GCS vs. 23rd century UFP

[Kamakazie Sith]

WRONG! Those were two seperate volleys. with regards to the Nacelle, the first torpedo smashed through, and the second blew it off it's mount. IT WAS HIT TWICE. As was the torpedo pod. the first hit shreadded it, the second blew it off. go watch the movie.

I own the DVD. I just checked. It happened as Kamakazie Sith described.

It is you who needs to watch the movie again.

i will, because i explicitly remember the nacelle being hit twice

It was hit twice. Once by a phaser strike which was then followed by a photon torpedo.

[Ender]

Wasn't it recently determined that an old style BOP would go down to a 12 KT shot? That coupled with the numbers we already have points to TNG being quite a bit better.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Wasn't it recently determined that an old style BOP would go down to a 12 KT shot? That coupled with the numbers we already have points to TNG being quite a bit better.

What was used to determine that?

[Ender]

Wasn't it recently determined that an old style BOP would go down to a 12 KT shot? That coupled with the numbers we already have points to TNG being quite a bit better.

What was used to determine that?

It was something like maximum possible yield of a phaser if we assumed it was straight energy and not NDF. Let me hunt for the thread

[Master of Ossus]

Wasn't there a VOY episode in which a 50 year old BoP did substantial damage to Voyager? That would seem to indicate that there has been an increase in weapons efficiency, but not a huge one. If that's the case, I would estimate that the old UFP would have to muster a fleet of 20 or 25 starships to bring down a war GCS. That would be VERY difficult for them to do, given the consistently small fleet numbers we saw in TOS and the movies.

[Knife]

i will not dispute your number of photons used, but i feel the manner in which they were employed may be quite useful in determining their apparant yield. The (2 or 3) torps that hit the nacelle assembly and the (2) torps that hit the photon launcher were quite obviously bare hull hits. They did not detonate until they phsically came in contact with the Reliant, and we know through dialouge that shields were completely useless in the Mutara nebula. So that is at least 4 (or possibly 5) direct torpedo hits on the USS Reliant. There also appeared to be secondary explosions in the Reliants torpedo pod which suggest that it may have been loaded and ready to fire. That theory is however suspect and up for scrutiny, so feel free to pick away at it. What does this tell us? 4 or 5 torpedos from an upgraded Constitution class starship were not enough to destroy an unshielded Miranda class starship, even with 2 (or 3) direct hits to the warp drive. 1 direct torpedo hit from a Galaxy Class starship has enough power to destroy an unshileded Miranda-class variant (possibly a result of hitting the warp drive) Therefore the one torpedo fired by the E-D > One torpedo fired by the E-nil

Observation. In two instances that we see torpedoes striking a unshielded hull in TOS movies, the torpedoes actually penetrate and continue through the superstructure and in one case it goes all the way through the hull. Ref: STII WoK and ST VI TUC. Hell, IIRC, one torpedo actually skips off the dorsal hull of the Relient in WoK.

Could it be that TOS torpedoes have some sort of either safty feature that doesn't activate the warhead until a preset range; ala modern day torpedo's. Thus the Ent and the Relient were shooting iron bombs at each other, or...

SF torpedo's in the TOS era, are designed primarily to detonate against enemy shields so in the semi-rare instances that they actually get a hull shot the warhead trigger has problems tripping with the impact of the hull?

[Sarevok]

Wasn't there a VOY episode in which a 50 year old BoP did substantial damage to Voyager? That would seem to indicate that there has been an increase in weapons efficiency, but not a huge one. If that's the case, I would estimate that the old UFP would have to muster a fleet of 20 or 25 starships to bring down a war GCS. That would be VERY difficult for them to do, given the consistently small fleet numbers we saw in TOS and the movies.

Actualy it was 100 year old battlecruiser. As for the BoP there was one TNG episode where an ancient BoP run by 7 Ferengi succesfuly captured the Enterprise-D.

[Uraniun235]

I thought those were two K'Vort class BOPs.

Hell, IIRC, one torpedo actually skips off the dorsal hull of the Relient in WoK.

Nope. I think something similar happens during the TUC battle, but the E-A's shields were still up at the time.

[Col. Crackpot]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Observation. In two instances that we see torpedoes striking a unshielded hull in TOS movies, the torpedoes actually penetrate and continue through the superstructure and in one case it goes all the way through the hull. Ref: STII WoK and ST VI TUC. Hell, IIRC, one torpedo actually skips off the dorsal hull of the Relient in WoK.

The torpedo skipped off the E-A hull in TUC. No, torpedo ever skipped off the Reliants hull.

[Col. Crackpot]

ok, so i'm not going crazy, there were two hits on the nacelle, but one was a phaser strike.

[Ender]

Ok, I was wrong about that thread, its that a BOP can resist 2 KT with no problems

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... eb6fd0eff9

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok, I was wrong about that thread, its that a BOP can resist 2 KT with no problems

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... eb6fd0eff9

That BoP was unshielded, IIRC.

It's kind of amusing that I was involved in that thread and had absolutely no idea to what you were talking about.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Wasn't there a VOY episode in which a 50 year old BoP did substantial damage to Voyager? That would seem to indicate that there has been an increase in weapons efficiency, but not a huge one. If that's the case, I would estimate that the old UFP would have to muster a fleet of 20 or 25 starships to bring down a war GCS. That would be VERY difficult for them to do, given the consistently small fleet numbers we saw in TOS and the movies.

Actualy it was 100 year old battlecruiser. As for the BoP there was one TNG episode where an ancient BoP run by 7 Ferengi succesfuly captured the Enterprise-D.

Actually less that 100 years...unless they said something more in the episode later on.

The quote is;

Tuvok: The ?? readings indicate that it is a D7 class cruiser.

Paris: D7? They were retired decades ago.

[Ted C]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

TNG shields are also physically distance from the hull by several meters or more, while TOS shields are hull-tight. That could easily account for the difference you're seeing.

[Col. Crackpot]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

TNG shields are also physically distance from the hull by several meters or more, while TOS shields are hull-tight. That could easily account for the difference you're seeing.

the shield indicator display on the Reliant in TWOK also supports the arguement regarding hull-hugging shields in the TOS era. the ring of lights on the display indicating shield staus conformed to the shape of the ship.

[Uraniun235]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

TNG ships start to take systems damage before the shields are dropped also. Not console fireworks, but systems damage. (Maybe TNG ships have scorch-resistant paint. )

[Col. Crackpot]

TNG ships start to take systems damage before the shields are dropped also. Not console fireworks, but systems damage. (Maybe TNG ships have scorch-resistant paint. )

well at least they improved something!

[Knife]

Observation. In two instances that we see torpedoes striking a unshielded hull in TOS movies, the torpedoes actually penetrate and continue through the superstructure and in one case it goes all the way through the hull. Ref: STII WoK and ST VI TUC. Hell, IIRC, one torpedo actually skips off the dorsal hull of the Relient in WoK.

The torpedo skipped off the E-A hull in TUC. No, torpedo ever skipped off the Reliants hull.

My bad, I knew I saw it somewhere. Still though, I think the major improvment of TNG torpedoes over TOS torps is not yeild, though I'm sure it went up a little, (How much more I don't know but the torp case is the same so its the same volume for the gear and warhead) but rather a better proximity fuse.

[Col. Crackpot]

My bad, I knew I saw it somewhere. Still though, I think the major improvment of TNG torpedoes over TOS torps is not yeild, though I'm sure it went up a little, (How much more I don't know but the torp case is the same so its the same volume for the gear and warhead) but rather a better proximity fuse.

Rate of fire increased dramaticly as well. One burst fire tube can spew 4 torps in rapid succession. One tube on a connie can fire one torp at a time.

[Uraniun235]

Incorrect on both counts. One movie-era tube can burst-fire at least two torpedos, as seen in ST3. The GCS tube can burst-fire at least six torpedos in rapid succession as seen in TNG Survivors.

[Iceberg]

That can't be happy.

[Xon]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

But TNG ships take system critical damage even with shields at full power, which causes critical lose of key systems and death to misc crewmen.

Were as TOS ships get a bit a scorching on the hull with full shields.

There is a heck of a difference.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The battle at camp kitthomer in TUC tells us a bit about the Ent-A's shields, and consequently late TOS era shields. Even with the shields fully raised damage in the form of scorch marks appear on the hull. That tells us that even at full power a significant potion of a torpedo's yield penetrates the shields. This is not so in TNG. Almost no visible damage is done to the hull when raised shields enconter a torpedo strike. Granted there are overloads and shorts and whatnot, but no scorching on the hull.

But TNG ships take system critical damage even with shields at full power, which causes critical lose of key systems and death to misc crewmen.

Were as TOS ships get a bit a scorching on the hull with full shields.

There is a heck of a difference.

What episode did that happen in?

[Alyeska]

TNG ships rarely suffered any damage when their shields were up. What we actualy have is an example of the difference between spherical shields and hull hugging shields. Spherical shields appear to provide better protection but at the expense of endurance. Hull hugging shields provide longer endurance but allow damage to seep through. Regenerative shields are the first hull hugging shields that provide near absolute protection like spherical shields while still keeping the endurance.