Blockading Klingon space (TNG Redemption)

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Post by Gil Hamilton »

SirNitram wrote:If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?
What the hell are you talking about? I've already answered everyone who actually attempted to answer the original question, and the rest of you haven't even tried to make a point, just bitch and flame.

What I was commenting on above was that you fuckers are trying to bust my balls over asking a question which I just found out that Mike asked before, yet you'd never dare to give him the same shit, because the lot of you are rammed up his asscrack.
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Post by SirNitram »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?
What the hell are you talking about? I've already answered everyone who actually attempted to answer the original question, and the rest of you haven't even tried to make a point, just bitch and flame.


Funny, it seems to the rest of us we've been shovelling reasons why they might not have been able to go around at you, and you just dismiss them out of hand. Oh well.
What I was commenting on above was that you fuckers are trying to bust my balls over asking a question which I just found out that Mike asked before, yet you'd never dare to give him the same shit, because the lot of you are rammed up his asscrack.
If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

SirNitram wrote:Funny, it seems to the rest of us we've been shovelling reasons why they might not have been able to go around at you, and you just dismiss them out of hand. Oh well.
Of course I dismissed them out of hand. None of them made any sense. Besides, you never once suggested a reason why they couldn't fly around the blockade, you were more about being a whiny little asshole because I dared ask "why?" and seem to be uncapable of wrapping your brain about the scale of the problem.
If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?
What I've said has totally gone over your head, hasn't it? Let me guess, literacy isn't your strong point? I never said that anyone was shitting on him. What I did say is that me and Mike seperately came to the same conclusion and both mused on why didn't Romulans just fly around the pathetic little blockade. Yet not one of you would dare say the same shit to him that you have to me. Get it now?
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Post by Alyeska »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
SirNitram wrote:If you can't find a way to rebutt, claim everyone is kissing Mike's ass one minute and shitting on him the next. Is that you, Robert?
What the hell are you talking about? I've already answered everyone who actually attempted to answer the original question, and the rest of you haven't even tried to make a point, just bitch and flame.

What I was commenting on above was that you fuckers are trying to bust my balls over asking a question which I just found out that Mike asked before, yet you'd never dare to give him the same shit, because the lot of you are rammed up his asscrack.
Piss off Gil. We don't have to prove shit. The episode proves itself. You on the other hand have to prove there is nothing blocking the Romulan ships. Problem is we know they are capable of fast FTL flight and they didn't use it. Hence logic tells us something was preventing them.

This means you have no ground to stand on Gil.

There is a reason why we are mocking you and calling you the dumbest fucking idiot we've met in this thread.
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Post by Alyeska »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Of course I dismissed them out of hand. None of them made any sense. Besides, you never once suggested a reason why they couldn't fly around the blockade, you were more about being a whiny little asshole because I dared ask "why?" and seem to be uncapable of wrapping your brain about the scale of the problem.
Stop the innocent routine. You are rejecting canon fact.
What I've said has totally gone over your head, hasn't it? Let me guess, literacy isn't your strong point? I never said that anyone was shitting on him. What I did say is that me and Mike seperately came to the same conclusion and both mused on why didn't Romulans just fly around the pathetic little blockade. Yet not one of you would dare say the same shit to him that you have to me. Get it now?
Whinney little bitch can't stand the fact that he's being singled out for making an idiotic claim. You know, very few of us have read all of Mikes pages. I didn't even know Mike caim to this conclussion until 5 minutes ago. Another funny thing. Mike has yet to be confronted on the issue. You have, and you refuse to concede a point you've already lost. That is the difference between you and Mike. So enough with the bullshit Red Herrings.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Of course I dismissed them out of hand. None of them made any sense.
Why does the possibility that the Romulan fleet taking a lightly patrolled or monitored route not make any sense?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Gil Hamilton wrote:What I've said has totally gone over your head, hasn't it? Let me guess, literacy isn't your strong point? I never said that anyone was shitting on him. What I did say is that me and Mike seperately came to the same conclusion and both mused on why didn't Romulans just fly around the pathetic little blockade. Yet not one of you would dare say the same shit to him that you have to me. Get it now?
OK, this is Thanksgiving Weekend in Canada, and I've been busy with family matters, so I haven't been able to comment on this. But don't try to throw my name around without having me comment sooner or later, especially if you're going to bullshit about what I said. Let's review the content of my Canon Database, shall we?
My Canon Database wrote:Propulsion: the Romulans don't have the speed to simply circumvent a blockade of 23 ships in time to bring the needed supplies to the Duras' forces before they lose the war.

Even if each ship is a light year away from its nearest neighbour, a fleet of 23 ships could only cover an area five or six light years across. It goes without saying that an Imperial vessel could fly around such a small blockade without breaking a sweat.
And the second reference to this event:
Size and Scope: Geordi acknowledges that the size of the blockade isn't as big as he would like, but it's obviously big enough to provide the delay they need, since the Romulans never even attempted to fly around it.
As you can see, I never claimed that the Romulans must be capable of flying around this blockade. Quite the contrary; I pointed out that they obviously could not for some reason, which is exactly the same thing everyone else is saying. Surely you didn't think that I meant a Romulan vessel must be capable of bypassing this blockade when I said "Imperial vessel", did you?

Do not put words in my mouth in your futile effort to save face, Gil. If you're losing an argument, it costs you less to admit it and move on than to keep tilting at windmills.

PS. If nothing else, at least this thread has served to introduce some interesting speculation on the exact reasons why they could not do this. That is a positive contribution, but you're not accomplishing anything with your obstinacy.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Hey, Gil, I like how you conveniently ignored my theory that Klingon sensor outposts in the region (what, you think they're going to leave that border utterly undefended?) might make it impractical for Romulan ships to move at high warp, as well as the possibility of said sensor outposts or perhaps the "terrain" of the space in the area making any route but the one intersecting the Federation blockade impractical.

Sure, it's not explicitly endorsed by canon facts, but at least they've got some basis. Can't you spare just a few moments to read->comprehend->post before cut-and-pasting your "why can't they just fly around?" argument? I think there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere...

As for the officer shortfall, I don't see why Starfleet would need to keep full officer and crew compliments around for ships they weren't intending to fly for some weeks.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Uraniun235 wrote:Hey, Gil, I like how you conveniently ignored my theory that Klingon sensor outposts in the region (what, you think they're going to leave that border utterly undefended?) might make it impractical for Romulan ships to move at high warp, as well as the possibility of said sensor outposts or perhaps the "terrain" of the space in the area making any route but the one intersecting the Federation blockade impractical.
How could the sensor outposts detect them? Not one but two characters asked the Captain "You've found some way to defeat the Romulan cloak?" Those two being Sela and the Admiral who gave Picards silly blockade the thumbs up. Sela, who at this point had been crossing the border with impunity and even turned up in the Klingon capital at the Duras residence during Redemption part 1. This means up to this point, no one has been able to successful detect the current model of Romulan cloaking device, since the sensors that are bound to surround the Klingon homeworld must have failed to detect her ship.

As for "terrain in space", I direct you to an astronomy book. Look up what "hard vacuum" entails and then look about how far stars are apart and what a huge volume that is. Interstellar space is a whole colossal fucking lot of empty nothing with a particle that failed to be captured into a forming starsystem every few meters. It cannot have terrain, because it is as close to nothing as you can get, and far closer to nothing than we can create in a lab. Likewise, it cannot have routes, because it's largely homogenous, meaning one patch of nothing is functionally identical to another patch of nothing.
Sure, it's not explicitly endorsed by canon facts, but at least they've got some basis. Can't you spare just a few moments to read->comprehend->post before cut-and-pasting your "why can't they just fly around?" argument? I think there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere...
My position is based on knowledge of astronomy and common sense. I know that space is really fucking big and that I know that 200 million kilometers is relatively tiny compared the vastness of space. I also know that any group that can travel faster than the speed of light in ships can literally move around a blockade of that size, because I know that even if they were limited to the speed of light, light travels at 300,000 km/s, and therefore going around such a barrier wouldn't take more than a few dozen minutes of their time. I also know that space isn't filled with the crystal walls that people in the dark ages thought it was, and hard vacuum is as far from a barrier that you can get. Taking this all together, common sense would tell me that they shouldn't have any trouble flying around the blockade. This makes sense to me and in fact when I laid out the problem for a friend, the first words that came out of her mouth were literally "Why didn't they just fly around it?" meaning that flying around made sense to her as well, indicating that something is not inherently wrong with my understanding unless both of us are crazy (the second phrase out of her mouth was "Well, it's a TV show, and they wouldn't have a plot if the characters weren't completely stupid", but I know you people think that discussing the writers is worse than basing an argument on science and common sense).
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Post by SirNitram »

Congratulations, Gil. You have demonstrated to be the proud owner of a Wall Of Ignorance. Would pointing out yet again that the episode clearly shows they could not bypass it do anything but bounce off that skull of yours?
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gil Hamilton wrote: How could the sensor outposts detect them? Not one but two characters asked the Captain "You've found some way to defeat the Romulan cloak?" Those two being Sela and the Admiral who gave Picards silly blockade the thumbs up. Sela, who at this point had been crossing the border with impunity and even turned up in the Klingon capital at the Duras residence during Redemption part 1. This means up to this point, no one has been able to successful detect the current model of Romulan cloaking device, since the sensors that are bound to surround the Klingon homeworld must have failed to detect her ship.
Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote: How could the sensor outposts detect them? Not one but two characters asked the Captain "You've found some way to defeat the Romulan cloak?" Those two being Sela and the Admiral who gave Picards silly blockade the thumbs up. Sela, who at this point had been crossing the border with impunity and even turned up in the Klingon capital at the Duras residence during Redemption part 1. This means up to this point, no one has been able to successful detect the current model of Romulan cloaking device, since the sensors that are bound to surround the Klingon homeworld must have failed to detect her ship.
Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
That seems like a reasonable option. This may explain why the blockade worked because it was positioned at the only place in the Klingon Frontier that was open to them without being detected. Remember if their aid is detected than the Duros immiediatly lose most of their supporters because of the large mistrust of the Romulons that the Klingons have and that it excatally what happened when the ships were discovered. It explains why the Romulons didn't bother keep going after their discovery. Truefully they were far enough through the blockade to make it before they could be intercepted and unless the Sutherland is much more powerful than the Enterprise it would not have served as much of a hinderence to their progress.
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Post by Death from the Sea »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
plus it jives with the episode "Face of the Enemy", which by the way Gil I highly suggest you go back and watch. It specifically talks about detection grids and such in that episode.( and how they can detect even a cloaked Romulan warbird)
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Post by Uraniun235 »

How could the sensor outposts detect them?
If they couldn't, why would there be any in the first place? We know that UFP maintained a series of outposts along it's border. And we know that there must be some giveaway to the cloak, otherwise Geordi wouldn't have bothered saying the Scimitar's cloak in Nemesis is "perfect".

It's my contention that Federation/Klingon science at that time has failed to produce sensors that can detect Romulan cloaks that can be practically carried aboard starships, but can be mounted on fixed installations.

This would make sense in that a sensor array would have to be looking for very minute changes in the space around it, changes relative to the state of that space moments before. While a starship would not have such an intimate knowledge of the surrounding space (nor may even have the sensor capabilities to detect such minute changes), and would probably not have the time to sit on the border long enough to make such scans feasible, a fixed installation can just sit there for years or decades, building a map of the surrounding space so thorough that nearly any detectable change can be noticed and analyzed to determine if it's anomalous or simply a naturally occurring space phenomenon.

Of course, you would want some overlap with other outposts, ideally a full overlap so that even if an outpost is destroyed, the space it occupies will not go unscanned.

The Duras may have only been able to take over one outpost, and it could be that scans from the rest of the outposts made the journey hazardous enough for the Romulans, restricting them to a narrow corridor where the scans would be least powerful. Furthermore, travelling at high warp speeds may present a greater danger of exposure to the sensor outposts.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
But the fact that they can detect that a small hole in the border has been made would mean that the blockade would be unnecessary, since that's enough evidence right there combined with war supplies that were destroyed mysteriously being replaced to make a case the other Klingons that the Duras' have been getting aid from Romulus. Besides, that is something that Picard would have mentioned in his plan.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Death from the Sea wrote:plus it jives with the episode "Face of the Enemy", which by the way Gil I highly suggest you go back and watch. It specifically talks about detection grids and such in that episode.( and how they can detect even a cloaked Romulan warbird)
Face of the Enemy happened after these events. But we know at this point, because the Admiral clearly questions the blockade based on this, that they know of no way to defeat the Romulan cloaking device until Geordi cooked up the tachyon web (which the network on the Federation border could have been based upon). Why would she ask if Picard found a way to defeat the Romulan cloak if they already knew how to defeat it?
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Post by j1j2j3 »

I think Gil knows perfectly well that the show implies that flying around the blockade was impossible, he is just saying that the premise is stupid.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

j1j2j3 wrote:I think Gil knows perfectly well that the show implies that flying around the blockade was impossible, he is just saying that the premise is stupid.
*shhhhh!* Let them figure that out on their own.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
But the fact that they can detect that a small hole in the border has been made would mean that the blockade would be unnecessary, since that's enough evidence right there combined with war supplies that were destroyed mysteriously being replaced to make a case the other Klingons that the Duras' have been getting aid from Romulus. Besides, that is something that Picard would have mentioned in his plan.
Who says the stations are inactive? What if the crew being loyal to the Duras simply allowed them to pass. There are endless possibilities for why they did not go around.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

j1j2j3 wrote:I think Gil knows perfectly well that the show implies that flying around the blockade was impossible, he is just saying that the premise is stupid.
Sure if you don't allow yourself to think why they couldn't go around.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Death from the Sea wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Or it means that the Romulans are allies with the Duras family, and the Duras could only open a small hole in the border defenses for whatever reason.
plus it jives with the episode "Face of the Enemy", which by the way Gil I highly suggest you go back and watch. It specifically talks about detection grids and such in that episode.( and how they can detect even a cloaked Romulan warbird)
The detections grids were exactly the same thing Geordi came up with, so they are based off of his design.
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Post by Mad »

Gil Hamilton wrote:As for "terrain in space", I direct you to an astronomy book.
What about subspace, which is required for warp? Subspace isn't as predictable as normal space is. In fact, some areas of subspace have been damaged from warp drive systems or even completely wiped out from playing around with omega molecules.
Likewise, it cannot have routes, because it's largely homogenous, meaning one patch of nothing is functionally identical to another patch of nothing.
Unless areas of damaged or destroyed subspace prevent warp travel in the area. And it's specifically stated in at least two episodes that ships cannot travel in warp through those destroyed areas. (So it's a canon reason for being completely unable to travel FTL through a certain area; such a possibility cannot be simply dismissed.)
My position is based on knowledge of astronomy and common sense. I know that space is really fucking big and that I know that 200 million kilometers is relatively tiny compared the vastness of space.

<snip>

Taking this all together, common sense would tell me that they shouldn't have any trouble flying around the blockade.
Well, then, let me ask you this: why didn't they?

There are only two basic answers: 1) They were too stupid to realize that they could. 2) They couldn't for some unknown reason.

Which makes more sense to you? That nobody on either side, despite having countless years of experience in space travel between everyone involved even thought it was possible to go around? Or that there was some outside factor that made going around unfeasable?

There are other possible reasons besides strange areas of subspace, and those have been mentioned also. Pretty much none of the reasons stated require everyone involved in both fleets to be incompetent morons, so they're all better than the "they're stupid" option.

Or is "they're stupid" really the reason you're pushing for?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Who says the stations are inactive? What if the crew being loyal to the Duras simply allowed them to pass. There are endless possibilities for why they did not go around.
See, but that amounts to the same thing as them opening a hole. If Picard and gang already have the evidence that the Duras' are letting Romulans through at that point, which would be required knowledge if they were going to blockade that specific point, they don't need to blockade it, they can simply present it to the Klingons, and the Duras' would lose support.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Who says the stations are inactive? What if the crew being loyal to the Duras simply allowed them to pass. There are endless possibilities for why they did not go around.
See, but that amounts to the same thing as them opening a hole. If Picard and gang already have the evidence that the Duras' are letting Romulans through at that point, which would be required knowledge if they were going to blockade that specific point, they don't need to blockade it, they can simply present it to the Klingons, and the Duras' would lose support.
They don't have the evidence though. They have a hunch, and that's why they wanted to catch the Romulans red handed.
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Post by Admiral_K »


This leads to one of two possible conclusions: Trek ships are either forced to follow optimised "space lane" courses and cannot outrun a group of vessels on an intercept vector at warp, or they are forced for one reason or another at periodic intervals to drop out of warp and run at impulse for parts of their transit —the latter possibility making interception by blockade ships much easier.
That might also explain why they encounter ships "at random" in the vastness of space all the time.

But that theory also contradicts alot of other things like the fact that they seem to go to warp whenever they want... Which if your theory were accurate, would not be possible.
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