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Darth Wong wrote:The fact that everyone in it will report being tortured by Michael won't help him if his plan is to use them as proof of angelic resistance to Yahweh's dictatorial regime. If Yahweh is Hitler and the concentration camp is Auschwitz, he's positioning himself as Mengele. I suppose he would prefer to be Rommel, but if he wants to do that then he should avoid any association with the camp or the people doing the questioning.

I think Michael is probably going to kill off all the people's he's tortured already and let Belial do the torturing and hope that the outcry over Belial's actions will prevent anyone from taking a hard look at him. It sort of worked for Belial's ex, Euryale (that was Euryale, wasn't it? I keep on mixing up the demons).

Darth Wong wrote: The fact that everyone in it will report being tortured by Michael won't help him if his plan is to use them as proof of angelic resistance to Yahweh's dictatorial regime. If Yahweh is Hitler and the concentration camp is Auschwitz, he's positioning himself as Mengele. I suppose he would prefer to be Rommel, but if he wants to do that then he should avoid any association with the camp or the people doing the questioning.

Don't forget the Night Club, he's going for Rommel or maybe Dönitz. If he's been saving humans and we know from before it's been going on for awhile now. He's expecting if humans end up in heaven he's going to be able to dangle the night club humans(Some of them quite famous) who will be able to testify that Michael tried to make things better. Even if he's Yahweh's best general if he lays it all out he might win enough public opinion to his side to keep him alive. After all if he can produce say Elvis alive and well and tell humanity "hey look, I've been saving some of the best humanity has to offer and not letting Satan or Yahweh torture them, look how nice I've been to my humans."

Not to say it will work out any better than a certain leader of the Succubus. But your still in the same area where he's trying to incur as much positive PR for the after.

Mr Bean wrote:After all if he can produce say Elvis alive and well and tell humanity "hey look, I've been saving some of the best humanity has to offer and not letting Satan or Yahweh torture them, look how nice I've been to my humans."

I believe it was stated that one of the "others" snatched away Elvis before Michael could.

Michael could try to save his skin by ratting out the other pantheons. He seemed to be perfectly aware of Ya ya and Satan's family relationship, for starters.

Stuart wrote:

Omega Scythe wrote: So basically, what you're saying is that they look exactly like evil versions of the Starcraft Protoss Warpgates.

Say what??????

It is some weirdo non-specific and poorly constructed allusion to an ancient real-time-strategy video game that North Koreans obsess over.

Darth Wong wrote:

Mayabird wrote:That was definitely my impression and that was obviously Michael's plan to keep all the angels from being exterminated, but it was out of character for Heaven. Which is intentional, so I guess I'll have to wait and see. I can't help but wonder how the plan will backfire, though.

The fact that everyone in it will report being tortured by Michael won't help him if his plan is to use them as proof of angelic resistance to Yahweh's dictatorial regime. If Yahweh is Hitler and the concentration camp is Auschwitz, he's positioning himself as Mengele. I suppose he would prefer to be Rommel, but if he wants to do that then he should avoid any association with the camp or the people doing the questioning.

Someone earlier put it best, I think:

HSRTG wrote:Michael's trying to play Chess when the game is Russian Roulette.

Michael thinks he has the plans within the plans within the plans and he's the puppeteer pulling the strings, Heaven's Machiavellian Prince. This is the guy who nearly got his ass nuked out of simple carelessness. I'll be more direct and say that the concentration camp will backfire far worse than it would if they were torturing the other angels more medieval-or-earlier style in towers or dungeons or giant muddy pits in the ground (which the human slaves had to dig anyway). It doesn't fit and looks suspicious. He's too personally involved in his business and there are a lot of angels under him who could sell him out for their own survival. It might work - might - if Michael was planning to sacrifice himself so that some of them might live by making himself look like a sadistic monster crushing everyone, other archangels included, under his sandals, but he's angling for the incensed throne, probably with the incense replaced with the finest weed.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:

Stuart wrote:

Omega Scythe wrote: So basically, what you're saying is that they look exactly like evil versions of the Starcraft Protoss Warpgates.

Say what??????

It is some weirdo non-specific and poorly constructed allusion to an ancient real-time-strategy video game that North Koreans obsess over.

I think you mean South Koreans...

Mayabird wrote:
Michael thinks he has the plans within the plans within the plans and he's the puppeteer pulling the strings, Heaven's Machiavellian Prince. This is the guy who nearly got his ass nuked out of simple carelessness. I'll be more direct and say that the concentration camp will backfire far worse than it would if they were torturing the other angels more medieval-or-earlier style in towers or dungeons or giant muddy pits in the ground (which the human slaves had to dig anyway). It doesn't fit and looks suspicious. He's too personally involved in his business and there are a lot of angels under him who could sell him out for their own survival. It might work - might - if Michael was planning to sacrifice himself so that some of them might live by making himself look like a sadistic monster crushing everyone, other archangels included, under his sandals, but he's angling for the incensed throne, probably with the incense replaced with the finest weed.

What would really make Michael dangerous is if he was to escape and work with another pantheon. He'd certainly be far more threatening than Belial.

Mayabird wrote:Michael thinks he has the plans within the plans within the plans and he's the puppeteer pulling the strings, Heaven's Machiavellian Prince. This is the guy who nearly got his ass nuked out of simple carelessness. I'll be more direct and say that the concentration camp will backfire far worse than it would if they were torturing the other angels more medieval-or-earlier style in towers or dungeons or giant muddy pits in the ground (which the human slaves had to dig anyway). It doesn't fit and looks suspicious. He's too personally involved in his business and there are a lot of angels under him who could sell him out for their own survival. It might work - might - if Michael was planning to sacrifice himself so that some of them might live by making himself look like a sadistic monster crushing everyone, other archangels included, under his sandals, but he's angling for the incensed throne, probably with the incense replaced with the finest weed.

Indeed. Nowadays I see Michael less as a "magnificent bastard" and more as a homily about (ironically enough) Pride in the making. (lol foreshadowing?)

Pelranius wrote:What would really make Michael dangerous is if he was to escape and work with another pantheon. He'd certainly be far more threatening than Belial.

Would he? How so? Michael's only powerful at all because of his webs of corruption in Heavenly society. What has he actually accomplished vis-a-vis hurting the humans? Why would he even want to hurt the humans? How do we know that other pantheons aren't every bit as conscious and sensible about humanity's power as Michael is? Etc. etc.

Stuart wrote:A better way of looking at it is to compare it to air travel. A person gets on a plane at one airport, takes off and lands at another. So, once the portal network is established, people would go to a "travelport" (or whatever), transit from there to a travelport in Hell and then go from there back to their chosen destination on Earth.

Yeah, I omitted mentioning the giant pile of lava would land in Hell or Heaven if I'd stick with the volcanoes.

Btw, I propose Portsquare as the official term for the future portal hubs. Spoiler

Lonestar wrote:Seriously? No one else is seeing this as "Michael is setting up Camps so when the Humans arrive they see other Angels that have been rounded up for fighting Yahweh and so humanity will have a reason to not kill every Angel they can get their hands on?"

Actually, I read something else in that. Belial pretty much guaranteed being the centre of the humanly wrath by his Sky Volcanoes. That has been what, twelve, fifteen month ago? Not to devalue the fictional victims of his homicide, but its been a while and time IS a mitigating factor in these things. Why shouldn't Michael place Belial as a first scapegoat, to take the brunt of the wrath? When humans come a-knocking, the Pearly Gates will give way and we'll see a Lord of Hell in the midst of silver-red stained camp making Heaven a modernized Hell.

To point the discussion in another direction:

1. So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
   Anthrax for Nephilim/Sensitives
2. The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
   Red Algae
3. Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
   Again, Red Algae
4. The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
   Thermonuclear fire
   Next up are bowls yet to pour:
5. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
   I'm pulling blanks.
6. The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
   The first may refer to a drought, the second... I don't know.
7. Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.
   Hypercane and earthquakes?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It is some weirdo non-specific and poorly constructed allusion to an ancient real-time-strategy video game that North Koreans obsess over.

South Koreans; North Koreans are still in the Slide Rule Age.

The Protoss are a technologically advanced alien species that can move war materiel around the galaxy pretty much at will by generating "warp portals." These portals teleport items straight from the production lines or training facilities to the battlefield. They look like big glowing blue spheres with some lightning crackling around the edges.

Buritot wrote:Next up are bowls yet to pour:
[*]Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
I'm pulling blanks.[*]The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
The first may refer to a drought, the second... I don't know.
[*]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.
Hypercane and earthquakes?[/list]

The fifth is probably some sort of plague, possibly combined with a massive insect swarm or something. The second half of the sixth bowl is probably just John of Patmos having a bad trip. Dunno how he'd trigger an earthquake for the seventh, but it's at least plausible.

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:Wow, this story has 46 parts? It must be pretty epic.

What's the plot of the whole thing. It sounds like it involves Judeo-Christian mythology.

The previous part, "Armageddon????" had 85...

Wouldn't it be ironic if the 'Great City' mentioned in the 7th judgement turned out to be Heaven?

Vastatosaurus Rex wrote:Wow, this story has 46 parts? It must be pretty epic.

What's the plot of the whole thing. It sounds like it involves Judeo-Christian mythology.

I suggest you start with book one first before trying to read this.
linky

Essentially book one humans Spoiler and as you can read from this thread humans are now waging war against Heaven.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Wouldn't it be ironic if the 'Great City' mentioned in the 7th judgement turned out to be Heaven?

Heh that would be nicely ironic. After all they talk about how that city is divided up into three parts, American and British occupation Zone, Rest of Europe Occupation Zone, Russian and Chinese occupation zone?

By the way, as for the fifth bowel, maybe it's some kind of eclipse, though of course the Angel's don't really "get" how outer space work so they might be a little shocked to discover there's no air up there....

Jamesfirecat wrote:maybe it's some kind of eclipse, though of course the Angel's don't really "get" how outer space work so they might be a little shocked to discover there's no air up there

Actually, I have another idea...

Buritot wrote:Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

Though I'm not sure what the "throne of the beast" could be, I can easily look at this as a disease that causes people immense pain and gradual loss of eyesight. The "darkened" bit sounds something like what happens with excess positive G forces, blood draining from the eyes.

-------

On a different note, how do daemons tell time in Hell? No sunrise and sunset = no tell-tale way to time night and day or days, weeks, months and years. This actually fits in well with the fact that they live so long, that they really cannot comprehend human life and civilizations and our need for progress. Once every couple of centuries for Satan was fine, but turned out a bad idea. I wonder if they're even sure about how long a 'century' is.

And, I must ask, what happened to the devils?

UnderAGreySky wrote: And, I must ask, what happened to the devils?

They seemed to have been pushed off to the side by Yahweh and Satan, though the demons seem rather fearful of (or at least don't like) them, judging by their reactions to being called 'devils'.

UnderAGreySky wrote:

Jamesfirecat wrote:maybe it's some kind of eclipse, though of course the Angel's don't really "get" how outer space work so they might be a little shocked to discover there's no air up there

Actually, I have another idea...

Buritot wrote:Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

Though I'm not sure what the "throne of the beast" could be, I can easily look at this as a disease that causes people immense pain and gradual loss of eyesight. The "darkened" bit sounds something like what happens with excess positive G forces, blood draining from the eyes.

-------

On a different note, how do daemons tell time in Hell? No sunrise and sunset = no tell-tale way to time night and day or days, weeks, months and years. This actually fits in well with the fact that they live so long, that they really cannot comprehend human life and civilizations and our need for progress. Once every couple of centuries for Satan was fine, but turned out a bad idea. I wonder if they're even sure about how long a 'century' is.

And, I must ask, what happened to the devils?

You're suggestion on a disease that causes pain and blindness is pretty reasonable saddly enough for the humans in the story.

As for the devils, well if you want my two cents, devils seem to be sort of like the Native Americans, if the Baldricks are the Europeans and the Orks are the Africans. The second group came in and made slaves out of the third group, but they only ended up displacing the first group and still told ghost stories about the "horrific savages" who are out there somewhere on the cusp of civilization.

We'll most likely be seeing much more of them come Lords of War when the dust settles and we've got time to take stock of everything that has been going on...

Alright, took me a while to see that things were up and running again. Thoughts, in my handy-dandy list form:
1) I enjoyed the lampshade hanging on "Put this in a novel and nobody would believe it".
2) Good twist on Michael having been extra-careful. I think that gives new meaning to "Aw, hell."
3) Nice shot at Limbaugh. Very nice.
4) I -think- I missed the attack on Los Angeles (probably due to being busy with some odd thing IRL). Could someone tell me which chapter it's in?
5) It seems that Heaven has conspiracies that are falling all over eachother. For some reason I'm beginning to expect Michael to get a good permanent defense up, possibly get close to being able to beat the humans, only to suddenly have about eight conspiracies come out of the woodwork, fall all over eachother, and lose the war. Which would be hilarious, honestly.
6) "I saw something was happening much earlier than that but it was subtle, quiet. Yet it caused this explosion of destructive power and military skill. And changed me as much as it changed them." Reference to the Enlightenment? I'm only asking because the discussion on nukes leaps to mind as one hell of a shocker for him to have.
7) Nice bit on Belial being put in charge of putting Hell into Heaven. Also, a very interesting way of Michael saving the angels' collective rear ends you have.


On the bowls:
Fifth: Dust storms or something in that vein, perhaps? Maybe a large-scale volcanic eruption (if you could somehow set portals up under the Earth's surface...)? The disease suggestions previously made also work here.

Sixth: Drop a portal under the river and have it come out somewhere else. Preferably someplace inconvenient. The frogs could just be something else stuck in storage (perhaps some strange symbiote?).

Seventh: Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions; thunder and lightning often break out in the clouds around a volcanic eruption (and said eruptions tend to be loud, not to mention often involving earthquakes), so this one could be kept totally geological in nature. I'd be inclined to think along the lines of using what I mentioned for Bowl Five in here...rig things up with one portal in the mantle and the other on the surface, set up the portals so they stay open for a while, and trans-ship through Hell or some other non-Heaven intermediary destination, and you have one ugly volcanic eruption.
Edit: Set up the magma/lava source under a subduction zone and make it big enough, and some fun things could result along the lines of the coastal subduction we're seeing IRL under Louisiana, only on a geological scale.

Jamesfirecat wrote:As for the devils, well if you want my two cents, devils seem to be sort of like the Native Americans, if the Baldricks are the Europeans and the Orks are the Africans. The second group came in and made slaves out of the third group, but they only ended up displacing the first group and still told ghost stories about the "horrific savages" who are out there somewhere on the cusp of civilization.

The difference seems to be that the devils aren't just feared for being savage; they're feared for being powerful, to the point where no one in Heaven or Hell wants to draw their anger. The Native Americans were never that strong.

Their supposed power gives one hard question - who or what made them leave hell, if they were so powerful?

Possibly they relocated to better real estate? Maybe they saw that giant volcanic eruption coming and decided to pull up stakes.

Maybe they got defeated in a very nasty war, nastier than what even the angels or demons usually do, and they themselves did nasties that'd make the angels and demons pale. So they'd be defeated and long gone but still feared, like Nazis.

Yahweh and Satan made concessions to the others to save their hides. Considering the kind of douchebags they are, the old ones must wield great power to cow them that much.

UnderAGreySky wrote:On a different note, how do daemons tell time in Hell? No sunrise and sunset = no tell-tale way to time night and day or days, weeks, months and years. This actually fits in well with the fact that they live so long, that they really cannot comprehend human life and civilizations and our need for progress. Once every couple of centuries for Satan was fine, but turned out a bad idea. I wonder if they're even sure about how long a 'century' is.

If by nothing else by their bodily functions. Daemons are somewhat governed by laws of biology and physiology. Giving the instances beds were mentioned (remember Belials amorous tête-à-tête?) and their desire to eat (Lugas table manners come to mind) it seems logical. So if they have no outwards means to measure time, like geysers, they have at least their bodies telling them SLEEP and LUNCH.
(On a side note, I don't have the source on hand, but if I remember correctly the natural human day-night-cycle under deprivation of sunlight takes actually 25 hours. It would be nice to see daemons having trouble adapting to the day-night-cycle of Earth.)

GrayAnderson wrote:4) I -think- I missed the attack on Los Angeles (probably due to being busy with some odd thing IRL). Could someone tell me which chapter it's in?

The gist of it was suicide runs of rampaging Baldricks in random cities. One to few portal in, kill people and get mauled by the mob. If the mob has sufficient weapons on hand.

GrayAnderson wrote:On the bowls:
Fifth: Dust storms or something in that vein, perhaps? Maybe a large-scale volcanic eruption (if you could somehow set portals up under the Earth's surface...)? The disease suggestions previously made also work here.

Sixth: Drop a portal under the river and have it come out somewhere else. Preferably someplace inconvenient. The frogs could just be something else stuck in storage (perhaps some strange symbiote?).

Seventh: Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions; thunder and lightning often break out in the clouds around a volcanic eruption (and said eruptions tend to be loud, not to mention often involving earthquakes), so this one could be kept totally geological in nature. I'd be inclined to think along the lines of using what I mentioned for Bowl Five in here...rig things up with one portal in the mantle and the other on the surface, set up the portals so they stay open for a while, and trans-ship through Hell or some other non-Heaven intermediary destination, and you have one ugly volcanic eruption.
Edit: Set up the magma/lava source under a subduction zone and make it big enough, and some fun things could result along the lines of the coastal subduction we're seeing IRL under Louisiana, only on a geological scale.

There is no way for them to put a portal under the crust. They barely and ingeniously managed to put the portal subsurface of lava. Moving the portal kilometres deep? I don't think they can pull that trick.
Also, I think there need to be minimum distance between to portholes. If you want to move stuff via another plane, on its own accord, you will have to get creative. Say, open a sky volcano on Earth which is fed by a volcano on Earth. You'd need to open a portal from a the crater to Hell, in Hell the lava would need to flow a certain distance, say 30m (100ft), in a channel with a decent slope and there it would cross a second portal to Earth again. Doable, but by no means easy on larger scales.
Concerning the river... Good idea. But a river has many inlets feeding it, so where to put it? And who says the Think Tank (did it have a special name? Nyarlo-something?) didn't develop a way to forcefully close a portal, self-sustaining or not?

Correction, the attack on LA was Uriel and not random rampaging baldricks. It ended in the previous thread, this one starts with the celebration of... well, if you haven't read it, Anderson, you should be going back to the previous thread. Or the Cleaned-Up one, since it is to-date.