You vs. the Alpha Quadrant

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 02:14pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:
Shadow wrote: They don't need a wormhole to get to the SW galaxy.
How do you know? There's no evidence of 8472 being able to travel to different galaxies?

I don't think he cares.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-10 04:06pm

God, its like arguing with OT or Breen.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 04:19pm

Mr Bean wrote: 1. How does biological ships who use Telepthy get a map from a backwater world.....
Does not matter if you go to Courscant or to Yavin the MAPS ARE ON COMPUTERS!
And last time any idiot checked telepthy does not work on computers

The can transfer the information to the bio-ship.

You mean to tell me a black hole pops up near you and out of it comes ships and you would not attack?
Furthmore They are not small they X-wings, Consdering what Proton Torpodes are cabable of they regard ANYTHING as a threat

The black hole would distract them for several seconds.

Speculation

You don't think a black hole suddenly appearing would be a distraction?

Speculation you have no proof to back this up

The sensors pulse would be disrupted by the gravity.

(And since when do they produce blackholes, First time you mentioned that, Quantum Sigulatires is what we have be going by so far and those are NOT black holes, If they where 8472 would not be a problem the Black hole would kill them the instant they came out of *Fludic space as that black holes in THIS space and no amount of riggmralo is going to get around the fact that black holes are bloody nasty things for ships)

Quantum singularity is a fancy term for black hole. Voyager can survive inside a black hole. The quantum singularity had extreme gravity as well.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Duh he was afraid. They thought humans were going to invade their
realm.

That doesn't change their hatred of humans.

Yes they do. They have no idea where it is.

They can read the Imperial's minds for information on it. This would make it easy to pick the right one.

Not with those nanoprobes.

They got the design.

Darth Yoshi wrote:How do you know? There's no evidence of 8472 being able to travel to different galaxies?

They have been shown to instantly travel to any area they want to. This is like saying that hyperdrive would not work in Star Trek.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 04:40pm

The can transfer the information to the bio-ship.

HOW
BACK IT UP

The black hole would distract them for several seconds.

Speculation agian and WTF do you think they are gonna think when they see Suddley a mini-black hole pop up and however many ships eurge, They don't give a rats ass about the black hole if some ships poped up next to it
Back this up

You don't think a black hole suddenly appearing would be a distraction

No but don't you think a black hole and a bunch of bio ships poping up would be more intresting?

You don't think a black hole suddenly appearing would be a distraction

Prove it, Since when are SW sensors affected by Gravity?

Quantum singularity is a fancy term for black hole. Voyager can survive inside a black hole. The quantum singularity had extreme gravity as well.

Prove its the same thing and also I'd like to here when Voyager went inside a black hole

They have been shown to instantly travel to any area they want to. This is like saying that hyperdrive would not work in Star Trek.

Instanly? Realy when? If they where so afriad of humans why not show up above earth, What they did not? Gee I wonder why? Don't they hate the board, Why not just show up at the borgs centeral core, What they did not? Gee I wonder why
This is diffrent from saying Hyperdrive don't work in ST

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-10 05:03pm

Shadow wrote: Quantum singularity is a fancy term for black hole. Voyager can survive inside a black hole. The quantum singularity had extreme gravity as well.

By definition, if a solid object survived, it wasn't a black hole. Troll.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 05:12pm

That "quantum sigularity" had a crack in its "event horizon". An event horizon is not a physical barrier, mearly a point where objects can't escape the gravity of a black hole

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 05:15pm

Mr Bean wrote: HOW
BACK IT UP

Can you stop asking obvious things? They go down to the planet, and send the information to their ship.

Speculation agian and WTF do you think they are gonna think when they see Suddley a mini-black hole pop up and however many ships eurge, They don't give a rats ass about the black hole if some ships poped up next to it
Back this up

Are they going to notice the bio-ships right away? I'd be more concerned about that black hole that going to ruin the planet, not a few tiny ships.

No but don't you think a black hole and a bunch of bio ships poping up would be more intresting?

It would at least cause hesistation for a few seconds giving them enough time to destroy the planet, and leave.

Prove it, Since when are SW sensors affected by Gravity?

The sensor pulse would be distorted by the extreme gravity. Have they ever scanned anything near a black hole?

Prove its the same thing and also I'd like to here when Voyager went inside a black hole

Quantum singularity for minurature black holes. Voyager was trapped in a black hole in "Parallax."

Instanly? Realy when? If they where so afriad of humans why not show up above earth, What they did not? Gee I wonder why? Don't they hate the board, Why not just show up at the borgs centeral core, What they did not? Gee I wonder why
This is diffrent from saying Hyperdrive don't work in ST

They did do it to Unimatrix 010. They wanted to infiltrate to discover their intentions before they destroyed Earth.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 05:16pm

Shadow wrote: That doesn't change their hatred of humans.

And this is stated where? All you've shown is paranoia and fear. Not that they'd attack the Empire.

They can read the Imperial's minds for information on it. This would make it easy to pick the right one.

Yes, Imperials know exactly where their galaxy is in comparison to the Milky Way.

They got the design.

And...?

Besides, there is no reason they'd attack the Empire. They didn't attack the Federation. All they did was prepare for an attack on THEMSELVES. They didn't attack any race except the Borg who attacked first.

8472 are isolists. They won't bother the Empire who are ALIEN HUMANS.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 05:20pm

Howedar wrote: By definition, if a solid object survived, it wasn't a black hole. Troll.

That just means they have found a way to stop this. It doesn't matter if it had a crack. It was still a black hole.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:And this is stated where? All you've shown is paranoia and fear. Not that they'd attack the Empire.

They would attack the Empire becausethey are humans, and far more powerful than the Federation.

Yes, Imperials know exactly where their galaxy is in comparison to the Milky Way.

They just need some information about the galxy itself, and it's neighbors.

Howedar wrote: By definition, if a solid object survived, it wasn't a black hole. Troll.

That just means they have found a way to stop this. It doesn't matter if it had a crack. It was still a black hole.

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:And this is stated where? All you've shown is paranoia and fear. Not that they'd attack the Empire.

They would attack the Empire becausethey are humans, and far more powerful than the Federation.

Yes, Imperials know exactly where their galaxy is in comparison to the Milky Way.

They just need some information about the galaxy itself, and it's neighbors.

The last question is anwered above.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 05:22pm

Shadow wrote: They would attack the Empire becausethey are humans, and far more powerful than the Federation.

Just like they attacked the Federation of hate. Oh wait, they prepared to attack because they thought the Federation would attack THEM.

You still haven't proved they hate the Empire so much they'd attack.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 05:25pm

Shadow wrote: That just means they have found a way to stop this. It doesn't matter if it had a crack. It was still a black hole.

Wrong. A Event horizon of a black hole can't have a crack. It's completly and totally impossible.

They would attack the Empire becausethey are humans, and far more powerful than the Federation.

Answered above.

They just need some information about the galaxy itself, and it's neighbors.

Just need some information?! There are 300 000 000 000 galaxies in this universe! That's assuming they're from the same universe!

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 05:38pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: Just like they attacked the Federation of hate. Oh wait, they prepared to attack because they thought the Federation would attack THEM.

You still haven't proved they hate the Empire so much they'd attack.

The Federation was peaceful, but the Empire is very violent and moe powerful. They probably would consider them more of a threat.

Wrong. A Event horizon of a black hole can't have a crack. It's completly and totally impossible.

It was still a black hole. That is a red herring.

Just need some information?! There are 300 000 000 000 galaxies in this universe! That's assuming they're from the same universe!

They can find the right with the galaxie's size, type, and the distance and size of its neighbors. I'm that there can't be two galaxies that have these exact characteristics.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 05:57pm

Shadow wrote: The Federation was peaceful, but the Empire is very violent and moe powerful. They probably would consider them more of a threat.

No, because The Empire doesn't know they exist, and can't touch them!

It was still a black hole. That is a red herring.

It is not! If its event horizon can be cracked, it can't be a black hole! A red herring would be the black hole was say small.

They can find the right with the galaxie's size, type, and the distance and size of its neighbors. I'm that there can't be two galaxies that have these exact characteristics.

That's still assuming they're in the same universe. They're not.[/i]

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-10 06:00pm

Shadow wrote:
Howedar wrote: By definition, if a solid object survived, it wasn't a black hole. Troll.
That just means they have found a way to stop this. It doesn't matter if it had a crack. It was still a black hole.

No. No its not. If a solid object survived contact with this "quantum singularity", then it was most certainly not a black hole.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 06:15pm

Ok let me answear what he said to me

Can you stop asking obvious things? They go down to the planet, and send the information to their ship.

Can you start answearing the obvious questions because you still have not
Ok Mighty-Morphing Bio Ships go to a planet and assuming the backwater does not blow them out of the sky or the shield stop them or the fact they send a message off there are big bio ships comming(Even the most primitve of worlds that would HAVE the navgation date they need would have access to the Holo-net(IE If I wanted to get maps of America here on earth and I was a big 9 foot tall alien I could easly take them from say new- gunine but then how likley are they to ahve maps of the America there?)
Second the Federation and Empire use diffrent navigatonal Data oh yeah and they are using *fluid space whatever the hell that is which is pretty far off from Hyperdrive, and the only thing they COULD get is Hypdrive Cordites and information
You still have not answeared the question of how they could even use it and oh your giving away your element of suprise right there going to any planet

Are they going to notice the bio-ships right away? I'd be more concerned about that black hole that going to ruin the planet, not a few tiny ships.

Would you please stop using red herrings, As its been said before a Quantum Singlatery is NOT a black hole and even more damming this is likley to show up as a high energy event on SW sensors thus focusing attention on that part of space and gee what do they see? Why 9 BIG bio-ships. Stop making out like the Bio ships are two feet tall they are at LEAST the size of Corvettes if not bigger, nine ships(Or more) ariving togther is sure as hell gonnan atrack attention and furthmore the little manover they pull looks awfuly similar to what? Oh Yes battle formation and what would any no-brain(To talk nothing of full and half brained commanders who already would have) commander do? Open Fire

They would attack the Empire becausethey are humans, and far more powerful than the Federation.

Red Herring, They don't even know the Empire existst

The sensor pulse would be distorted by the extreme gravity. Have they ever scanned anything near a black hole?

First agian its not a black hole and second acutal Yes they have,
2/3 of the Events in Crystal Star take place a stones throw away from a huge black hole(Orbiting reacurch center turned space-station) where they are more worried about the damage from Raditiaon then any distrotion thanks to the black hole

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-10 06:38pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:No, because The Empire doesn't know they exist, and can't touch them!

They would be concerned they might find out about them when they conquer the Federation.

It is not! If its event horizon can be cracked, it can't be a black hole! A red herring would be the black hole was say small.

It is a red herring because it was stated to be a black hole, and quantum singularity is the term for minurature black holes.

That's still assuming they're in the same universe. They're not.

If it was not the same universe, thw wormhole wouldn't link to it.

Howedar wrote:No. No its not. If a solid object survived contact with this "quantum singularity", then it was most certainly not a black hole.

They must have found a way to shield themselves from the gravitational effects. Their shields have blocked tractor beams.
[quote="Mr Bean]Can you start answearing the obvious questions because you still have not
Ok Mighty-Morphing Bio Ships go to a planet and assuming the backwater does not blow them out of the sky or the shield stop them or the fact they send a message off there are big bio ships comming(Even the most primitve of worlds that would HAVE the navgation date they need would have access to the Holo-net(IE If I wanted to get maps of America here on earth and I was a big 9 foot tall alien I could easly take them from say new- gunine but then how likley are they to ahve maps of the America there?)
Second the Federation and Empire use diffrent navigatonal Data oh yeah and they are using *fluid space whatever the hell that is which is pretty far off from Hyperdrive, and the only thing they COULD get is Hypdrive Cordites and information
You still have not answeared the question of how they could even use it and oh your giving away your element of suprise right there going to any planet [/quote]
They just come to Tatooine like any normal ship would, and send an S8472 down to the planet. Then pretend they're a criminal and steal someone's ship. After this, they transfer the ship's information, which would obviously contain amap, to the bio-ship. Then they leave.
Would you please stop using red herrings, As its been said before a

Quantum Singlatery is NOT a black hole and even more damming this is likley to show up as a high energy event on SW sensors thus focusing attention on that part of space and gee what do they see? Why 9 BIG bio-ships. Stop making out like the Bio ships are two feet tall they are at LEAST the size of Corvettes if not bigger, nine ships(Or more) ariving togther is sure as hell gonnan atrack attention and furthmore the little manover they pull looks awfuly similar to what? Oh Yes battle formation and what would any no-brain(To talk nothing of full and half brained commanders who already would have) commander do? Open Fire

Quantum singularity is real term to describe minurature black holes, and they are both used in "Parallax."

Red Herring, They don't even know the Empire existst

They will once a small fleet is attacking multiple nations.

First agian its not a black hole and second acutal Yes they have,
2/3 of the Events in Crystal Star take place a stones throw away from a huge black hole(Orbiting reacurch center turned space-station) where they are more worried about the damage from Raditiaon then any distrotion thanks to the black hole

They had absolutely no difficulty detecting something right next to a black hole?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-10 07:10pm

Shadow wrote: They must have found a way to shield themselves from the gravitational effects. Their shields have blocked tractor beams.

Yes, this is why Trekships have been repeatedly threatened by high gravity.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:01pm

I think we can shoot a hole in this whole "8472 has to form up to do any damage" argument fairly quickly. If anyone recalls from "Scorpion", Bioships were kicking the living shit out of Borg cubes WITHOUT using the planet-busting attack. They also travel in SWARMS. Last, they don't attack because they perceive a threat. They perceive ALL life outside of Fluidic Space as a threat, and thus their (PLAINLY STATED) intention is to purge all life from this galaxy. That would INCLUDE any Imperial ships unlucky enough to be here.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 08:05pm

You lack of knowledge of Quantum Mechanics is astounding,
Now the normal person knows jack shit about QM but you seem to be under the drugged out impression that you indeed have some knowledge of the subject, To further call things a read herring when its obvious to everyone here you have no #$^#^ clue what your talking about
Quantum singularity-Is yes a minture black hole, But then agian its a black hole at the QUANTUM level IE Atoms and compounds

http://www.eps.org/aps/meet/APR01/baps/ ... 10004.html
Containts a full definition, Its convulted but it fills our needs

Basicly your talking about a Black hole smaller than the size of head of a pin
This is not some awe inspinering massive thing. In fact its barley noticble and somewhat(In theory as we have not run across any in RL yet) very short lived

Lets say these Bio Ships are 100 meters long by 100 Meters Wide(A little on the low end but it makes the point ever so clear) Now our Quantum Signulatry lets say is 1mm by 1 mm(And even then thats rather big of a Quantum Sig)

Even given small ships without any rough callculations we can see the Ships are going to be around 10k bigger(Area wise) then the Quantum Sigularty nothing at all that will discrat the planet

Theres a bit of an education learn from it

Next

They would be concerned they might find out about them when they conquer the Federation

Realy? And they are watching the Federation how? Oh yes and why would the Empire care about a weak enemy that ran away?

I won't quote the next one but to simply say this, If it can have a cracked event Horizon its not a black hole, The EVENT Horizon is the point at which light can no longer escape the Holes Gravity thus the black part of the Black Hole. You can't have a crack in it any more than you can Melt Gold at 1 ATM and 10 *C

If it was not the same universe, thw wormhole wouldn't link to it

Where does this brillant bit of logic come from? Thats as close to cause I said so you come without saying it. Wormholes can do anything we want them to for the simple reason they are for the moment still an Invention of Sci-Fi and we have no idea what laws govern them

They must have found a way to shield themselves from the gravitational effects. Their shields have blocked tractor beams.

So has quite a bit of other things have blocked Tractor beams and you can't SHIELD yourself from Gravity no more than you can shield a human from having to breath

And this one I found funny

They just come to Tatooine like any normal ship would, and send an S8472 down to the planet. Then pretend they're a criminal and steal someone's ship. After this, they transfer the ship's information, which would obviously contain amap, to the bio-ship. Then they leave.
Would you please stop using red herrings, As its been said before a

Like any old Normal BIO Ship?
Hint to the wise SW does not have any Bio-Ships
You might as well say Well they can just land on the South Lawn of the White House Hop out and go for a stroll
Second you still have not provided any evidance they could even USE the COMPUTRIZED code!
Keep in mind they are not Running Windows 98 on those Bio-Ships they can't just pop a disk into the side of the organic goo and hope to read it, These are not PHISICAL things

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:20pm

you can't SHIELD yourself from Gravity no more than you can shield a human from having to breath

Mind explaining how repulsorlifts work, then?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 08:24pm

Edit!
I stand corrected

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-10 08:25pm

Mr Bean wrote:Yes
Repuslerlefts are an outsoucing of Shield Techology, They MOVE things or move them away from themselves they are not *anti-gravity

Pg. 3: Gravity-altering devices include repulsorlifts that allow unpowered antigravity flotation, tractor-beam projectors for remote applicaiton of force, and acceleration compensators that prevent pulverization of starship occupants during maneuvers. The gravitoactive constituents of these devices are subnuclear knots of space-time made in enourmous, unmanned power refineries encompassing black holes.

(ref: Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections)

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:26pm

Then indeed, repulsorlifts, in effect, SHIELD the source object from the effects of gravity. Thank you, HDS, for helping to drive my point home.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-10 08:31pm

Thanks HDS for clear that up misunderstanding of mine but there is still a matter of scale
Its one thing to float a few things of the ground all nice and dandy, Its Another to build a lift cradle cabble of pushing a Crusier up and away from a Planet(Ref-Krytos Trap) its quite another to shield yourself from a Black Hole which not even LIGHT can escape

Still a Matter of Scale

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:39pm

I think we can shoot a hole in this whole "8472 has to form up to do any damage" argument fairly quickly. If anyone recalls from "Scorpion", Bioships were kicking the living shit out of Borg cubes WITHOUT using the planet-busting attack. They also travel in SWARMS. Last, they don't attack because they perceive a threat. They perceive ALL life outside of Fluidic Space as a threat, and thus their (PLAINLY STATED) intention is to purge all life from this galaxy. That would INCLUDE any Imperial ships unlucky enough to be here.