Game of Thrones Season 3 (Spoilers)

[Crown]

Nitpick: Gold cloaks.

Rebuke accepted.

[Flagg]

I think few people will ever realize the brilliance of a scene in which two of the most incompatible characters of the show, Tywin Lannister and his grandson Joffrey, are essentially forced to interact with each other out of the necessity of their jobs.

No I got it. Best scene of the entire season.

[Vympel]

Nitpick: Gold cloaks.

Rebuke accepted.

Why? Kingsgaurd are white cloaks

[Thanas]

.....Yeah, I'm an idiot who can't distinguish between the guard and the kingsguard...

[Patroklos]

And that just makes Joffrey that much more powerless, as Tyrion had the gold cloaks bought out from under him by Tywin so they are no help to him either.

[Scrib]

Also, nice guilt trip by Shae, is she afraid of losing her meal ticket or something?

I can't fucking stand this change wrt Shae. All the nuance, all of Tyrion's problems are gone replaced with this stereotypical love story. It's so sappy, it's almost worse than Robb and his PoliSci major wife (whose scenes I had to skip past this episode simply because I knew they would fail to achieve the desired result).

I suspect that she's legitimately angry because she's in a bad spot. However, the issues in the books that made that spot even worse or made it impossible for her to just leave are not present. Tyrion is not domineering, he doesn't lock her up with savages or take her jewels -her only real source of wealth- (in fact, we don't see Tyrion pay her at all on the show do we? Especially not after their "love story takes off) so I'm not sure how to feel about this. Despite it not being shown Tyrion is paying her right? If not she can leave. She's well aware of the situation.
Spoiler

Perhaps this is a set-up for some sort of betrayal on her part?

The White cloaks might (all 5 of them) as it is their duty, but the Red cloaks (Lannister guards) sure as shit won't. Jofferey, just like his mother and uncles has zero independent power outside of the name Lannister. He can stamp his feet and call himself King all he likes, but he's only King because of his grandfather.

Fuck, even the white cloaks aren't guaranteed. The one that Pod killed last season was perhaps the one who was firmly in Joff's camp, the rest Tywin can probably sway, iirc most of them seemed more loyal to Cersei and one was an outright coward. He's fucked really, unless he reaches out to the Tyrells who are probably wary of him, and doing so would weaken the one person that is completely on his side. So...we're back to he's fucked

[Lord Revan]

and White Cloaks betraying the king isn't outright unheard of that's after all the source of Jaimie Lannister's "kingslayer" title, though granted it's unlikely as member of the king's guard betraying the king is considered a major dishonor even if the king did deserve it.

[Scrib]

No one is asking them to shank Joffrey. Just not to obey him or restrain him. For his own good of course.

[PKRudeBoy]

Plus, of course, the king is still a minor, with Cersei having the regency until his majority. Now, people will still generally obey him, but other then maybe the Kingsguard, if Tywin or Cersei countermands an order it's not going to happen. Such as when Tyrion (while acting in Tywins' stead), orders the beating of Sansa to stop, it fucking stops.

[Ralin]

Were there Lannisters and gold cloaks present when Tyrion did that? I can't remember for sure, but in the show it seemed more that Tyrion had people (Bronn) on hand ready and eager to do violence on anyone who tried to countermand him. Shock and awe, as it were.

The Kingsguard doesn't really count for much at this point. All of its seriously skilled knights are dead, dismissed or crippled. Aerys' Kingsguard would have obeyed Joffery and probably killed Bronn for his trouble.

[PKRudeBoy]

Tyrion had only Bronn while it appeared that at least most of the the Kingsguard was in the background. At the same time, I would have to agree with you Aerys's Kingsguard would absolutely slaughter Joffery's Kingsguard. With Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower, any of them would probably slaughter the entirety of Joffery's Kingsguard by themselves, especially after Ser Jaime lost his hand. Ser Arthur Dayne, for one was someone that Jaime Lannister, one of the most arrogant character's I have ever seen in literature, considered him as high above himself as he thought he was above everyone else. That is why I would think that Eddard Stark would have a reputation as a swordfighter, since, while he may only be above average in and of himself, he killed the finest knight of his generation, even if it was 2 on 1.

[Ralin]

And more to the point, they would have obeyed without question.

[spoiler="A Feast for Crows]I just got through Jaime's flashback to standing guard with Derry while Aerys raped his queen after burning one of his Hands[/spoiler]

Joffery's Kingsguard was (mostly) big on obeying too...when it came to beating teenage girls. Aerys' Kingsguard would have obeyed period, I think, no matter how many men Tyrion had with him.

That is why I would think that Eddard Stark would have a reputation as a swordfighter, since, while he may only be above average in and of himself, he killed the finest knight of his generation, even if it was 2 on 1.

I'd never thought of that, but good point.

[Scrib]

That is why I would think that Eddard Stark would have a reputation as a swordfighter, since, while he may only be above average in and of himself, he killed the finest knight of his generation, even if it was 2 on 1.

It may be why he'd have a reputation, because such things aren't always earned but he's not shown to be anything but an average fighter. The event was unwitnessed though, that doesn't help rumors.

Martin has said that Ned was much better at strategy than the fighting. IIRC the way he put it was that Robert was the Warrior, Ned the tactician. I suppose that Jon Arryn was the politician, that's where he did his best work after all. (Allow me to wax nostalgic again about this dream team).

Ned himself has said that he would have died if not for Howland Reed.It's quite possible that someone stabbed him in the back. In a land where honor is valued I don't really see how one's claim to fame can be "Some other guy saved my ass and then we tag-teamed a single knight,one of the most honorable in the realm, because we couldn't take him alnoe". In fact that, and the aforementioned lack of witnesses, is a possible reason that there are no songs about this. Dayne was held in really high regard and it probably wouldn't go over well.

[Terralthra]

Tyrion had only Bronn while it appeared that at least most of the the Kingsguard was in the background. At the same time, I would have to agree with you Aerys's Kingsguard would absolutely slaughter Joffery's Kingsguard. With Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower, any of them would probably slaughter the entirety of Joffery's Kingsguard by themselves, especially after Ser Jaime lost his hand. Ser Arthur Dayne, for one was someone that Jaime Lannister, one of the most arrogant character's I have ever seen in literature, considered him as high above himself as he thought he was above everyone else. That is why I would think that Eddard Stark would have a reputation as a swordfighter, since, while he may only be above average in and of himself, he killed the finest knight of his generation, even if it was 2 on 1.

Wasn't it actually seven on three? Eddard Stark and six companions vs. three of the Kingsguard: Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, is how I remember it. Howland Reed was one of the companions, and only he and Eddard survived the fight.

[Crazedwraith]

It was. It's implied the last part of the fight was have been Dayne vs Ned and Reed though.

In fact, for all we know it was Reed that killed Dayne. I don't think we ever the specifics from Ned. He just told Bran that Dayne was 'the greatest knight of their time and he would have killed me if not for Howland Reed'

[Mr Bean]

It was. It's implied the last part of the fight was have been Dayne vs Ned and Reed though.

In fact, for all we know it was Reed that killed Dayne. I don't think we ever the specifics from Ned. He just told Bran that Dayne was 'the greatest knight of their time and he would have killed me if not for Howland Reed'

Remember the lack of witnesses do you think Eddard Stark would be the one to shout his accomplishments to the skies above? More likely that not seven marched out ahead of their men and two came back. I'm guessing Eddard came back and said in essence nothing except the bare essentials. There were no bards on hand or singers to tell mention of it. And more importantly for our sake Eddard had just watched his sister die. You think he'd be in the bragging mood when he's lost five good friends and his sister on the same day?

[Crazedwraith]

It was. It's implied the last part of the fight was have been Dayne vs Ned and Reed though.

In fact, for all we know it was Reed that killed Dayne. I don't think we ever the specifics from Ned. He just told Bran that Dayne was 'the greatest knight of their time and he would have killed me if not for Howland Reed'

Remember the lack of witnesses do you think Eddard Stark would be the one to shout his accomplishments to the skies above? More likely that not seven marched out ahead of their men and two came back. I'm guessing Eddard came back and said in essence nothing except the bare essentials. There were no bards on hand or singers to tell mention of it. And more importantly for our sake Eddard had just watched his sister die. You think he'd be in the bragging mood when he's lost five good friends and his sister on the same day?

Err... yeah? Sorry. I'm not sure what you point is? I just said we didn't know exactly what happened. Thanks for expanding on that... I guess.

[Terralthra]

I think his point is that while the argument has been made that Ser Arthur Dayne was stabbed in the back in a 2-on-1, and thus Eddard wouldn't want to brag about it because it was dishonorable, it's likely knowing Eddard as we do, that he just wouldn't brag about it, regardless. Even if it were him and two midgets vs. the entire Kingsguard and he won, he would likely not say much, because he's Eddard Stark, and he doesn't brag.

[Mr Bean]

Err... yeah? Sorry. I'm not sure what you point is? I just said we didn't know exactly what happened. Thanks for expanding on that... I guess.

My reference is towards the theory of the Eddard Stark "reputation" Dayne was hailed as one of the if not best then THE best swordsman during Aerys reign. Eddard went up against him and survived but the fight was in such an obscure location and Eddard Stark such a natural silent type he's not hailed as the next great thing.

[Vaporous]

The most entertaining theory is that
Spoiler

Howland Reed warged into Arthur Dayne, and scrambled his brain enough for Ned to kill him.

[Sathanas]

Martin has said that Barristan and Dayne are about equal, however with Dawn Dayne would have the edge.

[Surlethe]

Fuck the torturing. I don't give a shit about Theon anymore. He's wasting valuable screentime where we could be seeing Julius Caesar Mance Rayder mustering to attack Castle Black or Tywin being fucking awesome or Jaime learning to fence left-handed or dragons burning shit or Roose Trollton preparing to give Jaime's regards to Robb or a billion other cool useful things. They should have done like GRRM did in the books and just disappear Theon for a fucking thousand pages, because there's no plot moving forward there at all.

[Sathanas]

Fuck the torturing. I don't give a shit about Theon anymore. He's wasting valuable screentime where we could be seeing Julius Caesar Mance Rayder mustering to attack Castle Black or Tywin being fucking awesome or Jaime learning to fence left-handed or dragons burning shit or Roose Trollton preparing to give Jaime's regards to Robb or a billion other cool useful things. They should have done like GRRM did in the books and just disappear Theon for a fucking thousand pages, because there's no plot moving forward there at all.

I agree, bit over it to be honest. Maybe they have a contract with Alfie Allen for x seasons?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Random theory - it might be an interesting twist/departure from the books for Rob's wife to be an agent of the Lanisters. The letter thing kinda tips it off.
(The producers did say that the third season would make some big changes compared to the books ).

In addition to the letter writing hints, A Stark heir would make for a big departure from the books. (Where the girl's mother kept her infertile with herbal remedies).

[Ralin]

Random theory - it might be an interesting twist/departure from the books for Rob's wife to be an agent of the Lanisters. The letter thing kinda tips it off.
(The producers did say that the third season would make some big changes compared to the books ).

It's pretty heavily hinted in the books that she was a Lannister agent, albeit an unwitting one. Remember, her parents were Lannister bannermen.
Spoiler

And if memory serves it was mentioned in Dance that her mother forced an abortion on her?