Klingons: What's with 'em?

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seanrobertson
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Post by seanrobertson »

seanrobertson wrote: Bah. I'll try to get that post ready by tomorrow.
Psh. Yeah, right. Promises, promises, Seany-Poo! ;)

Rather than proceed with what would be that long-winded post, one which would no doubt be a complete intellectual train-wreck, I figured I'd just see what everyone made of these snippets from DS9's "Once More Unto the Breach":


MARTOK (Cont'd)
Kor's family descends from the
Imperial Court itself. Kor is
"of the blood" -- born to rule by
the divine will of Kahless!



Martok hates Kor, yet acknowledges Kor was born to rule?

Moreover, if we operated from the conclusion that Kor's a former smoothie, how could he be "born to rule by Kahless' divine will", yet he and his ilk were overthrown and possibly massacred?

That sounds very strange to me.

What's more, Kor identifies his own noble blood with that of a lumpy-head, pal Worf:


KOR
Worf, you've been living among
this democratic rabble for too
long. I know your bloodline --
we both come from noble Houses.
Among our people that still
counts for something. If Martok
is a true Klingon, he should
appreciate that.



While it is possible that two different races could both consider their bloodlines comparably "noble" among Klingon houses, that doesn't seem to fit during DS9, when the Klingon culture is clearly dominated by a single race.

Over the past day or two, I've tried to come up with something historically analogous, but I'm running on empty. The best I could do was something with Crazy Horse of the Sioux basically parroting Kor's line to Gen. Custer :roll: That obviously sucks because it ignores part of the quote's context; i.e., Worf and Kor are buddies!

I'll keep working on it. Maybe before this post is lost on the second or third page of the forum, I'll be able to come up with something. I don't dare post what I have now; being concise isn't one of my virtues, and I really prattled on in my rough draft *sigh*.
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Post by Publius »

seanrobertson wrote:Rather than proceed with what would be that long-winded post, one which would no doubt be a complete intellectual train-wreck, I figured I'd just see what everyone made of these snippets from DS9's "Once More Unto the Breach":


MARTOK (Cont'd)
Kor's family descends from the
Imperial Court itself. Kor is
"of the blood" -- born to rule by
the divine will of Kahless!



Martok hates Kor, yet acknowledges Kor was born to rule?
In the context of the multiple ethnicity theory, both Martok and Kor would be noblemen, and Kor's family's status of being princes du sang would be difficult for a Kahlist credibly to deny, especially if he wished to maintain the integrity of the Empire; witness the permanent breach between the Shi'at 'Ali (Shi'ite Muslims) and the Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah (Sunni Muslisms), which started when the Sunni denied the right of 'Ali, a cousin of Mohammed, to succeed to the caliphate.
Moreover, if we operated from the conclusion that Kor's a former smoothie, how could he be "born to rule by Kahless' divine will", yet he and his ilk were overthrown and possibly massacred?
If Kahless himself were of the same race, with the late-developing ridges, it would be exceedingly difficult for Chancellor Martok to deprecate the entire race, especially given Kor's distinguished record, whereas preceding Governments could easily blame certain individual leaders within the race for the Empire's failures in the Cold War and the unpopular alliance with the Romulan Star Empire.

It might be considered as being similar to the way the Communist Party of the Soviet Union operated. It was too dangerous to make generalisations, because generalisations could contradict subsequent Party decrees (and thereby expose the myth of the infallibility of the Party), so the Party's preferred course of action was simply to exterminate publicly those who incurred its wrath. Without generalising that all smooth-headed Klingons are dishonourable, previous ruling coalitions may have simply purged the leadership, on the grounds that those individuals had dishonoured themselves.
What's more, Kor identifies his own noble blood with that of a lumpy-head, pal Worf:


KOR
Worf, you've been living among
this democratic rabble for too
long. I know your bloodline --
we both come from noble Houses.
Among our people that still
counts for something. If Martok
is a true Klingon, he should
appreciate that.



While it is possible that two different races could both consider their bloodlines comparably "noble" among Klingon houses, that doesn't seem to fit during DS9, when the Klingon culture is clearly dominated by a single race.
It is not unusual for a nobleman of one class to identify more with a hated enemy of noble blood than with any commoner. Kor's aristocratic streak would find value in any noble blood, even that of another race. As much as the British looked down upon the Russians, the Queen-Empress Victoria did not hesitate to marry off her daughter into the Imperial Family; likewise the potent, long-standing rivalry between the House of Habsburg and the House of Bourbon, which did not keep the Queen-Archduchess Maria Theresia from marrying her daughter to the Dauphin du Viennois.

Indeed, it would be more accurate to compare Kor's statement to Dr. Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the Imperial and Royal House of Habsburg-Lorraine, having a Saudi prince as a friend, and telling him that they both come from royal bloodlines. The Saudi prince would agree, even though the Habsburg-Lorraines have been out of power since 1918, and were traditionally among the most ardent enemies of Islam.

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Post by FTeik »

"The enemy is right, the enemy is left, bah.

For an over-partial cabinett of nobles there is only one rule: The enemy is below us."
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Post by seanrobertson »

Publius,
In the context of the multiple ethnicity theory, both Martok and Kor would be noblemen,


Good Sir, pardon my interruption, but I do have to make a nitpick here:

Martok comes from common roots, and said that was the reason Kor rejected his application.

When I was a boy, my family still lived in the lowlands of Ketha Province. We had very little, but it didn't matter -- we were a family of warriors. [...Kor is "of the blood" -- born to rule by the divine will of Kahless!] And what was I? A boy from the Ketha lowlands. He couldn't bear the thought of someone like me joining the elite officer ranks.

So to my father's embarrassment and my everlasting shame, my
application was denied. And with the mark of Kor on my record I
couldn't even join as a common soldier.


Kor wanted to serve in Martok's fleet and asked Worf for help. Worf obliged Kor's request. When he informed Martok, the General replied:

Made him [Kor] an officer... just like that. That's the difference
between his name and mine -- his opens doors, mine closes them.

and Kor's family's status of being princes du sang would be difficult for a Kahlist credibly to deny, especially if he wished to maintain the integrity of the Empire;

But why? Assuming they ever did exist, let alone held power, the
smooth-headed Klingons definitely don't have a voice in "contemporary"
Klingon politics; i.e., those of the TNG-era.

If they're no longer an influential group and, indeed, might've long since
been massacred, mass-converted to the ridge-heads' religion, or re-located altogether, why would this be a matter of maintaining Imperial integrity?

Perhaps, in my haste, I am being short-sighted; but in my opinion, said integrity is only relevant if the smooth-heads are still powerful.

They're not. Kor is respected, but even he had to "beg" Worf for a commission.

Furthermore, when have the Klingons ever placated to the weak? Again, I could be missing something, but I'd have to say "never."

The only time we actually see them placate anyone was when the Duras family wanted to shift their father's dishonor to Mogh; and K'mpec only went along with that because he felt Duras was very powerful.

I also cannot overlook the fact that many Klingon beliefs are inherently racist. We've seen them belittle others on racial basis many times. This is especially the case when speaking of an enemy, but even Klingons who hold more moderate viewpoints will make slurs against their own friends. For example, as I might've already noted in this thread, Worf once said to
O'Brien: "You are just another weak human who is afraid of death!"
("The Ship").

When you couple personal animosity, racist views, AND the fact that Kor's
smooth-head race is a disgraced one, I simply can't see Martok making such an acknowledgement unless he geniunely believed Kor was of the "racially acceptable" Klingon stock.

Again, IMO, I think that is the simplest explanation, but does it miss any of the facts?
If Kahless himself were of the same race, with the late-developing ridges, it would be exceedingly difficult for Chancellor Martok to deprecate the entire race, especially given Kor's distinguished record, whereas preceding
Governments could easily blame certain individual leaders within the race for the Empire's failures in the Cold War and the unpopular alliance with the Romulan Star Empire.
I suppose, but is there any basis for concluding that Kahless was a "late-ridge developer," so to speak?

I realize we see what's supposed to be Kahless in "The Savage Curtain," but that was simply a representation based in Kirk's (or Spock's,
one) imagination.

Additionally, we see depictions of Kahless, complete with ridges, grappling
with another Klingon (I think his brother or maybe Molor, I can't remember). Kahless was a young man in that figurine.

Now, we could easily say that Klingon revisionists took artistic license in giving the model ridgesk. However, does that not also indicate that modern Klingons want to believe Kahless was always ridged?

Either way, Martok would be free to speak ill of the smooth-heads if the
opportunity arose and, given Klingons' attitudes toward those they've
defeated, I find that would be very likely.

It might be considered as being similar to the way the Communist Party of the Soviet Union operated. It was too dangerous to make generalisations, because generalisations could contradict subsequent Party decrees (and thereby expose the myth of the infallibility of the Party), so the Party's preferred course of action was simply to exterminate publicly those who incurred its wrath.

Without generalising that all smooth-headed Klingons are dishonourable,
previous ruling coalitions may have simply purged the leadership, on the
grounds that those individuals had dishonoured themselves.
That's fair, but if something didn't happen to the smooth-heads in general, where are they now?

We pretty much have to infer that the smooth-heads in general are, if alive, dishonored, IMO.
It is not unusual for a nobleman of one class to identify more with a hated
enemy of noble blood than with any commoner. Kor's aristocratic streak would find value in any noble blood, even that of another race.
That's just the thing, though: Kor says as much in the context of a singular
race, referring to "our people" and "our race"; e.g.,


I have no influence left in the Empire. Even as our entire race grapples with the Dominion...there is no place for an old man with too many enemies and not enough friends.

The multi-race theory naturally requires that Klingons are comprised of 2 or
more races (up to the 4 you've identified). Kor makes no such distinction.

One could easily argue that his use of "race" is imprecise, but I think
that's begging the question, working backwards from one's conclusion.

I readily admit I've slipped and done just that on occassion, but foremost,
I'm trying hard to take all the facts at hand, then develop a theory
that convincingly accounts for them all. Ockham's dictates that the simplest explanation that fits is best, so the question becomes, to what does "our entire race" most likely refer?

Can a single-race theory work? Is it in keeping with everything else
we know of Klingons? Must it be as ridiculous as my initial surgery explanation, or my arguably sillier "super being" one (which I actually like on some levels)?

Thus far I'm one of the few people who's come to that conclusion, and no one commented on the "god took their ridges" post, so I had to ask :)
Indeed, it would be more accurate to compare Kor's statement to Dr. Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the Imperial and Royal House of
Habsburg-Lorraine, having a Saudi prince as a friend, and telling him that
they both come from royal bloodlines. The Saudi prince would agree, even
though the Habsburg-Lorraines have been out of power since 1918, and were traditionally among the most ardent enemies of Islam.

Publius
The latter is a potent analogy, even if it does start from the idea that
Kor's definitely a smoothie (or ex-smooth-head).

You make hellacious arguments. I'm not resigned to just quit :), but I increasingly fear you are out of my league.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world, or despair, or fuckin' beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, ya got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man ... and give some back.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

There are many subspecies of the Klingon. Now In the beginning, there were the Oompa-Loompa Klingons. I call them that because only Oompa-Loompas could possibly lose to them.

Now these Oompa Loompas were stupid, because the Forehead Bumps also extended into their brains. They could fight, their culture sucked, and were smelly. But, after uttering Qua Pita Kahless Morath Bu! (Hold my Bloodwine while I try this!) billions of times, they realized they should maybe get rid of the Bumps.

And thus was born the Plingons! With their IQ well above Oompa Loompas (who were amazed to discover you could actually have a double digit IQ number) they soon turned the Klingon Empire from a bunch of moron Vikings into an actual superpower. All was good. Until the Plingons began to hate the stupid Oompa Loompas. After all, they still couldn't fight, their culture sucked and smelled. The Plingons were a minority, only 1% of the population (but having 90% of the military and 99.99% of the IQ).

Breading Plingons and Oompa Loompas is very dangerous. Examples are Chang, who went insane and obsessed with Shakespeare, pissing everyone off. He didn't lose his eye in combat, but when Captain Plang discovered his plans to play Hamlet non-stop over subspace. Of course, Chang never saw the problem with that.

Now, the Klingon Empire was thriving, and the Plingons were willing to put up with the Oompa Loompas for a time. But, after the GREAT TRIBBLE HUNT, in which Oompa Loompas masscred Tribbles for no reason, and still managed heavy casualties even though their opponent was a ball of fluff, the Plingons had enough. Realizing the Oompa Loompas were FUBARed, many committed suicide. Others, like Kor and Klang, decided if you have to live surronded by idiots, you might as well be an idiot, and had their bumps re-installed. Thus ended the Great Klingon Empire (Praxis was caused when millions of Oompa-Loompas discovered the hard way what happens when you smoke and pump your antimatter at the same time).

The reason they don't discuss it with outsiders is because they forget. After all, 3 years later was the Great Rabbit Crusade, where the Oompa Loompas battled for decades against those nefarious furry monsters, who were dozens of centimeters long and able to devour entire carrots in seconds!
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Post by FTeik »

Isn´t there a single mistake in GAT theory?

I can´t see one. :P
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Post by Publius »

seanrobertson wrote:Martok comes from common roots, and said that was the reason Kor rejected his application.

When I was a boy, my family still lived in the lowlands of Ketha Province. We had very little, but it didn't matter -- we were a family of warriors. [...Kor is "of the blood" -- born to rule by the divine will of Kahless!] And what was I? A boy from the Ketha lowlands. He couldn't bear the thought of someone like me joining the elite officer ranks.


That is no mere nitpick, as that does thoroughly undercut the idea that he acknowledges noble blood by default. That leaves two different likely explanations for General Martok's comment regarding Kor's rarified pedigree: (1) he was in fact being sarcastic, and was repeating the ostensible reason for Kor's influence, without believing it himself; or (2) he does in fact acknowledge Kor's semi-divine birthright as a prince du sang impériale, his personal enmity for the man notwithstanding.

Although peculiar, that sort of mentality is not unheard of in aristocratic societies. For example, when the Duc de Bordeaux, the last dynast of the main line of the House of Bourbon, died in 1883, the long-standing feud between supporters of his line of the family (Legitimists) and of the rival line (Orléanists) came to an end; Bordeaux's death meant that the rightful claimant to the French throne became the Comte de Paris, Bordeaux's distant cousin from the Orléans line of the family. Although Bordeaux's widow, the Duchesse de Bordeaux, entertained a cordial hatred for Paris and his descendants, she nevertheless acknowledged that he was indeed the rightful claimant.

But why? Assuming they ever did exist, let alone held power, the
smooth-headed Klingons definitely don't have a voice in "contemporary"
Klingon politics; i.e., those of the TNG-era.

If they're no longer an influential group and, indeed, might've long since
been massacred, mass-converted to the ridge-heads' religion, or re-located altogether, why would this be a matter of maintaining Imperial integrity?


The modern Imperial Government gives every appearance of being a fundamentalist Kahlist régime, and every indication is given that this religious persuasion is very common amongst Klingons of all classes. In that light, even if the smooth-headed Klingons have a negligible political influence, it simply would not do to be seen as being disrespectful toward a distinguished military figure, possessed of practically legendary status, who also happens to be a prince du sang impériale.

Even for the secular Government of the Italian Republic, where the Catholic Church has no political power bloc to speak of, it would generally be politically unwise to be seen as openly disrespectful toward the Pope or high-ranking Ecclesiastical hierarchs, if for no other reason than that the majority of the Italian population is Catholic. Even if Kor's family lacks significant political power, its social and religious prestige at least discourages an openly disrespectful attitude, even in the face of considerable personal antipathy.

Now consider the position of the Imperial Government, whose High Council is nominally ruling in the demigod Emperor Kahless the Unforgettable's stead. This is far from a secular government, and indeed has a vested interest in the maintenance of the appearance of conscientious orthodoxy. It is difficult to conceive of a Government claiming to pay all due respect to a divinity on one hand, and at the same time being openly disrespectful to a nobleman supposedly possessed of divine right deriving from that same divinity on the other.

I also cannot overlook the fact that many Klingon beliefs are inherently racist. We've seen them belittle others on racial basis many times. This is especially the case when speaking of an enemy, but even Klingons who hold more moderate viewpoints will make slurs against their own friends. For example, as I might've already noted in this thread, Worf once said to
O'Brien: "You are just another weak human who is afraid of death!"
("The Ship").


Klingons are indeed quite racist, and this in fact could account for their unwillingness to discuss the difference between smooth-headed Klingons and ridged Klingons with non-Klingons. It would be rather like asking a National-Socialist to account for decidedly non-Aryan supermen leaders as Adolf Hitler, Rudolf Heß, Heinrich Himmler, and Joseph Göbbels; in the face of such a stinging challenge to his bombastic claims of racial superiority, the likely response would be angry bluster, with a distinct possibility of violence.

When you couple personal animosity, racist views, AND the fact that Kor's
smooth-head race is a disgraced one, I simply can't see Martok making such an acknowledgement unless he geniunely believed Kor was of the "racially acceptable" Klingon stock.


It is established that Kor's family descends from the Imperial court, and is said to have a divine right. This alone could account for Martok's acknowledgement of his pedigree, even if one accepts that Kor is of a different racial background than Martok.

I suppose, but is there any basis for concluding that Kahless was a "late-ridge developer," so to speak?

I realize we see what's supposed to be Kahless in "The Savage Curtain," but that was simply a representation based in Kirk's (or Spock's,
one) imagination.


Not having actually seen "The Savage Curtain", it is impossible to comment as to whether or not Kahless's appearance therein can be taken to be correct. However, the fact that Kor, a smooth-headed Klingon, is allegedly descended from Kahless does tend to support the idea that they are both of the same racial or ethnic background, especially in light of the distinctly racist character of Klingon culture in general (it is in fact more likely that Kor is a "pure bred" than that there would be any interracial mating).

Additionally, we see depictions of Kahless, complete with ridges, grappling
with another Klingon (I think his brother or maybe Molor, I can't remember). Kahless was a young man in that figurine.

Now, we could easily say that Klingon revisionists took artistic license in giving the model ridgesk. However, does that not also indicate that modern Klingons want to believe Kahless was always ridged?


One suspects that this is no different from the fact that Jesus Christ is almost invariably depicted in Western art as a well-groomed, fair-skinned European man, in spite of the fact that He would have been a somewhat darker-skinned, orthodox Jewish male of Hebrew descent living in the Middle East 2,000 years ago. Indeed, virtually the only people in most Christian art that are actually shown as they would have looked are the Romans.

This is really a sort of passive cultural egocentrism, a half-hearted, idle attempt to remake God in one's own image, and primarily the product of intellectual laziness and wilful inaccuracy on the artist's part. No more than a moment's reflection is required for any mildly intelligent individual to reach the conclusion that the art, even if piously done, is not especially accurate. After all, surely no Japanese person would seriously believe that Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry, USN, had Japanese features, the fact that he is often depicted as such notwithstanding.

Either way, Martok would be free to speak ill of the smooth-heads if the
opportunity arose and, given Klingons' attitudes toward those they've
defeated, I find that would be very likely.


If one interprets Martok's comment about Kor's lineage as being sincere, then it stands to reason that while he would ordinarily be free to deprecate most smooth-headed Klingons, Kor's particular heritage and military reputation make him more of a special exception.

That's fair, but if something didn't happen to the smooth-heads in general, where are they now?

We pretty much have to infer that the smooth-heads in general are, if alive, dishonored, IMO.


If the majority of the leadership of the smooth-headed Klingons were purged, and that would presumably include the most promising members of the rising generation, it could simply be that the only smooth-headed Klingons left are either too old or too young to take part in any of the activities seen in the series. One must further keep in mind that it is quite possible that the leading youths of the smooth-headed Klingons are routinely purged, as the Spartans routinely terrorised the helots.

That's just the thing, though: Kor says as much in the context of a singular
race, referring to "our people" and "our race"; e.g.,


I have no influence left in the Empire. Even as our entire race grapples with the Dominion...there is no place for an old man with too many enemies and not enough friends.

The multi-race theory naturally requires that Klingons are comprised of 2 or
more races (up to the 4 you've identified). Kor makes no such distinction.

One could easily argue that his use of "race" is imprecise, but I think
that's begging the question, working backwards from one's conclusion.


Actually, from an hermeneutic standpoint, it is almost necessary that his usage of "race" be imprecise, even colloquial, in much the same way that the word "nation" is habitually misused and abused by modern politicians.

Consider: a race is an arbitrarily-defined sociological category based on phenotypical characteristics, usually skin colour, hair quantity and form, and the shape and form of the body, head, and facial features. By definition, then, Kor's use of the word cannot be precise, as not less than two visually distinct types of Klingons have been identified, i.e., not less than two different Klingon races.

In keeping with the principle of parsimony, which is the simpler explanation: That Kor was simply being imprecise in his language, or that what appears to be a different race is actually the same race, but only appears to be different because of surgery, or mutation, or transmogrification imposed by some otherdimensional being's fancy?

Can a single-race theory work? Is it in keeping with everything else
we know of Klingons? Must it be as ridiculous as my initial surgery explanation, or my arguably sillier "super being" one (which I actually like on some levels)?
The chief difficulty with a single-race theory is that not less than two races have already been identified, and possibly as many as four (although General Chang could potentially be a smooth-headed Klingon of advanced age, like Kang, Koloth, and Kor, and the ridged Klingons of The Motion Picture could be simply one subset of the more familiar ridged Klingons). Although the racial differences can be explained by other means, that method suffers from the same problem as interpreting Kor's mention of "our entire race": it necessarily revises evidence to fit a theory to some extent, rather than the other way 'round.

And while one is tempted to say that the whole matter is the doing of some nameless superbeing is simply absurd, it is not really any more or less absurd than some of the other shenanigans perpetrated by superbeings in the course of Star Trek. As cliché as it may sound, stranger things have happened.
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It is not often that one finds such underestimation of oneself and such overestimation of one's opponent so concisely written. You're overly kind on the one hand, and overly modest on the other.

Publius
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Aren't you people over-looking the really and truly obvious explaination?

StarTrek, the original series, was made in the 1960s. This, naturally, has a two-fold effect. One is budget. TV shows in the sixties were shoe-string operations. Gene Roddenberry addressed this multiple times, but most famously in a bit of dialogue with an industrialist who asked him about how the doors on the Enterprise worked, because he wanted them for his new office building. Gene Roddenberry replied "Well, I have two stage hands on either side of the door open them." Naturally, this applies to make up and appliances. Funny mustaches and hair grease is alot cheaper in the 1960s than making a latex skullridge and pointy dentures (not to mention alot more comfortable for the actors, we've come a long way in the industrial aspect of film).

Secondly, there was the political aspect. One of StarTreks deals was that it was packed full of American jingoism and alien races in it, particularly the Klingons, were designed to be architypes of existing human groups. Do you think it was accidental that all the Klingons looked like they would fit in well with Ghengis Khan's horde or alternatively has Charlie Chan like dialogue and accents? If you do, I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you. Such things weren't just accepted in the 60s (to have aliens be human architypes), but practically expected.

Then the Motion Pictures rolled around. Then, they actually had a real budget (I seem to remember Roddenberry dancing with joy when he found out what he had at his disposal, a meagre amount by todays standards, but great compared to the duck tape madness of the show). This means they could actually afford nice things like a real fly by model of the Enterprise (I've seen the thing in real life... it's an absolutely gorgeous piece of work) and uniforms that weren't sweatshirts with decals taped to them. This also means that they could afford to have their industrial design staff whip them up some latex appliances. So they said "What the hell? We can afford it, let's make our Klingons look like aliens rather than bad knock off of Ming the Merciless! Hurray for money!" and did so. Naturally, later incarnations of StarTrek kept with this due to having an actual budget and so the Klingons remain to this day.


That's honestly why the disparity exists. There is no good reason to kick your own ass over an fancy explaination when a perfectly reasonable and mundane one already exists. I swear, people on these message boards don't seem to understand that budget, technology, and character design are like 90% of the deciding factor when making a TV show or film and that things do happen based on how skilled the producers of the show are at wringing investors for money or if their industrial crew is even able to make something work.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Gil Hamilton wrote: <snip long real-life explanation> .
its called suspension of disbelieve
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Gil, that was the accepted explanation (as was some mutation) until one little line in "Trials" FUBAR it
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Crazedwraith wrote:its called suspension of disbelieve
People take suspension of disbelief way too far. How much sense does it make to beat your head on the wall for hours coming up with a convoluted and largely speculative explaination for something when a completely mundane explaination exist that just happens to be the truth.
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Gil, that was the accepted explanation (as was some mutation) until one little line in "Trials" FUBAR it
Really? The only line in "Trials" that even addressed it was Worfs "We don't like to talk about it." line when O'Brien went "That's a Klingon?!" Do you know what an "in-joke" is? Where the writers stick in a humorous nod to something meant for followers of the series? The whole issue with the Klingon forehead thing has always been a bit of a joke amongst the writers of the series and Trek-dom in general and the writers (along with maintaining continuity) decided to give their fan base a little chuckle. Writers do that all the time.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Gil Hamilton wrote:People take suspension of disbelief way too far. How much sense does it make to beat your head on the wall for hours coming up with a convoluted and largely speculative explaination for something when a completely mundane explaination exist that just happens to be the truth.
Because it invalidates the entire discussion. If we wanted to, we could pull a Gil Hamilton and say, "Oh well, all this stuff is just fiction anyway, so there's no point in debating it at all." But where's the fun in that?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Because it invalidates the entire discussion. If we wanted to, we could pull a Gil Hamilton and say, "Oh well, all this stuff is just fiction anyway, so there's no point in debating it at all." But where's the fun in that?
But it's the turth. There really isn't an "in-universe" explaination for why Klingons are the greasy bastard children of Ming the Merciless in TOS and are entirely different in TMP on. Nor can one be developed without being massively convoluted and utterly speculative. I'm all for discussing events in sci-fi or SF, but one has to be aware of the constraints of the medium it is made in, or else you will find that you are bullshitting yourself constaintly.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Gil Hamilton wrote:But it's the turth. There really isn't an "in-universe" explaination for why Klingons are the greasy bastard children of Ming the Merciless in TOS and are entirely different in TMP on. Nor can one be developed without being massively convoluted and utterly speculative. I'm all for discussing events in sci-fi or SF, but one has to be aware of the constraints of the medium it is made in, or else you will find that you are bullshitting yourself constaintly.
"Constraints of the medium?" I don't think you understand suspension of disbelief. It would be nice to be able to take a cop-out at will in situations of gross stupidity from the author/writer, but to debate it at all we need to maintain that it is a real universe separate from our own. We can't just say "this is not within suspension of disbelief but that is."
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Post by RedImperator »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:But it's the turth. There really isn't an "in-universe" explaination for why Klingons are the greasy bastard children of Ming the Merciless in TOS and are entirely different in TMP on. Nor can one be developed without being massively convoluted and utterly speculative. I'm all for discussing events in sci-fi or SF, but one has to be aware of the constraints of the medium it is made in, or else you will find that you are bullshitting yourself constaintly.
"Constraints of the medium?" I don't think you understand suspension of disbelief. It would be nice to be able to take a cop-out at will in situations of gross stupidity from the author/writer, but to debate it at all we need to maintain that it is a real universe separate from our own. We can't just say "this is not within suspension of disbelief but that is."
Why not, exactly? For vs. debating, yeah, you can't write off anything as a real-world problem, but for just enjoying the series? I never had a real problem with it. If it's fun to try to concieve an in-universe explanation, then go for it, but it's silly to say "we can't just" selectively suspend disbelief. Most Trek viewers do just that.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

RedImperator wrote:Why not, exactly? For vs. debating, yeah, you can't write off anything as a real-world problem, but for just enjoying the series? I never had a real problem with it. If it's fun to try to concieve an in-universe explanation, then go for it, but it's silly to say "we can't just" selectively suspend disbelief. Most Trek viewers do just that.
When did we start talking about the viewers at home? This discussion is about the debate. I don't know where you're coming from.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Gil Hamilton wrote: Do you think it was accidental that all the Klingons looked like they would fit in well with Ghengis Khan's horde or alternatively has Charlie Chan like dialogue and accents?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but I thought the Klingons were supposed to resemble Eastern Europeans (specifically, the Soviet Union) rather than mongols???
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Post by RedImperator »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Why not, exactly? For vs. debating, yeah, you can't write off anything as a real-world problem, but for just enjoying the series? I never had a real problem with it. If it's fun to try to concieve an in-universe explanation, then go for it, but it's silly to say "we can't just" selectively suspend disbelief. Most Trek viewers do just that.
When did we start talking about the viewers at home? This discussion is about the debate. I don't know where you're coming from.
Ah, shit. I should have read your post more carefully. Disregard my previous statements.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:"Constraints of the medium?" I don't think you understand suspension of disbelief. It would be nice to be able to take a cop-out at will in situations of gross stupidity from the author/writer, but to debate it at all we need to maintain that it is a real universe separate from our own. We can't just say "this is not within suspension of disbelief but that is."
But it's not a cop-out when it's the truth. And yes, I understand suspension of disbelief. What I don't understand is people who use it like dogma or in place of common sense and logic. Do you know how many utterly retarded things people have said under the guise that they have to suspend disbelief no matter what? Remind me to link you to the page where a group of Trekkies on SB.com tried to defend the "crack in the event horizon" thing in Voyager using some of the most bizarre bullshit imaginable. Or the ones that were defending the "subatomic bacteria" in TNG. And these are intelligent human beings! That's what you get from being utterly dogmatic about "suspension of disbelief", not to mention threads like this where people spend hours trying to answer a question that has no answer, except for an utterly mundane and simple one they chose to ignore.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Gil Hamilton wrote:That's what you get from being utterly dogmatic about "suspension of disbelief", not to mention threads like this where people spend hours trying to answer a question that has no answer, except for an utterly mundane and simple one they chose to ignore.
Okay, I was right. You don't understand suspension of disbelief.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but I thought the Klingons were supposed to resemble Eastern Europeans (specifically, the Soviet Union) rather than mongols???
They resemble lots of things, on occasion. My mental image of them from the original series (which granted, was a while ago) was that they looked somewhat like Mongols. But you are quite right. The underlying political nature of the show had the Klingons be the other side of the Cold War, while the Federation was America.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Okay, I was right. You don't understand suspension of disbelief.
Thanks for cropping the first part of my post out and then responding to only one line. :roll:
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Gil Hamilton wrote:snip

Read my explanation. Accept it or die. :)
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Thanks for cropping the first part of my post out and then responding to only one line. :roll:
Considering that the rest of your post was an asinine rant about how stupid it is to follow the rules of the debate, and how much smarter it is to change them whenever it suits you, you should thank me. Here's the deal:

If you're going to suspend disbelief, you have to do it across the board. You can't abruptly decide that you don't want to deal with a specific issue, and say that it's just part of the storyline, or that there's no proper explanation for it. Why don't we just say that the Death Star didn't really generate enough energy to blow up the planet (that requires that it generate more energy then it should logically be able to), it was just George Lucas making a good story. We shouldn't attempt to quantify the powers of the Jedi, because it's just part of the story and it requires too much meandering about in speculation!
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:Considering that the rest of your post was an asinine rant about how stupid it is to follow the rules of the debate, and how much smarter it is to change them whenever it suits you, you should thank me. Here's the deal:
Considering you missed the point of the post, that being that being utterly rigid about "suspension of disbelief" leads to dogma, and dogma leads to intelligent people saying really retarded things, you can cram it.
If you're going to suspend disbelief, you have to do it across the board. You can't abruptly decide that you don't want to deal with a specific issue, and say that it's just part of the storyline, or that there's no proper explanation for it. Why don't we just say that the Death Star didn't really generate enough energy to blow up the planet (that requires that it generate more energy then it should logically be able to), it was just George Lucas making a good story. We shouldn't attempt to quantify the powers of the Jedi, because it's just part of the story and it requires too much meandering about in speculation!
OK, first, cut the strawman. I'm not saying that because I "don't want to deal with a specific issue", I'm just writing it off as having no proper explaination. What I am saying is that things frequently do have proper explainations, it's just they are not all "in-universe" and don't have "in-universe" explainations, such as the issues with the transformation of the Klingons.

Secondly, only a dogmatic idiot would rigidly hold to "suspension of disbelief" when dealing with television and film, because some much of what happens in television and film are dictated by factors other than "in-universe" reasons, such as budget, or because a scene is more exciting if shot a certain way, or writer's error. That being said, it's fine to quantify the power of something or another and I never once said that you shouldn't. What I'm saying is that when you encounter an issue that can be easily and turthfully explained by changes in a shows budget, you shouldn't ignore the truth and waste copious amounts of brainsweat making up some convoluted bullshit explaination, simply because you want to "suspend disbelief".

I'm also saying that "suspension of disbelief" is taken way too far, which is why I listed the above examples of normally intelligent people saying impossibly stupid things in order to defend something in the show that is easily explained by some dumbass Paramount script-hobo trying to write something that sounds high tech or science-y. For instance, there was one Next Generation episode that had "subatomic bacteria". Subatomic bacteria! You can't suspend disbelief there, because the words are directly contradictory. Bacteria can't be subatomic, because size is one of the defining characteristics of bacteria that differentiates it from other organisms. Yet people pull the "suspension of disbelief" dogma up, saying "Well, bacteria can be subatomic cause... uh... the show says so and we must watch the show like it's 100% true!". It reminds me ALOT of theway that fundies use to claim that Genesis is literally true. "Genesis is true because the Bible says so, and the Bible is 100% true!" sort of thing. It's all a steaming pile of dogma.
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