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I've never found dog based maintainance to be a chore. Yeah, you've got to exercise your dog and groom him and feed him, but is that a bad thing? Dog walking is good exercise for both the dog and the person, plus it is a good way to get out there and interact with other people. I've met alot of very cute and interesting girls while out walking the dog, because any dog with the least bit of hop in his step is a chick magnet. The beer commercial about Wingdog conveys a profound truth. Brushing and bathing a dog doesn't take all that long and filling a food dish and keeping a water dish takes a tremendous amount of seconds out of a persons day. Yeah, you got to pay attention to the dog and keep him company, and no you can't leave a dog at home while on vacation, but I don't see how that is an unreasonable burden or counts as a black mark toward them. Dogs are living social beings, after all, not games that you can turn off when you are bored with them. They require personal responsibility. I have a hard time seeing how that is a bad thing.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Dogs are living social beings, after all, not games that you can turn off when you are bored with them. They require personal responsibility. I have a hard time seeing how that is a bad thing.

I think theski hit the nail on the head with that one. Some people just don't like personal responsibility. The really sad thing is that they generally have kids eventually anyway, and they become the sort of parent who dumps his kid off on relatives (or a long-suffering wife) on a regular basis so he can go out drinking. These types will try to make kids fit into their existing lifestyles rather than altering their lifestyles to suit the kids.

Darth Wong wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:Dogs are living social beings, after all, not games that you can turn off when you are bored with them. They require personal responsibility. I have a hard time seeing how that is a bad thing.

I think theski hit the nail on the head with that one. Some people just don't like personal responsibility. The really sad thing is that they generally have kids eventually anyway, and they become the sort of parent who dumps his kid off on relatives (or a long-suffering wife) on a regular basis so he can go out drinking. These types will try to make kids fit into their existing lifestyles rather than altering their lifestyles to suit the kids.

Exactly.. why should a dog in need of attention or a child in need of some love get in the way of a night out drinking with the guys

In the long run, dogs are more interactive a more fun. If you take the "right kind" of vacation, the dog can come with you. I've taken dogs camping and it is a blast to have the dog keep up with you on trails.

DW makes a good point; sure a dog or a kid can be a pain in the butt sometimes, and you have to accomodate them, but the overall payoff is worth the effort, IMO.

Any 21 year old males that would have a child instead of a cat I find bewildering. I certainly wouldn't want one as a pet.

It's funny, a dog is alot like a guy in his needs. They need to eat, but they really like to snack; they like hanging out with their boys; they like having bits of them rubbed; they appreciate a fine ass, not to mention interesting and funny smells. I can associate with all of that.

As much as I regard myself as a flag waving dog-person (beating some furries off as I say that) I can fully understand the appeal of a cat. I simply can't resist picking the things up and giving them a stroke when I see them, they're cute little blighters. But at the end of the day I never really get the feeling with a cat that it gives a damn about me, it's just mutual advantage at work... kinda feels mercenary. I don't feel that with a dog, and however that might be a trick on my emotions, it's a trick I'm more than happy to have played on me.

I remember one specific incident when I was a kid.

I was running through the house (as kids do), and I happened to catch my leg on the sofa. This hurt quite a bit as I clocked myself on the kneecap, so I did what most kids would do in the situation; cried out in pain and fell down.

What's the very next thing that happens? My dog (who was in the kitchen, with my parents) comes running up to see if I'm okay.

We're not talking a delayed response here, we're talking instantly. Beat my parents to it by a good five seconds.

For that alone, Dogs>>>>>>>Cats. At least in my eyes.

Don't think you'd ever see a cat run to your aid like that.

Dogs are truly social animals. My dog whimpers when Rebecca and I have an argument. We're not even yelling at each other, but he can tell that there's a problem. Dogs actually care about things like "how is my family getting along?"

namdoolb wrote:I remember one specific incident when I was a kid.

I was running through the house (as kids do), and I happened to catch my leg on the sofa. This hurt quite a bit as I clocked myself on the kneecap, so I did what most kids would do in the situation; cried out in pain and fell down.

What's the very next thing that happens? My dog (who was in the kitchen, with my parents) comes running up to see if I'm okay.

We're not talking a delayed response here, we're talking instantly. Beat my parents to it by a good five seconds.

For that alone, Dogs>>>>>>>Cats. At least in my eyes.

Don't think you'd ever see a cat run to your aid like that.

That is a perfect example of Pack mentality.. you are a packmate.. Cats would just wait till you are dead. Then scruff your hair..

Cats are a much better choice if space is limited; though some dog breeds are small enough to live comfortably in an apartment, I've never heard of a dog that's quieter than a cat, which is another consideration there unless you don't particularly like your neighbors.

As far as loyalty and bonding and all that goes, domestic cats are simply not social animals and won't bond the way a dog will. The only good relationship a cat will ever have with another cat is with its mother (even its litter-mates are rivals for food and space). If a kitten is socialized to humans in the right time, it will have the ability to bond with humans the way it did with its mother (my mom's two cats literally follow her around the house while she's home), but that's not nearly as complex a relationship as the kind a dog will form with other dogs in his pack. There's no cooperation there, no give-and-take. Cats are capable of affection (though since they're not social animals, they lack the most of the psychological tools dogs and humans have to express it), but to a cat, affection isn't about cooperation, it's about mom feeding him.

Dogs and humans, on the other hand, seem to be made for each other. They're both omniverous pack-hunters with a male-dominated social hierarchy. They understand each other (10,000 years of selective breeding of dogs has probably helped this along). A dog with human intelligence probably wouldn't be all that different from a human. If dogs had opposable thumbs and weren't so good at what they do already, they'd probably be candidates for evolving sentience on their own.

EDIT: In some situations, domestic cats do become social animals, such as with colonies of feral and abandoned domestic cats in cities. They sleep together for mutual protection, but they hunt independently. Some of the behaviors they adopt in these colonies echoes the behaviors of the social big cats: if one male overthrows another for dominance, the first thing it will try to do is kill all the old dominant male's kittens, so that the females will go into heat. Lions do the exact same thing.

Cats definitely taste better, especially with white wine. (j/k)

RedImperator wrote: As far as loyalty and bonding and all that goes, domestic cats are simply not social animals and won't bond the way a dog will. The only good relationship a cat will ever have with another cat is with its mother (even its litter-mates are rivals for food and space).

In my experience cats, even those that you haven't raised since kittenhood tend to pick one particular person in the house and form a bond with them. That of course doesn't stop them from mooching affection and food off anyone who'll give it to them, but there's some people they just see as their particular person. For instance my old cat Ginger wouldn't go near anyone but my brother Eric (but then she was rather extreme). Lance was latched rather firmly onto my mother (even when I was the one who fed him). Our current pair, Smokey and Midnight are both very friendly animals who'll come up and snuggle with you if you give them half a chance.. hell they've even tried to make nice with my Father who just doesn't get on with cats.

Smokey and Midnight were from the same litter and generally from what I've heard having two kittens at once tends to be a good way to socialize a cat. It certainly seems to have worked with mine. And when Ginger had to be put down after she had her stroke Lance was wandering the house meowing and checking all her usual hangouts to try and find her.

I own both a dog and a cat, so I think I'm qualified to have an informed opinion, and I have to say, I don't understand how people can prefer having a syncophantic, smelly, dumb, shedding, big, wet-nosed, incapable animal over a small, sweet, cuddly, independent one. I personally prefer cats a great deal more than dogs, and this isn't just due to my experience taking care of my dog (who is dumber than a box of rocks). And DW, don't give me that "people who don't like taking care of dogs will make bad parents" BS. I've had a dog for 11 years, and I helped a great deal in the raising of my baby sister, so I realize what sort of sacrifices and compromises have to be made with a child, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing or capable or too selfish to do so. I just prefer cats.

This would be an excellent time to point out that a person's opinion of the likeability of an animal has nothing to do with inherent superiority. Some people like hanging out with Paris Hilton, after all.

Superman wrote:Communication:

Dogs: About 10 distinct vocalizations for dogs.

Wrong. Dogs are capable of much more than just ten different sounds in regards to communications.

You ever wonder what that tail wagging or the way they cock their head, etc means? It's one reason why they adapted so well to us; because they can read our facial expressions very well.

Is this an opinion piece, or are we actually trying to debate the inherent and quantifiable superiority of one animal over the other? I like both cats and dogs personally, but for very different reasons. They behave very differently and neither species is better or worse than the other.

MKSheppard wrote:

Superman wrote:Communication:

Dogs: About 10 distinct vocalizations for dogs.

Wrong. Dogs are capable of much more than just ten different sounds. You ever wonder what that tail wagging or the way they cock their head, etc means? It's one reason why they adapted so well to us; because they can read our facial expressions very well.

Nice job Shep.. The Dog Whisper talks tons about how they can read our emotions and body language.. plus that NOSE..

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Is this an opinion piece, or are we actually trying to debate the inherent and quantifiable superiority of one animal over the other? I like both cats and dogs personally, but for very different reasons. They behave very differently and neither species is better or worse than the other.

I believe the intent is to debate quantifiable differences between the two, and how it relates to human companionship. in that vein, a dog always wins over a cat, if for no other reason than a dog is always genuinely concerned about the well-being of the pack (ie. you) and will actively do whatever it can/knows to do for the well-being of said pack.

Why the hell would you want a child that never grows up, just gets older but not smarter until it dies? If you want to practice for raising kids, fine, get an irritating needy dog, but otherwise, why would you want one? I don't mean all dogs, just the particularly irritating ones. On the question of intelligence, are we correcting for size here? Like I said earlier, I haven't met a dog the size of a cat that was good for anything but yapping or sitting in a purse. Domesticate the Puma, then we'll talk.

I'm not claiming cats are inherently the better pet, I just think dog people don't give them enough credit.

DesertFly wrote:I own both a dog and a cat, so I think I'm qualified to have an informed opinion, and I have to say, I don't understand how people can prefer having a syncophantic, smelly, dumb, shedding, big, wet-nosed, incapable animal over a small, sweet, cuddly, independent one. I personally prefer cats a great deal more than dogs, and this isn't just due to my experience taking care of my dog (who is dumber than a box of rocks).

Lol.
Why is it that a dog is considered syncophantic by you?

Do people who love you appear syncophantic?
I truly don't get that vibe from dogs, so I struggle to understand.

Alan Bolte wrote:Why the hell would you want a child that never grows up, just gets older but not smarter until it dies? If you want to practice for raising kids, fine, get an irritating needy dog, but otherwise, why would you want one? I don't mean all dogs, just the particularly irritating ones. On the question of intelligence, are we correcting for size here? Like I said earlier, I haven't met a dog the size of a cat that was good for anything but yapping or sitting in a purse. Domesticate the Puma, then we'll talk.

I'm not claiming cats are inherently the better pet, I just think dog people don't give them enough credit.

Sure, we'll consider the puma, as soon as it becomes a common type of housepet.
then we'll talk.

I don't give cats "enough credit" because they don't deserve it, imo. Cat-people tend to over-fawn upon their pets and waaaay over-anthropomorphize everything they do. witness garfield.

Dogs are incapable?

Maybe the little Paris-Hilton-esque fluff-nuggets, but in a comparison to cats?

I love cats but the biggest thing they have going for them is convenience. They don't get in the way of your life. That's about it. A cat will not deter an intruder by its mere prescence; nor will it even attempt to protect you or your property from strangers.

On farms and ranches, dogs are invaluable as sentries and for herding animals, and scaring off predators. Farm cats can keep the vermin population down, but they are meat on the table for something like a coyote.

Small dogs of modern suburbia are frequently seen as irritants, but a lot of the small terrier breeds were originally bred for hunting vermin as well-- gophers, rats, et al. The Dachshund, the Corgi... you know why they have long hotdog bodies and stumpy legs? They were intended to go into holes and root out burrowing animals including badgers.

Cats are great pets, but to say that they are somehow more "useful" or "capable" than a dog? Seriously. They are easier and more conveneient, but... their utility is limited compared to canids.

I don't get the 'dogs have better sense of smell, therefore dogs > cats'. If you're comparing them species vs species, then clearly its a draw. Both animals have adapted spectacularly, granted with some considerable assistance, to thrive in the modern human dominated world. The vast majority of Earth's species have not.

However, if you're comparing them as pets, then it really does come down to circumstances. If you live on a farm or somesuch, have large open spaces, and can easily provide the walking/playing etc needs of a dog, then a dog would probably be better for you. However if, like me, you live in a more urban area, and no one has the time to repeatedly walk a dog, or perhaps if you have small children, then a cat may well be better.

Of course, a lot of it is personal taste. I happen to think dogs are, on the whole, smelly, unclean and often frankly disgusting animals (the comment about someones dog eating its own shit comes to mind). When I visit a dog owners house, and said dog runs out and decides it would be fun to jump on me and try and slobber on my face, I find it annoying when said dog owner says 'Oh don't worry he's only being playful'. Maybe so, but I'm not partial to a portion of dog slobber over my face, and neither do I find the dogs attempt to fuck my leg particularly amusing.

I think that Cats, on the other hand, are more or less the perfect urban pet. Most need little attention, but are engaging when you choose to give them some. My cat has been taught to play fetch, can open doors and also chases dogs away (I shit you not. That dog ran like hell as well!).

Both cats and dogs have a naturally cute appearance (moreso for cats than dogs for me), but it seems to me that the terms of having a pet cat are decided by the owner, whilst with a dog it seems the other way around. Regardless of my opinion of each creature, I'd say that dogs make better rural pets, whilst cats make better urban pets.

Since I live in the city, cats are greatly preferred over dogs. Apartments are not good places to raise a big dog in...

And on the subject of social intelligence, I have three cats who regularly hang around me, not to ask for a pet, not to ask for food, not to ask for any bit of attention, but to just be with me. They know that hanging around me just to "score points" does not work in this house. Sure, dogs do that alot too, probably more frequent than cats, but cats who don't care about their masters at all generally have that deficiency because their masters did not pay enough attention to them when they were young. Just because a cat does not automatically have a social habit, does not mean they cannot learn one! Cats and dogs are both highly intelligent, but developed their intelligence over different circumstances. Different ends of the spectrum, you could say.

Oh yeah, Mike, one of my cats does the same thing as your dog whenever I and my mom argue about anything. Looking at the body language and eyes, as well as his meow intonation, you could easily tell that he is concerned about something.