matter even if they could replicate anything (due to energy costs or what have you).

So they still need matter. Which means they need materials to replicate from. Which means someone somewhere needs to provide that raw material. Concession accepted.

*snip technobabble explanation*

You seem to conveniently forget that transporters and replicators operated on the principle of matter-energy-matter conversion (at least to ST). So a guy getting transported starts at matter, becomes energy, then rematerialises on the transporter pad. Tonight's dinner starts as raw biomass (which has to allow for edible food), becomes energy, then rematerialises in an altered form on the dinner plate. Raw materials are necessary, as you can't get something from nothing. Raw materials are obviously available for the replicators to use, so who provides them? Do we hear of a spat between 2 rival production companies over replicator supplies? No. Everything is provided by the state.

Automation, mining corporations, back as early as Enterprise they can change one material to another (human waste into boots) and they see replicators as a huge step forward but why so if they can already do the same thing?

I don't give a fuck about Boobyprise, and that predates the revolution anyway (and there are companies there and privatisation, so really, what the fuck is your point?).

If automation you have to provide evidence on who produces said automation. Who pays the technicians to maintain the automation? Who pays the facilities production managers?

If mining corporations you have to provide evidence that they still operate and are owned and run by the private sector. (The Dytallix Corp is defunct, their mines were abandoned for a long time, so provide another example)

We know that type 5 transporters can't transport some complex bio matter perhaps replicators have a similar problem with complex bio matter, however that is hardly the issue I said a replicator could provide for a persons daily needs and it can.

Yeah, so sick people don't need daily treatments of medicine, which the replicator can't provide. They need it, and it can't be provided. Concession accepted.

Yes nobody says it can't be replicated only that it occurs in the wild every 100+ years (difference between normal and replicated food in taste remember).

I'm getting tired of this shit. Let's read what Guinan said:

(Troi drinks an exotic liquid in Ten Forward)
TROI: It's wonderful. What is it?
GUINAN: A year on the planet Thurasia is four hundred and ninety days long. It rains twice, and only twice. You're drinking Thurasian rain water.
GEORDI: Water? Tastes more like...
TROI: Heaven.
GEORDI: Exactly. Where can I get some more of this?
GUINAN: 'Fraid that's the last of it. Next rainfall in a hundred and sixty three days.

So she can't replicate it, otherwise she'll be able to meet the supply demands right there. If it could be replicated Guinan would be able to go down to the Enterprise's replicating centre and get a new batch of it. She can't, and doesn't even consider it. Hence, it is safe to assume it can't be replicated. Concession accepted.

The Ferengi are obsessed with Finance 5 minutes in their daily lives is likely to involve talk of profits, stocks, stores, supplies, cash flow, Latinium etc, the starfleeters aren't going to be that frequent.

Which is another way of saying that they've got nothing to say about the Federation finance sector. In all of 12 years (from season 1 of TNG to season 7 of DS9), not one mention of the Federation stock market. Not even a throwaway line, which was all Quark's line amounted to anyway. To say that the Ferengi are greedy capitalist bastards doesn't assist your argument, in fact we can use it as a contrapoint to the communistic Federation.

DATA: The Ferengi are... well, the best description may be "traders."
PICARD: What kind of "traders"?
DATA: A more accurate comparison modern scholars have drawn from Earth history cites the ocean-going "Yankee Traders" of eighteenth and nineteenth century America, sir.
RIKER: From the history of my forebears? "Yankee Traders?"
DATA (nods): Who sail, in this case the galaxy, in search of mercantile and territorial opportunity.
RIKER: And are those scholars saying the Ferengi may not be too different from us?
DATA: Hardly, sir. I believe this analogy refers to the nefarious capitalist manner in which the Ferengi are known to conduct their affairs of commerce.

LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ... also that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds...
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi are now challenge this hu-man madness...

To the Federation, Ferengi engage in a "nefarious capitalist manner." To the Ferengi, the Federation are destroyers of "legal commerce." Wow, and this so proves the Federation is capitalistic, what with that communistic ideology an' all.

Which proves what?

I would also point out in that episode Quark mentions a "Bolian Credit Exchange" seems like a mention of a Federation financial implement and there is also mention of Tarkalian Sheep herders losing income, both these races are thought to be Fed members, so we have 2 minutes of talk about Federation trade and all sorts of capitalist things begin to appear, could it be that a view from Starfleet doesn't provide us with a complete view?

As far as commerce enforcement is handled in the Dominion, it proves that they terminate traders (Hanock and his ship were representatives of the Karemma government, and instead of arresting them the Jem'Hadar were sent to kill) who break Dominion law.

Looking through that episode I came across some illuminating facts. At the start it is revealed that Quark was exploiting the Federation restrictive trade laws (another sign of communism) for his own personal profit, cheating both the Karemma and with Sisko getting upset at him.

The mention of a "Bolian Credit Exchange" is erroneous, as Hanock says to Quark "Let's talk about those Bolian currency fluctuations," which has a completely different meaning. Furthermore, even if there was a "credit exchange" in place, you don't think such things existed in the Soviet Union? I could go with my family to Hungary and $20 AUSD could buy quadruple Hungarian Forint, or more or less depending on the "fluctuation."

As for Tarkalian sheep herders earning income, well hell's bells people could earn an income in the Soviet Union too. Both your examples neglect to prove anything.

No the point was that Britain had state owned infrastructure and (Pay attention.... focus... focus here comes the important part...... ready?) wasn't communist.

That is the point, state owned infrastructure is not exclusive to communism and thus proves nothing, I have said it about 4 times now what is the problem?

Because your reading comprehension is deficient. What did I say?

And for the umpteenth time, I wasn't talking about Britain fucknuckle! I was talking about the European nations that were under communist rule by the Soviets! They had all of the above, and in addition to that, people couldn't invest in capital - something which you could do in Britain.

Wow, newsflash dumbass - I wasn't talking about Britain where capital investment was possible, I was talking about the Eastern European nations which were communist, and some of the indications of this fact were state-owned infrastructure and no ability to transfer income into capital investment. I never talked about or accused Britain of being communist - at all. This is, according to you, the fourth time you've engaged in what amounts to as a Red Herring. Either shut the fuck up or concede the fucking point: which is there is no evidence of capital investment in the Federation, which also has state-owned and run infrastructure.

Let me put if another way, currently people on Bajor have farms and do export their own produce there is also other business do you think the Communist Federation will allow this to continue? Do you think they would allow Sisko to buy up vast tracts of land to do with as he pleases? How did Sisko afford this land?

Yes shithead - because this was allowed in the Soviet-fucking-Union. The countries in it could trade with each other - but only with each other. Once Bajor joins the Federation their legitimate trading partners will be other members of the Federation (nevermind the black market dealings). As for Sisko buying land - that wouldn't be possible unless his clout with the Bajorans wasn't high. Sisko has an element of prestige, from both the Bajoran and Federation, and this opens up the possibility of abuse.

No Picard spouts off left learning ideology, higher taxes to make sure all have access to medical etc, it doesn't prove anything.

It's heavily left, not merely leaning over a little. It proves Picard considers amassing of wealth for personal gain to be "infantile" - a strong ideological position, despite your opinion to the contrary. And your rebuttal doesn't address the point.

Kasidy Yates and every other freighter captain in a Federation convoy "The Sound of Her Voice".

Already rebutted. See above.

Then again Left leaning != Communist.

Then again Dumbass != You.

There is nothing to indicate it is not a business in what we see of it, you stated for a fact that they didn't export and you have yet to back this claim up - do so and stop trying to dance around your burden of proof.

Haha, that's rich coming from the fucker who continually shifts the burden of proof. You believe that the Picard vineyard and the Sisko restaurant are private businesses - yet you haven't offered the proof. I fucking pointed out that we never see examples of capital investment or exportation of goods and services by private companies; the onus is on you to prove otherwise. From the above quote I can see you have failed in this task, therefore concession accepted.

Take that logic (we don't see it, so we can't assume it exists) and apply it to capitalism and privatisation in the federation. Do we see it? No. Should we therefore assume it exists? No. Concession accepted.

You can read right? Then try again.

If we don't see something in TOS then its absence from TNG does no prove anything about TNG that it doesn't prove about TOS.

Yep, my reading skills are deficient. Obviously you didn't read what I wrote in the quoted statement. Do we see capitalism in the TNG Federation? No. Should we therefore assume it exists, in spite of all evidence to the contrary? No. Fucking concede, dipshit. (and once again, Red Herring on the TOS remark...)

Bajor is obviously Capitalist, are you about to tell me that the people of Bajor don't mind have their ships taken from them, their businesses stolen and so on?

I don't remember Bajor being capitalist. I remember it struggling to regain it's economy after 60+ years of occupation by the Cardassians, and the Federation was there to influence that recovery.

Why was Quark happy about Bajor joining the Federation? If Quark doesn't mind his free Enterprise being crushed something odd is going on.

Because he can get involved in the black market that permeates throughout the communist Federation. Seriously, he's cheated the Federation out of money, so why can't he do it again?

...if we don't see it that often on a capitalist world we study in detail how can we see it in the quick flashes we gain of Earth?

Wow, so in 12 + years of storytelling and in all that time we see and hear nothing to suggest the Federation is capitalist? Concession accepted.

Your track record of Red Herrings, unjustifiable assertions, and shifting the Burden of Proof speak for itself, Darkling. Not to mention your negligent quotes (and in one case, outright getting it wrong - Quark never mentioned the "Bolian Credit Exchange," it was Hanock, and he was talking about "Bolian currency fluctuations") and references (saying Yates was given back her ship, which I see no evidence for in the episode you cited, and in fact as it turns out she was working for fucking Starfleet, not herself!). You've been proven wrong about communications, transportation, publication and production - all of which are owned by Starfleet and the Federation. You have failed to provide evidence that privatisation and capital investment takes place in the Federation. Finally you have failed to disprove the theory that the Federation is communist, and you haven't bothered posting a counter claim that replaces the old theory. Either start providing real evidence that can't be picked apart, offer a new theory that replaces the old, or concede.

[TheDarkling]

What, you can't read? I pointed out that the subspace relay stations are owned by the Federation, run by the starfleet military, and monitoring the communications is pretty fucking easy - when the Enterprise away team beamed aboard the place was alive with the buzz of other people's communications - how much effort do you think it would require to discriminate that noise to one particular signal?

Only slightly less difficult that it would be to have a ship sitting out there monitoring a private subspace grid, you haven’t shown the Federation monitors communications only that they could - this is true of all government, Royal Mail could rifle through my mail, back when BT was owned by the government they could have had somebody sitting at the other end of the line listening in, this however doesn't mean that it occurs.

Jesus, that is one ugly symbol.

Why did you think they were angry at the Federation?

Sorry that doesn't prove Daddy Bashir worked for a private company.

I never said it did, I fear that with these multitudes of long involved strands we are both forgetting what things are in reference to.
I simply said there was a civilian authority for running transports (i.e. non Starfleet).

Rana 4 isn't the only example, Data's colony of Omicron Theta, Forlat 3, Melona 4, were all destroyed by malignant space entities, and in each case no colonist survived because there was no spacecraft available to leave - the only exception to that is Noonien Soong, and he left before the attack anyway, possibly in his own ship. What happened to the transportation that originally brought the colonists to their respective planets?

Either Starfleet did it for them, they hired a colony ship or they cannibalised the colony ship to build the colony (as seems to be common in trek).

And what is this “possibly” business? We have it from two independent sources that Sooong had his own method of escape and the fact that he escaped also backs up that idea.

This proves that large scale transportation isn't common at all, and in the case of Rana 4 Picard implies that interstellar spacecraft aren't provided by either private sources or the Federation government, as the following quote demonstrates:

TROI: Could the colonists have escaped?
DATA: That is unlikely. Rana Four possessed no interstellar spacecraft.

I see no quote from Picard (did you mean Data or do you refer to something else in the episode?), anyway that again proves little Troi obviously thought they might have had space craft (presumably private because if it was a Federation source Starfleet would have been informed) meaning it isn't that uncommon.

This further implies colonies are founded by essentially dumping lots of people onto a planet's surface, which is supported by other episodes. There were no cannibalised transport remains on Melona 4 to assemble the colony, they were essentially dumped there by the Enterprise, which departed for some reason, leaving the colonists and starfleet away team to fend for themselves when the Giant Snowflake came a'knockin'..

The Enterprise was helping set up the colony (although they were capable of independent construction), it wouldn't really surprise me if there was a federation bureau of colonisation but it is obviously possible to set yourself up independently if you wish.

So a Federation battleship is sent to do all these missions, when a transport carrying dedicated diplomatic personnel would have been more suited? Or a transport with dedicated cargo-carrying facilities would have been more apt?

The Enterprise is routinely called one of the fastest ships and Picard is an able diplomat as for getting a cargo carrier to carry the material, sure it is possible but I can certainly see the advantage to not passing out extremely unstable and dangerous diseases to civilian contractors.

Code of Honour: I can buy the Enterprise being sent to conduct negotiations, but as warp drive is so limited in speed (and the Federation territory encompasses a lot of space) it would make sense to have a dedicated cargo ship ready to take the vaccines to the planet that needs them, straight after Picard secures a deal. That way, the Enterprise could continue it's long-range patrols without having to be diverted to take care of a plague outbreak.

True enough, but the Enterprise was already on seen and is one of the fastets ships, time was of the essence.

The Child: A special containment system had to be built, and a Federation capital ship is the only ship available for this? C'mon, a dedicated freighter, which would carry more of the vaccines/medicine etc, could have had this system put aboard it just as well as the Enterprise, and it would have made more sense.

What are you trying to prove here, that the Federation has no freighters at all under its command? Because I don't see how that aids your case (and I find it unbelievable that they wouldn't anyway).

I can certainly see no reason to assume they would use civilian contractors for the job and I thought tat was the issue we were discussing, however a ship that has speed, a good engineering staff and medical staff is certainly suited to carrying this very dangerous disease (and everybody was very worried about it).

PICARD VO: Captain's log, Stardate 43510.7. The Enterprise has put in at Rutia Four to deliver medical supplies following an outbreak of violent protests. Although non-aligned, the planet has enjoyed a long trading relationship with the Federation.

Picard's opening log entry describes Rutia 4 as "non-aligned," yet he's there delivering cargo (specifically medical supplies). It's not surprising that the Federation engages in trade with them, but it is surprising that once again a Federation Battleship was called off patrol and sent to deliver supplies. Where are the dedicated cargo ships? Why is all this run by the military? Note the final sentence, where he states they're non-aligned, and that they enjoy a long trading relationship with the Federation, proving this isn't an isolated event. There should be cargo ships, but we don't see them.

So you don't think the Federation has cargo ships? We know they have dedicated transport ships and all a cargo ship is, is a transport ship without seats (to simplify things).
We also don't know that the Enterprise was on patrol, they could have been heading in the direction of Rutia and were assigned to carry the cargo on their way (or they were pulled away because the need was urgent and no other ships were available - Rutia may be far from the Federation core).

In these 3 examples we are shown no cargo ships, in spite of the fact their inclusion would have been more fitting than just the Enterprise.

First example: Speed and why use two ships when you can use one?
Second Example: Security and the level of danger involved in transporting the disease.
Third Example: O agree you would have thought they would acquire it through regular means but the Enterprise being sent isn’t that glaring a problem.

If that were true, then why is she always putting into port, being assigned a role of glorified colony transport, medical transport, cargo transport etc? She should be out there exploring, or patrolling the neutral zone. But she's not.

They could be servicing colonies out no the edge of Federation space.

Sorry, I just saw that scene where Yates talks about her assignment. She is specifically working for starfleet as a civilian liasion, no longer as a private freighter captain. Do you think starfleet would release her from "rehabilitation" and give her a freighter to work with? Furthermore, I don't recall those freighter captains being referred to as belonging to private corporations. So no, it doesn't allay my issues with Yates - she's now working for the military as a liasion between the merchant marine service - and at no point is it revealed that there are numerous company freighters being escorted.

She was hired because she knows those freighter captains, this implies there are private folk like her and she does still have her ship when the Breen attack Sisko doesn't want her doing cargo runs (and leans n the Bajorans to give her some paid leave), she also stresses that the Job as civilian liaison to Starfleet was recent and short term.

Those cargo ships are private ships like Kasidy's, why she wasn't on her ship I don't know but she does still have it.

He owned his ship because he "didn't like living anywhere without a means of escape", and no-one else in any of the colonies that I detailed above had the foresight to see the wisdom in his attitude (which is demonstrably unique). No-one, not private citizens (which don't exist under communism), not private transportation services (which also don't exist under communism), to private spacecraft industries, which could conceivably make a profit from maunfacturing escape vehicles for colonies (not under communism).

Yes but the point is he wanted one and he got one, it doesn't really matter that most other colonists are idiots (or to laid payback like eth federation in general).

So what do we see? Soong owns a ship, and he's a recluse (and Okona's a rogue, and Fajo and Yates are "independent" traders - well, until they were both arrested, anyway). Colonists are dumped there by military-owned vessels such as the Enterprise,

And what of the colonists from "Paradise" their colony ship was civilian.

which proves once again the modes of transportation are owned by the government, and enacted by the military.

We have civilian operated transports, privately owned cargo haulers working for the Federation, privately owned colony ships and every single time you are forced to explain them away as exceptions - they aren’t form the narrow view we have of the Federation we see much that you say should not exist.

No-one has an alternative - a private shuttle or runabout, which could at least evacuate dozens of colonists each - DS9's runabouts did just this in the season 2 opening trilogy, using 3 runabouts to squeeze all Federation civilians off of the station, which had how many peopel? A couple hundred?. Is it so much to ask to leave a couple dozen runabouts, or bigger ships that could serve to evacuate a colony?

Oh but those would be provided by the government so if they did exist would only service your argument further.

But are they private freighter captains, belonging to a private freight company? You can't answer that, because there is no example of it in Trek. Fajo is an independent trader, who turns out to be a crook. This wouldn't be uncommon in a communist state. What should be common in a capitalist state is examples of large-scale private companies handling these things.

As above we also have the cargo run with Kasidy as civilian liaison to the freighters because she knows the captains, why does she know the captains? Because like her they are all independent civilian operators, this fact is obvious and I assume you will see it and have just overlooked it.

Good, now name half a dozen corporations that are specifically referred to as privately owned and operated. What about defence contractors who are lining up to build the Defiant-class heavy destroyer? Who produces the quantum torpedoes sitting happily in the tubes of all the Sovereigns, Akiras, and other Defiants? Let's hear bidding between two ship building companies to get a defence contract. Fuck, let's hear of a private corporation funding a colonisation effort for the Federation, transporting colonists and providing their equipment. Let's see Jake get a latest model shuttle for his 21st birthday, and taking pilot lessons from his dad and Nog.

.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of this point, as it proves that private ships are owned by criminal elements (such as that guy from "Gambit" or the Vulcan girl from "The Maquis"), or at best "independent" ships that don't answer to Federation authority (such as Yates and Fajo).

Except that Vulcan ship obviously wasn't that unusual and she wasn't a crook before entering the Marquis (who by the way were able to acquire surplus Federation craft somehow) but again you find an slight irregularity and seize it.

Nope, your analogy doesn't fit. Firstly, alien crews require alien needs, therefore there is going to be discrimination in the Federation - and we see plenty of evidence for that. Secondly we do see generic designs, and they're owned by the Federation. Thirdly you can have a Russian freighter and a Polish freighter and a Hungarian railway, but they would all be Soviet.

We do not see individual ship designs for races in Starfleet why see it in the Red Transportation and Cargo haulage fleet?

So you use a terrorist and obvious criminal as evidence that people use their own vehicles? While technically true your example is somewhat bizarre. Why assume she is a member of a legitimate authority like the Vulcan government or a Vulcan corporation, when it becomes clear to us when we see her sit down with Quark that she doesn't belong to a legitimate authority? You have to prove there are transportation services that are owned by corporations and the private sector that conduct legitimate business in the Federation.

She owned her own ship and was (and may continue to be according to some) a Federation citizen who lived within Federation space - this is yet another example of private ownership of space vessel by a Federation citizen.

So prove that there are large-scale private transport, since most of what we see are Federation owned and operated by the military.

Gee do you think that could possibly be because the show is about the military?

That shuttle didn't look totalled.

It had to be towed by Earth Traffic Control, obviously its impulse engines were broken, we know its warp drive was a dud, of course we don't know what this parts go for but they could easily be expensive.
Ferengi shuttles don't seem to be that common among Ferengi (even the assassin Ferengi didn't have his own transportation which you would think was a necessary prerequisite of his profession) so maybe spare parts are also expensive (I wouldn't be surprised if the shuttles were designed so only one manufacturer could repair them in order to establish a monopoly and thus price gouge).

In fact, it looked in good repair. It is a mystery why Quark felt forced to sell it, a fact which you've casually ignored. Something drove him to sell it for salvage, so he could get the fuck out of Federation territory and back to DS9. Odo isn't a Federation security officer, so he can charge him with violating the law from a Bajoran standpoint; what's to stop the Federation from doing the same?

There was no trial and no evidence, if Quark had already been convicted once would he be shocked that Odo was doing the same, your theory makes no sense whatsoever (not to mention kasidy was found guilty of smuggling and she still has her ship).

Don't forget Odo would have dobbed him in the second they put into port, and I doubt starfleet would appreciate a Ferengi captain heading towards earth with a cargo hold of contraband. I suggested a possibility which makes sense.

No it doesn't it makes absolutely no sense, again why was Quark shocked then that Odo was going to even try for a conviction?

pquote]You respond by saying it's rediculous but don't specify why.[/quote]

I would have thought it obvious, we have seen people charged with smuggling keep their ships, Quark was shocked that Odo thought he could get a conviction and in fact surprised by the every notion - strange considering he just went through the same thing on Earth.

Quark's shuttle could have been repaired (starfleet engineers are famed throughout the quadrant at turning "rocks into replicators" - a reputation a Vorta was aware of), he could have paid for it in legal currency which would show how capitalistic the Federation is, and he could have been on his way.

Consider the cost of the parts involved, why would Starfleet be working for free, sure out n the frontier when helping a lone ship in trouble but would Starfleet really put its engineers to work fixing civilian craft when civilian operators are available?

None of that happened.

Which is completely understandable (although he did buy passage home which you seem to be glossing over).

It is easy for Quark and others to get their own transportation outside the Federation. Quark never bought his own because 1) his cousin Ghala promised him he'd give him one someday (something Quark waited for years to have fulfilled) and 2) Quark has had a string of unsuccessful business ventures which have failed to pull through. He personally may not be able to afford a ship of his own (lets not forget the fact that while he was waiting for Ghala to pull through he was also tending his bar - something which costs him money).

As outlined above ship ownership is rare among Ferengi as well, in fact Galia was an arms dealer, not exactly a legitimate profession (like the Vulcan) and the Grand Nagus's is probably a state shuttle as could be Brunts - hey maybe the Ferengi are communists to or maybe private ship ownership just isn't that wide spread (who wants to have their own shuttle when a giant space dragon is going to eat it).

Why would the cost of 2 one-way transport tickets equal that to a warp capable shuttle that can carry cargo, if the cost for booking passage is cheap and freely available to all? The fact they weren't Federation citizens would probably be a detriment, as Federation citizens would get preferential treatment - especially when you have a society that dislikes the Ferengi. Let's not forget that for some reason Quark felt forced to sell his shuttle for salvage, when it did not appear overtly damaged. If it was "totalled" like you said earlier, then I fully expect Quark et al to be picked up in their escape pods, while his ship actually was nothing more than a debris field.

If the engine fell out of my car but the body work was intact would you say my car was perfectly fine?

Yeah, so what? I went to Hungary when it was still in the Soviet Union, along with my family. It still costed money. What's your point?

Well have we ever seen Starfleet charge?

Wrong. He was charged by Odo at the end of the episode, in fact immediately after they stepped onto the station. You think Odo wouldn't dob him into starfleet the second they put into port

No he would want him in his holding cell.

- particularly since it was their jurisdiction? Can you tell me why he didn't? While you're at it can you tell me why Quark couldn't arrange for repairs on his ship?

Both done above.

Can you also tell me how much Ferengi trade-ins are worth? How about the currency that Quark gained from the selling of it?

Don't be an idiot, can you tell me how much a Can of Slugo Cola is worth on Ferenginar? NO well then that proves...... JACK, please keep the discussion sensible.

Not only did Quark lose his ship in this endeavour, but in the very next episode he was forced along by Sisko to handle trade negotiations with the Karemma ("Starship Mine"). And you think he wasn't charged for the crime of carrying contraband to the Federation capital?

He seemed to think it was impossible to prove and he still thought tat after his imaginary trial on earth. As for being forced into negotiations with the Karemma (I assume you mean Starship Down) he was there as the Ferengi representative he wasn't forced into anything.

The obvious explanation is that Quark got off on a plea bargain arrangement, by being relieved of his vessel and any funds he could acquire from it,

Except we know he wasn't because he acquired funds from its sale, remember he used them to get him and Rom home.

and by serving the Federation in an advisory function which offered no pay

Except he wasn't.

- since his crime was relatively minor, and that he wasn't caught with it (irrelevant anyway, since Odo would tell starfleet that he did possess contraband, and someone would figure that the only way they could return from the past is by using the shit in the technobabble way they did) this seems the likeliest reason.

And yet Quark was still under the impression there was no case even after being found guilty???

Once again you're talking about TOS. Doesn't matter, as there would be no competition if the News Service is monopolised by a single source. Since we see in "Generations" multiple reporters we can assume there were multiple news services. Since we see in TNG and DS9 only one News Service, we can assume there was a grand total of one news service. Since this confirms my assertion that the modes of publication are owned by the state, I'll be accepting your concession right about now.

You don't follow what I'm saying but fair enough.

Yeah, by about 60 odd years. Maybe more. And the October revolution took a month.

Indeed and after that people forgot what it was like before didn't they?

The preparation before it and the fights with the counter-insurgents that followed (and were evidently quashed) would take longer, but the actual revolution would be sudden and quick.

And yet nobody mentions it anymore not even the Ferengi especially when Quark complains about the federation.

You're using Jake's naivette as proof that he's... naive. If he's shocked that the Dominion would censure his reports, what makes you think he wouldn't be shocked that the Federation would do the same? Nevermind the fact he never finds out about how his reports were received.

Because the Dominion is worse than the Federation as was clearly Jakes opinion.

Once again, nice unjustifiable assertion. So it isn't difficult to broadcast over subspace, hmm? Inspite of the fact that the Federation owns and maintains the Subspace Relay network? Inspite of the fact that they station military officers on these relay stations who can redirect or even stop the traffic (remember Aquiel and Rocha on relay station 47 took over the comm traffic from relay station 194, which states this level of control is possible)? To broadcast anything over subspace you need to access the relay station. At any point your message can be effectively redirected or even stopped, and it isn't likely to get far because once it hits the first relay station it passes through starfleet officers, who are undoubtedly trained in their job as communications techs. A flick of a switch (or okudagram) and the message is silenced.

And yet you still haven't proved this happens, lets face it your random assertions have nothing backing them up (again the British government doesn't silence the BBC, nor block mail or phones and so on) the ability to silence those who disprove of the status quo exists in most forms of government to varying degrees but it doesn't get used to crack down on people and you haven't proved it happens in the Federation (and we have evidence that it doesn't happen).

Wow, another unjustifiable assertion. So tell me - why doesn't Sisko open up a Bajoran All-you-can-eat Shrimp Creole restaurant, that's just a stone's throw away from Sisko's resort, where all the tourists of the Federation can come visit and meet the man who lead Federation fleets to victory.

Because he is busy being a god.

What's stopping him? Gee, maybe a little thing called communism. It's supposed to prevent this kind of thing.

And Quark is going to be happy to give up his business and profit when Bajor joins the Federation, as is every other Bajoran - funny he doesn't complain about that? I have a theory it is because they aren't communist - Christ I think I may be onto something here.

So in other words this proves: 1) that certain materials just cannot be replicated (meaning the materials themselves are necessary, the replicator only helps in the process) and 2) raw materials are still needed because replicator technology has it's limits.

Proves the former not the latter.

Concession accepted.

It wasn't offered your interesting view on reality doesn't not change reality.

So they still need matter. Which means they need materials to replicate from. Which means someone somewhere needs to provide that raw material. Concession accepted.

I said no such thing, I simply said that even if you could replicate everything it wouldn't prove my case, I feel no need to distort the truth.

Your desperation is palpable having trouble finding that evidence I asked for? Just be a man and admit you can't find the evidence that proves raw materials are needed.

You seem to conveniently forget that transporters and replicators operated on the principle of matter-energy-matter conversion (at least to ST). So a guy getting transported starts at matter, becomes energy, then rematerialises on the transporter pad.

But we saw Picard rematerilsied from energy alone - no matter, you get it.

If you have some proof bring it otherwise grow the hell up and admit defeat.

Tonight's dinner starts as raw biomass (which has to allow for edible food),

Proof?
.

Raw materials are necessary, as you can't get something from nothing.

Saying it doesn't make it so. Prove it.

Raw materials are obviously available for the replicators to use,

Prove it.

so who provides them?

Already Answered.

Do we hear of a spat between 2 rival production companies over replicator supplies? No.

Have we seen that on ferenginar? on Bajor? in Marquis colonies? The Klingon Empire (two different blood wine breweries).

Your whining isn't distracting me from the fact that you have continually declined to provide evidence on this issue over several posts, put up or shut up.

I don't give a fuck about Boobyprise, and that predates the revolution anyway (and there are companies there and privatisation, so really, what the fuck is your point?).

That matter energy conversion has existed for 200 years and replicators are something new and revolutionary and I don't care what your opinions are about Enterprise it is canon, deal with it.

If automation you have to provide evidence on who produces said automation. Who pays the technicians to maintain the automation? Who pays the facilities production managers?

Mining Corporations (which exist as already shown) as for who pays the people - their employers be it a corporation or be it the Federation directly (ala the government paying school teachers, doctors, policemen, armed forces personnel).

If mining corporations you have to provide evidence that they still operate and are owned and run by the private sector. (The Dytallix Corp is defunct, their mines were abandoned for a long time, so provide another example)

You prove it was defunct, it isn't said in the episode so I wish you luck.

Yeah, so sick people don't need daily treatments of medicine, which the replicator can't provide. They need it, and it can't be provided.

And what proof do we have that these are common diseases? hmm?

Concession accepted.

The scent of desperation is thick in the air.

I'm getting tired of this shit. Let's read what Guinan said:

Yeah you and me both.

(Troi drinks an exotic liquid in Ten Forward)
TROI: It's wonderful. What is it?
GUINAN: A year on the planet Thurasia is four hundred and ninety days long. It rains twice, and only twice. You're drinking Thurasian rain water.
GEORDI: Water? Tastes more like...
TROI: Heaven.
GEORDI: Exactly. Where can I get some more of this?
GUINAN: 'Fraid that's the last of it. Next rainfall in a hundred and sixty three days.

So she can't replicate it, otherwise she'll be able to meet the supply demands right there. If it could be replicated Guinan would be able to go down to the Enterprise's replicating centre and get a new batch of it. She can't, and doesn't even consider it. Hence, it is safe to assume it can't be replicated.

Wrong, a replicated variety wouldn't taste as flavourful (as we often hear), so the real version is unique in taste and cannot be gotten for another 100+ years .

Frankly I don't care they may not be able to replicate it, it doesn't help your case (assuming you had one of cause) but it isn't stated they can't replicate it.

Concession accepted.

You have some drool on your chin.

Which is another way of saying that they've got nothing to say about the Federation finance sector. In all of 12 years (from season 1 of TNG to season 7 of DS9), not one mention of the Federation stock market. Not even a throwaway line, which was all Quark's line amounted to anyway. To say that the Ferengi are greedy capitalist bastards doesn't assist your argument, in fact we can use it as a contrapoint to the communistic Federation.

Did we have that Pre revolution?(although we are told in Voyager the world econmoy has existed in its current state since Enterprise so the revolution seems to never happened at all, guess I might be right)

No we didn't so again it proves nothing.

DATA: The Ferengi are... well, the best description may be "traders."
PICARD: What kind of "traders"?
DATA: A more accurate comparison modern scholars have drawn from Earth history cites the ocean-going "Yankee Traders" of eighteenth and nineteenth century America, sir.
RIKER: From the history of my forebears? "Yankee Traders?"
DATA (nods): Who sail, in this case the galaxy, in search of mercantile and territorial opportunity.
RIKER: And are those scholars saying the Ferengi may not be too different from us?
DATA: Hardly, sir. I believe this analogy refers to the nefarious capitalist manner in which the Ferengi are known to conduct their affairs of commerce.

Except that isn't what they say in the episode and thus your quote is meaningless, Data say they have "the worst quality of capitalists" which is true the Ferengi do he doesn't refer to capitalism as being nefarious - tough luck I am afraid.

LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ... also that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds...
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi are now challenge this hu-man madness...

To the Federation, Ferengi engage in a "nefarious capitalist manner." To the Ferengi, the Federation are destroyers of "legal commerce." Wow, and this so proves the Federation is capitalistic, what with that communistic ideology an' all.[/quote]

The Ferengi consider taxes, good business legislation and workers rights to be abominations of course they are going to think any mildly socialised nation to be limiting free commerce (not to mention their info on the federation is suspect at this point since they only me a member of the federation 30 minutes ago).

Looking through that episode I came across some illuminating facts. At the start it is revealed that Quark was exploiting the Federation restrictive trade laws (another sign of communism) for his own personal profit, cheating both the Karemma and with Sisko getting upset at him.

Rubbish, he invented those restrictive trade laws, the Federation doesn't have them as was damn well clear in Sisko reaction.

The mention of a "Bolian Credit Exchange" is erroneous, as Hanock says to Quark "Let's talk about those Bolian currency fluctuations," which has a completely different meaning. Furthermore, even if there was a "credit exchange" in place, you don't think such things existed in the Soviet Union? I could go with my family to Hungary and $20 AUSD could buy quadruple Hungarian Forint, or more or less depending on the "fluctuation."

The free exchange of currency points away from communism.

As for Tarkalian sheep herders earning income, well hell's bells people could earn an income in the Soviet Union too. Both your examples neglect to prove anything.

It proves the "I don't get paid" stuff we hear isn't true which was the point.

Wow, newsflash dumbass - I wasn't talking about Britain where capital investment was possible, I was talking about the Eastern European nations which were communist,[/quiote]

Good god man you really can't comprehend it can you?

I am talking about Britain and I am raising it as an example of state owned infrastructure under a non communist regime, the fact that this is beyond you is both amusing and frightening.

Yes shithead - because this was allowed in the Soviet-fucking-Union. The countries in it could trade with each other - but only with each other.Once Bajor joins the Federation their legitimate trading partners will be other members of the Federation (nevermind the black market dealings). As for Sisko buying land - that wouldn't be possible unless his clout with the Bajorans wasn't high. Sisko has an element of prestige, from both the Bajoran and Federation, and this opens up the possibility of abuse.

Prove Sisko is doing something he couldn't do otherwise and Bajor can currently trade with everybody they would be better remaining independent UNLESS joining the federation they still have free trade (and not to mention cans till earn profits from their business).

Not to mention that Federation worlds can trade outside of the Federation (as evidence by Starship Dwn as already mentioned) putting a further stake between the USSR and UFP when you try to compare them.

It's heavily left, not merely leaning over a little. It proves Picard considers amassing of wealth for personal gain to be "infantile" - a strong ideological position, despite your opinion to the contrary. And your rebuttal doesn't address the point.

Picard considers it infantile, he considers wealth accumulation for its own sake to be pointless but that hardly proves that he believes people shouldn't be able to

Already rebutted. See above.

No you haven't Kasidy was a liaison to independent contractors working in federation space for the Federation.

Then again Dumbass != You.

Thank you, although I suspect you don't know what != means.

Haha, that's rich coming from the fucker who continually shifts the burden of proof. You believe that the Picard vineyard and the Sisko restaurant are private businesses - yet you haven't offered the proof. I fucking pointed out that we never see examples of capital investment or exportation of goods and services by private companies; the onus is on you to prove otherwise. From the above quote I can see you have failed in this task, therefore concession accepted.

That is some nice tap dancing there but you still failed to back up your claim, you have had enough chances and it is obvious you can't do it, since you don't seem to have the ability to admit defeat I will accept it on your behalf.

Yep, my reading skills are deficient. Obviously you didn't read what I wrote in the quoted statement. Do we see capitalism in the TNG Federation? No. Should we therefore assume it exists, in spite of all evidence to the contrary? No. Fucking concede, dipshit. (and once again, Red Herring on the TOS remark...)

Then the same is true for TOS, it isn't a red herring at all you believe the revolution to have taken place post TOS yet according to your reasoning TOS is communist to (the same applies to TOS as TNG), you are focusing on TNG and making assumptions that you will not apply to TOS virtually everything you have used to point out Federation communism during TNG is true of TOS as well, yet you treat the two differently. I would like to know why and if you cannot prove TOS is capitalist then you either have to place the Revolution before TOS or you have to concede defeat on the issue of federation communism during TNG - choose.

I don't remember Bajor being capitalist. I remember it struggling to regain it's economy after 60+ years of occupation by the Cardassians, and the Federation was there to influence that recovery.

Am I the only person who witnessed Quarks shop, Kasidy working for Bajoran commerce authority and so on? You have reached new depths here, again I have to ask if you have actually watched the show or if you are simply going off Mike's database.

Because he can get involved in the black market that permeates throughout the communist Federation. Seriously, he's cheated the Federation out of money, so why can't he do it again?

Or that black market which is everywhere could just be what it appears to be - legitimate business. If Quark is allowed to operate in exactly the same manner under the communist Federation as he did under Bajor then it becomes clear that the Federation allows free enterprise and thus is about as communist as china is (i.e. not).

However don't let me stop you, keep on digging I'm interested how far you will go to keep up this ridiculous line of reasoning, call it a morbid fascination.

Wow, so in 12 + years of storytelling and in all that time we see and hear nothing to suggest the Federation is capitalist? Concession accepted.

1 example during 7 years of SG1.
0 Examples in 6 Years of Ent-Tos (not to mention the films).
One example missing is hardly enough to make me change my world view, there have been numerous indication that they aren't capitalist, idiots who wish to squirm around it and come up with some fanciful view of the federation which bears no resemblance to the show are welcome to do so but I need not suffer their idiocy in a debate.

Your track record of Red Herrings,

Is it may fault you cannot see obvious links that a child could fathom?

unjustifiable assertions,

Again wrong, I have engaged in some theorising no doubt but at least mine is based upon an extrapolation of the evidence unlike your own.

and shifting the Burden of Proof speak for itself, Darkling.

You make a claim and expect me to disprove it, I think it is you how are shifting the burden of proof.

Not to mention your negligent quotes

I know what I am talking about and I have not been wrong, if you are unfamiliar with the subject matter perhaps you should go and study it and return once you have a clue what you are talking about.

(and in one case, outright getting it wrong - Quark never mentioned the "Bolian Credit Exchange," it was Hanock, and he was talking about "Bolian currency fluctuations")

From the script I read

QUARK
There was a run on the Bolian
Credit Exchange... played havoc
with the markets...

(havoc with the "markets" it seems like the exchange rate of Bolian currency affects stock markets but no doubt these couldn't be federation ones).

I would also point out your were incorrect about "The Neutral Zone" and about "The Last Outpost", this is understandable if you don't have the episode to hand but your apparent lack of charity doesn't exactly inspire it in others.

and references (saying Yates was given back her ship, which I see no evidence for in the episode you cited, and in fact as it turns out she was working for fucking Starfleet, not herself!).

No you idiot she was working for Starfleet then she still has her ship because she is still using it when the Breen attack Earth and she still does cargo runs after she was arrested. The job for Starfleet was a one off as she stated.

You've been proven wrong about communications, transportation, publication and production - all of which are owned by Starfleet and the Federation.

I never disputed comms (as I made clear) and publications I do disagree with your interpretation of the FNS but not actually that it is the only game in town (Like BBC might use Reuters, Vulcan Today would use the FNS), transportation you were wrong about and production is up in the air.

You have failed to provide evidence that privatisation and capital investment takes place in the Federation. Finally you have failed to disprove the theory that the Federation is communist,

Nor have you proven it.

and you haven't bothered posting a counter claim that replaces the old theory.

You have not explained how you think eth federation works either, I have already explained that he Federation is socialised but not prohibiting free Enterprise.

Either start providing real evidence that can't be picked apart,

You mean ignored as I child would ignore their parents by throwing a screaming fit.

offer a new theory that replaces the old,

Outline the old theory.

or concede.

Give me reason to do so.

[Stofsk]

You have failed to provide evidence that privatisation and capital investment takes place in the Federation. Finally you have failed to disprove the theory that the Federation is communist,

Nor have you proven it.

I'm gonna keep this post as succinct as possible.

What makes a society communist? A number of things, but if we are to condense it, here's what we get:

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

When Eddington seized the shipment of industrial-size replicators that were bound to Cardassia, he didn't steal them from a private production corporation - no CEO contacted Sisko and told him he fucked up royally. He stole them from the Federation, and the Federation was giving them to the Cardassians - not selling them; we can infer that the Federation, therefore, owns the means of production.

As for replicators: If they operated on the same principle as transporters - that matter-energy-matter conversion is possible - then the necessity of raw materials is obvious. Since we hear constantly this comparison being made (ie that replicators and transporters are similar technology) and also hear that certain materials cannot be replicated (various types of elements, vaccines and that rain-water alcohol) this should be enough to say raw materials are needed in the replicator's function.

(the funny thing is you decry my lack of proof on the raw materials issue, yet there is no logical way you can replicate materials into something you want unless you have some raw materials in the first place - you can't make something out of nothing. Call me "desperate" if you wish - you still haven't proven the means of production are provided in any other fashion. No evidence for private corporations. No evidence for private production. You deal with that, fucker)

(oh and about "Enterprise" if you reread what I wrote you'd note that I said there is evidence for privatisation in "Enterprise" - you bringing it up was a red herring in the first place, making it irrelevant to the topic of hand. Something else for you to deal with)

A minor concession: we know nothing about the agriculture of the Federation, but since most people prefer to eat from a replicator, and since replicators are provided by the State, it seems likely that both industry and agriculture are owned by the state.

Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

The subspace relay network is completely owned by the Federation government, and is operated and maintained by the Starfleet military, and monitoring it is a simple as operating an okuda-console ("Aquiel" The away team beamed onto the station and the place was alive with other people's communications - until Geordi hit the 'mute' button). Your red herring example of BT is false, if British troops were stationed in all the radio broadcast offices and ready at a single notice to cut a broadcast, you would have a point. Unfortunately, you don't.

Publications are owned by the State. We hear of only one news service, the Federation News Service; no other information services anywhere in the entirety of the Federation. That means that the Federation owns the methods of communication (without guaranteeing privacy), and also controls the information being sent to Federation citizens.

Transportation is mostly in the hands of the state. There are some who have their own freighters and ships, but all the major transportation duties are run by the Federation and Starfleet. We see the Enterprise delivering colonists, and we don't see privately-chartered colonisation efforts. There are private colonies, and not surprisingly they don't belong to the Federation (Ezri Dax's folks colony). Also, the Maquis purchasing ships and equipment doesn't count because they were getting that shit from the black market (the Vulcan girl went to Quark, not to a private corporation which deals with armament production).

Oh yeah, I watched that episode of DS9 "The Sound Of Her Voice" and I didn't hear Yates say her duties were to a independent group of freighter captains. All we hear is that the Defiant escorted a convoy. This isn't surprising in a wartime situation, but it doesn't prove that mass-freight transportation is privatised.

Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

You were under the mistaken belief that being communist means there is no income. This is false, as real life proves (the Hungarian Forint didn't disappear when the Soviets rolled their tanks into my parents's country of birth, nor did the Russian Ruble). When you mention things like "Bolian Credit Exchanges" this doesn't prove the federation is capitalist. It only proves that Federation citizens can exchange Federation credit, not unreasonable under a communist society. People are still paid under communism. The thing is, we never hear of any other currency besides the Federation Credit, which isn't good for paying for things outside the Federation - Gold Pressed Latinum is the standard mark of currency outside the Federation. Do we hear of the Bolian Dollar, or the Betazed dollar? The Vulcan Dollar with a picture of Surak on it? Andorian Dollar? This dollar, that dollar - any dollar? No, we don't. Just the Federation Credit. Which all Federation members can use.

Oh and about Quark cheating Hanock in "Starship Down" - sorry, but those restrictive Federation trade laws were never denied by Sisko to exist. He simply gets cross at Quark for cheating the Karemma and the Federation. Tell me the scene where Sisko denies these laws are part of the Federation. Tell me the scene where Sisko apologises to Hanock about Quark's fabrication, or Quark apologised to Sisko for misrepresenting the Federation's trade laws. You can't - because it doesn't exist. But it's good to know that you can make unjustified assertions about such things, with no proof.

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of the petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

So what can we infer from the above 2 passages? Property is abolished, but not quite. What kind of property is abolished? Why, the kind that you can make money on - the kind where capital has to be invested into said property and makes a return profit. In other words, capitalist property is abolished, simple property is not.

Sisko's house is simple property. It is perfectly acceptable for him to build one under communism. Grandpa Sisko's restaurant and the Picard vineyard is simple property for the sole reason that we don't see investment being made - we don't see money being made. Quark's bar is capital property, and not surprisingly he isn't a Federation citizen.

Wow, newsflash dumbass - I wasn't talking about Britain where capital investment was possible, I was talking about the Eastern European nations which were communist

Good god man you really can't comprehend it can you?

I am talking about Britain and I am raising it as an example of state owned infrastructure under a non communist regime, the fact that this is beyond you is both amusing and frightening.

I can see you cannot comprehend simple english.

1) Your example of Britain is a Red Herring. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You fucking brought it up, not me. You were the one whining about how it proves I'm wrong, only it doesn't because it's irrelevant to the topic.

2) The fact that capital investment (or capitalist property and society) is one of the reasons why Britain was never communist *dum-dum-DUM* Any idiot can infer as much from my statement above, which you quoted from. Oh wait, that means you should've comprehended my meaning. I guess I should dumb my writing down a notch? Ok - Britain was never communist, nor did I say she was, nor was I using Britain as an example for reasons why the Federation in ST is communist.

In other words, belief in any phenomenon is a positive condition which must be justified, ie- the burden of proof falls upon the person claiming the existence of a phenomenon, not the person denying it.

I've provided proof in this post and others to the claim that the Federation is communist. When you claim that something like the Picard vineyard is an example of capitalism in TNG, you have to prove it. Which means the burden is on you, to prove *your* claims (the vineyard is one example, there are others). I never said you had to disprove *my* claims (and I challenge you to quote me on that; I'll concede it you can), just that you had to prove *your* claims.

The red herring is an irrelevant subject, usually introduced in an attempt to drive the argument away from its original subject.

Your track record of Red Herrings

Is it may fault you cannot see obvious links that a child could fathom?

Your bringing up BT, Britain's economic model, SG-1 , TOS, Enterprise - are all examples of Red Herrings. That makes parts of your argument *irrelevant*. So yes, it is your fault that your argument sucks.

unjustifiable assertions

Again wrong, I have engaged in some theorising no doubt but at least mine is based upon an extrapolation of the evidence unlike your own.

Funny that when asked to prove *your* claims you can't do so, because you offer red herrings or make unjustified assumptions whenever I give evidence. Such as the Yates working with private freighter captains - no proof of that whatsoever in the reference you provided (making it an unjustified assumption). Or how about saying that the British gov't could rifle through your mail if it wanted to? - a red herring (an irrelevant statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, therefore constituting a red herring).

I never disputed comms (as I made clear) and publications I do disagree with your interpretation of the FNS but not actually that it is the only game in town (Like BBC might use Reuters, Vulcan Today would use the FNS), transportation you were wrong about and production is up in the air.

Concession accepted on communications.

Publications: you made the *claim* that something called "Vulcan Today" exists and is separate to the Federation News Service. Prove it. (I never heard of Vulcan Today, in any case. Episode? Reference?)

Transportation: I am most definitely *not* wrong about it. Prove to me large-scale privatised transportation exists. Oh wait, you can't do that. I can prove, however, that Starfleet assists in large scale colonisation efforts, and engages in freighter duties on occassion.

Production: It is *not* up in the air. The Federation depends on replicators for production, and replicators are owned by the Federation. Which means that they *own* the means of production. (Someone still has to provide the raw materials, but even if that weren't a problem replicators are still owned by the Federation making them state-owned and operated)

Capital Investment: *You* have to prove to me that it takes place. I *can* prove that it doesn't, because we never see anyone spend money to make money in the Federation.

[TheDarkling]

I'm gonna keep this post as succinct as possible.

What makes a society communist? A number of things, but if we are to condense it, here's what we get:

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

When Eddington seized the shipment of industrial-size replicators that were bound to Cardassia, he didn't steal them from a private production corporation - no CEO contacted Sisko and told him he fucked up royally. He stole them from the Federation, and the Federation was giving them to the Cardassians - not selling them; we can infer that the Federation, therefore, owns the means of production.

That is a guess, the Federation could have bought them from a corporation or they could own their own means of product5ion - this is whether they ban others owning means of production and this is something you have failed to prove.

As for replicators: If they operated on the same principle as transporters - that matter-energy-matter conversion is possible - then the necessity of raw materials is obvious. Since we hear constantly this comparison being made (ie that replicators and transporters are similar technology) and also hear that certain materials cannot be replicated (various types of elements, vaccines and that rain-water alcohol) this should be enough to say raw materials are needed in the replicator's function.

And what of my Picard example? You have constantly failed to address this.

What of the duplication of Riker?

What of the Enterprise Evidence.

You have no addressed these issues nor have you provided evidence of you own, you have nothing and I accept your concession.

(the funny thing is you decry my lack of proof on the raw materials issue, yet there is no logical way you can replicate materials into something you want unless you have some raw materials in the first place - you can't make something out of nothing. Call me "desperate" if you wish - you still haven't proven the means of production are provided in any other fashion. No evidence for private corporations. No evidence for private production. You deal with that, fucker)

I already accepted yuor concession because stating doesn't make something so.

(oh and about "Enterprise" if you reread what I wrote you'd note that I said there is evidence for privatisation in "Enterprise" - you bringing it up was a red herring in the first place, making it irrelevant to the topic of hand. Something else for you to deal with)

It was technology reference I believe and thus relevant but yu may be refering to something else.

A minor concession: we know nothing about the agriculture of the Federation, but since most people prefer to eat from a replicator, and since replicators are provided by the State, it seems likely that both industry and agriculture are owned by the state.

Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

The subspace relay network is completely owned by the Federation government, and is operated and maintained by the Starfleet military, and monitoring it is a simple as operating an okuda-console ("Aquiel" The away team beamed onto the station and the place was alive with other people's communications - until Geordi hit the 'mute' button). Your red herring example of BT is false, if British troops were stationed in all the radio broadcast offices and ready at a single notice to cut a broadcast, you would have a point. Unfortunately, you don't.

Troops are just another kind of government employee, state owned communications prove nothing.

Publications are owned by the State. We hear of only one news service, the Federation News Service; no other information services anywhere in the entirety of the Federation. That means that the Federation owns the methods of communication (without guaranteeing privacy), and also controls the information being sent to Federation citizens.

How do you know they don't guarantee privacy? Aquiel seemed bothered Geordi was reading her prevision "letters" to her sister why would she be bothered if spying was comm. place and she did it every day.

Transportation is mostly in the hands of the state. There are some who have their own freighters and ships, but all the major transportation duties are run by the Federation and Starfleet. We see the Enterprise delivering colonists, and we don't see privately-chartered colonisation efforts.

I gave an example of a private colony ship from DS9, it was from "Paradise" and you have no evidence beyond a few incidents of the Enterprise doing such things.

There are private colonies, and not surprisingly they don't belong to the Federation (Ezri Dax's folks colony). Also, the Maquis purchasing ships and equipment doesn't count because they were getting that shit from the black market (the Vulcan girl went to Quark, not to a private corporation which deals with armament production).

They already owned Federation Freighters (privately operated one would assume since these freighters were being guarded by the Maquis and attacked by the Cardassians, they never attacked official Federation state vessels) and they had bought Federation supply couriers and modified them (these weren't registered as federation craft though and what is more it was carrying medical supplies - obviously the Enterprise isn't the only ship to carry these).

Oh yeah, I watched that episode of DS9 "The Sound Of Her Voice" and I didn't hear Yates say her duties were to a independent group of freighter captains. All we hear is that the Defiant escorted a convoy. This isn't surprising in a wartime situation, but it doesn't prove that mass-freight transportation is privatised.

Kasidy was chosen as liaison because she knows the freighter captains, this implies she knows them because they are private freight runners like her, if they are just Starfleet or state owned cargo runners (you seem to flip flop on the issue, does the Federation have non Starfleet cargo ships or not?) then why choose Kasidy as liaison?

Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

You were under the mistaken belief that being communist means there is no income. This is false, as real life proves (the Hungarian Forint didn't disappear when the Soviets rolled their tanks into my parents's country of birth, nor did the Russian Ruble). When you mention things like "Bolian Credit Exchanges" this doesn't prove the federation is capitalist. It only proves that Federation citizens can exchange Federation credit, not unreasonable under a communist society. People are still paid under communism. The thing is, we never hear of any other currency besides the Federation Credit, which isn't good for paying for things outside the Federation - Gold Pressed Latinum is the standard mark of currency outside the Federation. Do we hear of the Bolian Dollar, or the Betazed dollar? The Vulcan Dollar with a picture of Surak on it? Andorian Dollar? This dollar, that dollar - any dollar? No, we don't. Just the Federation Credit. Which all Federation members can use.

Where did I say income isn't possible within Communism, I only pointed out the business about people in the Federation not getting paid isn't true.

Also when was the last time we heard about the Federation Credit, TOS? which would be pre revolution and thus irrelevant, according to Riker Latinium is usable everywhere which could mean the Federation also uses Latinium (or allows its use along with whatever currency they use) either way Riker’s statement would seem to dispute yours.

Oh and about Quark cheating Hanock in "Starship Down" - sorry, but those restrictive Federation trade laws were never denied by Sisko to exist. He simply gets cross at Quark for cheating the Karemma and the Federation.

He goes "what kind of trade laws" with suspiscion and Hanock mentions a few to which Sisko responds "WHAT?" and looks at Quark, his tone suggested he didn't know anything about these trade laws.

Tell me the scene where Sisko denies these laws are part of the Federation. Tell me the scene where Sisko apologises to Hanock about Quark's fabrication, or Quark apologised to Sisko for misrepresenting the Federation's trade laws. You can't - because it doesn't exist. But it's good to know that you can make unjustified assertions about such things, with no proof.

Watch the scene it becomes rather clear, however you have no proof those same trade laws exist nor that they prove anything about the Federation.

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of the petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

So what can we infer from the above 2 passages? Property is abolished, but not quite. What kind of property is abolished? Why, the kind that you can make money on - the kind where capital has to be invested into said property and makes a return profit. In other words, capitalist property is abolished, simple property is not.

And ships and shops do what to your eyes?

Sisko's house is simple property. It is perfectly acceptable for him to build one under communism.

As was already established

Grandpa Sisko's restaurant and the Picard vineyard is simple property for the sole reason that we don't see investment being made - we don't see money being made.

Which is unsurprising considering how long we see it for, do we also assume eth Klingon restaurant isn't a private enterprise because we don’t see money exchanged?

Quark's bar is capital property, and not surprisingly he isn't a Federation citizen.

And the imminent threat of the Federation coming to take it from him is welcomed with opens arms (and a nice shiny banner no less), that alone tells me that under the Federation he could continue to use his bar to make money.

I can see you cannot comprehend simple english.

1) Your example of Britain is a Red Herring. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You fucking brought it up, not me.

I KNOW I BROUGHT IT UP MORON, I have said so several times, it was to prove that state owned infrastructure is not exclusive to Communism and thus its existence proves nothing - this is the 7th or so time I have said it.

You were the one whining about how it proves I'm wrong, only it doesn't because it's irrelevant to the topic.

No it isn't, I will accept your concession on the issue since it is so far beyond your ability to comprehend.

2) The fact that capital investment (or capitalist property and society) is one of the reasons why Britain was never communist *dum-dum-DUM* Any idiot can infer as much from my statement above, which you quoted from. Oh wait, that means you should've comprehended my meaning. I guess I should dumb my writing down a notch? Ok - Britain was never communist, nor did I say she was, nor was I using Britain as an example for reasons why the Federation in ST is communist.

You.
Are.
An.
Idiot.

My entire point was Britain wasn't communist, if Britain were Communist my point wouldn't work, but alas I have already accepted your concession on the issue (since it is really a statement of fact there is very little to concede but you just can't grasp it).

In other words, belief in any phenomenon is a positive condition which must be justified, ie- the burden of proof falls upon the person claiming the existence of a phenomenon, not the person denying it.

I've provided proof in this post and others to the claim that the Federation is communist. When you claim that something like the Picard vineyard is an example of capitalism in TNG, you have to prove it. Which means the burden is on you, to prove *your* claims (the vineyard is one example, there are others). I never said you had to disprove *my* claims (and I challenge you to quote me on that; I'll concede it you can), just that you had to prove *your* claims.[/quote]

No you must prove it is communist and you have failed to do so, I ahve used examples of private money generating enterprises within the Federation and thus my case is there while you consistently ignore evidence in order to try and make your theory hold up.

Your bringing up BT, Britain's economic model, SG-1 , TOS, Enterprise - are all examples of Red Herrings. That makes parts of your argument *irrelevant*. So yes, it is your fault that your argument sucks.

They were relevant, you cannot connect the dots, so I am sure from your simplistic world view they are Red Herrings just as I am sure discussing the temperature is a red herring when talking about whether it were snow because the link just isn't obvious enough for you.

Funny that when asked to prove *your* claims you can't do so, because you offer red herrings or make unjustified assumptions whenever I give evidence. Such as the Yates working with private freighter captains - no proof of that whatsoever in the reference you provided (making it an unjustified assumption).

Yes there was evidence, but again it flew over you head so I have had to try to hold your hand through the process above but again I doubt I will succeed.

Or how about saying that the British gov't could rifle through your mail if it wanted to? - a red herring (an irrelevant statement that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, therefore constituting a red herring).

Again no it isn't, I pointed out that the ability to access methods of communication does not prove monitoring is occurring, this fact was too difficult to grasp for you so I tried an example but you just can't connect the dots.

Publications: you made the *claim* that something called "Vulcan Today" exists and is separate to the Federation News Service. Prove it. (I never heard of Vulcan Today, in any case. Episode? Reference?)

It was theoretical, admittedly it may not exist I was just saying that my view on the Federation news service was closer to that of Reuters or some such (a news source for news services) but as you say the Federation news service could easily be the only Federation news service.

Transportation: I am most definitely *not* wrong about it. Prove to me large-scale privatised transportation exists. Oh wait, you can't do that. I can prove, however, that Starfleet assists in large scale colonisation efforts, and engages in freighter duties on occassion.

On a few rare occasions and yet we have seen private freighters and private colonisation efforts outside of this, you were wrong I see little point labouring the point further.

Production: It is *not* up in the air. The Federation depends on replicators for production, and replicators are owned by the Federation.

Prove it, show me the operating panel of a industrial replicator, show me the staff inside yadda yadda yadda.

You cannot because of the perspective we have on the show and not everything is produced by replicator so what of these other methods? You cannot prove anything and you damn well know it.

Which means that they *own* the means of production. (Someone still has to provide the raw materials, but even if that weren't a problem replicators are still owned by the Federation making them state-owned and operated)

Prove it and what of the other production methods?

Capital Investment: *You* have to prove to me that it takes place. I *can* prove that it doesn't, because we never see anyone spend money to make money in the Federation.

Quark didn't mind Bajor joining the Federation so obviously private Enterprise is allowed.

I see little point in continuing this discussion, you cannot prove your assertions and I cannot prove mine to you (even though I think the evidence is fairly obvious) so why continue this merry go around of me providing evidence and you finding a loop hole and continuing to repeat the same thing as you have for the last ten posts.

[Stofsk]

That is a guess, the Federation could have bought them from a corporation or they could own their own means of production - this is whether they ban others owning means of production and this is something you have failed to prove.

1st Bolded - unjustified assumption, or give me the name of the corporation?

2nd bolded - that was what I said, and it's one more point in favour of communist Federation.

3rd bolded - since the modes of production are owned by the state and since no production corporations exist, what other logical conclusions can be derived?

And what of my Picard example? You have constantly failed to address this.

What of the duplication of Riker?

Wow, for that to happen Riker had to constitute the Raw Materials I had been harping on. Thanks, I forgot about that episode.

What of the Enterprise Evidence. It was technology reference I believe and thus relevant but yu may be refering to something else.

Automation, mining corporations, back as early as Enterprise they can change one material to another (human waste into boots)

Gee, you said it's proof that replicators work on matter-energy conversion (meaning you take 1 piece of matter and turn it into something else). Concession accepted. And it was a red herring because we were talking about TNG. Oh, and I already told you the revolution took place after TOS, so citing corporations that existed in Archer's day is somewhat irrelevant, wouldn't you say?

Devices derived from transporter technology to dematerialize matter and then reconstitute it in another form.

Replicators, in use since the early 24th century, are most commonly used as food dispensers aboard Federation starships. The menu is only limited by the programming, as opposed to the days of carrying natural or reconstituted foodstuffs with delivery by special turbolifts or transporters.

Generally replicated food and "natural" food taste the same, though some people claim to be able to detect a difference. For instance, Captain Picard kept real caviar stored for special occasions since he felt replicated caviar was inferior to the real thing.

The bolded text states that material has to be available to replicate it into another form. This is the official website talking about the subject. Note that replicators replace the need for crew messes and kitchens, and bulkier supplies. It doesn't say materials aren't needed, just they replace the bulkier supply/logistics demands of old.

You have no addressed these issues nor have you provided evidence of you own, you have nothing and I accept your concession.

Nope. But say it if it makes you feel warm and tingly inside.

I repeat: No evidence for private corporations. No evidence for private production. Plenty of evidence that replicators come from 1 source (the Federation).

Troops are just another kind of government employee, state owned communications prove nothing.

Except that it proves the quote by Karl Marx, that state-owned infrastructure is a factor in communism.

How do you know they don't guarantee privacy? Aquiel seemed bothered Geordi was reading her prevision "letters" to her sister why would she be bothered if spying was comm. place and she did it every day.

Because she's naive? And Geordi was looking through her letters, eh? Interesting mandate, a Starfleet officer can rifle through someone's private letters.

I gave an example of a private colony ship from DS9, it was from "Paradise" and you have no evidence beyond a few incidents of the Enterprise doing such things.

Ok, so I point out numerous events of the Enterprise-D doing this, and you come back with 1 event of your own? My numerous incidents outnumber your one.

Oh by the way, the colony is "Paradise" isn't a Federation member world. Why would Sisko and O'Brien beam down to a planet and be surprised at the humans living there?

Kasidy was chosen as liaison because she knows the freighter captains, this implies she knows them because they are private freight runners like her, if they are just Starfleet or state owned cargo runners (you seem to flip flop on the issue, does the Federation have non Starfleet cargo ships or not?) then why choose Kasidy as liaison?

She knows the freighter captains. That's all. Your implication doesn't have proof to back it up. Sorry, but you originally cited this piece of evidence in favour of independent and privatised freight transportation, neither of which is justified.

As for your quote in parenthesis, the Federation and Starfleet handle transportation, it would seem. Unless there is a private shipping corporation that handles it, what else can one infer from the evidence?

Where did I say income isn't possible within Communism, I only pointed out the business about people in the Federation not getting paid isn't true.

I would also point out in that episode Quark mentions a "Bolian Credit Exchange" seems like a mention of a Federation financial implement and there is also mention of Tarkalian Sheep herders losing income, both these races are thought to be Fed members, so we have 2 minutes of talk about Federation trade and all sorts of capitalist things begin to appear

You said that both the "Bolian Credit Exchange" and "Tarkalian Sheep herders losing income" are examples of "capitalist things" only they're not and that was my point.

Also when was the last time we heard about the Federation Credit, TOS? which would be pre revolution and thus irrelevant, according to Riker Latinium is usable everywhere which could mean the Federation also uses Latinium (or allows its use along with whatever currency they use) either way Riker?s statement would seem to dispute yours.

Nope. No more than saying the existence of the US Dollar would dispute the fact that in Russia the common joe would use the Ruble.

He goes "what kind of trade laws" with suspiscion and Hanock mentions a few to which Sisko responds "WHAT?" and looks at Quark, his tone suggested he didn't know anything about these trade laws.

His query wasn't suspicious, he seemed to think that the Karemma had concerns with his nation's trade laws - which Hanock said a second before in the scene. His tone when yelling at Quark suggests he is pissed off at Quark. Understandable - Quark was cheating both parties. What he doesn't do is outright say these laws were a fabrication on Quark's part. He doesn't deny this is Federation trade regulation. He just gets pissed off at Quark, and the simplest explanation is because Quark was cheating both parties out of profit.

Watch the scene it becomes rather clear, however you have no proof those same trade laws exist nor that they prove anything about the Federation.

Sisko doesn't deny it. If he came out and said "Sorry - we don't conduct trade in this way, let's hammer out a new agreement which takes into account existing Federation law" then yes, it would prove you right. But he doesn't. No denial. Just a moment of anger at Quark, which was understandable.

And ships and shops do what to your eyes?

Except that Grandpa Sisko and the Picard vineyard doesn't seem to be getting profits - nobody orders for the bill, no-one orders for a crate of Picard brand. So if they're not in it for the money they can't be capital property, can they?

Which is unsurprising considering how long we see it for, do we also assume the Klingon restaurant isn't a private enterprise because we don?t see money exchanged?

Do we assume it because we don't see it happening? Is this even relevant to the discussion? The Klingon restaurant is located in the Bajoran system, which is outside the Federation (I presume you're talking about the one on DS9?)

And the imminent threat of the Federation coming to take it from him is welcomed with opens arms (and a nice shiny banner no less), that alone tells me that under the Federation he could continue to use his bar to make money.

Then kindly provide proof of that. And remember, Quark was already cheating the Federation out of it's profits all throughout the Karemma trade dispute. Him making money - due to lying, cheating and outright stealing - is an example of illegitimate business, which Quark would excel at.

Of course the possibility remains that Quark was really shaking in his boots but wanted to put on a brave front.

You.
Are.
An.
Idiot.

My entire point was Britain wasn't communist, if Britain were Communist my point wouldn't work, but alas I have already accepted your concession on the issue (since it is really a statement of fact there is very little to concede but you just can't grasp it).

You introduced the example of Britain to disprove the notion that state-owned infrastructure is a confirmation of Communism, when I said it was a factor of Communism - the other factor is no capital investment, which I pointed out to you still took place in Britain (which meant that it wasn't communist - something I said from DAY FUCKING ONE OF THIS POINTLESS RED HERRING. The fact that it was a Red Herring seems to completely fly over your head.

Your bringing up BT, Britain's economic model, SG-1 , TOS, Enterprise - are all examples of Red Herrings. That makes parts of your argument *irrelevant*. So yes, it is your fault that your argument sucks.

They were relevant, you cannot connect the dots, so I am sure from your simplistic world view they are Red Herrings just as I am sure discussing the temperature is a red herring when talking about whether it were snow because the link just isn't obvious enough for you.

Our discussion was centred around TNG and DS9 era Federation. You introduced examples of TOS and ENT era to prove an argument about a different show and setting. You introduced examples of SG-1, a completely different show and setting. You cited BT and Britain as examples of how *some* of the factors inherent to communism can exist in a capitalist country, a fact I never disputed nor did it have any bearing on my argument. Finally, all these examples are irrelevant. Therefore, they're Red Herrings.

Again no it isn't, I pointed out that the ability to access methods of communication does not prove monitoring is occurring, this fact was too difficult to grasp for you so I tried an example but you just can't connect the dots.

Except that ownership of communication proves that the State controls communication. Monitoring can take place, and you can redirect and halt a transmission at any point along the Relay network. The fact you cannot grasp this simply understanding of the facts is not my problem.

On a few rare occasions and yet we have seen private freighters and private colonisation efforts outside of this, you were wrong I see little point labouring the point further.

Are these the same colonies that don't belong in the Federation - like the one from "Paradise" or Ezri Dax's colony?

Prove it, show me the operating panel of a industrial replicator, show me the staff inside yadda yadda yadda.

You cannot because of the perspective we have on the show and not everything is produced by replicator so what of these other methods? You cannot prove anything and you damn well know it.

So the Federation gives Cardassia a dozen industrial replicators, and you think this doesn't prove their ownership of production? You cite that the Federation "probably bought them from a corporation" yet you can't offer proof of that, either.

Prove it and what of the other production methods?

What other production methods? You mean the ones owned by corporations that sell things to the government? By all means, show me where that happens.

Quark didn't mind Bajor joining the Federation so obviously private Enterprise is allowed.

Quark is a cheater and can make money through illegitimate means as well as good business - and he did make money off the Federation by cheating them ("Starship Down").

I see little point in continuing this discussion.

Yeah, I was starting to feel the same thing. If it helps you any, you did give me some restless nights.

[TheDarkling]

We will agree to disagree then, as for sleepless nights it is 6:40 AM here and I have an exam in 9 hours - you monster you have ruined me

[Stofsk]

We will agree to disagree then, as for sleepless nights it is 6:40 AM here and I have an exam in 9 hours - you monster you have ruined me

It's my Hungarian blood and Aussie stubborness - it makes me pigheaded sometimes.