StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Stuart wrote:
That was a typo; Ohiel was a cherubim.

"Cherubim" is the plural of "cherub". I suppose that is the way the language develops. It took only one successful SF author to make the mistaken "symbiote" a fully acceptable alternative to "symbiont".

Stuart wrote:That was a typo; Ohiel was a cherubim.

Thank you for the clarification, Stuart. We'll have to see why Lemuel thought Michael could make Lemuel a Chayot-Ha-Kadesh or convert Maion to Erelim. Or if that section gets edited some other way in the printed version.

And speaking about the printed version, is there a possibility of being able to buy the printed book from an outlet other than Amazon.com? I prefer to boycott them, and don't mind waiting a few days longer or paying a few extra dollars to receive things, if possible.

iidave wrote:Another thing about large humanoids. I'm not sure what the body density, muscle strength, bone hardness, etc of angels is so I'll use humans as an example.
We live in 3-dimensional space, so that means an 18 foot tall human is 3 times the height, width and depth of a 6' human. That makes him 27 times more massive. And weigh 4500-5000 pounds.
Unless he was tip-toeing the ground would shake with each step, he would leave large (and deep) footsteps on any non-reinforced surface and could fall through floors not designed for pressure from his feet.
He would also have 27 times the amount of blood, so drinking 1 litre bottle of booze would be equal to drinking a little less than a single shot. 17 pounds of beef would be to him what a 10 ounce stake is to a 6' tall human.
Assuming the same strength-to-weight ratio as a normal human, the giant would also be monstrously strong. He could lift over two tons. Not nearly enought to lift a tank, but strong enough to bend the barrel.
.30 cal rounds would injure him less than a .22 injures a human. .50 cal MG rounds would injure less than 5.56mm (probably about as much as .221 fireball). .50 Beowulf doesn't have enough penetration to seriously endanger internal organs and may not penetrate the skull. Abigor's 30mm RARDEN rifle would kill one easily .
Now try to do the same math for a 60-foot tall human.

Well, let's remember the gas pockets inside the angels. They are for their size considerably less dense compared to humans.
Another thing is that strength and size do not scale up in linear fashion even when there is no such issues to handle.
Elephants are for example are weak compared to humans relative to size.

About blood though... Since angels are considerably larger and still walk upright like humans... They have wicked bloodpressure, much like giraffe.

iidave wrote:Another thing about large humanoids. I'm not sure what the body density, muscle strength, bone hardness, etc of angels is so I'll use humans as an example.
We live in 3-dimensional space, so that means an 18 foot tall human is 3 times the height, width and depth of a 6' human. That makes him 27 times more massive. And weigh 4500-5000 pounds.
Unless he was tip-toeing the ground would shake with each step, he would leave large (and deep) footsteps on any non-reinforced surface and could fall through floors not designed for pressure from his feet.

Indeed. To give him the same structural strength relative to his size that a human would possess, you have to triple the strength of his muscles and bones, preferably without increasing the density of his body much to speak of. If you do increase density you need even greater increases in structural strength to match the heavier weight.

However, because his feet are nine times the surface area of a normal human's, his ground pressure is only three times what a human's would be. The difference in ground pressure between an 18 foot angel and a 6 foot man is a factor of three, the same as the difference between a 200 pound man standing on both feet and a 300 pound man standing on one leg. And I have seen 300-pound men standing on one leg; they don't leave footprints in linoleum or wood.

Assuming the same strength-to-weight ratio as a normal human, the giant would also be monstrously strong. He could lift over two tons. Not nearly enought to lift a tank, but strong enough to bend the barrel.

The strength of his muscles will have to scale with his volume or he's a cripple compared to a human. You get a factor of nine increase because the cross section of his muscles and bones goes up with the square of his size; you have to get an added factor of three from increased structural strength of the materials making up his body. Which further increases his resistance to firearm damage.

nobody_really wrote:

Stuart wrote:That was a typo; Ohiel was a cherubim.

And speaking about the printed version, is there a possibility of being able to buy the printed book from an outlet other than Amazon.com? I prefer to boycott them, and don't mind waiting a few days longer or paying a few extra dollars to receive things, if possible.

I was able to purchase one of his other books through Barnes and Noble. They do not stock it though.

So the size of the angel will mean that to compensate for his size, his bones and muscles would have to be a lot tougher to make up the difference. Which is why the "giant killer ants" of B-movies are ridiculous; they won't be supported by their own exoskeleton without major modifications. As a result, the bigger angels will be really tough to kill using conventional means.

Pity we won't be using .50, 30mm or even 75mm machine guns to kill the big ones. We'll just switch to 120mm cannon HEAD, as Satan's personal guard found out the hard way.

Of course, the majority of angels being in the range of 6-12', means we can kill a lot of them with heavy machine guns. When we get to Yahweh, assuming his size is proportionate to his position, we'll just use cruise missiles. Or daisy cutters.

Nah, I think the MOAB would be better suited for God-smiting.

Barrigana wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:It also raises interesting questions about how one would go about 'promoting' an angel...

When promoted an angel fills up with pride.

It might be that after all. We have already seen that angels can undergo significant physical changes over long periods of time. According to Memnon some of the daemons alive today were around during the Great Celestial War. At that time they all looked like angels do now. After Satan split off, the angels who went with him gradually changed in form to look like daemons do now. This was not just a matter of change over generations, but a permanent physical change to individuals which were already adults. If an angel can gradually turn into a daemon as a result of joining Satan in hell, it would not be implausible for a lower-ranking angel to grow in size after being promoted.

Also consider that angels and daemons have DNA which is very similar to that of humans. If I recall correctly from some comments in the first book, they're more closely related to us than chimpanzees are. Nearly identical DNA does not make sense when you consider the vast physical differences between humans and daemons and angels. You would not expect a creature with six limbs, feathers, different colored blood, lizard-like ability to regenerate limbs, and the ability to throw lightning bolts or inexplicably well focused sonic bursts to be nearly identical genetically to a human.

Either angels and demons have the ability to undergo slow shape-shifts, or there is some effect at work in heaven and hell that can physically reform living creatures. Possibly highly power individuals like Yaweh and Satan can control the effect over time to shape the inhabitants of the realm. This would also help explain how exotic one of a kind creatures like Wuffles were created. If this kind of effect in in place it's probably due to the same as yet undefined outside the universe mechanism that causes souls to be reborn in new bodies in Hell.

You know what would be just perfect for God-Smiting? Thermonuclear weapons. First we smoke Him out to where there's no collateral damage. Then we fry His ass so thoroughly, all that would be left of Him is radioactive dust. Leaves a nice, clear message to everybody else; when you try to **** over the humans, they **** you over back and ten times worse.

You know, all of this talk about the mechanics of angelic flight did give me one amusing thought about the situation in the series: We really are dealing with a lot of self-important gasbags, aren't we?

Yes we are, so let's pop them!

Saint_007 wrote:So the size of the angel will mean that to compensate for his size, his bones and muscles would have to be a lot tougher to make up the difference. Which is why the "giant killer ants" of B-movies are ridiculous; they won't be supported by their own exoskeleton without major modifications.

Well, if they are, then it will make them pretty damn tough... which, as a rule, they generally are. That's the trick- giant monsters aren't scary except when they're made out of inhumanly tough materials, at which point they become even more dangerous than their size would lead us to believe.

As a result, the bigger angels will be really tough to kill using conventional means.

So were the bigger demons- remember the Greater Herald that survived (sort of, as a quadruple amputee) from taking sustained fire from a tank battalion? The engineers had to put it out of its misery with demo charges. And I seem to recall it being written that Satan might have survived the first antiship missile strike, if it hadn't been for the second one blowing apart his head.

Saint_007 wrote:You know what would be just perfect for God-Smiting? Thermonuclear weapons. First we smoke Him out to where there's no collateral damage. Then we fry His ass so thoroughly, all that would be left of Him is radioactive dust. Leaves a nice, clear message to everybody else; when you try to **** over the humans, they **** you over back and ten times worse.

We'll finally see if the Buchanan Brothers were right
http://www.atomicplatters.com/more.php?id=98_0_1_0_M

Well, after we turn Yaw-Yaw into a smoldering pile of ash, they will be wrong!

The gas bags have always bothered me- it seems they'd have to be rather large to have a non-negligible effect on lift. Being rather generous and assume the gas bags are 4x4x4 feet in volume. That is equal to 1.8 cubic meters. Assuming STP, the density of air is 1.276kg/m^3. The density of hydrogen is 0.089kg/m^3 .

(1.8m^3*1.2763kg/m^3)*g-(1.8m^3*0.089kg/m^3)*g gives us 22N, or a paltry 4.71lbf ... rather inadequate for lifting purposes.


Or, working backwards and calculating the volume needed to lift 200lbs:

200lbf = 888.6N

(X m^3*1.2763kg/m^3)*g-(X m^3*0.089kg/m^3)*g=889.6 N
X m^3 (1.2763kg/m^3- *0.089kg/m^3)*g=889.6 N
X m^3 = 889.6 N / ((1.2763kg/m^3- 0.089kg/m^3)*g)
X m^3 = 76m^3 or 2698ft^3 - or a cube 13 feet/side, which would still look rather ludicrous on an 8 feet angel even if we account for the gas bag being 1/4th that size supplying only partial lift.

Perhaps we can use mind control or whatever to explain why this has never been depicted in art?

Ellindsey wrote:

Barrigana wrote:Either angels and demons have the ability to undergo slow shape-shifts, or there is some effect at work in heaven and hell that can physically reform living creatures. Possibly highly power individuals like Yaweh and Satan can control the effect over time to shape the inhabitants of the realm. This would also help explain how exotic one of a kind creatures like Wuffles were created. If this kind of effect in in place it's probably due to the same as yet undefined outside the universe mechanism that causes souls to be reborn in new bodies in Hell.

During the hospital conversation, Stu mentioned the "rotten egg" smell. That's hydrogen sulfide, and if it's strong enough to smell, one should really be getting out of the area. It's HIGHLY toxic and quick acting.

Yet the demons weren't dying.

Hypothesis? The toxic effects of H2S and the natural healing/regeneration of demons fought a duel to the 'death' (so to speak) and their physical changes are the partial result of that.

Just a thought...

Ed.

Saint_007 wrote:You know what would be just perfect for God-Smiting? Thermonuclear weapons. First we smoke Him out to where there's no collateral damage. Then we fry His ass so thoroughly, all that would be left of Him is radioactive dust. Leaves a nice, clear message to everybody else; when you try to **** over the humans, they **** you over back and ten times worse.

Good idea, but capturing him alive would be better.
Think about that: we need to learn more about Angels and Demons. Who better than God Himself to teach you?
Also, we need intel on the Others and what lies beyond Minos Gate. Memnon knows something about that, but I think the voice in his head scares him too much; I don't expect Yahweh to be so scared.

Imagine trying to cage and tame Godzilla. Doing the same to Yahweh will be worse since (in Salvationverse) Godzilla has more compassion, empathy, and morals.

I said 'alive', not 'intact'

While unlikly to happen the image of God being put on trial is a damn awsome one, not to mention it throws a slight spanner in Mickeys plot, as he seems to be working on the assumption that we'll instantly cruise missile him like we did with Satan.

But still, the thought of god standing trial for "Crimes against Humanity" or even a more hilarious version of "The Man Who Sued God" does strike me as a potential crowning moment for Pathentocide after all it's one thing to slay the dagon, it's another thing to torture it with legal proceedings before execution

OmegaChief wrote:But still, the thought of god standing trial for "Crimes against Humanity" or even a more hilarious version of "The Man Who Sued God" does strike me as a potential crowning moment for Pantheocide after all it's one thing to slay the dragon, it's another thing to torture it with legal proceedings before execution

I could agree with you, although I would prefer that Yahweh's sentence would be to suffer ridicule as long as it amused us, and then hitting him with the cruise missiles after he's finally detoxed from the endless praise.

I'd guess that Yah Yah would be ruled mentally unfit to stand trial. He seems to be about as stable nitroglycerin to me.

That being said, I have no idea if such a defense is even valid in a military proceeding.

Nope, all trying that defense gets you is a .50 headache

But who will play Dev- I mean, God's Advocate?
Unless he decides to defend himself and face the saying surrounding that.

I am supremely confident they could find a good team of lawyers somewhere in the pit of hell.
Johnny Cochran comes to mind.